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Invisiblezorbman
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Putin signals plan to hold onto power
    #7473331 - 10/01/07 10:14 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

By STEVE GUTTERMAN, Associated Press Writer
44 minutes ago

MOSCOW - President Vladimir Putin said Monday he would lead the dominant party's ticket in December parliamentary elections and suggested he could become prime minister, the strongest indication yet that he will seek to retain power after he steps down as president early next year.

Putin is barred from seeking a third consecutive term in the March presidential election, but has strongly indicated he would seek to keep a hand on Russia's reins.

He agreed to head the United Russia party's candidate list in December, which could open the door for him to become a powerful prime minister — leading in tandem with a weakened president.

Putin called a proposal that he become prime minister "entirely realistic," but added that it was still "too early to think about it."

He said that, first, United Russia would have to win the Dec. 2 elections and a "decent, competent, modern person" must be elected president.

Putin's agreement to top the candidate list of United Russia sent an ecstatic cheer though the crowd at a congress of the party, which contains many top officials and dominates the parliament and politics nationwide. The move will likely ensure that United Russia retains a two-thirds majority in the State Duma, the lower house of parliament, enough to change the constitution.

Leading the party's ticket does not mean Putin will take a seat in parliament; prominent politicians and other figures often are given the top spots to attract votes, but stay out of the legislature after elections. The 450 seats in the Duma will be distributed proportionally among parties that receive at least 7 percent of the votes.

The popular Putin has repeatedly promised to step down at the end of his second term in May, as the constitution requires, but has suggested he would maintain significant influence. He offered some initial hints at his strategy last month when he named Viktor Zubkov — a previously obscure figure known mainly for his loyalty — as prime minister.

With no power base of his own, Zubkov would likely play his preordained part in any Putin plan. If he became presiodent and Putin prime minister, Zubkov could be expected to cede specific powers to Putin or step down to allow him to return to the presidency. If he becomes prime minister, Putin would be first in line to replace the president if he is incapacitated.

Putin has amassed authority as president, but as he prepares to step down he has been setting up a system of check and balances that would weaken his successor by putting him at the mercy of rival centers of power. By leading the United Russia party list, Putin instantaneously creates the strongest such center, with himself as its head.

The move means that Putin's successor "will not be a czar," Kremlin-connected analyst Gleb Pavlovsky said on Ekho Moskvy radio. "There will be a new center of influence outside the Kremlin."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071001/ap_on_re_eu/russia_putin_9;_ylt=AmRrl_7kj_Rn3EtOuh_AIFkE1vAI


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Registered: 09/15/00
Posts: 2,601
Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: zorbman]
    #7493216 - 10/07/07 12:26 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Times Online
Vladimir Putin rescued Russia from disaster: so let’s just leave him be


Yet again President Putin’s fingers are being rapped: he has apparently been trying to hang on to power. Russia’s Constitution was written more or less to Western order, back in the days when free markets and democracy were supposed to reign. Models were consulted. The French one has a president with powers such that the prime minister is a glorified office-boy; but, in Russia, as in the American model, presidents are not supposed to run for office more than twice in case it goes to their heads.

Vladimir Putin may retire to run Gazprom but instead, quite astutely, he is finding a way to hang on to power. He can put himself forward as deputy for the reigning party, then become prime minister, and push forward, as nominal president, a man in his mid-sixties whom he can control. Such devices are not at all without precedent in Russia. Moving an older or even an aged man, without ambition, into a high office so that he can be controlled from behind has long origins, beyond even communist times. If Vladimir Putin is finding a way to hang on to power, then he is doing so within the tradition. And the very first thing to be said is that he has been a very successful leader of the country.

Not so long ago, Russia was being written off. Wise persons shook their heads. Moscow was like Berlin in the latter days of the Weimar Republic – Cabaret, complete with rampaging inflation, old women selling their husbands’ medals in the underpasses of the ring roads, prostitutes all over the place (every businessman had his story), a collapsing birthrate, gangster-capitalism raking it in and making whoopee in hotels in Monte Carlo. There was even a school of thought to the effect that the whole of Eurasia was turning into a Latin America: a Slavonic culture disintegrating as the overall Spanish culture of Latin America had done, into oil-rich turbulent Venezuelas on the one side, and weird, atmosphere-poor Bolivias on the other, while wars went ahead between assorted Hondurases and Nicaraguas.

Under Putin, Russia has not turned into Latin America. Quite the contrary. Reality on the ground in Russia nowadays is different, and this is not just to do with the recent rise in oil prices. If you go to the provincial towns east and south east of Moscow – Vladimir, say, or Saratov – you can see a successful change going ahead, as people set up businesses such as furniture factories to make up for that lack of consumer goods that marked the old Soviet Union. The university in Saratov has state-of-the-art computers; even agriculture is said to be improving. The horrors of Chechnya are receding into the past and the International Herald Tribune, not a lover of Putin, recently carried an article about the return of order there: the planes fly back and forth and Grozny is being restored after two decades of vicious nonsense including that horrible massacre of schoolchildren three years ago.

Of all things, tourism is being encouraged, and the Chechen insurgency seems to be a horror story of the past. There are other encouraging signs. In old Russia, the Tatars were a very important element, not backward Muslims as was sometimes casually supposed: they were good traders, and their habit of sobriety made them stand out. Now, Tatars have been adding their creative element (two instances that will have British resonance: both Nureyev and Barishnikov are Tatar names, Nur from “light” and Barish from “peace”). The Russians are even marketing an aircraft that will challenge Boeing and Airbus.

So if Putin thinks that he has done well by his country he is not wrong, and masses of ordinary Russians agree. Now, Russia is recovering, and is back on the world’s stage. Why should a successful president be held back by some constitutional formality?

There is no real reason for constitutions to be set in tablets of stone. Referendums were staged elsewhere in the old Soviet continent for successful and popular presidents to stay in office, and it is maybe a measure of Putin’s lack of self-confidence that he shrinks from that. Does he really have to fear the criticism of Europeans, let alone Americans, who now seem to be settling into their own pattern of dynastic politics? Of course his regime is not pure, in the approved Scandinavian manner. It has had to deal with horrible problems of terrorism, and no government can ever be entirely without sin in conditions of that sort.

