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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story



Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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O Canada! *DELETED*
#7480138 - 10/03/07 09:04 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Post deleted by LunarEclipseReason for deletion: spp
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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wortiesbo



Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 866
Loc: new vegas
Last seen: 6 years, 9 days
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i wonder what the peso is going to do next? i read that they are trying to make the peso, dollar, and the canadian dollar worth around the same so they can implement the amero. interesting times...
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SirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis



Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 7,459
Loc: Harmless (Mostly)
Last seen: 22 minutes, 34 seconds
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Even though your currency is worth more......your economy as a whole is no where near the size, or influence of the United States of America.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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JonnyOnTheSpot
Sober Surfer


Registered: 01/27/02
Posts: 11,527
Loc: North Carolina
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the canadian portion of epcot center was one of the most traumatizingly boring events of my young life. it's just this round panoramic movie theater that shows twenty minutes of helicopter footage flying over trees while this horrible queered up 80's version of "O Canada" blares through the speakers over and over again. it's an unbearable eternity of horrible when you're nine and space mountain is right across the park.
so no, i will not sing O Canada with you! in fact, fuck that song!
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DieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Good luck keeping your blue collar jobs. Having a strong dollar is a mixed blessing.
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BrAiN
Art Fag

Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 6,875
Loc: Chocolate City
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
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(sings)
Oh Canada.. AbOOT aBOOT abOOoooooOOooT We will pretend we're french and the pretend noOooOt to speak english in MontrEEEAAAAAL Just because our Couuntry is boring and the best we can OffFer is BrYYYYYAn Adams and Tom gREEEEEn
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BrAiN
Art Fag

Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 6,875
Loc: Chocolate City
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
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Re: O Canada! [Re: BrAiN]
#7484565 - 10/04/07 11:36 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Although I gotta admit.. there are some descent acts from Canada...
Junior Boys Skinny Puppy
and uhh..
ummm...
hmmmm
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DieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: O Canada! [Re: BrAiN]
#7485409 - 10/04/07 03:27 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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The Guess Who Niel Young
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BrAiN
Art Fag

Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 6,875
Loc: Chocolate City
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
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Who's the Guess Who?
ok on one side we have Junior Boys Skinny Puppy Neil Young
on the other side we have Bryan Adams Celine Dion
So far the good side is winning
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DieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: O Canada! [Re: BrAiN]
#7486091 - 10/04/07 07:07 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
BrAiN said: Who's the Guess Who?
kids...
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Quote:
DieCommie said: The Guess Who Niel Young
RUSH
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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BrAiN
Art Fag

Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 6,875
Loc: Chocolate City
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
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Quote:
gettinjiggywithit said:
Quote:
DieCommie said: The Guess Who Niel Young
RUSH
Ewww!!!
Mark RUSH as one AGAINST canada. Right next to celine dion.
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story



Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Re: O Canada! *DELETED* [Re: DieCommie]
#7491145 - 10/06/07 12:02 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Post deleted by LunarEclipseReason for deletion: guesswho
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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BrAiN
Art Fag

Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 6,875
Loc: Chocolate City
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
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That's the Guess Who? So they were a one hit wonder huh?
And they were Canadian? Singing about American women? hah
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Re: O Canada! [Re: BrAiN]
#7491488 - 10/06/07 01:46 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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These Eyes. No Time. Laughing. Undun. Some others. One hit? No, they were fairly big in the early seventies. Good stuff.
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Smackshadow
It's Time for Wild Speculation


Registered: 09/27/05
Posts: 575
Last seen: 19 days, 10 hours
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I noticed that there haven't been a lot of Canadian quarters floating around these parts any more. Guess I know why now. It must be a plot to send our quarters to Canada.
-------------------- The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all. ~H. L. Mencken~
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a_guy_named_ai
Stranger

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 767
Last seen: 15 years, 7 months
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Will the u.s. dollar continue to fall I wonder?
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Thor
Anti-Theist OVERLORD



