| Home | Community | Message Board |
|
You are not signed in. Sign In New Account | Forum Index Search Posts Trusted Vendors Highlights Galleries FAQ User List Chat Store Random Growery » |
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.
|
| Shop: |
| |||||||
|
HarmReductionist Registered: 04/25/07 Posts: 148 Loc: Hamilton, New Ze Last seen: 10 years, 7 months |
| ||||||
|
So I want to know if anyone else thinks this. When I look at organised religion all I see is brainwashing and this is how I see it as working.
In my experience there are two types of people in organised religious groups: The ones who know and the ones who don’t. They are really easy to distinguish...all you have to do is walk up to someone and start a conversation about religion: if they start listening to you and try to relate what they believe to what you believe then you have someone who knows. If they stand there, refuse to listen and tell you they’re wrong; they don’t know. I have come to the belief that the people who know are fine, maybe slightly misguided; but the people who don’t, and I think they are by far the majority(~95%), who are brainwashed. I believe in the idea of what I like to call personal religion which is the belief that everyone has inside themselves the power to know what is right and wrong for them. That is, there is no true universal right and wrong; just what is right individually. And it is that right and wrong which I believe we can all know by looking inwards and this is where I think the brainwashing starts. We live in a material world. We spend most of our lives living outside ourselves: at work, school, socializing and many people can spend their entire lives living out there without ever pausing to look inwards and this is where organised religion gets its’ foot in the door. We all have a need to feel part of something bigger than ourselves but at the same time we are incredibly lazy so when someone comes along with a 2000 year old book and says this will tell you everything you need to know; we take it. We see everyone else at church happy in their ignorant bliss seemingly fulfilled and want a part of it. We go to church we can be told by a man, in black and white, what is wrong and what is right. And while you’re at it he can tell you exactly how to live your life for you. He can stir up the crowd and make you think that the feeling of crowd hysteria is actually god inside you (see a fundamentalist church service). And to top it all off he will tell you that this is the only one true correct way and that everyone else is wrong just to add to the sense of belonging to this elite and righteous club. Now the really sad part is most people can actually feel themselves saying that this particular religion is wrong for them. They feel like they want to go out and party, drink and do drugs and many of them do before the conditioned-by-the-church sense of guilt creeps in the next day. They know that what is being taught is wrong but organised religion is smart, tricky and it’s had 2000 years of practise. They have a word for that feeling: Satan. “No no,” they say. “It’s not you who wants to party with your friends, drink and do drugs; it is Satan and ‘temptation’ trying to trick you. You must resist temptation, suppress your urges and surrender to the never ending love of god and Jesus Christ”. This is where the grey sneaks into the black and white teachings of the pastor. Now doesn’t that make you sick? I have a flatmate who is currently in the process of changing who she really is in order to fit into the Christian religion and I can tell you it is a painful process. She goes out, has a few drinks, parties her ass off and has the time of her life but the next day “reason” creeps in and she feels guilty as hell. Alcohol lowers inhibitions so now tell me; if god is supposed to be inside you, be such an integral part of you and your soul, why is it that you must rely on learned “reason” and “inhibitions” in order to do what’s right? Now don’t get me wrong, I’m not specifically attacking Christianity here. I think it’s a perfectly good religion, probably one of the better ones out there, and when I talk about people who know I’m talking about the people whose personal religion matches up perfectly with the organised religion they are part of. When I say they’re misguided I mean they still think they are 100% right and everyone else is wrong. While I will agree they are 100% right, it is only 100% right for them and they need to realise that I am just as right as they are when I say there is no god. It’s the people who don’t know that I feel the worst for. They have had their own personal religion suppressed for so long, had WHO THEY ARE buried to the point where they will believe anything they are told. When I try to have a conversation with one of these people I am reminded of the people of North Korea or Nazi Germany. Brain washed. In behavioural psychology there are two types of learned behaviour in humans. Rule governed and contingency shaped. Rule governed is seeing a sign on an electric fence and learning not to touch it from reading the sign. Contingency shaped would be actually touching the fence and learning by being in contact with the contingencies not to touch the fence. As you can see, rule governed behaviour is much easier; you don’t get shocked. With organised religion we see a series of rules that must be followed; with true religion we see people looking inside and feeling what is right and wrong. Now you might say “But Yosef, I don’t just believe every rule I see.” Correct! There are several reasons why we would be more inclined to follow a rule and is just so happens that smart, tricky 2000 year old organised religion uses several of these. 1: Consequences. If you see a sign that says don’t take this cookie or you will be fined $0.20c; the consequences are trivial and you’ll take the tasty cookie. But let’s say another sign says don’t take it or you’ll go to prison. You’ll probably go without. Now imagine a sign that says you’ll spend eternity in hell. It’s a no brainer right? That’s what organised religion wants you to think. 2. Authority. We believe people who are famous and successful. How many of our governments are religious based? How many celebrities thank god in their Oscar speeches? Paris Hilton’s converted to Christianity??? Let’s do it! 3. Past experience. This is where religion gets even the best of us. Most people would have to agree that killing is wrong. Stealing is wrong. Being nice to others is good. We know that and our personal religion probably agrees. But hang on a minute; so does my local church! Wow, they happen to be part of the 10 most important rules in the whole religion. Well I guess if they get the important ones right they must be on the right track. Genius. They actually use our own personal religions to lure us in, to tell us something that we’ll almost certainly agree with and get that positive spiritual feeling flowing before they cram us full with other ideas about how homosexuality is immoral and it is our job to ‘help’ people see the light. At the end of all that their rules seem all too easy to follow don’t they? You bet, and after the first few years of repressing who we are we learn how to follow the rules and ignore the contingencies which show up as feelings and we learn that they aren’t us, as they are in fact Satan tempting us. I could write about this forever but for those of you actually bored or interested enough to read this far I will stop . Except to say this:You know who you are. Just sit down and meditate, go on a spiritual discovery mission, take a psychedelic drug and you will find it. Don’t listen to anyone else!! They don’t know you. And please, PLEASE stay away from organised religion. They are masters at mind control (or should I call it soul control ).Peace, Yosef. -------------------- Well it's alright riding around in the breeze Well it's alright if you live the life you please Well it's alright doing the best you can Well it's alright as long as you lend a hand
| |||||||
|
▪ ● ![]() Registered: 08/19/07 Posts: 70 |
| ||||||
|
I agree 100% with you.
religion is mind control
| |||||||
|
King of Birds Registered: 09/26/07 Posts: 5,486 Loc: Australia Last seen: 2 years, 2 days |
| ||||||
|
Yeah i agree. Questioning and working things out causes your mind to grow. Once you believe you know something you stop thinking. Which is bad enough, but atleast you developed the knowledge yourself. But when someone tells you what to believe, and you accept it blindly, thats the worst. Life is movement and change, things die when they stop changing, they decay.
| |||||||
|
Dr. Teasy Thighs Registered: 12/02/05 Posts: 14,794 Loc: red panda villag Last seen: 2 years, 10 months |
| ||||||
Quote: I believe I'm using a keyboard to type this message.
-------------------- ![]() ![]() ![]() All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
| |||||||
|
King of Birds Registered: 09/26/07 Posts: 5,486 Loc: Australia Last seen: 2 years, 2 days |
| ||||||
|
Its handy for small things like that, so you dont have to analyse the basic things in life all the time. BUt then again the best ideas and inventions can come from analysing the most simple things.
| |||||||
|
Mycoticus psychoticus Registered: 09/10/07 Posts: 875 Loc: North-east USm'f'nA Last seen: 4 months, 11 days |
| ||||||
|
It's funny how you guys blast Christianity but Christ wasn't for organized religion either...course none of you posting this crap know that because you haven't studied the Bible...merely read 3rd party BS on websites and accepted it. Sure Christians are a pain in the ass sometimes and get over zealous but Christianity in itself is simple. If you accept Christ, even your future sins will not condemn you to hell. Just because the Roman Catholic abomination has spread your legalistic follow the rules or else crap[...but that is not Christianity and the RC church was established in 1050AD so unlike their claims they are far from the original church...actually church in the 1st century, unless it took place in a temple was more like a party, drinking wine, catching a buzz and having a good time praising God....I wanted nothing more than to prove Christianity untrue....was a witch prior and was very eclectic...but obviously God get's his way...further than that the irony is I used to stalk and torment Christians as a favorite passtime....and then I saw the truth...It is Ironic how much you guys bash it on here though...kinda gives to what the bible says about all the demonic ideology (basically what you believe) and your hatred is directed towards Christianity...when it should be directed towards the cause...You don't believe in demons? I did long before I was a Christian..You make your own choices but when thoughts jump in your head that are off the wall it isn't you...plus science says instinct takes over everything for survival so what is suicide?
-------------------- aka NHMI
| |||||||
|
King of Birds Registered: 09/26/07 Posts: 5,486 Loc: Australia Last seen: 2 years, 2 days |
| ||||||
|
I think your right rizingfire that christianity has been corrupted by people rather than the actual original belief being corrupt. Although that is hard to tell since known versions of the bible were written along time after jesus death, also it has been controlled and probably changed by corrupt people throughout the ages. I think people also have a hard time putting their faith in a god who they have never met.
Edited by DimensionX (09/30/07 08:04 AM)
| |||||||
|
Dr. Teasy Thighs Registered: 12/02/05 Posts: 14,794 Loc: red panda villag Last seen: 2 years, 10 months |
| ||||||
|
And how do you know that god exists? That Jesus existed? That's all really true?
-------------------- ![]() ![]() ![]() All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
| |||||||
|
Atheistic Mystic Registered: 04/08/07 Posts: 606 Loc: Here and there Last seen: 10 years, 11 months |
| ||||||
Quote: same thing for his belief in god and jesus.