But Putin has highlighted an aspect of Russia that anyone in London should recognise. Russia, like Britain, is a country with a capacity for tissue regeneration. In the Seventies, you would have written Britain off. And then, lo and behold, in the Eighties she struck back – many, many things wrong, of course, but back just the same.

It is an odd fact that English literature translates best into Russian, and vice versa. Two countries on the European edge, with the same diagonal approach, and very interested in each other. We should not be criticising Putin: rather, encouraging him to stage that referendum.

Norman Stone, former Professor of Modern History at Oxford, is now head of the international relations department at Bilkent University in Ankara

---------------------------------
Comments:

I know, strong Russia (just economically strong) is bad news for many in the west, and even in Russia itself. When Russia was falling apart, when it was looted by the oligarchs and governed by the 'family" of Yelstin, who actually ordered tanks to fire on the parlament, that was a real democracy, the democracy the west wanted to be in Russia. But when the economy is growing 7% a year, when the war in Chechnya is ending, when life in Russia is generally imroving, this is the time to start worrying about poor Russian democracy.

I understand your sentiments very well, my dear westerners.

pressreader, Zasranks, Russia



people who's phones, emails, and bank records are being monitored by their own government need to lay off criticizing other democracies - thats the russian way of looking at things

Denis, Texas,


Vladimir Putin is a true blessing for us, Russians. It's hard to find extremely smart ambious modern man who truly cares about his country and its people - and also capable to be a great leader and organizor. We are really proud of our president and the worst thing would be if he leaves the poltics. Back in 2000 when he was obscure and little known, it was enough to read his first book to see his line of thought, to see that he was the best man for the job, that he will go in the right direction and will give Russia a chance to realize itself.

Some point at the oil revenues as a driver behind Russia's resurgence. Don't believe. Has it been Yeltsin, the newfound wealth would've been a source of super income to those few oligarchs who plagues Russia in the 1990's. Oil revenues by itself would NOT have made such difference - there is not a slightest doubt about it. Though, I have to admit - Russia still has a lot of problems, but they will work itself out if we go Putin's way.

Alexey Makarov, Ekaterinburg, Russia


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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: Disco Cat]
    #7493463 - 10/07/07 02:22 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Vladimir Putin may retire to run Gazprom but instead, quite astutely, he is finding a way to hang on to power..Such devices are not at all without precedent in Russia.




Not without precedent indeed (As if that were an excuse).

Neither are Tsars.

I love how the author presents hanging onto power as a good thing.
If Bush does the same I wonder if he would view that as a good thing?


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


Edited by zorbman (10/07/07 02:29 AM)


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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: zorbman]
    #7493589 - 10/07/07 04:55 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

zorbman said:


I love how the author presents hanging onto power as a good thing.
If Bush does the same I wonder if he would view that as a good thing?




Putin is nothing like Bush. Russia was in chaos after the Soviet Union fell. Putin brought order, Bush did the opposite .


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"


Edited by downforpot (10/07/07 04:56 AM)


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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: downforpot]
    #7494135 - 10/07/07 11:51 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Russia was in chaos after the Soviet Union fell. Putin brought order, Bush did the opposite .




It is amazing what a few years of record-high oil prices can do for an oil-rich nation.

Putin is highly overrated.


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


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InvisibleCracka_X
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Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: zorbman]
    #7494352 - 10/07/07 01:00 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

HAhahahaha, awesome!!! no not really but since it's russia, awesome

Quote:

I love how the author presents hanging onto power as a good thing.





From my understanding russia is the most difficult place to be a journalist. Something like more journalists have died(mysteriously disappeared) in Russia when speaking against their government.

so whether the author is for or against putin, this type of tone may be the only acceptable tone for him to convey it to the public.


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing


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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Registered: 09/15/00
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Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: zorbman]
    #7494485 - 10/07/07 01:42 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zorbman said:
Not without precedent indeed (As if that were an excuse).



He doesn't need an excuse, it'd all be happening within the rules and his country wants it to happen. Also, the writer of the article is not Russian:
Norman Stone, former Professor of Modern History at Oxford, is now head of the international relations department at Bilkent University in Ankara

What's there to excuse?

Quote:


I love how the author presents hanging onto power as a good thing.
If Bush does the same I wonder if he would view that as a good thing?



It is a good thing, because Putin does good, and it is being done without breaking any rules or reshaping them.
If Bush retained power it would be horrible, as Bush does horrible things.
More good = good, more bad = bad... See the difference?


-----------------


Quote:

Cracka_X said:
HAhahahaha, awesome!!!




I agree.


Quote:


From my understanding russia is the most difficult place to be a journalist. Something like more journalists have died(mysteriously disappeared) in Russia when speaking against their government.



...Or so the propaganda goes.

Quote:


so whether the author is for or against putin, this type of tone may be the only acceptable tone for him to convey it to the public.



It's not a Russian article.

Norman Stone, former Professor of Modern History at Oxford, is now head of the international relations department at Bilkent University in Ankara


Edited by Disco Cat (10/07/07 01:59 PM)


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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: zorbman]
    #7494583 - 10/07/07 02:16 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zorbman said:
Quote:

Russia was in chaos after the Soviet Union fell. Putin brought order, Bush did the opposite .




It is amazing what a few years of record-high oil prices can do for an oil-rich nation.

Putin is highly overrated.




Not just that...


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"


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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: Disco Cat]
    #7494640 - 10/07/07 02:31 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Why not just have Putin declared "President For Life"? It would be legal and he could then freely exercise his godlike powers until disabled by old age.

Actually oil and gas profits would be higher under a different leader. I posted an article recently showing how Russia's oil and gas output has suffered because Putin has his hand-picked people running those industries.

When you are blessed with the enormous geological resources of Russia you should allow those industries to be run by the most competent professionals, not Mr. Putin's cronies.

"In the oil sector, output growth was only 2.8 per in 2005, and 2.2 percent in 2006, compared with an average 8.5 percent between 2000 and 2004."