Registered: 08/12/98
Posts: 10,017
Loc: Iceland
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Quote:
SirTripAlot said: Even though your currency is worth more......your economy as a whole is no where near the size, or influence of the United States of America.
OMG we can beat you up easy!
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BrAiN
Art Fag

Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 6,875
Loc: Chocolate City
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
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Re: O Canada! [Re: Thor]
#7507911 - 10/11/07 06:38 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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We shall settle this on the battlefield of Command an Conquer 3 by EA games!
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hummermania00
Strange Son of aBitch



Registered: 04/07/07
Posts: 327
Last seen: 14 years, 4 months
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Quote:
DieCommie said: Good luck keeping your blue collar jobs. Having a strong dollar is a mixed blessing.
You are off track about the mixed blessing. As a Canadian, I see no blessing at all. I fail to understand all the hurrah about US / Canada dollar parity. (I suspect it is a misguided sense of nationalistic pride, not at all dissimilar to that which is expressed by Americans in subsequent posts of this thread.) Also, the Canadian economy is by no means any great well oiled machine. The par dollar is really only a function of the US money supply, coupled with the bad debt problem, affecting confidence in the ability to repay. This is something virtually all of the Canadian investment community avoided because the risk factors do not fit the relative conservative Canadian mindset on investment. The negative effects to Canada far outweigh any perceived benefit.
For example: All our exports are worth about 30% less than they were 3 years ago. No manufacturers can realize that amount in efficiency gains, to maintain the margins that were realized prior to parity. Therefore, business will shut down, the economy will slip.
Canadian shoppers will (are) run (ning) to the US for purchases because the same item in the same chain of stores costs 30% more in Canada even though the dollar is at par. Canadian retailers are not smart enough to realize they are screwing their customers.
Net result is that this economy will slip, the US may or may not gain; that remains the topic of much debate and speculation throughout the world.
-------------------- You are a fortunate person indeed, if you can begin each day accepting the fact that during that day there will be ups and downs, good breaks and bad ones, disappointments, surprises, and unexpected turns of events. When you have solved all the mysteries of life you long for death, for it is but another mystery of life.
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LucidDream
Hungry BlueFiend



Registered: 05/09/03
Posts: 1,496
Loc: Planet of the Stupid Peop...
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Our country reeks of trees Our yaks are really large And they smell like rotting beef carcasses And we have to clean-up after them And our saddle sores are the best We proudly wear women's clothing And searing sand blows up our skirts
REN & STIMPY: And buzzards, they soar overhead And poisonous snakes devour us whole Our bones will bleach in the sun.
STIMPY: That's it.
REN & STIMPY: And we will probably go to **** And that is our great reward For being the-uh-roy-yal Canadian kilted yaksmen
STIMPY: Come on everybody
Our country reeks of trees Our yaks are really large And they smell like rotting beef carcasses And we have to clean-up after them And out saddle sores are the best We proudly wear women's clothing And searing sand blows up our skirts And buzzards, they soar overhead And poisonous snakes devour us whole Our bones will bleach in the sun And we will probably go to **** And that is our great reward For being the-uh-roy-yal Candian kilted yaksmen
-------------------- Sarcasm just one of my many talents.
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BrAiN
Art Fag

Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 6,875
Loc: Chocolate City
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
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REN:
My opera records!!! GOOBERED IN BUBBLE GUM!
My dinosaur droppings!! COLORED ON LIKE EASTER EGGS!
My COLLECTION OF RARE, INCURABLE DISEASES!! VIOLATED!!!
AHHHH!!!!
.......
Happy Happy Joy Joy
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gluke bastid
Stinky Bum



Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 3,322
Loc: Charm City
Last seen: 5 years, 3 months
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Re: O Canada! [Re: BrAiN]
#7508591 - 10/11/07 11:35 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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RUSH, Ren & Stimpy... PA&L needs more threads like this
Oh yeah let's not forget about Joni Mitchell, she be from Toronto.
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Society in every form is a blessing, but government at its best is but a necessary evil - Thomas Paine
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Phred
Fred's son


Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 18 days
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Joni Mitchell's home town is Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, not Toronto. She was born in Fort MacLeod, Alberta, though.
Saskatoon is also home to the fantastic band "Wide Mouth Mason". If you've never listened to them you should. Their first album is nearly flawless.
Phred
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2FiNiTe
ConsideratlyKilling Me



Registered: 06/12/06
Posts: 1,635
Loc: New England
Last seen: 7 years, 4 months
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Re: O Canada! [Re: Phred]
#7509585 - 10/11/07 04:31 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Canada 
Blame Canada
-------------------- "Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants. We know more about war that we know about peace, more about killing that we know about living." General Omar N. Bradley
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Luddite
I watch Fox News


Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 2,946
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Quote:
hummermania00 said:
Quote:
DieCommie said: Good luck keeping your blue collar jobs. Having a strong dollar is a mixed blessing.
You are off track about the mixed blessing. As a Canadian, I see no blessing at all. I fail to understand all the hurrah about US / Canada dollar parity. (I suspect it is a misguided sense of nationalistic pride, not at all dissimilar to that which is expressed by Americans in subsequent posts of this thread.) Also, the Canadian economy is by no means any great well oiled machine. The par dollar is really only a function of the US money supply, coupled with the bad debt problem, affecting confidence in the ability to repay. This is something virtually all of the Canadian investment community avoided because the risk factors do not fit the relative conservative Canadian mindset on investment. The negative effects to Canada far outweigh any perceived benefit.
For example: All our exports are worth about 30% less than they were 3 years ago. No manufacturers can realize that amount in efficiency gains, to maintain the margins that were realized prior to parity. Therefore, business will shut down, the economy will slip.
Canadian shoppers will (are) run (ning) to the US for purchases because the same item in the same chain of stores costs 30% more in Canada even though the dollar is at par. Canadian retailers are not smart enough to realize they are screwing their customers.
Net result is that this economy will slip, the US may or may not gain; that remains the topic of much debate and speculation throughout the world.
The dividends I get from Canadian oil and gas trusts have gone up thanks to the falling US dollar. Canadians work harder and I get more money from them at the same time.
Its funny how the clueless foreign juvenile delinquents always think a falling US dollar is automatically a bad thing.
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story



Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Re: O Canada! *DELETED* [Re: Luddite]
#7512678 - 10/13/07 04:51 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Post deleted by LunarEclipseReason for deletion: esspeepee
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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hummermania00
Strange Son of aBitch



Registered: 04/07/07
Posts: 327
Last seen: 14 years, 4 months
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Quote:
LunarEclipse said:
Quote:
The par dollar is really only a function of the US money supply, coupled with the bad debt problem, affecting confidence in the ability to repay.
Another reason the Canadian dollar keeps getting stronger relative to the U.S. dollar is because Canada has tremendous natural resources. Oil, timber, water, it's like money in the bank.
The question is when will the "bigger bank" decide that those resources would look nice on the their balance sheet (and when they can get away with it). The more the U.S. dollar drops against the Canadian dollar the more likely a "merger" with Canada and the U.S. (and Mexico) becomes. www.spp.gov
While at some point in the future a CA-US-MX amalgamation may become a necessity/reality, I don't see any movement here for many years. The link you provided to the "agreement" actually contains statements that contradict your assertion, particularly in the myths/truths section.
Personally, I believe the US dollar will rise again over the next 2 years. It would shift very quickly with a pull out of US forces from the Middle East. It should also turn around some what as the primarys end and the election nears - depending on who is considered the frontrunner - and depending on who wins the election. But this is just my opinion.
-------------------- You are a fortunate person indeed, if you can begin each day accepting the fact that during that day there will be ups and downs, good breaks and bad ones, disappointments, surprises, and unexpected turns of events. When you have solved all the mysteries of life you long for death, for it is but another mystery of life.
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psilomonkey
Twisted brainwrong of a oneoff man mental