-------------------- Pray, v.: To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy - Ambrose Bierce Medical science has confirmed what the male world has known intuitively for millenia: that scratching your ass is a great aid to complex thinking. Its God's responsibility to forgive the terrorist organizations such as Jaish, Lashkar etc. Its our responsibility to arrange the meeting between them and god." - Indian Armed Forces "Hey Monkey!! Get Funky" - Tarzan and Jane
| |||||||
|
newbie Registered: 08/03/02 Posts: 1,428 Last seen: 7 years, 2 months |
| ||||||
|
Your "religion" says:
All things are relativistic No true universal right and wrong God doesn't exist Do what seems right Aren't you just as bad about the dogmatism of your "religion"? Why are you trying to convert others to your way? Sounds like your brainwashed.
| |||||||
|
King of Birds Registered: 09/26/07 Posts: 5,486 Loc: Australia Last seen: 2 years, 2 days |
| ||||||
|
But at the same time, with all the relgious violence in the world at the moment, can you really blame him for feeling that way?
| |||||||
|
newbie Registered: 08/03/02 Posts: 1,428 Last seen: 7 years, 2 months |
| ||||||
Quote: He might start attacking Christians or something and think that by doing so he is helping the world by attacking organized religion which he views as harmful.
| |||||||
|
explorer ofmetap ![]() Registered: 09/19/07 Posts: 201 Loc: carrollton, tx Last seen: 13 years, 10 months |
| ||||||
|
I think that some people here are percieving more hatred than there is, at least in the OP. That post was very calming.
I know that the church changed after about the 3rd century, and somewhat before that, and your depiction of it is close to accurate (except that they met in their own homes, and there were no official leaders, just one big circle of friends). The conflict between neo-Christianity and non-Christians has me wanting to die sometimes. No one understands the original and so the ghastly war continues. Like I said in another post, no one would know what evil is unless there was some conception of a higher good. Also, the abuses would not be so bad except in the place of something better. Having a personal religion is great, but since we are all the same, the faith would be linked together and synchronous for all of us. Don't have time to post more on that now, meditate on that and peace out.
-------------------- "I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou ![]() "To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald
| |||||||
|
irregular verb Registered: 04/08/04 Posts: 37,532 |
| ||||||
|
everything about the protection rackets is bully-ish
mafia's governments and churches are all entangled in the protection business, a kind of bullying and a kind of caring for children at the same time. the insurance industry is absolutely huge, and secretly they control what might seem to be democratic legislation, Insurers are connected to banking with precision. to do something meaningful we can immerse into these sectors and infuse what humanity is possible, i.e. try not to feed the negative, try to feed the positive.
| |||||||
|
Mycoticus psychoticus Registered: 09/10/07 Posts: 875 Loc: North-east USm'f'nA Last seen: 4 months, 11 days |
| ||||||
Quote: As for the manuscripts there are 7 complete and tons of pieces. The dead sea scrolls had coppies of some of the Bible books and they were unchanged. We have 1st century manuscripts and carbondating says they are that old. I did a lot of research for myself on the authenticity of our translated texts and they are pretty close for the most part. The only one missing a verse is the King James cuz it was translated only from the textus receptus where many translations use all of them comparitively. The creation story however is two different traditions combined and it doesn't specify that Genisis 1:1-2:4 is the yahwist tradition and 2:4 is the priestly tradition...Plus I don't put much stake in Genesis' accuracy because it was paassed down by word of mouth for years cuz the written language was 1-2000 yrs away with the invention of samaritain cuniform. The rest was written after writing had come about. We have things like the septuagint which is from 200bc and is the complete OT...and plent of 1st century anti-nicean writings (a few thousand pages) that back up accepted books, frauds like the gnostic gospels written by known heretics such as Maricon etc, the writings of Polycarp and Clement. Despite the lies of the Roman Catholic Church, you can trace the years that they developed before becoming an officail church in 1050AD and afterward you can see silly things like purgatory and being beaten added to control people...nothing to do with the love of Christ. As for knowing Jesus is real? You're kidding right? His existence is not questioned by historians at all. He is mentioned in a few Roman biographys and the only thing in question was the ressurection. They know He said He was God and was put to death for it. Whether He rose again is the only debatable part of Christianity. The following He had and how it grew in record numbers after the supposed ressurection are all documented...by someone who hated them! -------------------- aka NHMI
| |||||||
|
I Tell You What! Registered: 06/24/05 Posts: 5,998 Last seen: 8 years, 9 months |
| ||||||
|
Jesus is the devil.
Jesus is the devil because the only reason we look to Jesus is so that we can look away from the devil. This makes Jesus transparent and puts us in the bardo state of hell realms so that this is our standard of viewing the world as systematic devils and demons everywhere. What Jesus actually is from the standpoint of non-mind control is us, our actualized self, Brahman, Atman, and then one may simply feel more comfortable calling him Jesus than Buddha or ME because they are raised into a culture which does that and that is okay as long as they know those that don't know run the show, they are the sribes and pharisees Jesus condemns and Leary condemns and many people condemn and we condemn because the story of Jesus is accurately, the story of a man who defied the authorities of man-kind, government, and religion, and radically subverted much of the status-quos to teach inner realization for this he was crucified because people incessantly said he was a demon or otherwise blasphemous though he spake truly and he spoke truly because of this: he was his own authority figure, he spoke from the Father that is, his own inner-God, he was self-actualized and he wasn't afraid to express it so he did it. the Bible attempted to encapsulate this, and if you read it the right way it will work for you the right way and it will be Good but what happens is that as soon as you let any other authority figure (aside from those who are awakened in CONSCIOUSNESS) interpret the Bible for you you are becoming demoniacally possessed through mind-control the exact way television works and the Bible becomes a capstone with an eye in it just like the television is because you aren't using the tool, the tool is using you if you just randomly fip the Bible open to read a short verse whenever you have a question it will begin working as a Tarot or dowsing process and align you with your own inner divinity how do I know I can look at shroomery through IHOP? flip ----- why are you afraid of being persecuted, know not that I will protect you? yeah, the exact message I knew it would give me useful, isn't it? Depends, if it isn't DON'T use it because mind control is convincing you to USE SOMETHING THAT IS EITHER NOT USEFUL OR ACTUALLY DETRIMENTAL TO YOUR WELL-BEING AND THEY CALL THIS THING JESUS (GOOD HEALTH, FIGHT CAVITIES, STAY SAFE FROM CRIME, EAT POTATO CHIPS TO BE AT ONE WITH BLISS JOY AND THE SPIRIT OF GOD, I'M LOVIN' IT!!!!!) and this is what preachers do they they say oh memorize who beget so and so and who beget this man and who he was begetten by before Jeshu-shrub-adub-manningGoddingT no no no no no its you and you have to be your own authority why any Christian should refuse to go to churches, stupid weak sheeple in need of seeing the clarity of Christ-Consciousness drugs are okay what is the stoners favorite verse you know? The only thing I could even have against the Bible is: the violence in it, the judgments against homosexuality but if you know WHAT IT IS then it can communicate with you telepathically through synchronicity and so can internet message boards and etc -------------------- ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
| |||||||
|
Demented Avenger Registered: 03/19/06 Posts: 341 Loc: At the crux of t Last seen: 7 years, 10 months |
| ||||||
|
My take on organized religion is....
If it wasn't necessary, it wouldn't exist. Many need those structures along their way home. M -------------------- Wave upon wave of demented avengers marched cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream.
| |||||||
|
The Minstrel in the Gallery Registered: 03/15/05 Posts: 95,368 Loc: underbelly |
| ||||||
|
I attended Baptist Bible Collage in Michigan. I studied the bible for many years.
.course none of you posting this crap know that because you haven't studied the Bible...merely read 3rd party BS on websites and accepted it. S So tell me dude, but first hold up a mirror and take a good look, who is full of crap? -------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
| |||||||
|
Well-PaidScienti Registered: 09/22/07 Posts: 579 |
| ||||||
![]() yeah, no shit, dude I studied the bible for years as a child. Because I was FORCED to. Just like MILLIONS of other impressionable young minds in American society. its pretty hard to accuse Americans of not knowing the bible. most of us have studied it quite a bit! I mean its not like its hard to come across. the damn thing is in every hotel room in this country! -------------------- "America touts itself as the land of the free, but the number one freedom that you and I have is the freedom to enter into a subservient role in the workplace. Once you exercise this freedom you've lost all control over what you do, what is produced, and how it is produced. And in the end, the product doesn't belong to you. The only way you can avoid bosses and jobs is if you don't care about making a living. Which leads to the second freedom: the freedom to starve." - Tom Morello
| |||||||
|
I Tell You What! Registered: 06/24/05 Posts: 5,998 Last seen: 8 years, 9 months |
| ||||||
|
Christianity is a string that is connected to the posts of the internet users here.
