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InvisibleDisco Cat
iS A PoiNdexteR

Registered: 09/15/00
Posts: 2,601
Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7502134 - 10/09/07 04:38 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Disco Cat said:
Please, don't go into a quote fest,




Are you in town all week? Where can I get tickets?





While I generally took on large amounts of data at a time and put as much together as I could without making points inelligable, zorb made every single sentence into its own quote, creating many short points for me to have to repond to with many short counter-points. Thanks for almost thinking.


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Invisiblezorbman
blarrr
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Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,952
Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: Disco Cat]
    #7502135 - 10/09/07 04:38 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Dance around the issue all you want, the fact remains that I did not state that Putin was personally behind the assassination as you charged.

And yes, that is a strawman.


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


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Invisiblezorbman
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Registered: 06/04/04
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Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: Disco Cat]
    #7502217 - 10/09/07 05:07 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Please, don't go into a quote fest, condense your points as much as possible.




Take your own advice.

Quote:

Maybe another Yeltson is what you're thinking of?




Yet another strawman.

Quote:

You quoted that piece and argued that another leader would have done better (while they could not without nationalization), so clearly you were not understanding something.




You have not presented an argument as to why nationalization is better. You saying it is so does not make it so.

I will put this up for a vote for anyone reading this thread:

Who does a better job of efficiently managing resources: the government or the private sector?

Quote:

[lower production]actually means conserved profits, and conserved resources for other uses, not forgone ones.




"Conserved" profits? You really should consider becoming an accountant or economist with language like that.  :grin:

Quote:

If Putin wants to decrase oil production, then he is obviouly going to limit its growth right now, even if he hasn't yet put a cap on it




So provide some evidence the dropoff is intentional on Putin's part.

Quote:

It doesn't matter, you used it [president for life] as sarcram, and it would not be legal, as you argued




Reading comprehension alert.

I did not argue it would be legal unless the law was changed.


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


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InvisibleDisco Cat
iS A PoiNdexteR

Registered: 09/15/00
Posts: 2,601
Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #7502225 - 10/09/07 05:09 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

The_Red_Crayon said:
If russia is doing good with oil then the european countries and NATO countries are doing badly, its shameful to see how Putin uses oil a tool in geopolitics to get his way, such as what Putin is doing to Georgia and the EU with their shit inflated gas prices...

And how bout Putin claiming chechens killed off Anna Politikovskaya after exposing Putin for the liar and communist that he is, him and his ex-spetsnaz buddies think they have the authority to go around the world liquidating their enemies with poison, disrespecting laws of other countries.

The position Putin is putting himself in is nothing short of a totalitarian state, controlled by a strongman who reigns his people with persistent propaganda, even Bush couldnt succeed in the ways of propaganda Putin has accomplished. Its quite amazing actually.




This is probably the most disinformed post in the thread, & Politikovskaya's murder was already touched upon. The sentiments you present show that Bush's gov't and others have gotten away with a lot more propaganda than you think.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: Disco Cat]
    #7502255 - 10/09/07 05:20 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Disco Cat said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Disco Cat said:
Please, don't go into a quote fest,




Are you in town all week? Where can I get tickets?





While I generally took on large amounts of data at a time and put as much together as I could without making points inelligable, zorb made every single sentence into its own quote, creating many short points for me to have to repond to with many short counter-points. Thanks for almost thinking.




I feel humbled before your ability to take in so much data at once. I am also endlessly impressed by your commanding tone not to mention your incredible ability to squeeze eleven quotes into a reply without making it a, shudder, quotefest.


--------------------


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Posts: 13,673
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Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: Disco Cat]
    #7502268 - 10/09/07 05:23 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

In what way is it disinformed, I believe Gazprom bullied Ukraine by threatening to cut oil supplies to keep them from joining Nato, they conducted "probably" a state and public run mass DDOS attack on Estonian infrastructure.

Considering Russia is the supplier for most EU nations, they lately have been inflating their gas in EU, if you think gas is bad in Canada or US, Europe has incredibly exorbitant gas prices, the reason for this is the limited supply and overpricing from Russian oil sources.


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InvisibleDisco Cat
iS A PoiNdexteR

Registered: 09/15/00
Posts: 2,601
Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7502269 - 10/09/07 05:23 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

And just think zap, if I had quoted every sentence seperately I could have trippled that number!


