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wps
Well-PaidScientist


Registered: 09/22/07
Posts: 579
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selling tobacco to a minor
#7480589 - 10/03/07 11:31 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I have to go to court next week for selling tobacco to a minor.
it was a sting. They sent some underage kid in, and like a dumbass, I didn't check his ID. Then he left, and 5 minutes later a detective walked in and handed me a citation.
So I pleaded 'not guilty' and got a court date, trial by jury.
The law in my state says that you are supposed to card anyone that looks under 27. This kid, to me looked well into his 20's, he had a 5 oclock shadow and was wearing a college shirt. So my position is that he looked over 27 to me.
I don't see how they can prove otherwise.
the big reason I want to get out of this is because if convicted I have to pay a $500 fine. My girl says I need a lawyer. I don't want to pay for one, and think I should just represent myself.
any advice from those who have faced similar charges?
-------------------- "America touts itself as the land of the free, but the number one freedom that you and I have is the freedom to enter into a subservient role in the workplace. Once you exercise this freedom you've lost all control over what you do, what is produced, and how it is produced. And in the end, the product doesn't belong to you. The only way you can avoid bosses and jobs is if you don't care about making a living. Which leads to the second freedom: the freedom to starve." - Tom Morello
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alchino23
Titillating TheMind



Registered: 07/08/07
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Re: selling tobacco to a minor [Re: wps]
#7480685 - 10/03/07 11:53 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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any one who represents them self has a fool for a client
-------------------- Allan Kardec -(EN) The Spirits Book .PDF - - - - - - D-o-w-n-l-o-a-d- - - - - - - - http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/7293403/an/0/page/1
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makaveli8x8
Stranger


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Re: selling tobacco to a minor [Re: alchino23]
#7481028 - 10/03/07 01:06 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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i wouldn't bother with a lawyer, you'll end up paying the same...or more if you had just pleaded guilty.
just stick to your story and thats all that needs to be done. Ask them why they had him dress like a fuckin college student and not a teenager.
i mean was this kid actually underage, or were they just busting your balls for not asking for an id?
--------------------
  We were sent to hell for eternity Ø h® We play on earth to pass the time Over-population the root of all Evil-brings the Elites Closer to the gates.
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makaveli8x8
Stranger


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Re: selling tobacco to a minor [Re: makaveli8x8]
#7481032 - 10/03/07 01:07 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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you could also do a search for some kind of legal help forum and ask questions their
--------------------
  We were sent to hell for eternity Ø h® We play on earth to pass the time Over-population the root of all Evil-brings the Elites Closer to the gates.
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wilshire
free radical


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Re: selling tobacco to a minor [Re: wps]
#7482001 - 10/03/07 06:15 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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don't bother with a lawyer for this. it's not worth it for a $500 fine. is this even a misdemeanor?
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fastfred
Old Hand



Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,899
Loc: Dark side of the moon
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Re: selling tobacco to a minor [Re: wilshire]
#7482248 - 10/03/07 07:12 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I wouldn't sweat it. In my state the store gets all the fines.
$500 isn't worth it. You can't get a lawyer for that price, and if you factor in the missed work from court dates you'll be way behind.
That said, if you've got some spare time on your hands you might as well fight it yourself. I don't really see what the basis for your case would be though. You sold an underage tobacco, and that's illegal. If you want to argue that he looked 27 the jury is just going to look at him and decide if they think he's 27 or not. You'll probably loose.
-FF
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Krystal Klear
Stranger



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Re: selling tobacco to a minor [Re: wps]
#7483411 - 10/04/07 12:40 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
wps said: I have to go to court next week for selling tobacco to a minor.
it was a sting. They sent some underage kid in, and like a dumbass, I didn't check his ID. Then he left, and 5 minutes later a detective walked in and handed me a citation.
So I pleaded 'not guilty' and got a court date, trial by jury.
The law in my state says that you are supposed to card anyone that looks under 27. This kid, to me looked well into his 20's, he had a 5 oclock shadow and was wearing a college shirt. So my position is that he looked over 27 to me.
I don't see how they can prove otherwise.
the big reason I want to get out of this is because if convicted I have to pay a $500 fine. My girl says I need a lawyer. I don't want to pay for one, and think I should just represent myself.
any advice from those who have faced similar charges?
thats rough man, just think it coulda been worse, at least you didn''t lose your job.
-------------------- Nothing I say is meant to be taken seriously. -Krystal
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Krystal Klear
Stranger