Registered: 08/08/03
Posts: 812
Loc: Airstrip One
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Quote:
hummermania00 said:
Canadian shoppers will (are) run (ning) to the US for purchases because the same item in the same chain of stores costs 30% more in Canada even though the dollar is at par. Canadian retailers are not smart enough to realize they are screwing their customers.
Net result is that this economy will slip, the US may or may not gain; that remains the topic of much debate and speculation throughout the world.
Well I booked my flight nice and cheap a while back, doing my Christmas shopping in New York. Planning a holiday in the new year in Florida, and ordered a really nice Tenecor aquarium to be shipped over from Phoenix. So Uncle Sam is doing OK out of this Limey 
-- Politicians are like nappies. Both should be changed regularly, and for the same reason.
Edited by psilomonkey (10/14/07 07:36 AM)
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Welcome Limey, we love doing business with you. Enjoy NY.
--------------------
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story



Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Post deleted by LunarEclipseReason for deletion: tdot
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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PsychedelicPhish
Mushroomvillager



Registered: 10/14/07
Posts: 54
Loc: Coca field
Last seen: 16 years, 2 months
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Re: O Canada! [Re: Thor]
#7515490 - 10/14/07 11:49 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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YEAH!!! with all the money are government has we can afford to blow the shit out of any country, since we cant win in iraq were gonna achieve a more accomplish able goal
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Quote:
PsychedelicPhish said: YEAH!!! with all the money are government has we can afford to blow the shit out of any country, since we cant win in iraq were gonna achieve a more accomplish able goal
Like teeching spilling and gramer in are skools.
--------------------
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Luddite
I watch Fox News


Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 2,946
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I saw the Guess Who on PBS recently. They said they liked PBS a lot and had watched it most of their lives even if the show was made in the US. Of course, they didn't bring up any anti-American bigotry. Their brains aren't as fried as some of the anti-Americans here.
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story



Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Re: O Canada! *DELETED* [Re: Luddite]
#7518817 - 10/15/07 09:45 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Post deleted by LunarEclipseReason for deletion: pbs
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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wps
Well-PaidScientist


Registered: 09/22/07
Posts: 579
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damn
I remember when I was a kid
you went to buy a comic book and the price was in the corner, and it said:
US: $1.00 Can: $1.25
Its hard to imagine a world where the American price could be higher. How the mighty have fallen.
-------------------- "America touts itself as the land of the free, but the number one freedom that you and I have is the freedom to enter into a subservient role in the workplace. Once you exercise this freedom you've lost all control over what you do, what is produced, and how it is produced. And in the end, the product doesn't belong to you. The only way you can avoid bosses and jobs is if you don't care about making a living. Which leads to the second freedom: the freedom to starve." - Tom Morello
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hummermania00
Strange Son of aBitch



