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explorer ofmetap ![]() Registered: 09/19/07 Posts: 201 Loc: carrollton, tx Last seen: 13 years, 10 months |
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Quote: No, I think he was saying that people make their own choices, but the reason for their choices is indeterminate. Actually, now I'm not sure what he's saying... -------------------- "I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou ![]() "To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald
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HarmReductionist Registered: 04/25/07 Posts: 148 Loc: Hamilton, New Ze Last seen: 10 years, 7 months |
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Quote: Wrong. Behavioural Psychology doesn't ignore these, we call them private events (as opposed to public), we just tend to ignore them. And you can see why, if you're trying to treat an addict and they say to you they're gonna stop, or even if you are trying to psychoanalyse them or something to try see inside them, the fact of the matter is we are trying to stop them using a drug. We are trying to stop a behaviour and from a common sense point of view, the only proof we have of an effective behaviour change is if the addict actually stops taking the drug. Not what they tell you, not what family or friends tell you, not even what you believe. But as far as these private events go from a subjective point of view, of course they seem to be in control of our behaviour but I would argue they are still completely caused by the environment. The only thing that confuses us is just that we are so complex that these reactions seem to bear no resemblance to the cause. If I hit a billiard ball with a cue, the cause is very obvious; however if I say something nice to someone, that will bounce around inside their head and change somthing in there, then that will change something else, and something else, and something else...etc. And then weeks or months later that person might shout me lunch. Just because we don't understand the causes of behaviour, attributing it to 'free-will' is just lazyness. So saying that a god created everything and then saying that we can go against his will is contradictory. -------------------- Well it's alright riding around in the breeze Well it's alright if you live the life you please Well it's alright doing the best you can Well it's alright as long as you lend a hand
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Dr. Teasy Thighs Registered: 12/02/05 Posts: 14,794 Loc: red panda villag Last seen: 2 years, 10 months |
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Quote: So, if your car doesn't work, all that matters and what is obvious is that it doesn't move and soon it will have to start moving because you have to go work. And instead of looking at the engine or whatever else is inside of it, you just stay there thinking that... it has to work. but life has proved that it simply doesn't work this way.What determines one individual to be a drug addict could (and is) totally different from what determines other drug addict to be hooked on drugs. Therefore, the methods of curing them (psychologically and not biologically) differ. Quote: Yes but the interpretations towards the environment differ from person to person, and our actions are caused by those interpretations, not by the environment itself. If we fail to see that, then it's so long personal responsibility, so long freedom. Quote: We're not billiard balls.
-------------------- ![]() ![]() ![]() All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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HarmReductionist Registered: 04/25/07 Posts: 148 Loc: Hamilton, New Ze Last seen: 10 years, 7 months |
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Quote: Of course not, but if a person has a behaviour problem we can't just change the oil filter and have it fixed. The only way we can change someones behaviour is through the environment surrounding that person. We can't get the car working by waiting for the weather to change, we actually have to open it up and fix it. This is just not possible with humans (yet )Quote: Of course that's the case...and that's why we use a Functional Analysis; to try and figure out what in the environment is maintaining a behaviour. Clearly people react differently to the same thing, but the reason for that particular reaction can be found in each persons history. Personal Responsibility and Freedom are illusions anyway. I mean look at the concept of blame. If I light a house on fire, people are likely to 'blame' me by saying I 'chose' to do it. They would look at themselves and say "Well I have the choice to light houses on fire, but I didn't because I 'choose' not to; therefore he 'chose' to do it and must be punished." However if someone held a gun to my head and said light that house on fire they would say that I had 'no choice'. Clearly there is a contradiction! Either I had a choice in both situations or in neither. We say I had no choice because the reason for my behaviour is clear. I had a gun to my head. However behaviour with a reason that is shadowed in time is much harder to see, and as you said, we all react differently to stimuli so it is even harder to find that clear reason. In reality there is no clear reason, just a chain of causes and effects, stemming right back to time zero. Now this might send people into a spiral of despair; no freedom, no personal responsibility. What's the point in prison? You might ask. If we can't blame any individual for their actions, why are we punishing people? It's not their fault. Fortunately there is still some logic behind our judicial system. We know reinforcement increases behaviour and punishment decreases behaviour. Thus the idea behind prison is that it should reduce the behaviour that the person was put in there for. In reality though, it is a poor system. Outdated and ineffective. So if we really want criminals to change their behaviour, we need to stop thinking of them as 'people' with 'blame' attached to them and more like organisms responding to stimuli. With the right techniques, there is no good reason why we couldn't 'reform' criminals into functioning members of society. It's all a matter of understanding the contingencies maintaining that behaviour and then we can change it. Quote: Oh yes we are.