Because there is no consensus of what Jesus is, the name keeps evolving to fit the times, always being evil, always being malicious lie. And so look, we paint a consensus that YES Jesus = Buddha but Jesus is the devil he is RED he is a rising flame. and so when we do this, it is pretty absurd because we are sitting here writing the truth, yet employ the same tactics outlined in OP's post we are being stuck here this causes massive confusion, the Christians will agree with you completely on all the issues you care about then say they believe them too but from the vantage of their inverse paranoia i create a temporary bardo reality where i am sucked into the fear of HELL FIRE such a lie completely to the extent that I begin to immerse myself in it for to say something like this is to rest my finger on their trigger, becuase all they are is a gun Christianity is a gun pointed at you, and you grovling on your knees it is ridiculous evil from the vantage of the devil, for it creates the idea of evil. -------------------- ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
| |||||||
|
irregular verb Registered: 04/08/04 Posts: 37,532 |
| ||||||
|
first you need to be able to relax
such passion such charged metaphors these strike like double edged swords heal and go slow in this area.
| |||||||
|
Justadropofwater Registered: 04/27/03 Posts: 10,447 Loc: The War Machine |
| ||||||
|
Brainwashing is everwhere - it starts when your parents 'raise' you.
| |||||||
|
Stranger Registered: 07/29/07 Posts: 32 Last seen: 16 years, 2 months |
| ||||||
Quote: I agree, and I think only the individual can recognize his own state of being brainwashed and then, if he chooses to, get out of it. Trying to convince someone he is brainwashed will not work.
| |||||||
|
Stranger Registered: 09/24/07 Posts: 15 |
| ||||||
Quote: This is unfortunately far too true, and there doesn't even have to be a reward (like the cookie) involved. Witness the chain mails that tell you a story about a person dying a horrific death, and then tell you that if you don't pass the story on to x more people that the spirit will come back to kill you. Most people, unfortunately, will pass the message on, because "well, it's probably not true, but just in case..." Same thing with religion.
| |||||||
|
Stranger Registered: 09/24/07 Posts: 15 |
| ||||||
Quote: 1. We humans as a species have developed into the 'living in cities working 9-5 to support our lifestyles' far faster than any biological evolution could possibly catch up. That obviously has effects on our physical and mental well-being, though what the effects are is not rigidly clear. 2. In some community forming species, for example, ants, members will in fact sacrifice themselves so that the community has a better chance to survive. Sometimes human suicides parallel this, for example Willy Loman in Death of a Salesman.
| |||||||
|
Stranger Registered: 09/24/07 Posts: 15 |
| ||||||
Quote: I think this is probably the best interpretation of Christianity I've ever heard.
| |||||||
|
DimensionWalker. Registered: 09/30/07 Posts: 70 Loc: Central Florida. Last seen: 16 years, 30 days |
| ||||||
|
The easiest way to sum up that question is " We tell you what to believe, and so you believe it " that seems like mind control to me.
-------------------- I smoke 2 joints in the morning, I smoke 2 joints at night, I smoke 2 joints in the afternoon, It make me fell alright. I smoke 2 joints in a time of peace and 2 in time of war, I smoke 2 joints before i smoke 2 joints, and then I smoke 2 more.
| |||||||
|
Registered: 08/14/07 Posts: 462 |
| ||||||
|
I thought about this a long time ago and how it can relate to other 'factions' that use the same tactics
(EX:) average american: Please salute,and say god bless america! nazi's: Please Raise, your hand and say hail hitler!
| |||||||
|
Spiritual Dirt Worshipper Registered: 01/25/03 Posts: 8,808 Loc: Swamp |
| ||||||
|
i feel ya.
Some people need religion and some people don't(understand it). I can't remember where I read this from. But the quote goes something like this. "You make a raft to cross a river, would you lug the raft with you after you've crossed the river?" Anyhow, the author was relating the raft to religion. We don't need religion 24/7 to guide us through our life, unless you're that certain somebody who's in a never ending ocean. That sounds like more of a personal problem then. -------------------- The best way to live is to be like water For water benefits all things and goes against none of them It provides for all people and even cleanses those places a man is loath to go In this way it is just like Tao ~Daodejing
| |||||||
|
HarmReductionist Registered: 04/25/07 Posts: 148 Loc: Hamilton, New Ze Last seen: 10 years, 7 months |
| ||||||
|
Hey everyone...thanks for the replies. I love a good debate
![]() Quote: Quote: So yeah, I totally get you but I have nothing against Christianity it's just the organized part of it. The part of it that makes it their mission to 'recruit' people. They go for the weak: young impressionable children or drug addicts who are trying to get help (See the 12 steps of alcoholics anonymous. Rule 3: Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him). That is my problem with organised religion. I just use christianity as an example because it is the most prevalent in my society. Quote: First off, here's a prime example of a religious person thinking they're more right then anyone else. Not even acknowldeging my belief as a religion. Good work sir. Secondly your interpritation of my religion is slightly off. Yes I believe all things are relativistic and there is no true right and wrong but when I say there is no god, I am saying there is no god for me. If you have looked inside yourself and found god then god exists for you and you are 100% right when you say he exists, but all you can know is that he exists for you. Western science is influencing your thinking. You believe that if you discover something and you know it to be true then it is universally true. Now this is quite possibly true for anything discovered in the physical world, we all know that spirituality is something not of this earth so there's no way you can claim to generalise from your own personal experience. As for your last comment, when I tell people about my beliefs I am saying "Look inside yourself and find out for yourself what is right and wrong, don't listen to others about what to believe." When you tell others about your belief you are saying "This is what I believe and this is what you should believe. Don't listen to yourself, listen to me because I am 100% right and everyone else is 100% wrong." You are guilty of trying to organise other peoples specific beliefs. I am just trying to tell people that their specific beliefs are already inside them and they are 100% right for them. Quote: Yeah that's it as it applies to bible. Although you seem to be treading on dangrous ground with that 'awakened in consciousness' comment. I personally would do away with the bible, it's too old, too poorly translated. Times change, the answers in the bible are far too old and outdated (see passages about homosexuality, eating meat, having long hair)...besides the answers are inside us all, not some book. Quote: Perhaps but we all have an appendix that we don't need and all they do is cause us trouble by bursting or inflaming. Quote: That is so true, you just have to read Skinners Walden Two to get some idea of the societal brainwashing that happens when we're young and how much we could change things. I, however, would not compare parents brainwashing with organised religions'. I don't know about you but my parents taught me things like how to speak, what things are dangerous and most importantly to think for myself which is exactly the opposite of what organised religion tries to teach. Thanks again for the replies everyone....keep them coming
-------------------- Well it's alright riding around in the breeze Well it's alright if you live the life you please Well it's alright doing the best you can Well it's alright as long as you lend a hand
| |||||||
|
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111! Registered: 01/15/05 Posts: 15,427 Last seen: 6 years, 8 months |
| ||||||
![]() Quote: what is brainwashing? could you define it for us? webster defines it as: 1 : a forcible indoctrination to induce someone to give up basic political, social, or religious beliefs and attitudes and to accept contrasting regimented ideas 2 : persuasion by propaganda or salesmanship Are one of these the definition you would say fit your use of the word brainwashing? It is so easy to throw that word around.... it conjures up this image of some Disney villain wringing his hands in fervor as they entrance someone to do their bidding.... some puppetmaster. Quote: Doesnt this kind of sound like the openminded/closed-minded argument? If they listen to what I have to say, then they are cool, if they dont, then they are obviously idiots. Quote: so they get their foot in the door... at some point in your life. I really think that this fantasy you have in your head is how you see the world.... maybe you are spending too much time ooklgni ardinw. I think very few people in this world were fully "coerced" from simple humdrum living to full blown televangelist. Most people have some cognition (be it real or delusional, doesnt matter right now) which makes them search for answers.... and if during that search, they find someone or something that really clicks with them and seems to be answers or atleast great explanations to some of their question, then they adhere and learn more. I dont really see what the difference is between someone handing a depressed person a bible or some LSD... and the guy with the bible realizes that this materialistic world is fleeting and finds peace in believing he is eternally cared for, and the guy with the LSD who realizes that this materialistic world is fleeting and becomes an ascetic searching the himalayas for his Guru.it seems to me that you would consider bible man to have been brainwashed, even though he came to his conclusions on his own via the bible, and the LSD guy was somehow independantly enlightened. I think you are trying to villainize the entire concept of organized religion through a strawman argument based on one aspect of an extreme form of proselytizing. Quote: what exactly is it that you are doing with this post? would this not be persuasion by propaganda or salesmanship? Did you watch the martin luther king speech? that was a man in black and white telling us what was wrong and right. was that wrong? This is what I dont get.... why does it bother you what other people choose to believe in? if you are so vehement about this "no such thing as wrong or right" (which I adhere to by the way), then why are you so adamant about outing this (fantastical) idea you have about organized religion? Quote: kind of like a fraternity right? or maybe doctors? PETA? EPA? college? this propaganda and crowd hysteria you want to pin solely on religion is all around us, it has pervaded every aspect of our society.... and there is always someone leading the charge. Revolutions wouldnt occur without righteousness. but that is different right? Quote: You dont think that maybe it is a feeling of weakness that overcomes them? that they broke a promise to themselves? Through their religion they have laid out a plan to get their life "on track" and they believe that it will happen by following these rules that they either thought up themselves, or accepted. What is the difference between being on a diet because you want to lose weight, and refraining from pork because your beliefs say so? you made a promise to yourself either way, because you feel that it will make you a better person. Quote: Im sure they really enjoy your pity.... if that isnt one of the most pretentious and self-righteous paragraphs Ill start using apostrophes. Quote: ah, true religion. Now I see. true religion. So, if someone else believes what you believe, it cant be true? Quote: yeah, but who's cookie are they protecting? this is an incomplete analogy. Are you sure it just applies to organized religion? I have talked to tons of people who claim to be an atheist or "free thinker" but adhere to Karma. Quote: so Paris Hilton is in on the organized religion conspiracy? how many people thank their parents in speeches? they are obviously trying to make us believe that their parents are good people. Quote: you are spiraling out of control on this one. Do you check under your bed every night to see if their is a bishop under it? Quote: so... you laugh at people when they believe that Satan is tempation, but write a 3 page, serious essay about how organized religion subverts peoples logic and brainwashes them. I get it. satan=evil persuasion = HA HA organized religion = evil persuasion = serious business. Quote: I am now selling scented candles and incense made solely from Yosef's feces.
| |||||||
|
HarmReductionist Registered: 04/25/07 Posts: 148 Loc: Hamilton, New Ze Last seen: 10 years, 7 months |
| ||||||
|
Clearly you have completely missed the entire point of my argument.