Registered: 04/07/07
Posts: 327
Last seen: 14 years, 4 months
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Quote:
LunarEclipse said:
Quote:
Personally, I believe the US dollar will rise again over the next 2 years. It would shift very quickly with a pull out of US forces from the Middle East. It should also turn around some what as the primarys end and the election nears - depending on who is considered the frontrunner - and depending on who wins the election. But this is just my opinion.
The "pull out" of US forces from the Middle East over the next 2 years seems highly unlikely. As to the next president, if it is a republican the pullout over the following four years also seems highly unlikely. If it is a leading democrat, it also seems highly unlikely and they even admitted to this at the recent debate.
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20070927/D8RTOBOG0.html
Dems Can't Make Guarantee on Iraq Troops Sep 27, 6:26 AM (ET) By BETH FOUHY
HANOVER, N.H. (AP) - The leading Democratic White House hopefuls conceded Wednesday night they cannot guarantee to pull all U.S. combat troops from Iraq by the end of the next presidential term in 2013.
"I think it's hard to project four years from now," said Sen. Barack Obama of Illinois in the opening moments of a campaign debate in the nation's first primary state.
"It is very difficult to know what we're going to be inheriting," added Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York.
"I cannot make that commitment," said former Sen. John Edwards of North Carolina.
Sensing an opening, Sen. Christopher Dodd of Connecticut and New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson provided the assurances the others would not.
"I'll get the job done," said Dodd, while Richardson said he would make sure the troops were home by the end of his first year in office.
(middle portion deleted for space considerations)
With the primary season approaching, all eight have vied with increasing intensity for the support of anti-war voters likely to provide money and organizing muscle as the campaign progresses.
Edwards said his position on Iraq was different from Obama and Clinton, adding he would "immediately drawn down 40,000 to 50,000 troops." That's roughly half the 100,000 that Gen. David Petraeus, the top U.S. commander in Iraq, has indicated could be stationed there when President Bush's term ends in January 2009.
Edwards sought to draw a distinction between his position and Clinton's, saying she had said recently she wants to continue combat missions in Iraq.
"I do not want to continue combat missions in Iraq," he said.
Clinton responded quickly, saying Edwards had misstated her position. She said she favors the continued deployment of counterterrorism troops, not forces to engage in the type of combat now under way.
Asked whether they were prepared to use force to prevent Iran from becoming a nuclear power, several of the hopefuls sidestepped. Instead, they said, all diplomacy must be exhausted in the effort.
Moderator Tim Russert of NBC News asked about Republican presidential hopeful Rudy Giuliani's pledge to set back Iran by eight to 10 years if it tries to gain nuclear standing.
Biden flashed anger at the mention of the former New York mayor. "Rudy Giuliani doesn't know what the heck he's talking about," said Delaware senator, who is chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.
"He's the most uninformed person on foreign policy that's now running for president."
The debate unfolded in the state that has held the first presidential primary in every campaign for generations.
The contest is tentatively scheduled for Jan. 22, but that is expected to change as other states maneuver for early voting position in the campaign calendar.
The debate was broadcast on MSNBC, New Hampshire Public Radio and New England Cable News.
You also state that you think the U.S. dollar will rise depending on who wins the election but you didn't elaborate which party or cantidate will make the difference.
Well, first off, I expressed an opinion that the US dollar would rise very quickly with a pull out of forces from Iraq. Whether this is reality, or likely, or even remotely possible I don't know. I'm saying if it did happen now, the dollar would increase in value.
Also, at this point the winner and that effect on the financial markets (dollar included) is entirely speculative. People will express confidence in the financial sector based on financial guru projections and media spin. it would have nothing to do with what or who I think about the US election.
-------------------- You are a fortunate person indeed, if you can begin each day accepting the fact that during that day there will be ups and downs, good breaks and bad ones, disappointments, surprises, and unexpected turns of events. When you have solved all the mysteries of life you long for death, for it is but another mystery of life.
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story



Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Post deleted by LunarEclipseReason for deletion: nafta
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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hummermania00
Strange Son of aBitch



Registered: 04/07/07
Posts: 327
Last seen: 14 years, 4 months
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Quote:
LunarEclipse said:
Quote:
Well, first off, I expressed an opinion that the US dollar would rise very quickly with a pull out of forces from Iraq. Whether this is reality, or likely, or even remotely possible I don't know. I'm saying if it did happen now, the dollar would increase in value.
Also, at this point the winner and that effect on the financial markets (dollar included) is entirely speculative. People will express confidence in the financial sector based on financial guru projections and media spin. it would have nothing to do with what or who I think about the US election.
As to Iraq there will NEVER be an entire pullout of US troops there IMO so the effect on the dollar from a troop pullout is a moot point.
The winner of the presidency will affect the value of the dollar to the extent that they can get the US budget and trade deficit under control without starting a trade war or another real war.
It seems to me the financial markets have never been more speculative and leveraged. Tons of worthless mortgage paper packaged in with other commercial paper making valuation impossible (like financial hamburger with E-coli contaminations) Trillions and trillions in derivatives on big banks books creating huge leverage and resultant increase in potential for and larger size of failures. The smart MBAs designing the hedging programs are turning out to not be perfect.
You raise a good point about the spin of financial gurus such as Alan Greenspan and media spin from the likes of Jim Cramer having an effect on people and markets. Buy buy buy. Cults never end well...
Yes, you are certainly bang on with the (potentially) worthless paper. One day someone will need to be paid, and then the proverbial "shit will hit the fan". What makes the entire US situation a really tenuous juggling act is the amount of paper held by the rest of the world, and the potential demand for redemption on this paper. This is why gold is staying so high. Countries like China, Russia, and Argentina (and many more)ref: (http://news.goldseek.com/GoldSeek/1164988920.php) are buying gold at record levels to assure themselves of some type of backup should this paper system collapse because most countries let the gold reserve ratio decline. This has all the characteristics of heading toward another 1929. http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9C0DE5DE103AE033A25755C2A9679C946195D6CF Really interesting to note how (war) neutral countries do so well in wartime.
-------------------- You are a fortunate person indeed, if you can begin each day accepting the fact that during that day there will be ups and downs, good breaks and bad ones, disappointments, surprises, and unexpected turns of events. When you have solved all the mysteries of life you long for death, for it is but another mystery of life.
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Luddite
I watch Fox News


Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 2,946
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This may help explain what's going on.
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story



Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Re: O Canada! *DELETED* [Re: Luddite]
#7650336 - 11/18/07 09:17 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Post deleted by LunarEclipseReason for deletion: nau
Edited by LunarEclipse (11/18/07 09:22 AM)
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MYSTIQUE
Say Hi to the elves for me.




Registered: 04/28/07
Posts: 1,764
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 5 years, 4 months
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Settle down Mexico toucher's lol just playing
-------------------- Dont know what the fuck I just said? READ THIS http://www.shroomery.org/5122/The-Shroomery-Mushroom-Glossary I ain't a hippy but I'm covered in dirt Sippin lots of mushroom tea in a tye-dye shirt Chasin' the Grateful Dead, no shoes on my feet Beggin' in the parking lot for something to eat, DO NOT USE FIRE IN YOUR GLOVE BOX!!!!!!!
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Luddite
I watch Fox News


Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 2,946
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Re: O Canada! [Re: MYSTIQUE]
#7656012 - 11/19/07 05:34 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Here's a dose of reality for the blame shifters.
Arms trade: Our dirty secret 'The public would be shocked if they knew' Military industry brings in cash despite myths
LYNDA HURST FEATURE WRITER
One of the most treasured of Canadians' beliefs is that theirs is a pacifist nation whose role is of peacekeeper, not warmonger.
When circumstances - Kosovo, Afghanistan, the looming war in Iraq - dictate, Canada will play its part. But its preference is to preserve the peace after the smoke clears.
Or so the government maintains and most Canadians willingly accept.
But is it a self-deluding myth? Do we espouse peace while reaping the benefits of conflict?
Consider: In 2001, Canada exported $592-million worth of military goods to the rest of the world, with firearm sales alone jumping to $26 million from $3.5 million the year before.
The number doesn't include military exports to Canada's biggest foreign customer by far, the United States.
That figure is not tabulated by Ottawa, but analysts estimate it at 65 per cent of total sales, or at least $1.5 billion a year, probably more.
even with that excluded, Canada was in the lower half of the world's top 10 military suppliers in 2001, albeit nowhere near the biggest, multi-billion-dollar suppliers, the U.S. and Russia.
"The public would be shocked if they knew how significantly Canada is involved in the international arms trade," says Ken Epps of Project Ploughshares, the peace research centre.
"But most people are unaware of it."
Making money out of arms while touting a peacekeeper stance means Canada "is playing both sides of the fence," he says. "There is a real contradiction."
In 2001, total arms deliveries in the world amounted to $21 billion (U.S.), with two-thirds going to developing nations, many driven by internal strife or government oppression. Several were Canada's customers. That appalls anti-arms activists.
"It is morally reprehensible to supply military equipment to governments which violate human rights," says Richard Sanders, co-ordinator of the Coalition to Oppose the Arms Trade.
Canada's participation in the munitions trade may be no secret, he adds, but it comes under little public scrutiny.
"It's a big industry with a low profile because Ottawa knows Canadians like the image of peacemaker."
The Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade has published an annual report on military exports since 1990, but with the American market left out, the biggest piece of the picture is missing. The report is tabled in Parliament with little discussion or fanfare. As a result, say critics, the government's consistent but misleading claim the country accounts for only 1 per cent of world arms sales goes
unchallenged.
Moreover, the reports often contain disturbing discrepancies and omissions, says Sanders: "They cover up more than they reveal."
He cites, as an example, Industry Canada's database, which states Canadian firms have military "export experience" to many countries never listed in any department report; among them, Congo, el Salvador and Iran.