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: Disco Cat]
    #7502275 - 10/09/07 05:24 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Disco Cat said:
And just think zap, if I had quoted every sentence seperately I could have trippled that number!




Only you, my friend, only you.


--------------------


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Invisiblezorbman
blarrr
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Registered: 06/04/04
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Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: Disco Cat]
    #7502274 - 10/09/07 05:24 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Just a little bit of background for those unfamiliar with this woman:

Anna Politkovskaya was a Russian journalist and human rights activist well known for her opposition to the Chechen conflict and Russian president Putin.

She was shot dead in the elevator of her apartment building on October 7, 2006, the birthday of Vladimir Putin.

[ Putin ] was publicly accused by Alexander Litvinenko of ordering her murder. Litvinenko subsequently died from poisoning by radioactive polonium."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Politkovskaya


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


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Invisiblezorbman
blarrr
Male


Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,952
Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #7502300 - 10/09/07 05:30 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

I believe Gazprom bullied Ukraine by threatening to cut oil supplies




The bullying is blatantly obvious to anyone but Putin apologists like DiscoCat. But he thinks Putin is a genius.

I think I am going to get him a Putin poster to put over his bed. :grin:


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


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InvisibleDisco Cat
iS A PoiNdexteR

Registered: 09/15/00
Posts: 2,601
Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: zorbman]
    #7502347 - 10/09/07 05:38 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

You're taking this backwards, zorb.

Try and explain how mentioning Yeltson was a strawman. Good leaders aren't the norm.

Under privatization profits go to private companies. Under nationalization profits go to the government and can be used to improve the country.

I shouldn't have to argue that a lack of increased production would be intentional, and is not an accident that is going by unnoticed.
Instead, the burden of proof is actually on you to prove that the decrease of production is happeneing against Putin's desire.


Quote:

Reading comprehension alert.

I did not argue it would be legal unless the law was changed.



You actually adressed that already. Memory alert?

You also posted it in response to "it'd all be happening within the rules and his country wants it to happen."

So if laws had to be changed it wouldn't be happeneing within the rules that be. To quote you, "Reading comprehension alert."


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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Registered: 09/15/00
Posts: 2,601
Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: zorbman]
    #7502378 - 10/09/07 05:45 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zorbman said:
Just a little bit of background for those unfamiliar with this woman:

Anna Politkovskaya was a Russian journalist and human rights activist well known for her opposition to the Chechen conflict and Russian president Putin.

She was shot dead in the elevator of her apartment building on October 7, 2006, the birthday of Vladimir Putin.

[ Putin ] was publicly accused by Alexander Litvinenko of ordering her murder. Litvinenko subsequently died from poisoning by radioactive polonium."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Politkovskaya




And what better way to be discreet about a murder than to commit it on your birthday. And what better way to cover up the murder than to publicly murder the person who publicly accuses you of the previous murder.

The world would be doomed if the thinking capacity of people was like this.


Also, you just argued I was wrong to pick up on any implications the Putin was responsible for this woman's murder from your posts. Yet again...


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
Exposer of Truth
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Registered: 08/13/03
Posts: 13,673
Loc: Smokey Mtns. TN Flag
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: Disco Cat]
    #7502406 - 10/09/07 05:54 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

The FSB poisoned Ibn Kattaeb, they've poisoned numerous others, Litvenenko, it sure seems pretty coincidental ya know, same M.O., I also like how Putin pins it on Boris Berevosky like he's behind a vast conspiracy to make Putin look bad.

What a insane leader, he makes Bush look like Gandhi.


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Invisiblezorbman
blarrr
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Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,952
Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: Disco Cat]
    #7502414 - 10/09/07 05:57 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Try and explain how mentioning Yeltson was a strawman.




Sigh.

I did not specify Yeltsin or any other leader. You are the one who suggested I thought he was a better leader. I had not mentioned his name once in this discussion.

That is a strawman.

Stop putting words into my mouth- it is a dishonest debate tactic.
If you want to continue discussing this you should cut it out. You have done it at least four times now.

Quote:

Under nationalization profits go to the government and can be used to improve the country.




Yes, and the profits are used to support the state and what the state thinks is important. Socialism and central planning of economies are notoriously inefficient. Hence the lower rate of production largely due to Boss Putin's habit of appointing cronies to run Russia's oil and gas industry.