I am not telling people what to believe!!! I can’t emphasise this enough...I am merely making the point that surely, if there is a god or higher being, surely he would have put everything you need to know about how to live your life inside of you. Not ‘out there’ for someone else to decode for you. And I am suggesting that people stop listening to others and listen to themselves. I am not saying anyone is wrong!!! Another point you seem to have missed. Quote: I am saying that everyone is right! Every single person has inside them the knowledge of what’s right and what’s wrong. Organised religion however comes along with the idea that its ideas are the only right and wrong and uses tricks to get people to follow their rules. To try to explain it better I’ll go through your post as you so thoroughly went through mine. 1. Brainwashing in this case would be a mixture of the definitions you give. I believe that people inherently have the knowledge to find out what’s right and what’s wrong so when organised religion comes along, they are trying to make you give up what you know inside you. Of course that’s easy because most people won’t have actually discovered it yet. And they use salesmanship to achieve this. There is no force involved...unless you count making moral standards into laws. Moral standards about drug use were the very reason the laws were put into place, now the police can forcibly take you away and put you into prison and force you believe what you did was wrong. Same thing with homosexuality, but fortunately that’s almost a thing of the past. 2. It’s not as simple as listening or not listening. It’s more of a display of how well you understand what you believe. Try having a religious conversation with a 5 year old; it won’t work because they don’t really understand what they are told to believe. Same with these people who don’t know: they can remember the rules they have to follow but they don’t really understand them so they get defensive and become impossible to converse with. Whereas people who do know can listen and explain their beliefs in different ways to better get across what it is they believe. 3. I completely agree that if people really search until they find something that ‘clicks’ then they should try to learn more but they need to learn it themselves. Not listen to someone else at a church. I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with reading the bible, I’m saying it’s wrong when someone reads it for you and after 2000 years, it’s been read and translated for you so many times that I would personally throw it away. And which extreme form of proselytizing did I bring up? I would consider things such as organised religions going door to door, going into public schools, appearing on T.V. trying to convince people to join their religion extreme forms but I didn’t bring up any of those so please enlighten me. 4. You completely missed the point. What people believe in does not bother me at all, but when an organisation uses propaganda and salesmanship to convince millions of people that what they know inside them is wrong; that bothers me. 5. Group behaviour: situations where a large number of people in a given area behave simultaneously in a similar way and have a similar goal, that might be different from what they would do individually (herd behaviour).. NOT like a fraternity, or doctors, PETA, EPA or college. And yes this is all around us. Look at people in riot crowds or sport matches. Acting differently than they know they should because of the influence of the crowd. If you ask anyone who has been in a situation like this they will tell you it’s a very strange feeling and my point is that when this happens in a church, when the people are jumping around singing; they call it god. 6. I’m sure they do feel as if they’ve broken a promise to themselves but if the punisher was high enough then they would never have broken it in the first place. If I truly believe that smoking a joint was going to really piss god off then there’s no way I’d do it. If someone told me and I only half believed it then I probably would do it. As for your eating pork example; it depends on the reasons behind wanting to lose weight. If you really think that your health is failing and you will get sick and die if you don’t then it’s pretty similar to following your religion. If it’s because society’s ideal for a waist circumference is 10cm smaller than yours then it’s similar to organised religion telling you want to think. 7. This has absolutely nothing at all to do with the integrity of my argument. Please stick to attacking the argument. 8. Again, missing the point. Beliefs clearly aren’t mutually exclusive. In fact I’m sure there are people out there who have the exact same set of beliefs as each other. 9, 10 & 11. Well now you’re the one who seems to be losing it. These are just examples of the things that make it more likely for a person to follow a rule. What you’re supposed to do is read all three and realise that organised religion talk about the most extreme consequences, they are in all ranks of authority and they tap in to past experience. All these things make it easier to follow their rules and when you combine all three; you get a very convincing voice and thus a set of rules very easy to follow. All I’m saying is that it makes a lot of sense when you see people following these rules even if they feel differently. 12. If you bothered to try to understand my argument you should have realised by this point that satan in this case is merely a hypothetical construct created by organised religion to suppress what we really believe inside. When someone tells you something you know is wrong, a part of you says “This person is wrong”. But if that part of you was very quiet and unexplored then maybe you wouldn’t know whether or not to listen to it. Maybe you’d be confused as to what to believe. And this is where organised religion says “That’s not actually what you feel, it is satan tempting you.” This accomplishes two things; the first is to help ignore that inner voice and listen to the man with the book and the second is to make people feel that it isn’t them that are feeling like this. It’s satan. And this helps people ignore that voice next time it comes up, and the next time.... Next time, please try to understand what I say before rebutting it. And as for selling candles with my feces, I look forward to you coming around to my house and cleaning them out of my toilet. It saves me pressing flush. -------------------- Well it's alright riding around in the breeze Well it's alright if you live the life you please Well it's alright doing the best you can Well it's alright as long as you lend a hand
| |||||||
|
I Tell You What! Registered: 06/24/05 Posts: 5,998 Last seen: 8 years, 9 months |
| ||||||
Quote: it is still an invocation of SATAN because the Tibetans, Buddhists, and Hindus will tell you (the Tibetans are Buddhists) that the devil IS GOD this means that SATAN IS JESUS BECAUSE JESUS IS GOD this means GOD IS THE DEVIL Christians cut this right in two, right in two, so that we have an adversary watching us and condemning everything we do. And as long as people tack in bullshit about Jesus such as 'well THOUGH i agree with you that religion is evil, Jesus was....' and then they define Jesus, they are keeping the story alive that we are EVIL SINNERS DESERVE OF BEING BRUTALLY MURDERED JUST BECAUSE WE POPPED OUT OF A WOMB and this is TYRANNY so for one to even say Jesus was a good person, on the one hand, exorcises the demons out of him, for the idea of Jesus is a demon entirely revolving around the fires of a fictional hell and a fear of death....... we also vaguely disempower this line of Christian thinking to say that Jesus is Buddha is all people, which is true but why are you invoking the fires of hell by uttering his evil name? JESUS IS SATAN . the way out of hell to then understand SATAN IS JESUS both sides of the equal are the same. GOD IS THE DEVIL. He created him. It's a merciless fiction because it splits the yin-yang up and keeps us from safely going into nirvana and the higher voids, by imprisoning us in the lower astral realms where we are supposed to sit here and focus upon a God, tyrant figure, and a devil, and Jesus Christ is the mantra we keep repeating to strengthen this terrible great evil demon and give his illusory flames power. Only by putting Jesus and Satan together as one can one evolveso we need to stop giving him good praises, he's a demon archetype. The man who Christ was? First, was Christ a man? Second, the man who Christ was was forever buried in a shadow that no one but a bonafide gnostic can get out of. The Dharma is much more pure. It is not subject to duality. Albeit the Bible is a form of Dharma as long as we sit here and justify 'well Jesus was an ascended master' we are giving the flames of hell power over our minds because then we compare every single good and true thing we've learned about ascension AGAINST our pre-adolescent programs of fear of the boogeyman, and Jesus is none other than that boogeyman, because SATAN IS JESUS which means that there is no Satan nor Jesus that they are part of a whole and that all human beings are kept alive through mutual trust and unconditional Love and then we have the Dharma and/or heart chakra center which comes in through generating compassion towards all peoples, which, yes derrr is the message of Jesus but the TRUE message of "Jesus" (?) is ECLIPSED and this is a strong strong problem if Christianity IS Buddhism why would you follow Christianity if Christianity raped you when you were a child? Now if Dharma raped you as a child then maybe you ought not to follow Dharma..... it all depends I write this because I harbor the archetype of devil/shadow/hell and am liberating myself from it, and this is how you get out. The Bible is a club, it was forged to beat people down, that's why Christians use it that way. Those who don't, really don't care that YOU ARE GOING TO HELL and YOU NEED TO BE SAVED they are called 'lazy' those who fully believe are on a jihad of mental violence -------------------- ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human...... Edited by leery11 (10/01/07 08:13 AM)
| |||||||
|
explorer ofmetap ![]() Registered: 09/19/07 Posts: 201 Loc: carrollton, tx Last seen: 13 years, 10 months |
| ||||||
Quote: Wait... you're saying that because people who have trouble with addictions are seeking help from a higher power, they are being preyed upon by brainwashing predators? WTF?? I thought this aligned more closely with a personal religion like you were talking about. Trusting in God, the essence of love and the essence of life. God is in silence, inside the emptiness of the soul (I know that's troublesome language, but I can explain if you need me to). How is it being victimized to trust something you don't have control over to a higher power who loves you? That seems like the most simplistic, individual thing you can do. It has nothing to do with organized religion. I was surprised they even had something like that in a non-confrontational program like that, but I don't even see it loaded with Christian terminology. It's just very basic. If the alcoholic were to trust themselves with recovery, then they would be draining an empty well. They know that it's beyond their control, that's the whole point. The problem is that much of humanity tries to rely on itself, forgetting that reliance requires leaning on something greater than yourself, or else it wouldn't be called 'reliance'. -------------------- "I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou ![]() "To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald
| |||||||
|
Sexy.Butt.McDanger Registered: 03/12/02 Posts: 24,855 Loc: Pandurn Last seen: 1 year, 12 days |
| ||||||
Quote: We develop knowledge through interaction with reality. We have within ourselves the means of succesfully interacting with reality, through the usage of the sensory data that reality's interaction with our sensory devices produces, coupled with the phenomenon of our mind, yet it isn't as though knowledge lies inherent within ourselves. Knowledge is inherent within reality itself, the process of an aspect of reality interacting with all aspects of reality produces knowledge. Quote: What is the difference between organized religion and any other individual or institution of individuals that propagates ideas in this regard? Everyone has their conception of reality and their means of presenting it in order for others to find it. Some are more effective in presenting ideas, some aren't. That is pretty much the jist of it. Quote: How can anyone force you to believe anything? Quote: It is this way, with humans, regarding any idea or topic for discussion. Quote: What is the difference between deciding to go into a church and listen to an individual propose ideas, and entering into a philosophical/spiritual forum to listen to your ideas? No one can learn for you, so I'm not clear as to how organized religion (an abstract conception of the relationship of human beings) can learn for you. Perhaps you refer to the ways in which some human beings who do not have a mature or developed (relative terms) mind will choose to accept the ideas that others propagate, without employing critical thinking for themselves? "Organized religion", such as it is, clearly isn't responsible for the manners in which individuals choose to utilize their minds. Quote: What bothers you more, that an organization would use means of presentation to bring others to adopt their proposed viewpoint, or that others are incapable of utilizing critical thinking to see past the means of presentation, and contemplate ideas by their own merit? Either way, it is the nature of reality. Quote: The influence of the crowd? This sounds like an evasion of personal responsibility to me, which is certainly not an idea to promote. People act how they decide to act. How have you discerned what others know regarding their actions and how they "should" act? ![]() Quote: Beliefs aren't concrete, simply tendencies of thought. Every individual has different thought processes. Quote: None of this has anything to do with "organized religion", and everything to do with the individual choices of each individual on this planet, officially chartered as a member of such an organization, or not. We all have our influence on the propagation of ideas and memes throughout time. Supporting the conclusion that an abstract "organization of religion" is controlling minds when nothing could be further than the truth seems to feed into the propagation of "organized religion". There is no organized religion, simply the individual thoughts and choices and actions of all sorts of human beings. Quote: This is no different and no more serious than any other way that one human being seeks to exert influence over any other human being. We love to define each other; it keeps us from having to face our own insecurity if we can define others through manipulation, instead of bettering ourselves. The clearest reason why "religion" exists is for us to grow and develop past it. Taking personal power away from ourselves and placing it in the influence of a collective of others is our own folly. Everyone is on their own path, and will lead the life that they choose to lead.