The recently released accounting for 2001 lists exports to 66 countries in all and states firmly that firearms sales were restricted to the 15 members of the international Automatic Firearms Country Control List. Yet, small arms are reported as having been sold to several non-members, including Guatemala, Turkey, Argentina and Zimbabwe, all of which have been accused of abuses by human-rights groups.
It's not the report's only discrepancy. On one list, China is reported to have bought $242,000 in exports, but on a second list detailing what exactly was sold, the reported figure is only $70,000.
While the defence industry counters that Canada's military exports are overwhelmingly support-role in nature, not directly offensive, it's a distinction without a difference to Sanders: "Troops have to be transported to battlefields.
Bombs are guided by computers. All industry equipment is part of a system that ultimately kills people."
In any given year, there are about 650 companies involved in the defence industry, employing some 65,000 workers. Most Canadian firms specialize in high-tech components and computerized
subsystems, in radar, communications, surveillance and monitoring. But others make and export armoured vehicles and assault rifles.
Two of the biggest firms, General Motors Defense Canada and General Dynamics Canada, are subsidiaries of mammoth parent companies in the U.S. The largest purely Canadian contractor is Montreal's Bombardier Inc., which supplies aircraft and
pilot training to NATO and other major nations.
In overseeing the defence industry, the foreign affairs department is in a contradictory position, critics say, both controlling foreign sales and promoting them.
Ottawa requires contractors to get permits for all specific military goods and technology and for dual-use materials that could be militarized. But it also sponsors regular industry trade missions to targeted customers (the next is to Japan) and funds exhibition booths at arms fairs around the world.
In addition to Foreign Affairs, the Canadian Commercial Corp., which reports to Industry Canada, keeps defence contractors posted on upcoming munitions markets, and often acts as the seller or guarantor on foreign military deals. The corporation is
currently offering advice on how to bid for a piece of the largest procurement contract in history, Washington's $200 billion (U.S.) Joint Strike Fighter program, which will develop the next generation of high-tech combat aircraft.
But the public will never know how much of a piece Canadian firms end up winning because the data won't be reported. The reason for that is simple, not sinister, according to Foreign Affairs spokesperson Pierre Bechard. Canada and the U.S. have had a shared defence production agreement since World War II, which doesn't require export permits between the two.
"Therefore there is no mechanism to capture the statistics," he says.
"They could do it if they wanted to," argues Ken Epps, "simply by requiring the companies to report sales to them."
The reports never reveal "commercially sensitive details" (in other words, the names of contractors), an omission Project Ploughshares tries to remedy by digging through
annual reports. In 2001, for the fifth year in a row, General Motors Defense Canada in London, Ont., held top spot. Epps estimates the top four companies exceeded $2.2 billion in overall sales. But that is business. What alarms activists more is how
the government often appears to contravene its own humanitarian guidelines in exporting to the Third World.
Department policy states that exports are subject to "close controls to ensure they are consistent with Canadian values and are not diverted to ends that would ... have a destabilizing effect on both regional security and global order."
More precisely, that means strict export controls are applied to countries "involved in or under imminent threat of hostilities" or those with a "persistent record" of serious human-rights violations.
Why then, critics ask, were exports of military components and/or firearms approved in 2001 for Colombia, Indonesia, the Philippines, Guatemala and Turkey - all of them in one or both of those situations?
The department says "extensive consultations" are held whenever there are concerns about a customer country and, according to Bechard, all military exports in 2001 were "evaluated against, and deemed to be compatible with, our criteria."
Epps counters that those discussions are, in fact, infrequent and held behind closed doors. The Area Control List, effectively the "banned" list, has for years contained only Angola, which is shortly to be removed from it, and Myanmar (Burma). The list should be "much more reflective of what's going on in the real world. Assessments should be done in collaboration with monitoring agencies, and the decisions not be made subject to economic pressures."
