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Invisiblezorbman
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Putin signals plan to hold onto power
    #7473331 - 10/01/07 10:14 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

By STEVE GUTTERMAN, Associated Press Writer
44 minutes ago

MOSCOW - President Vladimir Putin said Monday he would lead the dominant party's ticket in December parliamentary elections and suggested he could become prime minister, the strongest indication yet that he will seek to retain power after he steps down as president early next year.

Putin is barred from seeking a third consecutive term in the March presidential election, but has strongly indicated he would seek to keep a hand on Russia's reins.

He agreed to head the United Russia party's candidate list in December, which could open the door for him to become a powerful prime minister — leading in tandem with a weakened president.

Putin called a proposal that he become prime minister "entirely realistic," but added that it was still "too early to think about it."

He said that, first, United Russia would have to win the Dec. 2 elections and a "decent, competent, modern person" must be elected president.

Putin's agreement to top the candidate list of United Russia sent an ecstatic cheer though the crowd at a congress of the party, which contains many top officials and dominates the parliament and politics nationwide. The move will likely ensure that United Russia retains a two-thirds majority in the State Duma, the lower house of parliament, enough to change the constitution.

Leading the party's ticket does not mean Putin will take a seat in parliament; prominent politicians and other figures often are given the top spots to attract votes, but stay out of the legislature after elections. The 450 seats in the Duma will be distributed proportionally among parties that receive at least 7 percent of the votes.

The popular Putin has repeatedly promised to step down at the end of his second term in May, as the constitution requires, but has suggested he would maintain significant influence. He offered some initial hints at his strategy last month when he named Viktor Zubkov — a previously obscure figure known mainly for his loyalty — as prime minister.

With no power base of his own, Zubkov would likely play his preordained part in any Putin plan. If he became presiodent and Putin prime minister, Zubkov could be expected to cede specific powers to Putin or step down to allow him to return to the presidency. If he becomes prime minister, Putin would be first in line to replace the president if he is incapacitated.

Putin has amassed authority as president, but as he prepares to step down he has been setting up a system of check and balances that would weaken his successor by putting him at the mercy of rival centers of power. By leading the United Russia party list, Putin instantaneously creates the strongest such center, with himself as its head.

The move means that Putin's successor "will not be a czar," Kremlin-connected analyst Gleb Pavlovsky said on Ekho Moskvy radio. "There will be a new center of influence outside the Kremlin."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071001/ap_on_re_eu/russia_putin_9;_ylt=AmRrl_7kj_Rn3EtOuh_AIFkE1vAI


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Registered: 09/15/00
Posts: 2,601
Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: zorbman]
    #7493216 - 10/07/07 12:26 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Times Online
Vladimir Putin rescued Russia from disaster: so let’s just leave him be


Yet again President Putin’s fingers are being rapped: he has apparently been trying to hang on to power. Russia’s Constitution was written more or less to Western order, back in the days when free markets and democracy were supposed to reign. Models were consulted. The French one has a president with powers such that the prime minister is a glorified office-boy; but, in Russia, as in the American model, presidents are not supposed to run for office more than twice in case it goes to their heads.

Vladimir Putin may retire to run Gazprom but instead, quite astutely, he is finding a way to hang on to power. He can put himself forward as deputy for the reigning party, then become prime minister, and push forward, as nominal president, a man in his mid-sixties whom he can control. Such devices are not at all without precedent in Russia. Moving an older or even an aged man, without ambition, into a high office so that he can be controlled from behind has long origins, beyond even communist times. If Vladimir Putin is finding a way to hang on to power, then he is doing so within the tradition. And the very first thing to be said is that he has been a very successful leader of the country.

Not so long ago, Russia was being written off. Wise persons shook their heads. Moscow was like Berlin in the latter days of the Weimar Republic – Cabaret, complete with rampaging inflation, old women selling their husbands’ medals in the underpasses of the ring roads, prostitutes all over the place (every businessman had his story), a collapsing birthrate, gangster-capitalism raking it in and making whoopee in hotels in Monte Carlo. There was even a school of thought to the effect that the whole of Eurasia was turning into a Latin America: a Slavonic culture disintegrating as the overall Spanish culture of Latin America had done, into oil-rich turbulent Venezuelas on the one side, and weird, atmosphere-poor Bolivias on the other, while wars went ahead between assorted Hondurases and Nicaraguas.