Notice a trend there? Fortunately for Boss Putin oil prices have been spectacularly high which would make anyone look good. There is plenty of money leftover after the incompetence.

"Soon after [State owned] Gazprom finally announced this summer that it had chosen France's Total as a foreign partner to help develop the vast Shtokman gas field, the Russian gas giant chose a St Petersburg shipyard, owned by the son of a businessman close to President Vladimir Putin, to supply rigs.

Gazprom denies its decision on the $2.3bn contract had anything to do with the Vyborg plant's ownership. But critics say giving the contract to a yard that had been at a standstill for 10 years was typical of a growing trend in Russian oil and gas, in which most significant assets - and deals - are concentrated in the hands of a small group of officials close to the president.

Russia's energy sector in the past seven years has undergone a massive transformation from its diverse and largely private ownership under President Boris Yeltsin in the 1990s in the hands of competing "oligarchs".

"This is Mr Putin's personal sphere," says Vladimir Milov, head of Moscow's Institute of Energy Policy."

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/deb091cc-7082-11dc-a6d1-0000779fd2ac.html

The trend in Russia is concentration of wealth and power in the hands of Mr. Putin and his buddies.

Does this bode well for democracy in Russia?

Has it ever anywhere?


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: Cracka_X]
    #7494791 - 10/07/07 03:04 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

From my understanding russia is the most difficult place to be a journalist. Something like more journalists have died(mysteriously disappeared) in Russia when speaking against their government.




Putin’s Crony to Become Lead Prosecutor

"Any hopes for transparency in Russia’s judicial branch were firmly dashed in late June when the government announced that a special council will be created within the General Prosecution Office. Its new leader: Alexander Bastrykin, one of Vladimir Putin’s former classmates. Currently a deputy at the General Prosecution Office, Bastrykin will investigate the country’s most significant criminal cases, such as the murder of Anna Politkovskaya. (Politkovskaya, a journalist and ardent critic of Putin’s government, was assassinated after publishing an article describing Russian military atrocities in Chechnya.)

Bastrykin apparently will also be given jurisdiction over the murder investigation of Alexander Litvinenko, the ex-KGB agent who was poisoned in London. Bastrykin’s appointment likely means that another Putin crony will have far-reaching prosecutorial powers, possibly surpassing those currently held by the General Prosecution Office."

http://www.energytribune.com/articles.cfm?aid=606


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: zorbman]
    #7500487 - 10/09/07 05:14 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zorbman said:
Why not just have Putin declared "President For Life"? It would be legal and he could then freely exercise his godlike powers until disabled by old age.



No, there are no legal allowances for that - Even as sarcasm, this doesn't make sense.
The goal is not to extend Putin's power as long as possible, as you seem to think, but to ensure that someone good for Russia is at the helm. Who's to say that Putin will be good indefinitely? For now it's a good move.

Quote:


Actually oil and gas profits would be higher under a different leader. I posted an article recently showing how Russia's oil and gas output has suffered because Putin has his hand-picked people running those industries.



You must not understand that Putin nationalized the energy industry, and so, under a different leader, Russia would not have prospered.

Quote:


When you are blessed with the enormous geological resources of Russia you should allow those industries to be run by the most competent professionals, not Mr. Putin's cronies.
"In the oil sector, output growth was only 2.8 per in 2005, and 2.2 percent in 2006, compared with an average 8.5 percent between 2000 and 2004."
Notice a trend there? Fortunately for Boss Putin oil prices have been spectacularly high which would make anyone look good. There is plenty of money leftover after the incompetence.




How did you come to the conclusion that a lower rate of growth meant anything bad? Where is the incompetence, and where is the loss of money? Are you suggesting that the oil is now not going to get sold? This oil will likely be worth even more in the future, and it will all be sold.

Yes, there is a trend. The output has caught up to demand/Russia's interests. Did you think it could grow forever, or that it even should (obviously you did)? Despite Russia increasing its oil production over the last year (estimates for 2007 are 483,000 barrels a day - a 5% increase), oil exports have stayed the same, while domestic usage is more than covered. Also, Russian oil production is expected to peak in 2010.
Meanwhile, Putin has spoken of decreasing the rate of oil production and capping it, which should be for the sake of Russia's best interests.
See below:

Quote:

Turning Off The Taps
Should Putin decide to limit Russian oil production later this year, then such an announcement would be good news for Russia. Russia's balance of payments and the economy in general are both very healthy; Russia does not need more money from pumping more oil, especially if the price of oil increases. On the other hand, leaving more oil in the ground now means there will be more available later. This is very important since there are an increasing number of analysts who think that global oil production will peak or plateau any time between now and 2015. Post-peak, whenever that is, oil reserves are more likely to be viewed as a scarce resource and much more valuable.




So yes, there's a decrease in Russian oil production growth (not actual production), and you've provided an article that also warns about a decrease in oil production growth, but it seems to be done in Russia's interests, tho maybe not according to international demand, and of course none of it equals a loss of money.
You accuse of incompetence, without understanding why certain actions are being taken, and whether they are a good thing or not, while assuming it is not. So then, who is really being incompetent?
The actual concern is that when existening oil fields run out, new oil sites may not have been prepared in time to take over the demand. However, this is still speculation. Whether this actually happens or not rests with Gazprom, who believes it will not.


Quote:


The trend in Russia is concentration of wealth and power in the hands of Mr. Putin and his buddies.

Does this bode well for democracy in Russia?

Has it ever anywhere?




The industry was privatized beforehand, and there's no democracy in privatization, and neither was there any democracy lost during nationalization.


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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: zorbman]
    #7500538 - 10/09/07 05:50 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Putin hiring someone he knows doesn't actually speak one way or the other on whether something bad has happened.

So you found us a reporter who was assassinated, great. Now find us one that was assassinated by Putin and your point will have been made.

-------------------

Investigators Know Who Killed Politkovskaya

Investigators know who killed reporter Anna Politkovskaya but have not determined who hired him, a senior investigator said.