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Re: selling tobacco to a minor [Re: wps]
#7483416 - 10/04/07 12:42 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Dude, the best thing to do is take a plea agreement.. If you take it to jsry trial and lose, which you will, they will bank your ass on this and any other crime you ever commit. Jury trials are very expensive fore the county form what I ehar.
By the way, what the fuck is an underage selling of tobacco charge these days lol? you would think its an unclassified misdameanor, you msut live in a small hick ass town like me where they have nothing better to do.
-------------------- Nothing I say is meant to be taken seriously. -Krystal
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alchino23
Titillating TheMind



Registered: 07/08/07
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just pay it and try fight but its not going to work
its thats guy job to go round stinging people
if people could get off with this guy
thay probably wouldn't used him in the 1st place
i don't want to sound like ye with Little faith
but your going to have to end up paying
cant you just write if off on your tax returns or something?
-------------------- Allan Kardec -(EN) The Spirits Book .PDF - - - - - - D-o-w-n-l-o-a-d- - - - - - - - http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/7293403/an/0/page/1
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usg543
◕‿◕


Registered: 02/11/07
Posts: 5,192
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Re: selling tobacco to a minor [Re: alchino23]
#7484512 - 10/04/07 11:20 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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i'd like to see an underage kid that looks 27 years old.
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rodfarva
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=====-----=-=-=-=-I



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Re: selling tobacco to a minor [Re: usg543]
#7485381 - 10/04/07 03:17 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
usg543 said: i'd like to see an underage kid that looks 27 years old.
First of all there are plenty of them, if you add clevage they get + 5 years, and a 6'2" 17 year old with a beard can look plenty old.
--------------------
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usg543
◕‿◕


Registered: 02/11/07
Posts: 5,192
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Re: selling tobacco to a minor [Re: rodfarva]
#7485399 - 10/04/07 03:23 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
rodfarva said:
Quote:
usg543 said: i'd like to see an underage kid that looks 27 years old.
First of all there are plenty of them, if you add clevage they get + 5 years, and a 6'2" 17 year old with a beard can look plenty old.
i'd like to see a 17 year old kid with clevage that is 6'2" with a beard
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



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Re: selling tobacco to a minor [Re: usg543]
#7485768 - 10/04/07 05:41 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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> i'd like to see a 17 year old kid with clevage that is 6'2" with a beard
I'll pass.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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wps
Well-PaidScientist


Registered: 09/22/07
Posts: 579
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Re: selling tobacco to a minor [Re: Seuss]
#7486347 - 10/04/07 08:18 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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to answer your questions:
its a class C Misdemeanor, which means its on the same level as a speeding ticket.
I don't think they will offer a plea bargain, because there is no lower charge to plea it down to.
I've got the day off anyway, and its a good excuse to see some friends of mine downtown (its a big city, and I don't get down there very often)
the law here is fucking stupid as hell. To card or not to card is at the clerk's discretion, but its technically illegal not to card someone who 'looks under 27'. But of course there is no universally defined standard of what a person under 27 should look like.
My boss got a ticket for the same thing (separate incident), and he fought it and won. But he had lawyer. Not that it meant anything, the cop who wrote the ticket didn't want to testify.
so I'm gonna hope that the cop doesn't show, and if he does, try to make the best case I can. my main arguments:
the kid looked 27+ to me, so it was within my right not to card him.
just because I am a bad judge of age doesn't mean I'm marketing tobacco to children
the cops obviously sent a 'ringer' in there by dressing the kid in a college shirt, and encouraging him not to shave for 2 weeks.
When I was employed at this store I regularly turned people down who didn't have ID, and or checked people's IDs that looked young and it turned out they WERE of age... So just because these cops got lucky and sent in a guy whose appearance was tailored to make him look over age and it worked... doesn't mean I should have to pay a fine.
and yes, there are teenagers out there that look to be in their late 20's. these are exactly the kinds of kids that the police recruit for these stings.
I think my chances of the cop not showing up are at least 50/50, I mean the guy is a detective, not a beat cop, and this is a pretty minor charge, so I'm hoping he won't want to fuck with it. If the cop does show... well at least I get to cross-examine him. That will be fun!
-------------------- "America touts itself as the land of the free, but the number one freedom that you and I have is the freedom to enter into a subservient role in the workplace. Once you exercise this freedom you've lost all control over what you do, what is produced, and how it is produced. And in the end, the product doesn't belong to you. The only way you can avoid bosses and jobs is if you don't care about making a living. Which leads to the second freedom: the freedom to starve." - Tom Morello
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wps
Well-PaidScientist