Problem is, foreign affairs and international trade are governed by the same department: "One side is stressing human rights and security, the other wants to expand global trade, and thinks this industry should be expanded. People go in opposite directions. They're at loggerheads."
And the upshot is a military-export control system that is humanitarian on paper, but flawed in application, says Epps.
"Ottawa has to recognize that these exports are unlike any other. They are unique and require unique controls."
Some think that's exactly what Canada has. A report last year by the U.S. Centre for International Trade and Security praised it for developing the "most comprehensive system of controlled-goods registration in the world," calling it "among the best in terms of transparency."
The report lauds former foreign affairs minister Lloyd Axworthy for initiating stronger controls after the Gulf War and for attempting more rigorous checks of internal conflicts and human-rights abuses among potential customers. But mainly it credits Washington. Its 1999 decision to drop a special exemption that allowed Canadian companies to import U.S. military goods and technology without permits led to tighter controls, the centre claims.
Among other issues at that time, the U.S. was concerned about the Canadian transfer of classified technology to China and claimed many exports were winding up in unacceptable "end-user" countries, including Iran. Ottawa vehemently denied the charges.
Today, however, any Canadian military product containing more than 5 per cent American technology - night-vision goggles, for example, with an American chip - must apply for U.S. export approval, as well as a Canadian permit.
That means Canada's defence contractors are among the most controlled in the world, says Norbert Cyr, spokesperson for the Canadian Defence Industries Association (CDIA).
Cyr is also communications vice-president of Oerlikon Contraves in Montreal, which makes air-defence short-range missile systems and communications systems. His company, he says, has had visits from foreign affairs officials "to check on defence material that could be used against civilians."
Canada requires end-user certificates from receiving countries and, if the product is to be sold on, a certificate from the final recipient. Not that this is always possible.
"There's not much we can do," he says, "if we sold machine guns, say, to Mexico 20 years ago and Mexico later sold them on to Colombia."
Cyr has no idea why, in 2001, Canada permitted exports to several countries named by Amnesty International and other abuse-monitoring agencies as human-rights violators: "I can't answer why anything was sold to a place like Zimbabwe," he says. "That's not our job."
CDIA releases an industry-wide revenue report only every two years and hasn't yet completed 2001.
When it does, it will show several huge contracts Cyr says will have follow-on business for years. Among them:
# Calgary's Computing Devices of Canada, which beat two giant international defence contractors to supply the British army with 48,000 digital radios and 30,000 computers over three years, a $4-billion contract.
# General Motors Defense Canada - bought for $1.1 billion (U.S.) in December by General Dynamics Inc. - which was awarded a six-year, $4-billion contract to make Stryker light-armoured vehicles for the U.S. military. Assembly line workers are on
overtime because, it's speculated, the Strykers will be needed in Iraq.
"It's either feast or famine with military contracts," says Cyr, "therefore, many firms now do commercial work as well." And because international arms suppliers are highly competitive, dominated by defence giants and vulnerable to takeovers, "there are many more partnerships happening in the Canadian industry. Companies are teaming up."
With the world geared up for what's likely to be years on end of terrorism-ignited conflict, the outlook for the industry is undeniably strong. Good news for business, but a red flag to Canadian peace activists who condemn the hypocrisy.
No country is fully open on the arms trade, but few, they say, declare their humanitarian ideals as loudly as Canada.
"And it's a myth," says Richard Sanders, "a dangerous myth."
Additional articles by Lynda Hurst
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Content...d=1045047784313
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