"We haven't charged the killer yet, but we know who he is," said Petros Garibyan, head of the Investigative Committee's inquiry into the murder, in an interview published Monday in Politkovskaya's former newspaper, Novaya Gazeta. "But it's another matter to trace the entire process: from the person who ordered the murder to the person who carried it out."

He said he had "curious" leads about the suspected mastermind, without elaborating.

Izvestia reported Monday that those leads had taken investigators to Ukraine, where on Friday they questioned Nikolai Melnichenko, a former bodyguard of former Ukrainian Prime Minister Leonid Kuchma and a one-time associate of Boris Berezovsky. The nature of Melnichenko's possible connection to the Oct. 7, 2006, murder was not disclosed, but he gave evidence that helped the investigation, Izvestia said, citing a source in Ukraine. Prosecutors have indicated that they suspect Kremlin foes abroad -- such as Berezovsky -- might have ordered the killing to blacken the Kremlin's reputation.


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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: Disco Cat]
    #7501802 - 10/09/07 02:44 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Putin hiring someone he knows doesn't actually speak one way or the other on whether something bad has happened.




Do you understand that continually placing your buddies in positions of power and influence is cronyism?

Who is doing this?

Boss Putin.

Quote:

So you found us a reporter who was assassinated, great. Now find us one that was assassinated by Putin and your point will have been made.




Nice strawman.


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: zorbman]
    #7501841 - 10/09/07 03:04 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Actually, believing that Putin is behind the assassination (especially while there is evidence indicting others) based on nothing but the fact that the reporter wrote an article against him in the strawman.

My suggesting that your intended point cannot be made since there is no shown connection is not a strawman argument, it's reason.


You're working thought seems to be "I think Putin did it because I don't trust him, and I think he's that kind of guy." It's not very sound.


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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: Disco Cat]
    #7501843 - 10/09/07 03:04 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

No, there are no legal allowances for that - Even as sarcasm, this doesn't make sense.




Laws can be changed. And making Putin "President for Life" is not something I came up with to be sarcastic. People are actually seriously talking about it.

Even world leaders:

"Putin should be made president for life. Strong rule is needed. Democracy is an American invention…" -Chechen President, Ramzan Kadyrov.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramzan_Kadyrov

Quote:

The goal is not to extend Putin's power as long as possible, as you seem to think, but to ensure that someone good for Russia is at the helm.




Are there no other good leaders in Russia?

Why this constant obsession over one man?

I bet Bush wishes he could control the media to create his own personality cult. It's amazing how popular a person can get when he has the power to squelch dissent and promote himself using state-run media.

Quote:

You must not understand that Putin nationalized the energy industry, and so, under a different leader, Russia would not have prospered.




Did you not bother to read the article I posted? It mentioned that and I am well aware of it. It has contributed to Russia's diminished oil and gas output.

Stop making Putin out to be some kind of genius. Virtually any leader would do well with today's sky high oil and gas prices.

Quote:

How did you come to the conclusion that a lower rate of growth meant anything bad?




Common sense? Lower output means forgone profits. That is what happens when you put your cronies in charge instead of experts. Just ask Bush what happened when he put "Brownie" in charge of Katrina relief.

Quote:

Did you think it could grow forever, or that it even should (obviously you did)?




Of course not, but that is one sharp dropoff during Putin's tenure.

Quote:

Meanwhile, Putin has spoken of decreasing the rate of oil production and capping it




He may have spoken of it but he hasn't done it. Therefore the drop in production cannot be attributed to this. I would suggest you look to the Putin oligarchy for the real reason.


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


Edited by zorbman (10/09/07 04:14 PM)


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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: Disco Cat]
    #7501857 - 10/09/07 03:10 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Actually, believing that Putin is behind the assassination.. is the strawman.
Quote:



Show me where I stated Putin ordered her assassination.

Sorry, that's a strawman.



--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: zorbman]
    #7502050 - 10/09/07 04:10 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Please, don't go into a quote fest, condense your points as much as possible. Besides being an eye irritation, these quote-fests tend to have the least amount of substantial data.


Quote:

zorbman said:
Making Putin "President for Life" is not something I came up with to be sarcastic. People are actually seriously talking about it.

Even world leaders:

"Putin should be made president for life. Strong rule is needed. Democracy is an American invention…" -Chechen President, Ramzan Kadyrov.



It doesn't matter, you used it as sarcram, and it would not be legal, as you argued. Since Putin has refused taking on a 3rd term, it's a moot point.


Quote:

Quote:

The goal is not to extend Putin's power as long as possible, as you seem to think, but to ensure that someone good for Russia is at the helm.




Are there no other good leaders in Russia?



Maybe another Yeltson is what you're thinking of? Tell me why the US does not have a good leader right now, I guess there just must not be any to go around.

Quote:

I bet Bush wishes he could control the media to create his own personality cult. It's amazing how popular a person can get when he has the power to squelch dissent.



Interesting suspicions, but that's all they are.


Quote:

Quote:

You must not understand that Putin nationalized the energy industry, and so, under a different leader, Russia would not have prospered.




Did you not bother to read the article I posted? It mentioned that and I am well aware of it. It has contributed to Russia's diminished oil and gas output.

Stop making Putin out to be some kind of genius. Virtually any leader would do well with today's sky high oil and gas prices.



No, you clearly didn't understand that, because my comment, to which you were responding to in this case, which specifically stated that Putin's re-nationalization is what benefitted Russia, was debated by you. You quoted that piece and argued that another leader would have done better (while they could not without nationalization), so clearly you were not understanding something.

Genius? I think that's your bitterness or envy talking. I haven't made him out to be genious, only good - due to his pretty sound logic and reason approach to politics. I guess if it takes a genius to do good things, then that'd make him one.


Quote:

Quote:

How did you come to the conclusion that a lower rate of growth meant anything bad?




Common sense? Lower output means forgone profits. That is what happens when you put your cronies in charge instead of experts. Just ask Bush what happened when he put "Brownie" in charge of Katrina relief.






It actually means conserved profits, and conserved resources for other uses, not forgone ones. Interestingly, Putin's cronies happen to be experts in the oil field.
I think it would be intelligence to suppose that he knew them because he's been working in that field, rather than thinking he threw them into that field to do his work simply because he knew them.