-------------------- Well it's alright riding around in the breeze Well it's alright if you live the life you please Well it's alright doing the best you can Well it's alright as long as you lend a hand
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Dr. Teasy Thighs Registered: 12/02/05 Posts: 14,794 Loc: red panda villag Last seen: 2 years, 10 months |
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Quote: Of course we can't change the oil filter, humans don't have such, I thought you knew by now. ![]() How can we know what kind of new environment one must have in order to produce a change, if we don't know what are his inner feelings, fears and motivations? Can't you see that what you're saying just doesn't make any sense? While for one drug addict a kind of environment might work with great results, for the other, the same environment can be severely destructive, and, instead of helping him rid his addiction, all it would do is increase his addictive pattern. Quote: Functional analysis is a fucking waste of time and energy and it's proved to be so. For the reasons that I stated earlier. Each individual has different motivation, out inner feelings, our inner thoughts and the way they evolve inside each being are different. Therefore, an observation of this king is something static trying to describe a something that's constantly changing. And no, not anything can be found in each person's history, and there are people who gave up all that past bull shit and that live their lives on their own minds using their intention and determination. Besides, you'll have to know the last and smallest and "insignificant" detail, and that is impossible to achieve. ![]() Quote: Clearly it is a contradiction, on that I agree with you. What I don't agree with you on, is how you interpret it. ![]() In both cases he has more than one choice. On the second case, where one could say I had no choice because I had a gun on my head, his statement is invalid because he DID had other choices, many other choices. Such as let himself get shot, try to escape (run away), try to fight him, etc. See? There are just a few from all the other possible choices that he could make. Quote: Bull shit. It is indeed harder to see the reason, but it doesn't mean that it's impossible. My conclusion? Behaviorism is for lazy people who don't feel like looking beyond appearances. ![]() Both the individual and the individual define each other, they influence each other. Thinking that it's only the environment who does that, makes of it look like it is something that exists independent from us. And from what I know, the environment consists of people. ![]() Quote: In reality there IS a clear reason, but there are also incapable people who prefer to think that there might no reason. That's a fact. Think about how many things in a the past seemed to have no reason and now they do. Because someone was smart and dedicated enough to look for it and go through that incredible chain on ambiguity. ![]() I know, I know, it sounds incredible, but it happens. ![]() Quote: Prison and punishing are a poor and ineffective method but not because of the reasons you specified. It doesn't work because humans (their inner thoughts) don't react good to this method. Because, in order for us to make a change, we have to use our reason. Prison doesn't make appeal to our reason, it only uses fear and intimidation, stimuli to which most of us don't respond in a constructive way. Quote: Oh no, you are
-------------------- ![]() ![]() ![]() All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Sexy.Butt.McDanger Registered: 03/12/02 Posts: 24,855 Loc: Pandurn Last seen: 1 year, 12 days |
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Quote: Meaning what, that we can propose our personal viewpoint on the matter, as a way of presenting a topic for discussion, and then not specifically address what others have proposed in direct response to our viewpoint, only to later reassert our own perspective regardless? Our perspective is not accepted as having any relevance to reality without engaging alternate viewpoints in discussion in order to test them. Quote: Ultimately, there is only reality; our existance as a gradient within reality, yet, clearly we experience a distinctness, we experience an occurence - something here is inevitably, undeniably happening. Its a verb, which implies interaction. In every moment, we interact with reality. The interaction occurs, we can witness it, we experience it. Our environment is just as much shaped and "controlled" by ourselves as we have personally been shaped and "controlled" by our environment. There is absolutely no way of determining how our environment will manifest itself thirty seconds from now, nor is there any way of determining how we will respond to reality. Quote: No one has ever demonstrated this in regards to the choices and decisions that a human being makes. We are the system - we have no perspective that exists beyond ourselves to be able to determine how we will act before we actually do. We only have choices we can make in the present as to how we will act. Tell me, where is the point of outlook from which you can determine how I will choose to act? No one is with you, your entire life, 24/7. We realize the nature of reality through interacting with it. My entire conception of reality is based upon the interaction of my sensory devices with the rest of the environment. Imagine a bat's usage of echolocation, if you will - the bat sending out signals, not knowing the nature of the aspect of reality it is capable of testing through echolocation until the environment's response reaches it. Human beings don't have echolocation, but we have a vast amount of sensory information that we collect, as well as a superb manner of utilizing that information to assemble a wonderfully effective model of reality, which continues to evolve, the more we interact with reality, as a collective, and as individuals. Now, what force is privledged to your mind's thought processes, let alone some observations of how you have manifested in the past? Only you, far as I can tell. You are the only person that can determine how you will act, being the one with the most accurate, informed perspective on the most aspects of your nature as a human being..... and you determine this by acting. Now, what does that tell you?