Under Putin, Russia has not turned into Latin America. Quite the contrary. Reality on the ground in Russia nowadays is different, and this is not just to do with the recent rise in oil prices. If you go to the provincial towns east and south east of Moscow – Vladimir, say, or Saratov – you can see a successful change going ahead, as people set up businesses such as furniture factories to make up for that lack of consumer goods that marked the old Soviet Union. The university in Saratov has state-of-the-art computers; even agriculture is said to be improving. The horrors of Chechnya are receding into the past and the International Herald Tribune, not a lover of Putin, recently carried an article about the return of order there: the planes fly back and forth and Grozny is being restored after two decades of vicious nonsense including that horrible massacre of schoolchildren three years ago.

Of all things, tourism is being encouraged, and the Chechen insurgency seems to be a horror story of the past. There are other encouraging signs. In old Russia, the Tatars were a very important element, not backward Muslims as was sometimes casually supposed: they were good traders, and their habit of sobriety made them stand out. Now, Tatars have been adding their creative element (two instances that will have British resonance: both Nureyev and Barishnikov are Tatar names, Nur from “light” and Barish from “peace”). The Russians are even marketing an aircraft that will challenge Boeing and Airbus.

So if Putin thinks that he has done well by his country he is not wrong, and masses of ordinary Russians agree. Now, Russia is recovering, and is back on the world’s stage. Why should a successful president be held back by some constitutional formality?

There is no real reason for constitutions to be set in tablets of stone. Referendums were staged elsewhere in the old Soviet continent for successful and popular presidents to stay in office, and it is maybe a measure of Putin’s lack of self-confidence that he shrinks from that. Does he really have to fear the criticism of Europeans, let alone Americans, who now seem to be settling into their own pattern of dynastic politics? Of course his regime is not pure, in the approved Scandinavian manner. It has had to deal with horrible problems of terrorism, and no government can ever be entirely without sin in conditions of that sort.

But Putin has highlighted an aspect of Russia that anyone in London should recognise. Russia, like Britain, is a country with a capacity for tissue regeneration. In the Seventies, you would have written Britain off. And then, lo and behold, in the Eighties she struck back – many, many things wrong, of course, but back just the same.

It is an odd fact that English literature translates best into Russian, and vice versa. Two countries on the European edge, with the same diagonal approach, and very interested in each other. We should not be criticising Putin: rather, encouraging him to stage that referendum.

Norman Stone, former Professor of Modern History at Oxford, is now head of the international relations department at Bilkent University in Ankara

---------------------------------
Comments:

I know, strong Russia (just economically strong) is bad news for many in the west, and even in Russia itself. When Russia was falling apart, when it was looted by the oligarchs and governed by the 'family" of Yelstin, who actually ordered tanks to fire on the parlament, that was a real democracy, the democracy the west wanted to be in Russia. But when the economy is growing 7% a year, when the war in Chechnya is ending, when life in Russia is generally imroving, this is the time to start worrying about poor Russian democracy.

I understand your sentiments very well, my dear westerners.

pressreader, Zasranks, Russia



people who's phones, emails, and bank records are being monitored by their own government need to lay off criticizing other democracies - thats the russian way of looking at things

Denis, Texas,


Vladimir Putin is a true blessing for us, Russians. It's hard to find extremely smart ambious modern man who truly cares about his country and its people - and also capable to be a great leader and organizor. We are really proud of our president and the worst thing would be if he leaves the poltics. Back in 2000 when he was obscure and little known, it was enough to read his first book to see his line of thought, to see that he was the best man for the job, that he will go in the right direction and will give Russia a chance to realize itself.