Quote:

You actually adressed that already. Memory alert?




Yes, I addressed it again because you failed to comprehend my point that it would be legal if the law was changed to allow Putin to be President-for-Life.

Quote:

I shouldn't have to argue that a lack of increased production would be intentional




If you want to be believed you can argue it.

Your choice.

Personally I'm not buying it.


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


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Invisiblezorbman
blarrr
Male


Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,952
Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: Disco Cat]
    #7502441 - 10/09/07 06:05 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

And what better way to be discreet about a murder than to commit it on your birthday. And what better way to cover up the murder than to publicly murder the person who publicly accuses you of the previous murder.




It is actually a very effective tactic. The mafia did stuff like this all the time. Nothing spreads fear like killing people with impunity, openly and brazenly.

And having someone murdered on your birthday sends a very strong message to any future critics or those who want to shine a light on your activities.

If you also appointed your crony as the investigator and prosecutor in the subsequent murder investigation you would ensure the tracks never lead back to you.

You still haven't commented on Putin appointing his former classmate as the investigator and prosecutor in the journalist's murder investigation.

Does that not concern you at all?

Oh, I forgot. Putin can do no wrong. :smirk:


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


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InvisibleDisco Cat
iS A PoiNdexteR

Registered: 09/15/00
Posts: 2,601
Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #7502517 - 10/09/07 06:29 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

The_Red_Crayon said:
In what way is it disinformed, I believe Gazprom bullied Ukraine by threatening to cut oil supplies to keep them from joining Nato, they conducted "probably" a state and public run mass DDOS attack on Estonian infrastructure.




No.
Russia has been supplying countries such as Ukraine and Belarus with heavily subsidized gas prices. Ukrainian households had been paying even less than Russian households for gas. Russia wanted to bring them up to market costs.
Ukraine was opposed and threatened to steal gas from Russia that was passing through its pipes on the way to supply Europe.
At that point Gazprom threatened to cut off Ukranian oil supplies if a price dispute was not settled by a certain date. The dispute ended when the price was setteled on, tho Ukraine still pays less than other countries.


Belarus failed to honor a agreement between themselves and Russia, ended up costing Russia billions each year, so Russia put an oil export toll on Belarus - who was still paying only a third of other coutries for oil. Belarus began siphoning Russian gas through a pipeline which feeds several other countries. Russia cut off the gas.

Concerning Georgia, during the winter, some explosions took down Russian supply capabilities of gas to Georgia. I don't think Russia blew up its own gas and electricity lines.


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InvisibleDisco Cat
iS A PoiNdexteR

Registered: 09/15/00
Posts: 2,601
Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #7502633 - 10/09/07 06:57 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

The_Red_Crayon said:
The FSB poisoned Ibn Kattaeb, they've poisoned numerous others, Litvenenko, it sure seems pretty coincidental ya know, same M.O., I also like how Putin pins it on Boris Berevosky like he's behind a vast conspiracy to make Putin look bad.




"Mr Berezovsky said he had dedicated much of the last six years to "trying to destroy the positive image of Putin" that many in the west held, portraying him whenever possible as a dangerously anti-democratic figure."


That Boris Berezovsky? Yeah, what's Putin thinking. I'm glad people like you who've got it all figured out are around to fill the rest of us in.

And how about this?:

In 1996, Paul Klebnikov of Forbes magazine wrote an article that "portrayed Berezovsky as a mafia boss who had his rivals murdered."

Paul Klebnikov was murdered in Moscow on July 9, 2004.


It couldn't have been Berezovsky who murdered a reporter and former FSB agent to make Putin look bad, could it? Of course not, you know what you're talking about, right?



Also:


Boris Berevosky has arrest warrents out for him in Brazil, the Netherlands, and Russia on charges of embezzlment, money laundering, and plotting violent overthrow of government.


In January 2006, Berezovsky stated in an interview to a Moscow based radio station that he was working on overthrowing the administration of Vladimir Putin by force.

On April 13, 2007, in an interview with the British newspaper The Guardian, Berezovsky declared that he is plotting a new Russian revolution to overthrow the regime of Vladimir Putin.

"In recent years, Berezovsky has gone into business with Neil Bush, the younger brother of U.S. President George W. Bush"

"We need to use force to change this regime," he said. "It isn't possible to change this regime through democratic means. There can be no change without force, pressure." Asked if he was effectively fomenting a revolution, he said: "You are absolutely correct." - B.B.