-------------------- If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Sexy.Butt.McDanger Registered: 03/12/02 Posts: 24,855 Loc: Pandurn Last seen: 1 year, 12 days |
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Quote: If I had a gun pointed at my head, I would start to sing some kind of song. I'm not sure which. Either way, it is clear that every individual is free to make any choice in a situation, consciously or not. The only way human beings are predetermined is if we predetermine ourselves, and this is never an effective means of deciding how to act in response to reality in this moment, as we never know what we are interacting with until this moment. Anyways, the individual with a gun is an individual who seeks to control reality with a predestined plan. Its very if/then. Give me the money, or I'll shoot. If I point this gun at them, they will either A.), B.), or C.) Strange, yosefxp, your options for how to act are the same ones the individual with the gun is expecting. Its an evasion of personal responsibility to allow another individual to determine how you are to act, even if you consciously decide to act in a way that might correspond with their expectations. We decide how to act, even if the present situation narrows the manner in which reality will respond to our choice, bringing us to the necessity to find and act upon our priorities. -------------------- If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Dr. Teasy Thighs Registered: 12/02/05 Posts: 14,794 Loc: red panda villag Last seen: 2 years, 10 months |
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Quote: Sounds like an excellent choice to me. ![]() I shall buy a water gun then. Quote: Yes, it's ineffective and it is something that people are slowly starting to become aware of. I think that the main reason for which people choose to predetermine themselves is because this kind of attitude creates a fake feeling of certainty, of protection. And also because of the education. People see other people predetermining themselves and their actions, so they start doing it too without filtering through reason. Of course, once we start reasoning and putting in balance what's more effective, once we become aware of the fact that we're not exactly the same persons we used to be minutes ago, things change and instead of finding a fixed idea, we choose to let it evolve along with us.
-------------------- ![]() ![]() ![]() All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Registered: 04/15/05 Posts: 11,089 |
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"The Truman Show" is an excellent example of the failure of pure behaviorism to control the complex reactions and responses of a human being. Even in an environment subject to near-perfect control, Truman's behavior was NOT controlled OR predictable.
Yes, we are strongly affected by our conditioning, but I maintain that we always have the option to make the difficult choice, to say "you're going to have to KILL ME" rather than give in to the pressure. We each interpret our environment through a unique filter, and the quality of that filter is subject to alteration from within. THIS is where the real changes may occur, THIS is where our power resides, in our cognition and Will.
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HarmReductionist Registered: 04/25/07 Posts: 148 Loc: Hamilton, New Ze Last seen: 10 years, 7 months |
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MushroomTrip, it's very clear that you don't fully understand what a Functional Analysis is so I'll try to explain.