Some point at the oil revenues as a driver behind Russia's resurgence. Don't believe. Has it been Yeltsin, the newfound wealth would've been a source of super income to those few oligarchs who plagues Russia in the 1990's. Oil revenues by itself would NOT have made such difference - there is not a slightest doubt about it. Though, I have to admit - Russia still has a lot of problems, but they will work itself out if we go Putin's way.

Alexey Makarov, Ekaterinburg, Russia


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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: Disco Cat]
    #7493463 - 10/07/07 02:22 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Vladimir Putin may retire to run Gazprom but instead, quite astutely, he is finding a way to hang on to power..Such devices are not at all without precedent in Russia.




Not without precedent indeed (As if that were an excuse).

Neither are Tsars.

I love how the author presents hanging onto power as a good thing.
If Bush does the same I wonder if he would view that as a good thing?


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


Edited by zorbman (10/07/07 02:29 AM)


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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: zorbman]
    #7493589 - 10/07/07 04:55 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

zorbman said:


I love how the author presents hanging onto power as a good thing.
If Bush does the same I wonder if he would view that as a good thing?




Putin is nothing like Bush. Russia was in chaos after the Soviet Union fell. Putin brought order, Bush did the opposite .


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"


Edited by downforpot (10/07/07 04:56 AM)


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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: downforpot]
    #7494135 - 10/07/07 11:51 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Russia was in chaos after the Soviet Union fell. Putin brought order, Bush did the opposite .




It is amazing what a few years of record-high oil prices can do for an oil-rich nation.

Putin is highly overrated.


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


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InvisibleCracka_X
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Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: zorbman]
    #7494352 - 10/07/07 01:00 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

HAhahahaha, awesome!!! no not really but since it's russia, awesome

Quote:

I love how the author presents hanging onto power as a good thing.





From my understanding russia is the most difficult place to be a journalist. Something like more journalists have died(mysteriously disappeared) in Russia when speaking against their government.

so whether the author is for or against putin, this type of tone may be the only acceptable tone for him to convey it to the public.


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing


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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Registered: 09/15/00
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Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: zorbman]
    #7494485 - 10/07/07 01:42 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zorbman said:
Not without precedent indeed (As if that were an excuse).



He doesn't need an excuse, it'd all be happening within the rules and his country wants it to happen. Also, the writer of the article is not Russian:
Norman Stone, former Professor of Modern History at Oxford, is now head of the international relations department at Bilkent University in Ankara

What's there to excuse?

Quote:


I love how the author presents hanging onto power as a good thing.
If Bush does the same I wonder if he would view that as a good thing?



It is a good thing, because Putin does good, and it is being done without breaking any rules or reshaping them.
If Bush retained power it would be horrible, as Bush does horrible things.
More good = good, more bad = bad... See the difference?


-----------------


Quote:

Cracka_X said:
HAhahahaha, awesome!!!




I agree.


Quote:


From my understanding russia is the most difficult place to be a journalist. Something like more journalists have died(mysteriously disappeared) in Russia when speaking against their government.



...Or so the propaganda goes.

Quote:


so whether the author is for or against putin, this type of tone may be the only acceptable tone for him to convey it to the public.



It's not a Russian article.

Norman Stone, former Professor of Modern History at Oxford, is now head of the international relations department at Bilkent University in Ankara


Edited by Disco Cat (10/07/07 01:59 PM)


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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: zorbman]
    #7494583 - 10/07/07 02:16 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zorbman said:
Quote:

Russia was in chaos after the Soviet Union fell. Putin brought order, Bush did the opposite .




It is amazing what a few years of record-high oil prices can do for an oil-rich nation.

Putin is highly overrated.




Not just that...


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"


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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: Disco Cat]
    #7494640 - 10/07/07 02:31 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Why not just have Putin declared "President For Life"? It would be legal and he could then freely exercise his godlike powers until disabled by old age.

Actually oil and gas profits would be higher under a different leader. I posted an article recently showing how Russia's oil and gas output has suffered because Putin has his hand-picked people running those industries.

When you are blessed with the enormous geological resources of Russia you should allow those industries to be run by the most competent professionals, not Mr. Putin's cronies.