-------------------- If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
| |||||||
|
The Minstrel in the Gallery Registered: 03/15/05 Posts: 95,368 Loc: underbelly |
| ||||||
|
How is it being victimized to trust something you don't have control over to a higher power who loves you?
Well for the good reason that there is no real evidence that there is a higher power that loves you. If the alcoholic were to trust themselves with recovery, then they would be draining an empty well. Believing in a higher power is trading one addiction for another. I know some people on this forum who were alcoholic and only recovered when they looked to themselves for "salvation". I have known several people in AA and have attended many meetings. They talk a good talk at the meeting and retell their tale of woe until they are completely identified with it and their weakness and then head for the sugar and coffee. The ones I have known who make it all the way out leave that 12 step thing behind once they realize they created their addiction and they (in much the same way) can end it. -------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
| |||||||
|
Stranger Registered: 02/23/06 Posts: 425 Loc: Arkansas Last seen: 6 years, 7 months |
| ||||||
|
Post deleted by fireworks_god
Reason for deletion: Completely unacceptable behavior for this forum.
| |||||||
|
Decadent Flower Magnate Registered: 09/20/05 Posts: 8,775 Last seen: 3 days, 19 hours |
| ||||||
|
Maybe soon he'll find God and be forgiven for his sins.
Everyone has his own path. "Enlightenment is none other than a pact with the devil." Haha, okay. Whatever that means.
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
| |||||||
|
The Minstrel in the Gallery Registered: 03/15/05 Posts: 95,368 Loc: underbelly |
| ||||||
|
This is what I found out firsthand as I chased enlightenment. Enlightenment is none other than a pact with the devil. It is selling out to freedom in this world. Selling your soul.
I must be enlightened then because this is a current picture of me.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
| |||||||
|
explorer ofmetap ![]() Registered: 09/19/07 Posts: 201 Loc: carrollton, tx Last seen: 13 years, 10 months |
| ||||||
Quote: Erm... you mean to say that no one can concieve of God themselves? Where on earth did we come up with the concept, then? Quote: But the way that looking to a higher power works for many people is that it releases the stress of being self-conscious about the journey of letting go of their addiction. God-consciousness releases us from self-consciousness. Even the person who simply lets go and moves on with their life is working within this same type of consciousness. It's called by some 'humility' and 'perserverance'. The problem for most is that we're too danged self-conscious about anything and everything. Anyway, even if there are people who are able to be released without the conception of a higher power, it does not negate the helpful experience of concieving of one. -------------------- "I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou ![]() "To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald
| |||||||
|
Sexy.Butt.McDanger Registered: 03/12/02 Posts: 24,855 Loc: Pandurn Last seen: 1 year, 12 days |
| ||||||
Quote: The barter system. We traded our critical thinking to some aliens for it. ![]() Quote: How do you define "self-conscious"? -------------------- If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
| |||||||
|
explorer ofmetap ![]() Registered: 09/19/07 Posts: 201 Loc: carrollton, tx Last seen: 13 years, 10 months |
| ||||||
Quote: Icelander, we're waiting for an answer. JKIt means to me that the person is struggling to make themselves initiate the process. In other words, they're looking inward at themselves for the source of power and motivation. The problem with this is two-fold: we cannot truly see ourselves, and if we had the power already, we would be able to put it to use without looking at ourselves. The problem, more or less, is that the answer does not reside simply in ourselves, but in some other power which we must rely on. Perhaps it's a matter of re-orienting our mode of channeling another source of power, but if we already had the potential then we would already be fulfilling it without effort. -------------------- "I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou ![]() "To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald
| |||||||
|
HarmReductionist Registered: 04/25/07 Posts: 148 Loc: Hamilton, New Ze Last seen: 10 years, 7 months |
| ||||||
Quote: I fail to believe that there's no way you can rehabilitate a person without god. Maybe that's one way but there are plenty of more reliable and effective methods out there. It's a poor mindset to put people in by telling them they have a disease, something inside them which must be flushed out. We need to find out why they are addicted and then go about setting up their life so that they have other reinforcers about them so as to take away reliance on the drug. God may be a solution but to tell people it's the only solution is not fair. -------------------- Well it's alright riding around in the breeze Well it's alright if you live the life you please Well it's alright doing the best you can Well it's alright as long as you lend a hand
| |||||||
|
HarmReductionist Registered: 04/25/07 Posts: 148 Loc: Hamilton, New Ze Last seen: 10 years, 7 months |
| ||||||
Quote: I tend to believe that if religion exists at all it must be innate. It doesn’t make sense to me for a god or higher consciousness to rely on our experience in order to know religion; this would mean some people know it and some don’t, the luck of the draw, and this seems unfair. Quote: Other individuals don’t have the power or rules as believable as large organizations. By other institutions I’m guessing you mean corporations? Companies telling you how which brand car or t.v. to buy? Not telling which spiritual path is “correct” and if you don’t agree, condemning you to eternal hell. Often to your face. But yes I agree that’s how the world works. Quote: By punishing you repeatedly. You just have to look at homosexuals who are afraid to come out, even to themselves. They know with all their heart that they are gay and they cannot change it yet people like this in many organised religions are still forced to think they are morally wrong. I saw a documentary on it the other night and it just sickens me to see people in that much conflict with who they are and this is mainly caused by the organised religion. If they adopted their own personal religion they would instantly conclude that being gay is ok. Another example might be rehabilitated criminals. They believed stealing was wrong but after years of looking at the world through bars they change that belief Quote: The vast majority of people going to churches don’t go there to ‘listen to an individual propose ideas’. If, say, I went to a church that’s what I would do but most people go there to hear gods word. They see a man reading words out of a book supposedly containing the answers on how to live your life; courtesy of god. They don’t perceive the words as an individual’s ideas; they are gods ideas. Quote: Certainly it is the second. Hence my plea for people to listen to themselves, not others. But the organization which is based on the ideas of kindness and morality, shows a surprising lack of morals when it takes advantage of these people who don’t think for themselves and that bothers me also. And of course it is the nature of reality but if everyone walked around saying that about everything nothing would change would it? Quote: Of course it is an evasion of personal responsibility, that’s exactly what being in a crowd is all about. If you were the only person watching a band play would you be jumping up and down singing along to yourself out loud? Probably not, but in a crowd you would. Why? Because there’s that lack of personal responsibility. When I say how they “should” act I mean how they act normally. If you’re angry with a governments policy you certainly aren’t going to walk down the street and smash up shop windows but if there are already 2000 other angry rioters smashing up the place... Quote: The thoughts and choices of individuals is exactly what organised religion is out to control. If I am offered a choice, I do what I feel is right. When my Christian friend is offered that same choice, they will either try to remember what they were told at a church or they will ask their pastor or church leader on what to do. There really seems like there’s something wrong with that second picture. Quote: Of course it’s the same but as I said before; if we all sit around and look at the world and observe it the way it is then every time we find something we don’t like about it we just say to ourselves “Oh well, that’s the way the word is” then nothing will ever change. What if someone had said that to Lincoln about the slaves, or Martin Luther King about civil rights? All I’m doing is saying that I see a problem in the world and I’m trying to explain it to others. If you can’t see it then there’s no problem for you but if you do see it, then you can tell others and maybe they’ll see it too. I’m just trying to make this world a better place for us all...I mean would it really be so bad if we all just sat at home by ourselves to practise our religion instead of going to a church every week? It would certainly save petrol money and maybe the church land could be made into something more useful. -------------------- Well it's alright riding around in the breeze Well it's alright if you live the life you please Well it's alright doing the best you can Well it's alright as long as you lend a hand
| |||||||
|
Dr. Teasy Thighs Registered: 12/02/05 Posts: 14,794 Loc: red panda villag Last seen: 2 years, 10 months |
| ||||||
Quote: No. Religion is taught. Expanded awareness experiences occur naturally. Religion appeared as a misinterpretation of those moments and so did the concept of god. It is overwhelming for some people to believe that those experiences come from themselves and that's how god appeared in the picture. The rest in history. ![]() Quote: It doesn't make sense to me to believe that there is a god in the first place, so the idea of religion fails as well. Quote: Can you maybe elaborate on that? Quote: Nobody really forces us into anything. It is true that some methods of convincing people are much more efficient than the others. However, those who accept/believe do it because they choose to do it, not because someone threatens them. Those who choose to believe in hell for example, do it because it's convenient for them to do so. Because when something "bad" happens to them they can always find comfort in the thought that those who did them wrong will burn in hell. Because they can use it themselves as an emotional blackmail technique on those who they want to have control over. Because there's always a heaven too and each time they think they did something grand they will inflate themselves with the idea that god sees them and they will get rewarded. This is how it goes in each and every similar situation, we always make conscious choices, even if we want to admit or not. Quote: I will have to disagree with that too. Pushing repeatedly could at best make someone DECIDE to do what I say because they don't want to be "bothered" anymore. Tell me, if a homeless guy comes and repeatedly asks you for change and you finally give him some money, will you be able to say that he made you do it? That you had no other choice but give him money? You might as well said hey fuck off. Or walk faster. ![]() Quote: This is only