And there's even more. But why go into all this, I mean, there's no chance you aren't clueless is dismissing this man in favor of Putin, right?
Well, I have my doubts.


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: Disco Cat]
    #7502652 - 10/09/07 07:02 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

What motive does he gain from killing the anti-kremlin journalist?
What motive does he gain from killing Litvenenko? Why did Russia appoint the suspect in the Litvinenko killing as a cabinent minister?
Even though Russia blocked extradation.

Putin has everything to gain from liquidating his critics, the assassinations are incredibly complicated, like state-funded complicated. You are calling the kettle black if you think im as any brainwashed as you... It sounds like you jack off to Voice of Russia broadcasts.


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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Registered: 09/15/00
Posts: 2,601
Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #7502774 - 10/09/07 07:30 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Pretty defensive. Looking over my two responses to you, I can happily announce zero usage of propaganda.

One was a step by step recital of events in Belarious-Ukranian-Georgian-Russian gas relations. You can research them anywhere, try wikipedia for a run down.

The second post is quotes from Boris Berezovsky himself.
I have not said Boris is the culprit. I acknowledge he is a very good suspect, much more appropriate than Putin.

Q: What motive does he gain from killing the anti-kremlin journalist?
A: Boris Berezovsky's self stated mission is to "destroy the positive image of Putin"

Q: What motive does he gain from killing Litvenenko?
A: Boris Berezovsky's self stated mission is to "destroy the positive image of Putin"

Q: Why did Russia appoint the suspect in the Litvinenko killing as a cabinent minister?
Even though Russia blocked extradation.
A: Andrei Lugovoi has not beet appointed cabinet minister.
A: The Constitution of Russia, like that of France, Germany, Austria, China and Japan, forbids extradition of its citizens to foreign countries (Art. 61). Here is the constitution Russia has agreed to try Andrei Lugovoi at home if Britain presents the evidence. Britian has not.



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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Registered: 09/15/00
Posts: 2,601
Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: zorbman]
    #7502873 - 10/09/07 07:56 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zorbman said:
Sigh.

I did not specify Yeltsin or any other leader. You are the one who suggested I thought he was a better leader. I had not mentioned his name once in this discussion.

That is a strawman.

Stop putting words into my mouth- it is a dishonest debate tactic.
If you want to continue discussing this you should cut it out. You have done it at least four times now.



I never suggested you thought he was a better leader. Reading comprehension, please employ it. The problem with you and strawman, is that you use it repeatedly as an excuse where it does not apply to write off your ignorance.
As for the previous cases of putting words in your mouth, I have high suspicions that these also likely amount to your reading comprehension skill, or lack thereof, and your "dishonest tactic" plea amounts to a desperation to sound like the man after being so clueless concerning so much.
This is not so much a discussion as it is an unwilling education on your part. Feel free to keep ignoring reality tho, I don't expect anything different at this point.


Quote:


Yes, and the profits are used to support the state and what the state thinks is important. Socialism and central planning of economies are notoriously inefficient. Hence the lower rate of production largely due to Boss Putin's habit of appointing cronies to run Russia's oil and gas industry.



Is this you trying to dance around the fact that you didn't understand what nationalization meant? I realized you must not know a long time ago, and said as much. Then you asked how it benefits the country as opposed to privatization, and so I plainly explained. Russia has benefitted from the revenue of this nationalization, which would not have happened without Putin.



Quote:


Yes, I addressed it again because you failed to comprehend my point that it would be legal if the law was changed to allow Putin to be President-for-Life.



Atually I said that what Putin was doing was within the rules, as in within existing rules, not ones that don't exist, and so there was nothing to excuse - even though the article wasn't even a Russian one and so needed no excuse.
Your follow up to said "it would be legal," not "it would be legal if Russia rewrote their legal rules," which would have been a nonsense reply after I just explained there was nothing to excuse simply because of the fact that the move actually fit their rules - again, that would be rules that exist, not rules that don't exist.

Again, to use your own lines (fittingly, I should add), reading comprehension: use it, dancing around:stop it.


Quote:


If you want to be believed you can argue it.

Your choice.

Personally I'm not buying it.



Good for you. It's your own rediculousness tho.


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