It is when we look at a behaviour and we figure out the function of it. We then look at the environment and find out what is maintaining that behaviour and this allows us to alter the environment and thus remove the contingencies controlling the behaviour. When this is used in conjunction with some kind of behavioural therapy it is extremely effective. When you say you had a choice if someone had a gun to your head, you are clearly talking about the illusion of choice. If I 'choose' something at a point in time, then theoretically, if we could exactly re-create those exact conditions, I should choose the exact same thing again right? Surely I would go through the exact same 'reasoning' processes the second time around. Unless you believe your reasoning is controlled by something under no influence of the environment..something out of this world (Dualism anyone?). One could apply the same logic to gravity. If I drop something it COULD shoot straight up in the air, go sideways, or disappear completely. It's logically possible but it's just the cause and effects are so clear for something like that so that we can agree that it is not physically possible. The same processes apply for behaviour, if I hold a gun to someone's head and say 'scratch your nose', you again could say to me that that someone COULD sing a song, try to run or just refuse but you can't honestly believe that would happen. You talking about prison is a great example. You claim it's ineffective because of humans 'inner thoughts' and 'reason'. But it has been proven experimentally in animals that punishment is a far worse method of reducing behaviour than reinforcement. If I want to decrease a behaviour in a rat, the best way is to reinforce an incompatible behaviour to replace it. Not to just flat out punish as our prison system tries to do. This might extinguish the behaviour eventually but as we can see with the prison system, it's far from ideal. So when you attribute our rejection of the prison system to our 'inner thoughts' and 'reason', you are guilty of creating a mentalism to try to explain something which can easily be explained by the principals of reinforcement and punishment. Fireworks_god: of course I am not trying to shut down discussion I'm just trying to point out that we're interested in the big picture here. Clearly we change our environment as our environment changes us, but we aren't the 'initiator' or the 'unmoved mover' so to speak. We are part of a chain of cause and effects. Just as a billiard ball hits another which in turn strikes a wall, comes back and hits the first ball away. It's possible for the chain to come back around but something had to have hit the ball in the first place. Your point about you being the best predictor of your own behaviour just goes to show that while behaviourism can theoretically predict behaviour exactly, in practice it would be impossible due to the incalculable number of things we have affecting us. We can however, usually predict general behaviour, hence advertising. However, we make predictions about our own behaviour all the time and are completely wrong frequently. How many millions of people say they're going to start exercising, or not eat desert, or not drink this weekend? We say things like "I'm never going to drink again" and we can be 100% sure of ourselves at the time, mainly due to the hangover, yet a week later when we feel fine we don't think twice about having another drink. Perhaps we aren't in as much control of our behaviour as we think... You might call it an evasion of personal privacy but I call it science. Behaviourism is the science of behaviour. Many people didn't like it when science told them the earth was the center of the universe, or the earth was round, or that the earth is older than 10,000 years (or whatever creationists believe) but eventually we began to understand the science behind these theories and now we give them the credibility they deserve. A science of behaviour is a scary one because it does seem to attack things we hold dear, like free will and personal responsibility. However I have only ever seen evidence for it, none against it. So as far as I'm concerned; if you don't believe it, prove me wrong! -------------------- Well it's alright riding around in the breeze Well it's alright if you live the life you please Well it's alright doing the best you can Well it's alright as long as you lend a hand
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HarmReductionist Registered: 04/25/07 Posts: 148 Loc: Hamilton, New Ze Last seen: 10 years, 7 months |
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Oh and Veritas, where does this filter come from I ask if not from the environment? Do newborn babies have it?
And the Truman show does NOT disprove behaviourism at all. It could never claim to completely control behaviour, not for a long long time at least. As you pointed out, it's far too complex. Look at animals who lash out at their owners, comparatively simple next to us yet still unpredictable. There's nothing unique about humans, we are just more complex. And please define this 'cognition' and 'will' for me...I would love to know what you mean. -------------------- Well it's alright riding around in the breeze Well it's alright if you live the life you please Well it's alright doing the best you can Well it's alright as long as you lend a hand
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Dr. Teasy Thighs Registered: 12/02/05 Posts: 14,794 Loc: red panda villag Last seen: 2 years, 10 months |