Quote:


Quote:

Did you think it could grow forever, or that it even should (obviously you did)?


Of course not, but that is one sharp dropoff during Putin's tenure.

Quote:

Meanwhile, Putin has spoken of decreasing the rate of oil production and capping it




He may have spoken of it but he hasn't done it. Therefore the drop in production cannot be attributed to this. I would suggest you look to the Putin oligarchy for the real reason.




If Putin wants to decrase oil production, then he is obviouly going to limit its growth right now, even if he hasn't yet put a cap on it.
Apart from the knowledge of why growth has slowed these statistics have no meaning. To say that Putin is incompetent is missing the nail completely. To say that Putin's oil management plan is the reason is a little more accurate, and it seems to be a good thing for Russia.
When a business is privatized there is one mission - money, now. With nationalization, it will not do Russia good to splurge it's assests right now and then have none later. As Putin has stated, Russia doesn't need to be the world's biggest oil producer - even tho it now is.


To sum up your argument: Putin is not good like the large majority of Russia's people think because, even tho he nationalized the oil industy, its growth has slowed. But there turns out to be no reason why a slowed growth is bad, so I think you're just craving anything to attack him for with a personal chip on your shoulder, not an objective look.


Besides what Putin has done concerning Russia's economy, there are other issues, such as how he handles US relations, & the politics in the Middle East, that has lead to his people liking him. With another leader these areas could have been handled very badly, and most likely would have resulted in disaster. Yeltson before him was a tool of the US.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: Disco Cat]
    #7502088 - 10/09/07 04:22 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Disco Cat said:
Please, don't go into a quote fest,




Are you in town all week? Where can I get tickets?


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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: zorbman]
    #7502089 - 10/09/07 04:23 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zorbman said:
Quote:

Actually, believing that Putin is behind the assassination.. is the strawman.

Show me where I stated Putin ordered her assassination.

Sorry, that's a strawman.








You responded to Cracka X, who suggested that reporters die when they criticize the gov't, and highlighted "journalist" and "assassinated" in an article that suggestively tied the assassination to her article to Russian military criticism.
Apart from the supposed connection to Russia's government, the assassination of this reporter holds no meaning for Cracka X's post.

Incredible that I understood the implications of you highlights when they managed to escape even yourself. Now, if you're trying to divide a connection between Putin and Russia's government, that is suprising.


Now, are you saying that the strawman is that I connected your suggestion of a reporter's assassination to be tied to Putin, or that I pointed out that it is in fact a strawman to believe believe that any such connection exists when the only motive is that the reporter wrote an anti-Putin article before being assassinated?
I don't think either of those are actually "strawman."


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: Disco Cat]
    #7502104 - 10/09/07 04:26 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

If russia is doing good with oil then the european countries and NATO countries are doing badly, its shameful to see how Putin uses oil a tool in geopolitics to get his way, such as what Putin is doing to Georgia and the EU with their shit inflated gas prices...

And how bout Putin claiming chechens killed off Anna Politikovskaya after exposing Putin for the liar and communist that he is, him and his ex-spetsnaz buddies think they have the authority to go around the world liquidating their enemies with poison, disrespecting laws of other countries.

The position Putin is putting himself in is nothing short of a totalitarian state, controlled by a strongman who reigns his people with persistent propaganda, even Bush couldnt succeed in the ways of propaganda Putin has accomplished. Its quite amazing actually.


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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7502134 - 10/09/07 04:38 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Disco Cat said:
Please, don't go into a quote fest,




Are you in town all week? Where can I get tickets?





While I generally took on large amounts of data at a time and put as much together as I could without making points inelligable, zorb made every single sentence into its own quote, creating many short points for me to have to repond to with many short counter-points. Thanks for almost thinking.


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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: Disco Cat]
    #7502135 - 10/09/07 04:38 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Dance around the issue all you want, the fact remains that I did not state that Putin was personally behind the assassination as you charged.

And yes, that is a strawman.


--------------------
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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: Disco Cat]
    #7502217 - 10/09/07 05:07 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Please, don't go into a quote fest, condense your points as much as possible.




Take your own advice.

Quote:

Maybe another Yeltson is what you're thinking of?




Yet another strawman.

Quote:

You quoted that piece and argued that another leader would have done better (while they could not without nationalization), so clearly you were not understanding something.




You have not presented an argument as to why nationalization is better. You saying it is so does not make it so.

I will put this up for a vote for anyone reading this thread:

Who does a better job of efficiently managing resources: the government or the private sector?

Quote:

[lower production]actually means conserved profits, and conserved resources for other uses, not forgone ones.




"Conserved" profits? You really should consider becoming an accountant or economist with language like that.  :grin:

Quote:

If Putin wants to decrase oil production, then he is obviouly going to limit its growth right now, even if he hasn't yet put a cap on it




So provide some evidence the dropoff is intentional on Putin's part.

Quote:

It doesn't matter, you used it [president for life] as sarcram, and it would not be legal, as you argued




Reading comprehension alert.

I did not argue it would be legal unless the law was changed.


--------------------
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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #7502225 - 10/09/07 05:09 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

The_Red_Crayon said:
If russia is doing good with oil then the european countries and NATO countries are doing badly, its shameful to see how Putin uses oil a tool in geopolitics to get his way, such as what Putin is doing to Georgia and the EU with their shit inflated gas prices...

And how bout Putin claiming chechens killed off Anna Politikovskaya after exposing Putin for the liar and communist that he is, him and his ex-spetsnaz buddies think they have the authority to go around the world liquidating their enemies with poison, disrespecting laws of other countries.

The position Putin is putting himself in is nothing short of a totalitarian state, controlled by a strongman who reigns his people with persistent propaganda, even Bush couldnt succeed in the ways of propaganda Putin has accomplished. Its quite amazing actually.




This is probably the most disinformed post in the thread, & Politikovskaya's murder was already touched upon. The sentiments you present show that Bush's gov't and others have gotten away with a lot more propaganda than you think.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: Disco Cat]
    #7502255 - 10/09/07 05:20 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Disco Cat said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Disco Cat said:
Please, don't go into a quote fest,




Are you in town all week? Where can I get tickets?