"In the oil sector, output growth was only 2.8 per in 2005, and 2.2 percent in 2006, compared with an average 8.5 percent between 2000 and 2004."

Notice a trend there? Fortunately for Boss Putin oil prices have been spectacularly high which would make anyone look good. There is plenty of money leftover after the incompetence.

"Soon after [State owned] Gazprom finally announced this summer that it had chosen France's Total as a foreign partner to help develop the vast Shtokman gas field, the Russian gas giant chose a St Petersburg shipyard, owned by the son of a businessman close to President Vladimir Putin, to supply rigs.

Gazprom denies its decision on the $2.3bn contract had anything to do with the Vyborg plant's ownership. But critics say giving the contract to a yard that had been at a standstill for 10 years was typical of a growing trend in Russian oil and gas, in which most significant assets - and deals - are concentrated in the hands of a small group of officials close to the president.

Russia's energy sector in the past seven years has undergone a massive transformation from its diverse and largely private ownership under President Boris Yeltsin in the 1990s in the hands of competing "oligarchs".

"This is Mr Putin's personal sphere," says Vladimir Milov, head of Moscow's Institute of Energy Policy."

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/deb091cc-7082-11dc-a6d1-0000779fd2ac.html

The trend in Russia is concentration of wealth and power in the hands of Mr. Putin and his buddies.

Does this bode well for democracy in Russia?

Has it ever anywhere?


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: Cracka_X]
    #7494791 - 10/07/07 03:04 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

From my understanding russia is the most difficult place to be a journalist. Something like more journalists have died(mysteriously disappeared) in Russia when speaking against their government.




Putin’s Crony to Become Lead Prosecutor

"Any hopes for transparency in Russia’s judicial branch were firmly dashed in late June when the government announced that a special council will be created within the General Prosecution Office. Its new leader: Alexander Bastrykin, one of Vladimir Putin’s former classmates. Currently a deputy at the General Prosecution Office, Bastrykin will investigate the country’s most significant criminal cases, such as the murder of Anna Politkovskaya. (Politkovskaya, a journalist and ardent critic of Putin’s government, was assassinated after publishing an article describing Russian military atrocities in Chechnya.)

Bastrykin apparently will also be given jurisdiction over the murder investigation of Alexander Litvinenko, the ex-KGB agent who was poisoned in London. Bastrykin’s appointment likely means that another Putin crony will have far-reaching prosecutorial powers, possibly surpassing those currently held by the General Prosecution Office."

http://www.energytribune.com/articles.cfm?aid=606


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: zorbman]
    #7500487 - 10/09/07 05:14 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zorbman said:
Why not just have Putin declared "President For Life"? It would be legal and he could then freely exercise his godlike powers until disabled by old age.



No, there are no legal allowances for that - Even as sarcasm, this doesn't make sense.
The goal is not to extend Putin's power as long as possible, as you seem to think, but to ensure that someone good for Russia is at the helm. Who's to say that Putin will be good indefinitely? For now it's a good move.

Quote:


Actually oil and gas profits would be higher under a different leader. I posted an article recently showing how Russia's oil and gas output has suffered because Putin has his hand-picked people running those industries.



You must not understand that Putin nationalized the energy industry, and so, under a different leader, Russia would not have prospered.

Quote:


When you are blessed with the enormous geological resources of Russia you should allow those industries to be run by the most competent professionals, not Mr. Putin's cronies.
"In the oil sector, output growth was only 2.8 per in 2005, and 2.2 percent in 2006, compared with an average 8.5 percent between 2000 and 2004."
Notice a trend there? Fortunately for Boss Putin oil prices have been spectacularly high which would make anyone look good. There is plenty of money leftover after the incompetence.




How did you come to the conclusion that a lower rate of growth meant anything bad? Where is the incompetence, and where is the loss of money? Are you suggesting that the oil is now not going to get sold? This oil will likely be worth even more in the future, and it will all be sold.