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Quote: I fully understood what you said from the first place and if you had chosen to pay enough attention to it, you would have understood that, because of the examples and the reasoning I gave you. Instead of that, each time I come with solid arguments against your doctrine, all you do is come back and say exactly the same things, plain talking, no examples or arguments which could prove me wrong. Of course, we could go on like that for ages, and nothing will change unless you decide to actually start to debate, instead of saying the same things all over again. I hope you have the necessary maturity and discernment to realize the points that I have brought to discussion, and I invite you to take them piece by piece and logically dissolve them. It's the inly way in which this discussion can become fruitful. Behaviorism refuses to take to account the theory on consciousness and cognitive psychology, it tries to diminish consciousness to simple physical processes, when there's no actual research to prove that. All that's been showed and validated until now is that those physical processes and consciousness influence each other, which is something entirely different. Quote: No, it's not the "illusion" of choice, is choice itself. We do always have a choice and some people simply choose something else than conforming. Also the history is a whiteness to the fact that more and more people are starting to have this awareness and realization that they're not obliged to conform, as a result of our consciousness becoming more active and expanded with the passage of time. This of course comes a contra argument to what you're trying to sustain here. Behaviorism was a description (poor description) of what humanity used to be decades ago, and since then a lot have changed, things which left the behaviorist dogma somewhere way behind and in a cloud of dust. And no, I wouldn't choose the exact same thing over and over, and none of us would. Thinking otherwise is an illusion.. Even if you could re-create the exact same condition that made an individual decide to one thing over another, you still can't get the same results because the individual would not be same anymore. Like I said the last time, we're constantly changing and refusing to see that doesn't mean that it is not happening. Self actualizing and acknowledging self-actualizing is linked to that level of awareness I was earlier talking about. And it's when an individual realizes that "the old ways" are not serving him good enough, so he decides to become active in his own life, instead of just being just a passive observer. Some of the realizations we reach at this stage is that we're not what we do (or in other words we stop identifying with merely our actions), self acceptance, acknowledging the fact that we're not dependent on others in order to feel good and centered, self actualization. Quote: No it's not the same thing. I even refuse to explain why it's not the same because I consider your example so out of line and ridiculous that there's no need for an explanation. Basically you you just assume that each of us, if we had a gun pointed at our temples, would just conform and to what the one who threatens us is telling us to do. This is simply untrue and unsustained. ![]() Quote: You example fails from the start because rats are simply not the same thing with humans when it comes to intelligence, awareness, and any other mental process. Also reinforcement and punishment are pretty relative terms. We as humans are much more complicated than a mechanical series of chains and effects, I've already been through that and I hate repeating myself, so I think I'll just wait for you to really answer the questions I raised, instead of repeating the same thing each time you reply. Quote: Leaving aside the fact that it's ridiculous to compare people with billiard balls, just out of curiosity, what is, in your opinion, that "something" that hits the ball? ![]() Quote: No, you are twisting his words. What he wanted to emphasize was that we are our own best predictors in the sense that we can always choose to become aware of the fact that our choices are far from being limited and restricted and that empowering ourselves with personal responsibility is what opens the door to a whole new set of multiple outcomes, from which we have the liberty to, of course, choose. ![]() Quote: We are only responsible for what we do, and your example aways regards an illusory group of others. This can't be right and it's not relevant to this discussion because then I can always say yes but then there are others which say I won't eat desert and they don't, I will never drink again and they don't and so on. So perhaps we should have the common decency in allowing ourselves to be our own "judges". The fact that some people can't be in control of their own lives, does not, by any chance, prove that personal responsibility doesn't exist. ![]() Quote: What you're saying hare is so full of BS that I don't even know where to begin in showing you that. Perhaps you should read The Fallacies of Philosophical Debate and see with your own eyes how flawed this statement of yours is. Quote: No, allow me to contradict you. It is far more convenient for lots of people to believe that there's no such thing as personal responsibility, even if in the same time they are being deprived of freedom to. Why? Because many people feel free of any WORRIES when thinking that they don't have to suffer the consequences for their actions. Also, you are the one who made the claim that there's no such thing thing as free will, so you are the one who has to prove it, not the other way around. If you observe carefully this thread, you didn't come up with ANY prove until now.
-------------------- ![]() ![]() ![]() All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Beyond Registered: 05/07/04 Posts: 6,697 Loc: Between Last seen: 3 years, 16 days |
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I haven't known that Behaviorism (used upon humans) is alive still, yet ![]() It really is time to look into the (Skinner's) black box (as you said, via cognitive science) ! edit: Yosefxp: Your assumptions work for animals only, and in large behaviorism on humans can only be applied in regards to their vegetative nervous system, not the central nervous system. -------------------- Edited by BlueCoyote (10/08/07 11:59 AM)
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The Minstrel in the Gallery Registered: 03/15/05 Posts: 95,368 Loc: underbelly |
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There's nothing unique about humans, we are just more complex.
Good good good. -------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Blue Fish Group Registered: 04/01/07 Posts: 45,414 Loc: Under the C |
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Some of us are more unique than others!
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The Minstrel in the Gallery Registered: 03/15/05 Posts: 95,368 Loc: underbelly |
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I heard this statement from a Jewish person. "We are just like everybody else, only more so."