because they have personal issues. Because they don't want to be treated as outcasts or being made fun of. And this is because they lack of self confidence. Please don't confuse things here, because it's not like religion doesn't give them ant other option but to pretend that they're straight. Doesn't it make you wonder why some homosexuals just come out in open with it, free of any inhibition and fear? How does your speculation apply to them? They grew up in the same society, surrounded by the same mentality and confronting the same people as the others, day by day.Quote: And again... people are in conflict because of their own fears, not because religion obliges them not to be gay. ![]() I have a gay friend and his parents are very religious to the point of insanity and he has no problem with admitting or behaving according to his sexual preference. And why exactly do gay people need a religion to tell them that being gay is ok? ![]() I think that living with a lucid mind and making use of common sense is enough for any of us that there's nothing either good or bad to be gay, It is just an aspect of reality. ![]() Why do we need religion to tell us anything at all? WTF is with all that? Isn't it about time that we finally grow out of it and start living our lives the way we want, without the continuous perplexing feeling that there's someone who's watching us all the time? When we sleep, when we eat, when we pee, when we get stoned, when we fuck... give me a god damn break ![]() Quote: The majority of rehabilitated criminals... go back to jail. It is that well that they learned that stealing is "wrong". ![]() I'm sorry, it's just statistics. And statistics show the inefficiency of "educating" through prison (punishment). And this is how your argument has turned in a contra argument. ![]() Quote: Considering the more than obvious fact that there's nothing to prove that god exists, those people go to the church and pretend (as in choose to think) that they are listening to the words of god, printed on a piece of paper from which the priest is reading. ![]() Quote: Those people are not victims. They are not taken advantage of. It is how they choose to live their lives and make social relationships. It is so because they go to the church, it's not the church who's beating at their doors. Why does that bother you? How does this affect your own personal growth? You're free to live your life the way you want, and so are they. And why do you feel like you have ti change anything? You have the unlimited freedom to do anything you want with your own awareness, mind, and choices regarding your own world. What makes you better than organized religion? From what I see, nothing. ![]() Religion wants to change the world in a direction and you want to change the world in a different direction. All in all, it's all the same bull shit. Quote: There is always personal responsibility, even if we acknowledge it or not. A crowd will never abolish you of personal responsibility, it is just you deluding yourself into thinking that others should be held responsible for your actions. Like I said but I'm gonna repeat it, it belongs to the individual's choice whether or not they run away from being responsible or not. And what's so shameful about singing out loud and jumping that I need a crowd to feel ok with it? Of course I would kick and scream and laugh or whatever else I would feel like doing, if I feel like doing it. ![]() Quote: You would certainly smash up stuff (with the adjacent crowd or not) if you are unable to see that there are other more efficient and less stupid solutions to your problem. ![]() Quote: On and on. ![]() The reason why your christian friend (or any other member of organised religion or not so organised religion ... but still religion) tells you all that is because they already created a personal view on how their lives will follow. I've already been through that and I really hate to repeat myself.It is still his personal choice... personal choice to let himself frightened by god's punishment as well as inflate himself at the thought of receiving a reward from god. There is something wrong (from your perspective) with the second picture as well as there's something wrong with you and the choices you make from your christian friend's point of view. What makes you your right more "right" than his? It's all arbitrary. ![]() Quote: Yeah, what if? ![]() I would comment more upon your statement but I already did earlier on, when it came about imposing one's view on life to others. That's exactly what you try to do, and it's also what you blame religion for. Doesn't it all sound a little weird to you? ![]() Quote: There's nothing "wrong" with the world. What you see as being the word's problems, are in fact your own. I suggest that you look inside and treat yourself instead of treating the world. With other words, the world doesn't need your "help". There. Deal with it! And no, you're NOT trying to make this world a better place. You fantasize about changing the world according to your OWN view of that a better place means. Well accept that: your better does not match thousands and thousands of other "betters".
-------------------- ![]() ![]() ![]() All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
| |||||||
|
explorer ofmetap ![]() Registered: 09/19/07 Posts: 201 Loc: carrollton, tx Last seen: 13 years, 10 months |
| ||||||
Quote: Okay, but a few things: 1) Our differences are more transitory than the underlying psychological principles which govern our being. 2) Those who go to AA generally know they need help (I assume) and aren't told they have a "disease" but simply that when they are at the end of their rope, there's a higher power to latch onto. 3) I'm sure no one's forcing anyone to do anything; rather, it's a means of general guidance. 4) No one's proposing the god of any particular religion or creed, as far as I can tell. -------------------- "I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou ![]() "To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald
| |||||||
|
Registered: 04/15/05 Posts: 11,089 |
| ||||||
Quote: Q: Who is responsible for the flying here, Dumbo or the "magic feather"?
| |||||||
|
explorer ofmetap ![]() Registered: 09/19/07 Posts: 201 Loc: carrollton, tx Last seen: 13 years, 10 months |
| ||||||
|
A: this question is completely irrelevant to the topic at hand.
-------------------- "I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou ![]() "To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald
| |||||||
|
Registered: 04/15/05 Posts: 11,089 |
| ||||||
|
Not really. Religion offers us a "magic feather" in the form of an imaginary higher power. We do not believe in our own abilities, so we invest this deity with all the power to overcome the obstacles in our lives. When we manage to "fly," we decide that it is because "God" or "Allah" or "____________" made it possible.
In the movie, Dumbo was finally exposed to the truth: that the feather was powerless, and the abilities were all his own. Organized religion never wants followers to be exposed to this truth, thus MIND CONTROL. ![]() When you're at the end of your rope, the power you latch onto (or not) is YOUR OWN.
| |||||||
|
The Minstrel in the Gallery Registered: 03/15/05 Posts: 95,368 Loc: underbelly |
| ||||||
|
Erm... you mean to say that no one can concieve of God themselves? Where on earth did we come up with the concept, then?
We can conceive of anything including the Easter Bunny. We came up with the concept IMO from the idea of the father figure. The protective and stern daddy who will tell us what to do and then protect us. But the way that looking to a higher power works for many people is that it releases the stress of being self-conscious about the journey of letting go of their addiction. God-consciousness releases us from self-consciousness. Even the person who simply lets go and moves on with their life is working within this same type of consciousness. It's called by some 'humility' and 'perserverance'. The problem for most is that we're too danged self-conscious about anything and everything. Anyway, even if there are people who are able to be released without the conception of a higher power, it does not negate the helpful experience of concieving of one. We will have to disagree on this. I don't think looking outside oneself for healing is healthy in the long run. Unless of course you just want to fit in. It's the same with most psychotherapy, the goal is not self actualization but instead to make the best of your miserable existence within your culture/society. Just enough health to make you productive for society. In the end you always lose. -------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
| |||||||
|
The Minstrel in the Gallery Registered: 03/15/05 Posts: 95,368 Loc: underbelly |
| ||||||
|
How do you define "self-conscious"? Icelander, we're waiting for an answer. JKSince as far as I remember I never said this you can just wait fucking forever. -------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
| |||||||
|
Registered: 04/15/05 Posts: 11,089 |
| ||||||
|
"JK" means "just kidding," sweetie.
| |||||||
|
The Minstrel in the Gallery Registered: 03/15/05 Posts: 95,368 Loc: underbelly |
| ||||||
|
Well he can still wait fucking forever. NK.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
| |||||||
|
explorer ofmetap ![]() Registered: 09/19/07 Posts: 201 Loc: carrollton, tx Last seen: 13 years, 10 months |
| ||||||
Quote: I think you may have been brainwashed into only thinking a certain way about the concept of G-d. You accept only the definition of G-d that other people have come up with? Why can't someone come up with their own understanding? In your mind, there seems to be only one scenario. That's entirely too boxed-in for me. ![]() It's not that I try to enforce a concept of God on my environment, it's that my environment demands it. I think of myself as simply a bunch of molecules interacting with all the other molecules, and suddenly I feel an overwhelming presence within and through everything holding it all together. That's not something anyone has taught me. I repugn the ideas of others and have learned to continually break free of the mold to think for myself to find such a dynamic reality. ![]() God is not outside of us, but is inside of us as the essence of existence. That is why it is both herself and us working together. God is like the Logos of Greek philosophy, the principle holding everything together. Surely you believe there's coherence in the universe; so do I, and believe that it is the same power by which we live and move. ![]() The Establishment merely tries to suck power from that basic philosophy like a vampire. But there would be no fresh blood if there were nothing living, and likewise there would be no motivation to believe in something greater than us if there were not at least a suspicion of such a thing in each of our individual hearts and minds.
-------------------- "I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou ![]() "To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald
| |||||||
|
The Minstrel in the Gallery Registered: 03/15/05 Posts: 95,368 Loc: underbelly |
| ||||||
|
By your loose definition "God" means whatever you want it to mean. Hitler also believed in a higher power. So what? So now we all paint ourselves this portrait of our mental masturbations and call it God. That is basically true but not conducive to debate.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
| |||||||
|
explorer ofmetap ![]() Registered: 09/19/07 Posts: 201 Loc: carrollton, tx Last seen: 13 years, 10 months |
| ||||||
|
Rheumatism acting up again?