Yes, there is a trend. The output has caught up to demand/Russia's interests. Did you think it could grow forever, or that it even should (obviously you did)? Despite Russia increasing its oil production over the last year (estimates for 2007 are 483,000 barrels a day - a 5% increase), oil exports have stayed the same, while domestic usage is more than covered. Also, Russian oil production is expected to peak in 2010.
Meanwhile, Putin has spoken of decreasing the rate of oil production and capping it, which should be for the sake of Russia's best interests.
See below:

Quote:

Turning Off The Taps
Should Putin decide to limit Russian oil production later this year, then such an announcement would be good news for Russia. Russia's balance of payments and the economy in general are both very healthy; Russia does not need more money from pumping more oil, especially if the price of oil increases. On the other hand, leaving more oil in the ground now means there will be more available later. This is very important since there are an increasing number of analysts who think that global oil production will peak or plateau any time between now and 2015. Post-peak, whenever that is, oil reserves are more likely to be viewed as a scarce resource and much more valuable.




So yes, there's a decrease in Russian oil production growth (not actual production), and you've provided an article that also warns about a decrease in oil production growth, but it seems to be done in Russia's interests, tho maybe not according to international demand, and of course none of it equals a loss of money.
You accuse of incompetence, without understanding why certain actions are being taken, and whether they are a good thing or not, while assuming it is not. So then, who is really being incompetent?
The actual concern is that when existening oil fields run out, new oil sites may not have been prepared in time to take over the demand. However, this is still speculation. Whether this actually happens or not rests with Gazprom, who believes it will not.


Quote:


The trend in Russia is concentration of wealth and power in the hands of Mr. Putin and his buddies.

Does this bode well for democracy in Russia?

Has it ever anywhere?




The industry was privatized beforehand, and there's no democracy in privatization, and neither was there any democracy lost during nationalization.


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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: zorbman]
    #7500538 - 10/09/07 05:50 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Putin hiring someone he knows doesn't actually speak one way or the other on whether something bad has happened.

So you found us a reporter who was assassinated, great. Now find us one that was assassinated by Putin and your point will have been made.

-------------------

Investigators Know Who Killed Politkovskaya

Investigators know who killed reporter Anna Politkovskaya but have not determined who hired him, a senior investigator said.

"We haven't charged the killer yet, but we know who he is," said Petros Garibyan, head of the Investigative Committee's inquiry into the murder, in an interview published Monday in Politkovskaya's former newspaper, Novaya Gazeta. "But it's another matter to trace the entire process: from the person who ordered the murder to the person who carried it out."

He said he had "curious" leads about the suspected mastermind, without elaborating.

Izvestia reported Monday that those leads had taken investigators to Ukraine, where on Friday they questioned Nikolai Melnichenko, a former bodyguard of former Ukrainian Prime Minister Leonid Kuchma and a one-time associate of Boris Berezovsky. The nature of Melnichenko's possible connection to the Oct. 7, 2006, murder was not disclosed, but he gave evidence that helped the investigation, Izvestia said, citing a source in Ukraine. Prosecutors have indicated that they suspect Kremlin foes abroad -- such as Berezovsky -- might have ordered the killing to blacken the Kremlin's reputation.


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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: Disco Cat]
    #7501802 - 10/09/07 02:44 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Putin hiring someone he knows doesn't actually speak one way or the other on whether something bad has happened.




Do you understand that continually placing your buddies in positions of power and influence is cronyism?

Who is doing this?

Boss Putin.

Quote:

So you found us a reporter who was assassinated, great. Now find us one that was assassinated by Putin and your point will have been made.




Nice strawman.


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: zorbman]
    #7501841 - 10/09/07 03:04 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Actually, believing that Putin is behind the assassination (especially while there is evidence indicting others) based on nothing but the fact that the reporter wrote an article against him in the strawman.

My suggesting that your intended point cannot be made since there is no shown connection is not a strawman argument, it's reason.


You're working thought seems to be "I think Putin did it because I don't trust him, and I think he's that kind of guy." It's not very sound.


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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: Disco Cat]
    #7501843 - 10/09/07 03:04 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

No, there are no legal allowances for that - Even as sarcasm, this doesn't make sense.