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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HarmReductionist Registered: 04/25/07 Posts: 148 Loc: Hamilton, New Ze Last seen: 10 years, 7 months |
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Firstly I would like to apologise...I am under alot of stress at the moment so if my arguments seem incoherent at times I assure you they are in my head
. I'm just having trouble getting them out so please be nice I am still new at this. ![]() Quote: When we have a problem behaviour, say a child tantruming in the supermarket, what a functional analysis does is looks at the behaviour, knowing that cause of it will probably be different from another childs tantruming, and tries to find out why the behaviour is being maintained. Alot of people will assume that because two behaviours have similar topographies they probably have similar causes. Behaviour problems such as overeating are usually assumed that the person has no 'self control'. A functional analysis will look at that behaviour and work out the reinforcement/punishment congintencies that are maintaing that behaviour. We know people react differently to different things, and this is why a functional analysis is so hard. Many people have eating disorders but the congintencies maintaining that behaviour will probably be different in each person. Books that try to tell you how to control your child in a supermarket or how to control your eating are poor, a good name for that is 'cook-book psychology' as this assume similar behaviours have similar congintengies. As far as your claim about research...every single bit of evidence supports the idea that we are nothing more than advanced animals. As with my rat example, animals respond exactly the same way we do to punishment. They are affected in the exact same way as they also prefer reinforcement to punishment. Yet even though humans and rats respond the same to prison like punishment, you still claim our response is due to 'intelligence' and 'awaremess'. All the scientific evidence shows that we react in exactly the same way to reinforcement and punishment as other animals do in reguards to response rates, response patterns etc...to that the exact same causes create the exact same effects for different reasons is something which must be proven before it can be accepted. Quote: Question: would you punish someone for lighting a house on fire if you knew they had a gun to their head while being told to do it? Why or why not? You claim he still had a choice so why not punish him for that choice? You might cite intent. He didn't want to burn down the house. But you claim he still had a choice so at some point for him to do it he must have wanted to. Another example: what about the child with a bad upbringing who lights a house on fire? He had intent..would you punish him? Why or why not? Behaviourism was not a description of humanity in the 50's. It is an idea based on experimental data. Just like any other science. Of course you'd choose the same thing, try the thought experiment where you 'choose' something and then go back in time to the choice point again. Why would you 'choose' anything different? Of course it's physically impossible to do this as you rightly pointed out, we are constantly changing. Quote: It IS the same thing and that's my point. We just happed to observe the cause-effect relationship of gravity so often that there's no doubt left in our minds. I don't assume that's exactly what everyone will do, we are much more complex. It's like me kicking a soccer ball, so many factors are at work so while the balls path is relatively predictable, I can't say what exactly will happen. As I can't be exactly sure what will happen someone is asked to scratch their nose with a gun to their head. I can however be reasonably certain. Quote: If we react the same, how does intelligence, awareness or any other mental processes factor in? Reinforcer: Something which increases the likelyhood of the behaviour is it paired with re-occuring. Punisher: something which decreases the likelyhood of the behaviour is it paired with re-occuring. Of course we are more complicated, that's what makes us the top of the food chain . But that doesn't change the fact that we are just responding to contingencies like everything else. Just because we cannot immediately see the chains does not mean they don't exist.Quote: The cue. Quote: Quote: That is a very long post, care to point me in the right direction? I'm just saying that as science progresses, resisitance to it's ideas are normal. Quote: Ha, do you really believe that I am talking about a society in which we don't punish anyone for anything? That because there is no personal responsibility there are no consequeces?? If someone does something wrong, that behaviour becomes the target of change. If punishing decreases the chance of that behaviour occuring again then we should consider it. However reinforcement is a much more effective alternative. I believe that this 'free-will' doesn't exist. Your asking me to prove a negative; I don't have to prove it, the burden of proof lies in your corner. You are creating this 'free-will' thing. Show it to me, show me what it does. As far as all scientific edivence goes, we are just reacting to contingencies; just like all other organisms. Show me that we aren't. -------------------- Well it's alright riding around in the breeze Well it's alright if you live the life you please Well it's alright doing the best you can Well it's alright as long as you lend a hand
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HarmReductionist Registered: 04/25/07 Posts: 148 Loc: Hamilton, New Ze Last seen: 10 years, 7 months |
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Quote: Ha, behaviourism is actually growing as of late. More and more people are starting to get Skinners ideas as they were so far ahead of their time. Especially his book Verbal Behaviour. People like Noam Chomsky criticised it at the time but then people like that also said animals could never learn language...Skinner never said that. As for your last statement, you seem to be thinking of Classical/Pavlovian conditioning. Behaviourism deals mainly with Operant conditioning which works exactly the same in humans and animals. -------------------- Well it's alright riding around in the breeze Well it's alright if you live the life you please Well it's alright doing the best you can Well it's alright as long as you lend a hand