Quote: Or maybe the existence of bunnies and fathers came from a single source holding all of the universe together. I guess I'm too much of a Neo-Platonist to fall for this underdeveloped view of a headless unity. ![]() Quote: But I think you misunderstand. It's not looking outside to look outside, it's looking outside to attain within. Everything we look at outside becomes something inside. To view God outside yourself is to internalize God. This is where I agree and disagree with the philosophy of a made-up God. Of course there's an inward conception of God just as we have for everything else; but that does not mean that of necessity it is not also an outward reality. Nor, when it is seen as an outward reality, does it cease to be an inward one. The outside is inside, and the inside is outside. ![]() To internalize something greater than yourself is to give yourself power to live even greater. To continually turn inward and look only to yourself is to feed your own weak impulses and degenerate into a self-defeating cycle. We step outward from ourselves to find our true selves, but lock ourselves inward only to starve ourselves of meaning and its necessary development.
-------------------- "I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou ![]() "To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald
| |||||||
|
The Minstrel in the Gallery Registered: 03/15/05 Posts: 95,368 Loc: underbelly |
| ||||||
|
To view God outside yourself is to internalize God. This is where I agree and disagree with the philosophy of a made-up God. Of course there's an inward conception of God just as we have for everything else; but that does not mean that of necessity it is not also an outward reality.
That first sentence is a doozy and seems like a common form of mental abberation. but that does not mean that of necessity it is not also an outward reality. I'll always give you the possibility that it's an outward reality if you will admit to the possibility of that being delusion? Bet ya can't do it.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
| |||||||
|
explorer ofmetap ![]() Registered: 09/19/07 Posts: 201 Loc: carrollton, tx Last seen: 13 years, 10 months |
| ||||||
Quote: Partly what makes the concept of God so vague is that if God is over all the universe, then everything must be a part of its existence. That means that there can be no specific parameters given. However, on the other hand there can be specific descriptions given, as each individual thing expresses a different quality of the whole. A man like Hitler who commits crimes against the universe cannot be said to express God through his ideology and actions when they are not conducive, but in fact harmful, to the life and productivity of the whole. He has made a virus out of a potentially life-giving mechanism and calls it his "God". But the original thing was not corrupted to begin with - corruption must find something which exists, and is pleasant, to corrupt. -------------------- "I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou ![]() "To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald
| |||||||
|
The Minstrel in the Gallery Registered: 03/15/05 Posts: 95,368 Loc: underbelly |
| ||||||
|
A man like Hitler who commits crimes against the universe cannot be said to express God through his ideology and actions when they are not conducive, but in fact harmful, to the life and productivity of the whole. He has made a virus out of a potentially life-giving mechanism and calls it his "God".
Oh Boy is this non-sense! Something you don't like isn't God but what you agree with is. And I thought you were doing well in this debate.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC Edited by Icelander (10/02/07 10:59 AM)
| |||||||
|
explorer ofmetap ![]() Registered: 09/19/07 Posts: 201 Loc: carrollton, tx Last seen: 13 years, 10 months |
| ||||||
Quote: You don't believe we internalize everything we come into contact with? That seems to be a troublesome theory at best. Quote: Of course, I'm a typical theist who can't imagine anything but what he's been taught by the 'establishment'. Gimme a break. Just because you have a hard time concieving of anything beyond what you've been taught about the concept of G-d doesn't mean that everyone else does.I'll admit to the possibility of someone thinking that it's a delusion, but to be intellectually honest I cannot think of another scenario wherein there would be no G-d. Existence not only requires it but in another sense enunciates it. We're dealing with the same reality but perhaps the concept of God that you're thinking of is not the same one that I am. And this is just where the problem occurs. One sees an aspect of things that another does not, and so the latter comes up with an ad hoc explanation for the other's "ramblings" and denounces it. This is not a discussion I care to extend for a great amount of time. People see different things in reality, and it's useless to try to force one's viewpoint on another. All I would ask of any conversation is a discussion, not a critique. I do not need your expounditure on the finer points of my central beliefs as you do not see what I see and therefore cannot understand the dynamic I'm working from. The same with myself as regards you or as regards any two people at all. -------------------- "I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou ![]() "To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald
| |||||||
|
The Minstrel in the Gallery Registered: 03/15/05 Posts: 95,368 Loc: underbelly |
| ||||||
|
but to be intellectually honest I cannot think of another scenario wherein there would be no G-d.
The difference here is that I am open to any possibility and you can't manage it. Feel free to bow out of any debate at any time. You're probably all worn out. ![]() Oh and yes we internalize an image like perception of what we come in contact with but it could be a completely incorrect internalization. -------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
| |||||||
|
Blue Fish Group Registered: 04/01/07 Posts: 45,414 Loc: Under the C |
| ||||||
|
Stellar vs. Old Fellar
| |||||||
|
explorer ofmetap ![]() Registered: 09/19/07 Posts: 201 Loc: carrollton, tx Last seen: 13 years, 10 months |
| ||||||
Quote: All descriptions of God must be said to be God? This goes back to using the term "God". Perhaps it was foolish to allow myself to continue the usage of the term as it does appear to be troublesome for you. With any concept, the parameters must be established - not by outward perceptions, but through inward perception. Why must Hitler's God be my God, or let us even say, why must Hitler's God be the God? The Supreme Being of Love could not possibly endorse senseless acts of violence. To say that I renounce Hitler's God but hold to my own is not essential nonsense, it's a matter of internal reasoning. We cannot fool ourselves by accepting all things which go by the same name in the marketplace. We must analyze the nature of a thing and thereby come to its true form. Why don't I like Hitler? For the same reason that no one else does. For the same reason that I believe that God doesn't (as regards Hitler's nature, of course). But both the Supreme Being of Love and the dark god of selfishness are being called by the same name. Why? Because our foolishness and senselessness abound and we care not to annihilate them from within. Instead we build ramparts and shoot cannons over the top hoping not to miss our target. The word 'God' has been abused but so will any new word which comes along to try to capture the essence of the original concept. I guess all of our explanations and meanderings in this life are in flux at best. But recognizing this we must also see that a person may not always mean what we think they mean. -------------------- "I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou ![]() "To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald
| |||||||
|
The Minstrel in the Gallery Registered: 03/15/05 Posts: 95,368 Loc: underbelly |
| ||||||
|
The Supreme Being of Love could not possibly endorse senseless acts of violence.
This shows how little you know. Nature/God is built on violence as any teenager could tell you. You are completely making up God in your own image and based on your fears and anxieties and that is becoming ever more clear as the debate continues. If there is a conscious creator then it creates all things that are manifest, nothing else makes sense and are IMO the ramblings of a new age fluffy with a bad case of undiagnosed death anxiety. Oh, and some people do like Hitler.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC Edited by Icelander (10/02/07 11:16 AM)
| |||||||
|
Atheistic Mystic Registered: 04/08/07 Posts: 606 Loc: Here and there Last seen: 10 years, 11 months |
| ||||||
|
They create their gods and set limits on what he can do or not do.
What if Vatican comes to know jesus had enjoyed masturbation. The present Pope would have a bad case of hiccups. -------------------- Pray, v.: To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy - Ambrose Bierce Medical science has confirmed what the male world has known intuitively for millenia: that scratching your ass is a great aid to complex thinking. Its God's responsibility to forgive the terrorist organizations such as Jaish, Lashkar etc. Its our responsibility to arrange the meeting between them and god." - Indian Armed Forces "Hey Monkey!! Get Funky" - Tarzan and Jane
| |||||||
|
explorer ofmetap ![]() Registered: 09/19/07 Posts: 201 Loc: carrollton, tx Last seen: 13 years, 10 months |
| ||||||
Quote: I'm not tired in the least. The question is whether it is of any fruitful consequence to continue. I do feel that there's an aspect to this that I hadn't seen before, so I'll keep going. As far the other two statements, I feel that they approach the same issue... if once you have ever known something for what it is, you could not possibly concieve of a different reality. An apple may not be the apple that you think it is, but once you've bitten into it and cut it up and made applesauce, you know that it exists beyond just your explanations of it. Somehow you know that, even if your experience has merely been a dream you have been in, you have somehow come into contact with a real apple. Why? You have captured its essence; you have internalized it. If you've ever loved anyone, you will feel the same as regards them. You could not possibly bring yourself to say, 'This person may not exist'. It would feel as if you were wronging their existence by saying so. The same way as it applies to God. It could be said that you could never fully come into contact with an infinite being, but by cutting up apples and making applesauce and having friends and marrying I may feel that I have been coming into contact with God all along. And if I have felt that I captured the essence of God beyond all my explanations, that even if this life is a dream or if this Essential Being seems to be an illusion, that it is somehow still true and I have come to know him with an internal knowledge. Now, when it comes to this internalization, something kind of funny happens. We can never take away from it, but we can always add to it and make it more complete. I can never feel as if that apple or that friend never existed, at least to the degree that I have come to really know them. And what if you have never felt you have come to know God? You would say it is easy to forget him; all you have ever had were explanations. But to come into direct contact with the essence of all existence, like coming into direct contact with your friend, and knowing them, it is something entirely different to say that they never existed and you have forgotten all about even the possibility of their existence. A real friend you can never forget. The existence of that which you have come to love is unforgettable. And this is why I say I cannot imagine the possibility of a universe without God; call it an individual matter, but it's still there. -------------------- "I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou ![]() "To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald
| |||||||
|
The Minstrel in the Gallery Registered: 03/15/05 Posts: 95,368 Loc: underbelly |
| ||||||
|
If you've ever loved anyone, you will feel the same as regards them. You could not possibly bring yourself to say, 'This person may not exist'. It would feel as if you were wronging their existence by saying so.