While I generally took on large amounts of data at a time and put as much together as I could without making points inelligable, zorb made every single sentence into its own quote, creating many short points for me to have to repond to with many short counter-points. Thanks for almost thinking.




I feel humbled before your ability to take in so much data at once. I am also endlessly impressed by your commanding tone not to mention your incredible ability to squeeze eleven quotes into a reply without making it a, shudder, quotefest.


--------------------


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: Disco Cat]
    #7502268 - 10/09/07 05:23 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

In what way is it disinformed, I believe Gazprom bullied Ukraine by threatening to cut oil supplies to keep them from joining Nato, they conducted "probably" a state and public run mass DDOS attack on Estonian infrastructure.

Considering Russia is the supplier for most EU nations, they lately have been inflating their gas in EU, if you think gas is bad in Canada or US, Europe has incredibly exorbitant gas prices, the reason for this is the limited supply and overpricing from Russian oil sources.


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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7502269 - 10/09/07 05:23 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

And just think zap, if I had quoted every sentence seperately I could have trippled that number!


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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: Disco Cat]
    #7502274 - 10/09/07 05:24 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Just a little bit of background for those unfamiliar with this woman:

Anna Politkovskaya was a Russian journalist and human rights activist well known for her opposition to the Chechen conflict and Russian president Putin.

She was shot dead in the elevator of her apartment building on October 7, 2006, the birthday of Vladimir Putin.

[ Putin ] was publicly accused by Alexander Litvinenko of ordering her murder. Litvinenko subsequently died from poisoning by radioactive polonium."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Politkovskaya


--------------------
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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: Disco Cat]
    #7502275 - 10/09/07 05:24 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Disco Cat said:
And just think zap, if I had quoted every sentence seperately I could have trippled that number!




Only you, my friend, only you.


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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #7502300 - 10/09/07 05:30 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

I believe Gazprom bullied Ukraine by threatening to cut oil supplies




The bullying is blatantly obvious to anyone but Putin apologists like DiscoCat. But he thinks Putin is a genius.

I think I am going to get him a Putin poster to put over his bed. :grin:


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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: zorbman]
    #7502347 - 10/09/07 05:38 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

You're taking this backwards, zorb.

Try and explain how mentioning Yeltson was a strawman. Good leaders aren't the norm.

Under privatization profits go to private companies. Under nationalization profits go to the government and can be used to improve the country.

I shouldn't have to argue that a lack of increased production would be intentional, and is not an accident that is going by unnoticed.
Instead, the burden of proof is actually on you to prove that the decrease of production is happeneing against Putin's desire.


Quote:

Reading comprehension alert.

I did not argue it would be legal unless the law was changed.



You actually adressed that already. Memory alert?

You also posted it in response to "it'd all be happening within the rules and his country wants it to happen."

So if laws had to be changed it wouldn't be happeneing within the rules that be. To quote you, "Reading comprehension alert."


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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: zorbman]
    #7502378 - 10/09/07 05:45 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zorbman said:
Just a little bit of background for those unfamiliar with this woman:

Anna Politkovskaya was a Russian journalist and human rights activist well known for her opposition to the Chechen conflict and Russian president Putin.

She was shot dead in the elevator of her apartment building on October 7, 2006, the birthday of Vladimir Putin.

[ Putin ] was publicly accused by Alexander Litvinenko of ordering her murder. Litvinenko subsequently died from poisoning by radioactive polonium."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Politkovskaya




And what better way to be discreet about a murder than to commit it on your birthday. And what better way to cover up the murder than to publicly murder the person who publicly accuses you of the previous murder.

The world would be doomed if the thinking capacity of people was like this.


Also, you just argued I was wrong to pick up on any implications the Putin was responsible for this woman's murder from your posts. Yet again...


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: Disco Cat]
    #7502406 - 10/09/07 05:54 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

The FSB poisoned Ibn Kattaeb, they've poisoned numerous others, Litvenenko, it sure seems pretty coincidental ya know, same M.O., I also like how Putin pins it on Boris Berevosky like he's behind a vast conspiracy to make Putin look bad.

What a insane leader, he makes Bush look like Gandhi.


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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: Disco Cat]
    #7502414 - 10/09/07 05:57 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Try and explain how mentioning Yeltson was a strawman.




Sigh.

I did not specify Yeltsin or any other leader. You are the one who suggested I thought he was a better leader. I had not mentioned his name once in this discussion.

That is a strawman.

Stop putting words into my mouth- it is a dishonest debate tactic.
If you want to continue discussing this you should cut it out. You have done it at least four times now.

Quote:

Under nationalization profits go to the government and can be used to improve the country.




Yes, and the profits are used to support the state and what the state thinks is important. Socialism and central planning of economies are notoriously inefficient. Hence the lower rate of production largely due to Boss Putin's habit of appointing cronies to run Russia's oil and gas industry.

Quote:

You actually adressed that already. Memory alert?




Yes, I addressed it again because you failed to comprehend my point that it would be legal if the law was changed to allow Putin to be President-for-Life.

Quote:

I shouldn't have to argue that a lack of increased production would be intentional




If you want to be believed you can argue it.

Your choice.

Personally I'm not buying it.


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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: Disco Cat]
    #7502441 - 10/09/07 06:05 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

And what better way to be discreet about a murder than to commit it on your birthday. And what better way to cover up the murder than to publicly murder the person who publicly accuses you of the previous murder.




It is actually a very effective tactic. The mafia did stuff like this all the time. Nothing spreads fear like killing people with impunity, openly and brazenly.

And having someone murdered on your birthday sends a very strong message to any future critics or those who want to shine a light on your activities.

If you also appointed your crony as the investigator and prosecutor in the subsequent murder investigation you would ensure the tracks never lead back to you.

You still haven't commented on Putin appointing his former classmate as the investigator and prosecutor in the journalist's murder investigation.

Does that not concern you at all?