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Dr. Teasy Thighs Registered: 12/02/05 Posts: 14,794 Loc: red panda villag Last seen: 2 years, 10 months |
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Quote: And where did I ever state that the self help books would help in a way? Most of them, if not all, are total BS, so on that we agree. However, this doesn't prove anything more but their inefficiency, not the fact that we have complex and elaborated inner thoughts, the kind which behaviorist psychology could never deduce, and that's because it only emphasizes the surface of the human psyche. Also, there are parents who simply have no clue how to raise their children, who have no clue what their children need or don't need, so it's only natural for those less fortunate kids to become hysterical in stressful situations, such as the one you gave as example. It is true that most people who have self-control issues do so because of the environment they live in, but it is also because they indulge themselves in that pattern. They are aware of their damaging habits, but still they continue. It seems that laziness is one of our main characteristics, but we can always beat that through using our Will. Quote: Yes, we are complex animals. I didn't say that, as opposed to the other living beings which inhabit this planet, we are "magical beings". I am aware of what we are, but this doesn't mean that we don't possess consciousness. Simply because the other animals have it too. Only that since we're more advanced (biologically speaking), it is highly possible that our degree of awareness is bigger too. Quote: I wouldn't punish anyone, simply because I think that punishing is a medieval technique, something that has to get out of our mentalities as soon as possible. That is to say, I wouldn't punish those who apparently had "no other choice", and I wouldn't punish those who did a "bad thing" "on purpose" either. I still think that there's no such thing as the lack of any other choice than the so called imposed one. Getting back to the individual threatened with the gun on his head, I would say that, besides the fact that he has so many other options than just submitting, if he were to burn the house as told, his intention would be not to lose his life. For others, it is far more important not to submit. And others yet, just have better nerves and prefer to exploit their abilities and try to get out of the situation. ![]() See? Many choices. ![]() Quote: Let me remember you the other options that you gave as example: Quote: Your other alternatives which I emphasized in your quote are absolutely impossible to happen when we consider the law of the gravity. This is exactly why I wouldn't even bother to explain hoe ridiculous your example is, because there's no comparison between the human mind and the laws if the gravity. ![]() Unless the object you decide to drop would be a bird and until it would have reached the ground, it decides to fly away, which leaves a lot of new room for speculation. ![]() Quote: Read the above. Quote: I was hoping that you understood my question. Let me make it easier for you. ![]() If we are the equivalent of billiard balls, what would be the equivalent of the cue? ![]() Quote: I recommend you to read all of it. Assuming that somewhere in the future behaviorism will be fully validated, just because this is how it happened to so many other theories in the past, is NOT a prove for it actually being efficient or that it will ever be proven to be so. Quote: And what do establish what is good or bad, so you can "educate" it the "right" way? Are we talking here about a proper sustaining of a social model which imposes a certain conduit, are we talking about what's good for each individual, what are YOU talking about exactly when you refer to someone doing something "wrong"? Quote: That is what I keep doing since the beginning of our discussion. I've been presenting you the numerous other possibilities, the ones you simply refuse to take to account each time you reply, and when you do you come up with ridiculous examples such as the law of gravity, and in the same time failing to prove your point. -------------------- ![]() ![]() ![]() All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Beyond Registered: 05/07/04 Posts: 6,697 Loc: Between Last seen: 3 years, 16 days |
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Wow, I think the resurrection of behaviorism is creepy
![]() Even 50 years ago, it was used to defy the possibility of free will. I thought the discussion was off the table. I have to inform me more about the recent tendencies it took form into. For me it sounds quite ignorant, as I studied cognitive psychology and differential psychology, too and yet there have not been made out these 'private' factors how behaviorism calls them, or these external variables which 100% predict ones internal choice and the resulting behaviour. Even absolutely reliable internal factors (personality constants) are not possible to detect for many reasons. One is, they constantly change and not only for external reasons or causes ![]() Thanks for the hint As I said, I have to inform me better and be more aware of strange things happening in my fields of interest ![]() edit, to bring it a little nearer back to thread: So, we finally can blame GOD for all that misery, and have no real responsibility in all of that. Only programmed to behave. I am not ready to believe this yet, but that doesn't matter anyways
-------------------- Edited by BlueCoyote (10/09/07 11:36 AM)
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but life has proved that it simply doesn't work this way.



)



. I'm just having trouble getting them out so please be nice I am still new at this. 