Registered: 09/22/07
Posts: 579
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Re: selling tobacco to a minor [Re: wps]
#7486353 - 10/04/07 08:24 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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also, they just changed the law so now clerks have to card if the customer looks 'under 40'.
so, I'm going to ask the cop why they changed that law, and imply it was because there is a fine line between 17 and 27, but the difference between 17 and 40 is obvious.
-------------------- "America touts itself as the land of the free, but the number one freedom that you and I have is the freedom to enter into a subservient role in the workplace. Once you exercise this freedom you've lost all control over what you do, what is produced, and how it is produced. And in the end, the product doesn't belong to you. The only way you can avoid bosses and jobs is if you don't care about making a living. Which leads to the second freedom: the freedom to starve." - Tom Morello
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TODAY
Battletoad


Registered: 09/25/03
Posts: 10,218
Loc: Metropolis City, USA
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Re: selling tobacco to a minor [Re: wps]
#7486490 - 10/04/07 09:07 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I think you've got a good chance if you make your case well. Fight those sons of bitches.
--------------------
ca'rouse (k-rouz) intr.v. To engage in boisterous, drunken merrymaking.
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Alion



Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 462
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Re: selling tobacco to a minor [Re: TODAY]
#7486516 - 10/04/07 09:15 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Ask them why tobacco kills people
but srsly...Good luck ive heard stings are really successful when it comes to jurys
Edited by Alion (10/04/07 10:14 PM)
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makaveli8x8
Stranger


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Re: selling tobacco to a minor [Re: Alion]
#7486748 - 10/04/07 10:33 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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yeah just tell them you card whoever looks underage to you, and he didn't look underage to you.
tell any jury or whoever, its not how old THEY think he is, its how old YOU thought he was. YOU thought he was 27, and based on the LAW, if YOU think he's 27 YOU don't have to card.
--------------------
  We were sent to hell for eternity Ø h® We play on earth to pass the time Over-population the root of all Evil-brings the Elites Closer to the gates.
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wps
Well-PaidScientist


Registered: 09/22/07
Posts: 579
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Re: selling tobacco to a minor [Re: makaveli8x8]
#7486874 - 10/04/07 11:20 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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yeah, I even found the exact law, so I can quote it word for word:
The use of a person younger than 18 years of age to act as a minor decoy to test compliance with this subchapter shall be conducted in a fashion that promotes fairness. A person may be enlisted by the comptroller or a local law enforcement agency to act as a minor decoy only if the following requirements are met:
...
(3) the minor decoy has an appearance that would cause a reasonably prudent seller of cigarettes or tobacco products to request identification and proof of age;
bam
my interpretation of this law is that they are not supposed to recruit informants that look old. Even though they obviously do. When they got my boss it was with a 6'5" black kid that looked 30.
there is no way they can cite any kind of state defined standard of what a "appearance that would cause a reasonably prudent seller of cigarettes or tobacco products to request identification and proof of age" is.
-------------------- "America touts itself as the land of the free, but the number one freedom that you and I have is the freedom to enter into a subservient role in the workplace. Once you exercise this freedom you've lost all control over what you do, what is produced, and how it is produced. And in the end, the product doesn't belong to you. The only way you can avoid bosses and jobs is if you don't care about making a living. Which leads to the second freedom: the freedom to starve." - Tom Morello
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makaveli8x8
Stranger


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Re: selling tobacco to a minor [Re: wps]
#7487026 - 10/05/07 12:29 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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well looks like your set, let us know how it turns out
--------------------
  We were sent to hell for eternity Ø h® We play on earth to pass the time Over-population the root of all Evil-brings the Elites Closer to the gates.
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AnotherDimension
Wanderer in the Land of the Lost

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Re: selling tobacco to a minor [Re: wps]
#7487062 - 10/05/07 12:46 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Here's the catch... assuming it goes before a jury trial, with the prosecution on board (in other words, they don't just not show up and forfeit the case).
See, they can bring this 'kid' in to testify in front of the jury. And at this time, they will make sure he is clean shaven, dressed up like a 12 year old, speaks like a 12 year old, and in any other way they can reverse his appearance from how it was on the day of the incidence.
They will do this because they believe in justice. </sarcasm>
My point being, I really hope you have security camera footage from the incidence you can use in your favor to show the jury his appearance on that day.
-------------------- Another Dimension --------------------------- "Come, and trip it as ye go, On the light fantastick toe."
Edited by AnotherDimension (10/05/07 12:50 AM)
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makaveli8x8
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all you need is to have the kid testify he cold blooded honest opinion on the matter, was he dressed up like his dad?
if he lies, make sure you bring a beard for him to wear
--------------------
  We were sent to hell for eternity Ø h® We play on earth to pass the time Over-population the root of all Evil-brings the Elites Closer to the gates.
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fastfred
Old Hand



Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,899
Loc: Dark side of the moon
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Good luck fighting it. It looks like you have a chance.
The only thing I woudl worry about is the fact that the kid is going to show up clean shaven with high school type clothes on and the jury might not buy it. Then again if you make a good case for yourself you probably have a decent chance of winning or them dropping it before trial.
-FF
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alchino23
Titillating TheMind



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Re: selling tobacco to a minor [Re: makaveli8x8]
#7487321 - 10/05/07 02:50 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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sorry but I dont meen to sound a Drag but isnt there court fees if you loose?
-------------------- Allan Kardec -(EN) The Spirits Book .PDF - - - - - - D-o-w-n-l-o-a-d- - - - - - - - http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/7293403/an/0/page/1
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wps
Well-PaidScientist


Registered: 09/22/07
Posts: 579
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Re: selling tobacco to a minor [Re: alchino23]
#7487890 - 10/05/07 10:13 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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yes but there is also judicial discretion for the fine.
So if I just pay the fine without going to court, I have to pay the full amount.
but if a judge hands me the fine in court, it will probably be much less.
I know this because there was actually some research done about judicial predisposition in my state, and for my offense, 60% of judges would give a fine of less than $250, even though the max fine is $500.
besides, court costs are pretty cheap, like 50 bucks. They get one jury to hear a whole day's cases.
-------------------- "America touts itself as the land of the free, but the number one freedom that you and I have is the freedom to enter into a subservient role in the workplace. Once you exercise this freedom you've lost all control over what you do, what is produced, and how it is produced. And in the end, the product doesn't belong to you. The only way you can avoid bosses and jobs is if you don't care about making a living. Which leads to the second freedom: the freedom to starve." - Tom Morello
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AgingHippy
Flwr Pwr



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Re: selling tobacco to a minor [Re: wps]
#7507575 - 10/11/07 12:15 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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any update?
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wps
Well-PaidScientist


Registered: 09/22/07
Posts: 579
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Re: selling tobacco to a minor [Re: AgingHippy]
#7513792 - 10/13/07 10:02 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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yeah I went to court really hoping the cop wouldn't show up.
he did, unfortunately.
I was pretty prepared to argue my case, but still a little nervous about whether it would fly with the jury.
So when the prosecutor offered me a plea bargain, I took it. $150, deferred so its not on my record.
All in all I think I did the smart thing. $150 is way better than the $500 I would have had to pay if I were convicted, or if I had simply mailed the fine in and not went to court. The act of going to court instead of admitting guilt and paying the whole fine definitely was worth it.
I kinda feel bad about not just fighting the whole case though. I had a pretty good defense prepared. I feel somewhat confident I could have walked, but it just wasn't worth the risk of losing.
-------------------- "America touts itself as the land of the free, but the number one freedom that you and I have is the freedom to enter into a subservient role in the workplace. Once you exercise this freedom you've lost all control over what you do, what is produced, and how it is produced. And in the end, the product doesn't belong to you. The only way you can avoid bosses and jobs is if you don't care about making a living. Which leads to the second freedom: the freedom to starve." - Tom Morello
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makaveli8x8
Stranger


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Re: selling tobacco to a minor [Re: wps]
#7513801 - 10/13/07 10:05 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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yep you bent over and let the gov take advantage of another person. they will continue to pull this crap with other people knowin nobody has the balls to stand up
--------------------
  We were sent to hell for eternity Ø h® We play on earth to pass the time Over-population the root of all Evil-brings the Elites Closer to the gates.
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wps
Well-PaidScientist


Registered: 09/22/07
Posts: 579
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Re: selling tobacco to a minor [Re: makaveli8x8]
#7513812 - 10/13/07 10:08 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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hey, I said it was the smart thing to do, not the brave one 
I don't give a fuck. I don't work at a job where I sell cigarettes anymore; I have a way better job now.
-------------------- "America touts itself as the land of the free, but the number one freedom that you and I have is the freedom to enter into a subservient role in the workplace. Once you exercise this freedom you've lost all control over what you do, what is produced, and how it is produced. And in the end, the product doesn't belong to you. The only way you can avoid bosses and jobs is if you don't care about making a living. Which leads to the second freedom: the freedom to starve." - Tom Morello
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PinniesPlox
Deep in the bushes...



Registered: 09/05/07
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Re: selling tobacco to a minor [Re: wps]
#7513905 - 10/13/07 10:34 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Nice job, well at least it didn't turn your pockets out
-------------------- I've got bigger blunts to smoke...
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JacquesCousteau
Being.



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Re: selling tobacco to a minor [Re: wps]
#7514697 - 10/14/07 03:39 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I think you made a very wise choice.
A sure bet at 150 is way better than a gamble on 500.
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