Oh, I forgot. Putin can do no wrong. :smirk:


--------------------
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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #7502517 - 10/09/07 06:29 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

The_Red_Crayon said:
In what way is it disinformed, I believe Gazprom bullied Ukraine by threatening to cut oil supplies to keep them from joining Nato, they conducted "probably" a state and public run mass DDOS attack on Estonian infrastructure.




No.
Russia has been supplying countries such as Ukraine and Belarus with heavily subsidized gas prices. Ukrainian households had been paying even less than Russian households for gas. Russia wanted to bring them up to market costs.
Ukraine was opposed and threatened to steal gas from Russia that was passing through its pipes on the way to supply Europe.
At that point Gazprom threatened to cut off Ukranian oil supplies if a price dispute was not settled by a certain date. The dispute ended when the price was setteled on, tho Ukraine still pays less than other countries.


Belarus failed to honor a agreement between themselves and Russia, ended up costing Russia billions each year, so Russia put an oil export toll on Belarus - who was still paying only a third of other coutries for oil. Belarus began siphoning Russian gas through a pipeline which feeds several other countries. Russia cut off the gas.

Concerning Georgia, during the winter, some explosions took down Russian supply capabilities of gas to Georgia. I don't think Russia blew up its own gas and electricity lines.


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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #7502633 - 10/09/07 06:57 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

The_Red_Crayon said:
The FSB poisoned Ibn Kattaeb, they've poisoned numerous others, Litvenenko, it sure seems pretty coincidental ya know, same M.O., I also like how Putin pins it on Boris Berevosky like he's behind a vast conspiracy to make Putin look bad.




"Mr Berezovsky said he had dedicated much of the last six years to "trying to destroy the positive image of Putin" that many in the west held, portraying him whenever possible as a dangerously anti-democratic figure."


That Boris Berezovsky? Yeah, what's Putin thinking. I'm glad people like you who've got it all figured out are around to fill the rest of us in.

And how about this?:

In 1996, Paul Klebnikov of Forbes magazine wrote an article that "portrayed Berezovsky as a mafia boss who had his rivals murdered."

Paul Klebnikov was murdered in Moscow on July 9, 2004.


It couldn't have been Berezovsky who murdered a reporter and former FSB agent to make Putin look bad, could it? Of course not, you know what you're talking about, right?



Also:


Boris Berevosky has arrest warrents out for him in Brazil, the Netherlands, and Russia on charges of embezzlment, money laundering, and plotting violent overthrow of government.


In January 2006, Berezovsky stated in an interview to a Moscow based radio station that he was working on overthrowing the administration of Vladimir Putin by force.

On April 13, 2007, in an interview with the British newspaper The Guardian, Berezovsky declared that he is plotting a new Russian revolution to overthrow the regime of Vladimir Putin.

"In recent years, Berezovsky has gone into business with Neil Bush, the younger brother of U.S. President George W. Bush"

"We need to use force to change this regime," he said. "It isn't possible to change this regime through democratic means. There can be no change without force, pressure." Asked if he was effectively fomenting a revolution, he said: "You are absolutely correct." - B.B.


And there's even more. But why go into all this, I mean, there's no chance you aren't clueless is dismissing this man in favor of Putin, right?
Well, I have my doubts.


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: Disco Cat]
    #7502652 - 10/09/07 07:02 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

What motive does he gain from killing the anti-kremlin journalist?
What motive does he gain from killing Litvenenko? Why did Russia appoint the suspect in the Litvinenko killing as a cabinent minister?
Even though Russia blocked extradation.

Putin has everything to gain from liquidating his critics, the assassinations are incredibly complicated, like state-funded complicated. You are calling the kettle black if you think im as any brainwashed as you... It sounds like you jack off to Voice of Russia broadcasts.


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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #7502774 - 10/09/07 07:30 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Pretty defensive. Looking over my two responses to you, I can happily announce zero usage of propaganda.

One was a step by step recital of events in Belarious-Ukranian-Georgian-Russian gas relations. You can research them anywhere, try wikipedia for a run down.

The second post is quotes from Boris Berezovsky himself.
I have not said Boris is the culprit. I acknowledge he is a very good suspect, much more appropriate than Putin.

Q: What motive does he gain from killing the anti-kremlin journalist?
A: Boris Berezovsky's self stated mission is to "destroy the positive image of Putin"

Q: What motive does he gain from killing Litvenenko?
A: Boris Berezovsky's self stated mission is to "destroy the positive image of Putin"

Q: Why did Russia appoint the suspect in the Litvinenko killing as a cabinent minister?
Even though Russia blocked extradation.
A: Andrei Lugovoi has not beet appointed cabinet minister.
A: The Constitution of Russia, like that of France, Germany, Austria, China and Japan, forbids extradition of its citizens to foreign countries (Art. 61). Here is the constitution Russia has agreed to try Andrei Lugovoi at home if Britain presents the evidence. Britian has not.



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Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: zorbman]
    #7502873 - 10/09/07 07:56 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zorbman said:
Sigh.

I did not specify Yeltsin or any other leader. You are the one who suggested I thought he was a better leader. I had not mentioned his name once in this discussion.

That is a strawman.

Stop putting words into my mouth- it is a dishonest debate tactic.
If you want to continue discussing this you should cut it out. You have done it at least four times now.



I never suggested you thought he was a better leader. Reading comprehension, please employ it. The problem with you and strawman, is that you use it repeatedly as an excuse where it does not apply to write off your ignorance.
As for the previous cases of putting words in your mouth, I have high suspicions that these also likely amount to your reading comprehension skill, or lack thereof, and your "dishonest tactic" plea amounts to a desperation to sound like the man after being so clueless concerning so much.
This is not so much a discussion as it is an unwilling education on your part. Feel free to keep ignoring reality tho, I don't expect anything different at this point.


Quote:


Yes, and the profits are used to support the state and what the state thinks is important. Socialism and central planning of economies are notoriously inefficient. Hence the lower rate of production largely due to Boss Putin's habit of appointing cronies to run Russia's oil and gas industry.



Is this you trying to dance around the fact that you didn't understand what nationalization meant? I realized you must not know a long time ago, and said as much. Then you asked how it benefits the country as opposed to privatization, and so I plainly explained. Russia has benefitted from the revenue of this nationalization, which would not have happened without Putin.