Laws can be changed. And making Putin "President for Life" is not something I came up with to be sarcastic. People are actually seriously talking about it.

Even world leaders:

"Putin should be made president for life. Strong rule is needed. Democracy is an American invention…" -Chechen President, Ramzan Kadyrov.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramzan_Kadyrov

Quote:

The goal is not to extend Putin's power as long as possible, as you seem to think, but to ensure that someone good for Russia is at the helm.




Are there no other good leaders in Russia?

Why this constant obsession over one man?

I bet Bush wishes he could control the media to create his own personality cult. It's amazing how popular a person can get when he has the power to squelch dissent and promote himself using state-run media.

Quote:

You must not understand that Putin nationalized the energy industry, and so, under a different leader, Russia would not have prospered.




Did you not bother to read the article I posted? It mentioned that and I am well aware of it. It has contributed to Russia's diminished oil and gas output.

Stop making Putin out to be some kind of genius. Virtually any leader would do well with today's sky high oil and gas prices.

Quote:

How did you come to the conclusion that a lower rate of growth meant anything bad?




Common sense? Lower output means forgone profits. That is what happens when you put your cronies in charge instead of experts. Just ask Bush what happened when he put "Brownie" in charge of Katrina relief.

Quote:

Did you think it could grow forever, or that it even should (obviously you did)?




Of course not, but that is one sharp dropoff during Putin's tenure.

Quote:

Meanwhile, Putin has spoken of decreasing the rate of oil production and capping it




He may have spoken of it but he hasn't done it. Therefore the drop in production cannot be attributed to this. I would suggest you look to the Putin oligarchy for the real reason.


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


Edited by zorbman (10/09/07 04:14 PM)


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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: Disco Cat]
    #7501857 - 10/09/07 03:10 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Actually, believing that Putin is behind the assassination.. is the strawman.
Quote:



Show me where I stated Putin ordered her assassination.

Sorry, that's a strawman.



--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: zorbman]
    #7502050 - 10/09/07 04:10 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Please, don't go into a quote fest, condense your points as much as possible. Besides being an eye irritation, these quote-fests tend to have the least amount of substantial data.


Quote:

zorbman said:
Making Putin "President for Life" is not something I came up with to be sarcastic. People are actually seriously talking about it.

Even world leaders:

"Putin should be made president for life. Strong rule is needed. Democracy is an American invention…" -Chechen President, Ramzan Kadyrov.



It doesn't matter, you used it as sarcram, and it would not be legal, as you argued. Since Putin has refused taking on a 3rd term, it's a moot point.


Quote:

Quote:

The goal is not to extend Putin's power as long as possible, as you seem to think, but to ensure that someone good for Russia is at the helm.




Are there no other good leaders in Russia?



Maybe another Yeltson is what you're thinking of? Tell me why the US does not have a good leader right now, I guess there just must not be any to go around.

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I bet Bush wishes he could control the media to create his own personality cult. It's amazing how popular a person can get when he has the power to squelch dissent.



Interesting suspicions, but that's all they are.


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You must not understand that Putin nationalized the energy industry, and so, under a different leader, Russia would not have prospered.




Did you not bother to read the article I posted? It mentioned that and I am well aware of it. It has contributed to Russia's diminished oil and gas output.

Stop making Putin out to be some kind of genius. Virtually any leader would do well with today's sky high oil and gas prices.



No, you clearly didn't understand that, because my comment, to which you were responding to in this case, which specifically stated that Putin's re-nationalization is what benefitted Russia, was debated by you. You quoted that piece and argued that another leader would have done better (while they could not without nationalization), so clearly you were not understanding something.

Genius? I think that's your bitterness or envy talking. I haven't made him out to be genious, only good - due to his pretty sound logic and reason approach to politics. I guess if it takes a genius to do good things, then that'd make him one.


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How did you come to the conclusion that a lower rate of growth meant anything bad?