Quote:


Yes, I addressed it again because you failed to comprehend my point that it would be legal if the law was changed to allow Putin to be President-for-Life.



Atually I said that what Putin was doing was within the rules, as in within existing rules, not ones that don't exist, and so there was nothing to excuse - even though the article wasn't even a Russian one and so needed no excuse.
Your follow up to said "it would be legal," not "it would be legal if Russia rewrote their legal rules," which would have been a nonsense reply after I just explained there was nothing to excuse simply because of the fact that the move actually fit their rules - again, that would be rules that exist, not rules that don't exist.

Again, to use your own lines (fittingly, I should add), reading comprehension: use it, dancing around:stop it.


Quote:


If you want to be believed you can argue it.

Your choice.

Personally I'm not buying it.



Good for you. It's your own rediculousness tho.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: Disco Cat]
    #7502914 - 10/09/07 08:09 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

> A: The Constitution of Russia, like that of France, Germany, Austria, China and Japan, forbids extradition of its citizens to foreign countries

A very misleading (almost to the point of inaccurate) comparison.


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Just another spore in the wind.


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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: zorbman]
    #7502915 - 10/09/07 08:09 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zorbman said:
Quote:

I believe Gazprom bullied Ukraine by threatening to cut oil supplies




The bullying is blatantly obvious to anyone but Putin apologists like DiscoCat. But he thinks Putin is a genius.

I think I am going to get him a Putin poster to put over his bed. :grin:




This is really funny in light of my posting the order of events for The_Red_Crayon. It reveals that you didn't know anything about it, but were desperate enough to deliver a jab that you assumed someone else had their facts straight enough and so jumped on the wagon.


Quote:

You still haven't commented on Putin appointing his former classmate as the investigator and prosecutor in the journalist's murder investigation.

Does that not concern you at all?

Oh, I forgot. Putin can do no wrong. :smirk:




This is also funny. It appears as though you are riding a high, feeling smug after your last faux pas, still believing the wagon you're riding is a sound one.
I actually commented on that far back.

The smirk is the finishing touch.


Well, I think that's enough for me. Enjoy yourselves!


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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: Seuss]
    #7502923 - 10/09/07 08:11 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> A: The Constitution of Russia, like that of France, Germany, Austria, China and Japan, forbids extradition of its citizens to foreign countries

A very misleading (almost to the point of inaccurate) comparison.




So you're saying those other countries don't forbid extradition of their own citizens?
Clarify that, if you will, please, even tho it's besides the point concerning Russia's own law.
While I didn't read their constitutions, Wikipedia provided the comparison and the Russian constitution along with it.


Edited by Disco Cat (10/09/07 08:17 PM)


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: Disco Cat]
    #7502953 - 10/09/07 08:22 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Weren't you the same poster who was defending Ahmadinejad as well, You sure seem to love defending despotism, and quit acting like you scored some trivial point over us. Just because you regurgitate bullshit doesn't mean its anymore credible.

To me its completely obvious Putin is a despot, as well as Ahmadinejad, I guess for some its hard to see that.


Edited by The_Red_Crayon (10/09/07 08:31 PM)


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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #7502991 - 10/09/07 08:33 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

The_Red_Crayon said:
Weren't you the same poster who was defending Ahmadinejad as well, You sure seem to love defending despotism, and quit acting like you scored some jovial point over us. Just because you regurgitate bullshit doesn't mean its anymore credible.

To me its completely obvious Putin is a despot, as well as Ahmadinejad, I guess for some its hard to see that.




Scored points? No, that's tres lame. That's what I was just calling zorb on visibly doing.
I defended Ahmadinejad only as far as the public facts go. A lot of the antagonism against him is sentiment based, not logic based, just like Putin obviously being a despot to you, and your denounciation of the cold, hard, researchable, verifiable, facts as bullshit, just coz it showed your position was unsound, is sentiment based, not logic based.


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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: Seuss]
    #7502996 - 10/09/07 08:34 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> A: The Constitution of Russia, like that of France, Germany, Austria, China and Japan, forbids extradition of its citizens to foreign countries

A very misleading (almost to the point of inaccurate) comparison.




Nope, nothing misleading about it. I just verified individually (apart from China, didn't come across information either way) that each of these nation's constitutions deny the extradition of their citizens.


Edited by Disco Cat (10/09/07 08:42 PM)


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: Disco Cat]
    #7503006 - 10/09/07 08:37 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Well i just scanned an old post and you remarked how the hanging of the two gays was because they were convicted of rape, this is completely wrong I remembered when it happened and still have the picture set from all those years.

Iran routinely hangs homosexuals, something you deny and something that is widely a fact, this is besides the point because Saudia Arabia and numerous other arab states execute homosexuals as well, but the fact you would deny this is ridiculous.

Sorry to get off tangent, back onto Russia.


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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #7503049 - 10/09/07 08:49 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Wrong, I don't deny it, I don't know much about it, but I deny that case as being an example, and of it having anything to do with demostrating that Ahmadinejad is a monster (as that case was the working of citizens, and Ahmadinejad certainly did not invent or alter homosexual persecution for his nation) - another sentiment based assault.
In that case you are mentioning, research will show that the charge for which they were hanged was rape. But that's gotta be wrong, coz you remember when it happened?
Bump that thread or pm me if you have more to say on that.


Edited by Disco Cat (10/09/07 08:57 PM)


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Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: Disco Cat]
    #7503578 - 10/09/07 10:59 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Then you asked how [nationalization] benefits the country as opposed to privatization, and so I plainly explained.




You have made a pretty feeble effort to explain it. You just made a basically naked assertion that state management of resources is superior to private sector management. A quick survey of history should demonstrate to anyone that bureaucracies are rarely as efficient as the private sector. You would think the former Soviet Union would have learned that lesson by now but old habits die hard.

Also, please address how it is proper that Putin has appointed his former classmate to oversee the investigation and prosecution of the assassinated journalist who criticized him.

Is this any way to run an honest investigation?


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“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


Edited by zorbman (10/10/07 09:34 AM)


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