Common sense? Lower output means forgone profits. That is what happens when you put your cronies in charge instead of experts. Just ask Bush what happened when he put "Brownie" in charge of Katrina relief.






It actually means conserved profits, and conserved resources for other uses, not forgone ones. Interestingly, Putin's cronies happen to be experts in the oil field.
I think it would be intelligence to suppose that he knew them because he's been working in that field, rather than thinking he threw them into that field to do his work simply because he knew them.


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Did you think it could grow forever, or that it even should (obviously you did)?


Of course not, but that is one sharp dropoff during Putin's tenure.

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Meanwhile, Putin has spoken of decreasing the rate of oil production and capping it




He may have spoken of it but he hasn't done it. Therefore the drop in production cannot be attributed to this. I would suggest you look to the Putin oligarchy for the real reason.




If Putin wants to decrase oil production, then he is obviouly going to limit its growth right now, even if he hasn't yet put a cap on it.
Apart from the knowledge of why growth has slowed these statistics have no meaning. To say that Putin is incompetent is missing the nail completely. To say that Putin's oil management plan is the reason is a little more accurate, and it seems to be a good thing for Russia.
When a business is privatized there is one mission - money, now. With nationalization, it will not do Russia good to splurge it's assests right now and then have none later. As Putin has stated, Russia doesn't need to be the world's biggest oil producer - even tho it now is.


To sum up your argument: Putin is not good like the large majority of Russia's people think because, even tho he nationalized the oil industy, its growth has slowed. But there turns out to be no reason why a slowed growth is bad, so I think you're just craving anything to attack him for with a personal chip on your shoulder, not an objective look.


Besides what Putin has done concerning Russia's economy, there are other issues, such as how he handles US relations, & the politics in the Middle East, that has lead to his people liking him. With another leader these areas could have been handled very badly, and most likely would have resulted in disaster. Yeltson before him was a tool of the US.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: Disco Cat]
    #7502088 - 10/09/07 04:22 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Disco Cat said:
Please, don't go into a quote fest,




Are you in town all week? Where can I get tickets?


--------------------


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InvisibleDisco Cat
iS A PoiNdexteR

Registered: 09/15/00
Posts: 2,601
Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: zorbman]
    #7502089 - 10/09/07 04:23 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zorbman said:
Quote:

Actually, believing that Putin is behind the assassination.. is the strawman.

Show me where I stated Putin ordered her assassination.

Sorry, that's a strawman.








You responded to Cracka X, who suggested that reporters die when they criticize the gov't, and highlighted "journalist" and "assassinated" in an article that suggestively tied the assassination to her article to Russian military criticism.
Apart from the supposed connection to Russia's government, the assassination of this reporter holds no meaning for Cracka X's post.

Incredible that I understood the implications of you highlights when they managed to escape even yourself. Now, if you're trying to divide a connection between Putin and Russia's government, that is suprising.


Now, are you saying that the strawman is that I connected your suggestion of a reporter's assassination to be tied to Putin, or that I pointed out that it is in fact a strawman to believe believe that any such connection exists when the only motive is that the reporter wrote an anti-Putin article before being assassinated?
I don't think either of those are actually "strawman."


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
Exposer of Truth
Male User Gallery

Registered: 08/13/03
Posts: 13,673
Loc: Smokey Mtns. TN Flag
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
Re: Putin signals plan to hold onto power [Re: Disco Cat]
    #7502104 - 10/09/07 04:26 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

If russia is doing good with oil then the european countries and NATO countries are doing badly, its shameful to see how Putin uses oil a tool in geopolitics to get his way, such as what Putin is doing to Georgia and the EU with their shit inflated gas prices...

And how bout Putin claiming chechens killed off Anna Politikovskaya after exposing Putin for the liar and communist that he is, him and his ex-spetsnaz buddies think they have the authority to go around the world liquidating their enemies with poison, disrespecting laws of other countries.

The position Putin is putting himself in is nothing short of a totalitarian state, controlled by a strongman who reigns his people with persistent propaganda, even Bush couldnt succeed in the ways of propaganda Putin has accomplished. Its quite amazing actually.


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