I have loved many and can entertain the possibility that they never existed. There are so many unknowns to the finite mind. I could have dreamt the whole thing and when I awaken all this life could have been the illusion of reality (dream). I just don't really know what reality is. I can only guess. What I object to in fluffernauts is there inability to realize that they are not knowing reality but just a best guess from a finite mind that is full of programs implanted when they were children and without their permission and now believe that is who they are. Any honest person IMO will admit that their whole belief system is just a best guess. The others are in the grip of their fears and anxieties and need assurance that there is something real and solid and looking out for them. This is nothing but self indulgent self importance and insecurity. -------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
| |||||||
|
The Minstrel in the Gallery Registered: 03/15/05 Posts: 95,368 Loc: underbelly |
| ||||||
Quote: Zactly! -------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
| |||||||
|
explorer ofmetap ![]() Registered: 09/19/07 Posts: 201 Loc: carrollton, tx Last seen: 13 years, 10 months |
| ||||||
Quote: Nature is built on violence? This is something I have certainly never learned. Do we exist through violence? If the origin of our life has never come about through violence, then why would more life come about through it? Violence doesn't propagate life, though it may sometimes be a natural result of it or make room for more of it. But violence is not contained within the essence of life, it is found outwardly. And even if violence were conducive towards life, it would not then be said to be senseless. There is a sense in which a higher power may allow an act of senseless violence to occur if only by means of attaining a higher end - that of causing good men to rise up and do something about it. Teach a man to fish, and you feed him for a lifetime. Teach wise men to fight for the integrity of being and you will promote goodness throughout the world. It's the same wisdom as leaving the child to clean their own room or allowing the chick to hatch out of its own egg. It requires a light touch. So, in the scheme of things, in a world of disorder and chaos imposed on a world of life and beauty, we are led to momentarily believe that this is all there is, when we are to fault ourselves for the reality we have created. It's not the death anxiety of the believer but of those within the seed who are yet waiting to die and afterwards spring to new life. But the believer knows what's yet beyond the shell. -------------------- "I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou ![]() "To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald
| |||||||
|
explorer ofmetap ![]() Registered: 09/19/07 Posts: 201 Loc: carrollton, tx Last seen: 13 years, 10 months |
| ||||||
Quote: But what if those others do not exist? What if it is only you imagining people who are too self-important to admit that their theories of reality are at best just a guess? This would mean that you are merely projecting outward in order to comfort yourself about your own internal world. This mental projection cannot ultimately be avoided, but can be used as a means of processing rather than mental masturbation and self-stimulation.What power does a program have over an individual and over internalization? If it is all a dream, then you might as well accept the dream, as nothing else truly exists. If you yourself are the only reality then at least accept the part of yourself that could create such wonderful dreams as the people you have interacted with and the nature you have meditated upon. In any case, those things will be more real to you simply by means of being more powerful. If you have not focused on them well enough, however, and have simply floundered about in the muddy puddle of your own closed off self, then of course they will be less real to you. But by stepping outward and taking the chance that there is something more than just your own miserable self-existence (as we all must do), you might find something both more wondrous and more real than you have yet experienced at the same exact time. -------------------- "I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou ![]() "To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald
| |||||||
|
The Minstrel in the Gallery Registered: 03/15/05 Posts: 95,368 Loc: underbelly |
| ||||||
|
Yes death and decay and suffering is just as important to the continuation of life on this planet as love and nurturing. To put God outside of this is just pure nonsense as there is not support for this in the definition of a "supernatural all powerful and inclusive" creator.
You are just making this up as you go along. Attributing things to a God that you could not ever really know unless he was made in your image. Ever consider all the contradictory views on God out there? There is a good reason for this. Not a lot of contradiction on the chemical make up of water though. Good reason for that too. Really when I read your posts it sounds like you are directly speaking for God and know his mind and intentions. And this my fluffy friend is how I have come to throughly believe that your ideas are full of ![]()
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC Edited by Icelander (10/02/07 11:55 AM)
| |||||||
|
Blue Fish Group Registered: 04/01/07 Posts: 45,414 Loc: Under the C |
| ||||||
Quote: Icey thinks, "Now, I am walking in the sun along a pristine river in search of rainbow trout..."
| |||||||
|
The Minstrel in the Gallery Registered: 03/15/05 Posts: 95,368 Loc: underbelly |
| ||||||
|
With a naked blond holding my rod.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
| |||||||
|
Blue Fish Group Registered: 04/01/07 Posts: 45,414 Loc: Under the C |
| ||||||
|
Watch out for treble hooks!
| |||||||
|
Registered: 04/15/05 Posts: 11,089 |
| ||||||
|
I'm sure she will let him use her "bobbers."
| |||||||
|
The Minstrel in the Gallery Registered: 03/15/05 Posts: 95,368 Loc: underbelly |
| ||||||
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
| |||||||
|
Beyond Registered: 05/07/04 Posts: 6,697 Loc: Between Last seen: 3 years, 16 days |
| ||||||
|
"Not a lot of contradiction on the chemical make up of water "
Uh, bad example ![]() At least water has some extra-natural attribute, which doesn't fit into the snugness of physical laws exactly. Its density anomaly from 0 to 4 degree celsius. Uh, MYSTERY G*D Just a remark ![]() Nice thread, btw. edit: And yes, stellar lost his credibility here as he stated everyone dislikes Hitler. What a nonsense of poor wishful thinking. -------------------- Edited by BlueCoyote (10/02/07 12:51 PM)
| |||||||
|
The Minstrel in the Gallery Registered: 03/15/05 Posts: 95,368 Loc: underbelly |
| ||||||
Quote: Nice bunch of fluffernaut gobbledegook. I didn't say life was a dream and I dreamed up you and your funny posts. I said it could be just as much as a million other things. The fact is that I cannot, with my finite mind, understand the workings or motivations of anything that is infinite. And anyone who can stand to be uncertain will readily admit to this. I don't have to know what God is or thinks or if it exists at all. I can still be happy and enjoy what seems to be happening to what I call me and still look out in wonder on all of it. And I don't need to be sure about any of it or that I am (my personality structure) meaningful or purposeful in any particular way. This at one time was much more anxiety provoking than it is now. Actually taking large doses of psychedelics helped a lot. Knowingly or unknowingly I was working through my own personal Bar do ala The Psychedelic Experience; not to mention my daily life, relationships and posting and debating here. (Actually debating here has really opened my eyes to how we are all just guessing about just about everything) -------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC Edited by Icelander (10/02/07 02:13 PM)
| |||||||
|
Drug Geek Registered: 04/16/07 Posts: 18 Loc: Kalamazoo Last seen: 16 years, 1 month |
| ||||||
Quote: I don't think that this is what everyone on this forum thinks, and, if they do believe these statements, many believe them because they have come to the conclusion themselves, not because they're dogmatic. The very fact that you are telling him what he believes is kind of rediculous. The type of person likely to be posting on a philosophy and spirituality forum is most likely the kind of person who has formed beliefs through careful thought, not dogmatism. In response to "why are you trying to convert others to your way", I think that he is expressing his feelings toward the church. Are you shaming him for expressing his views? I think that if he has a good argument, people will believe him, and probably not otherwise. But it's their prerogative to do that- to hell with intentions. -------------------- Above the Propaganda
| |||||||
|
Teh Cat.... Registered: 09/07/04 Posts: 5,908 Loc: My Youniverse... Last seen: 14 years, 11 months |
| ||||||
|
What do you define "mind control" to be.....?
From Wikipedia: Mind control is a general term for a number of controversial theories and/or techniques designed to subvert an individual's control of their own thinking, behavior, emotions, or decisions. However, rather than mere psychological conditioning, many mind control 'experiments', like the CIA MK-Ultra projects[1], have focused primarily on physical violence or torture as the principal methods to force victims to do what they do not want to do. Physical torture, nevertheless, affects the functioning of the victims' nervous systems including the brain. Forms of torture that may affect the nervous system include beatings, gunshot wounds, stab wounds, asphyxiation, prolonged suspension and electrocution. [2] The feasibility of such control and the methods by which it might be attained (either direct or more subtle) are subject to debate among psychologists, neuroscientists, and sociologists. Also, the exact definition of mind control and the extent to which it might have any kind of influence over individuals are debated. The different views on the subject do have legal implications. For example, mind control was an issue in the court case of Patty Hearst, and in several court cases involving New Religious Movements. Also, questions of mind control are regarding ethical questions linked to the subject of free will. The question of mind control has been discussed in conjunction with religion, politics, prisoners of war, totalitarianism, neural cell manipulation, cults, terrorism, torture, parental alienation, and even battered person syndrome. >^;;^< -------------------- "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
| |||||||
|
explorer ofmetap ![]() Registered: 09/19/07 Posts: 201 Loc: carrollton, tx Last seen: 13 years, 10 months |
| ||||||
Quote: But how does death and decay and suffering make the point for the senseless murder propagated by Hitler? There's a difference, y'know. Hitler intentionally killed people; nature does not intentionally do anything. The original point was that you were trying to tell me that Hitler's view is just as valid as any other, and I was trying to demonstrate how it's not. For someone like Hitler to say that one type of person (and the methodology of defining the 'type' is questionable at best) is less worthy of life is to create an imposed view of things. Death is unbiased. I could go on about how death's 'contribution' merely attests to the strength of life to multiply even in the presence of death, but I digress. Quote: I'm sorry, but no, I'm not. I have given this very thorough thought for years. Your quick synopsis over a message board does not necessarily do give an adequate summation of my thought processes. You are very quick to judge, my friend. I have considered the contradictory views of God. Many of them can be reconciled simply by view of the principle of paradox. Many others cannot and are absurd notions that cannot be held about anything or have no application and are merely words. Quote: Some of those statements I make only to back them up later with my reasoning behind why God could not be any other way. But then you again play fast and loose and claim to have the inside info of what I'm getting at even though it often ends up being a strawman or an underdeveloped response which does not really address the issue. If you're not willing to give this serious contemplation then tell me now so we don't have to keep going in circles here.
-------------------- "I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou ![]() "To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald
| |||||||
|
explorer ofmetap ![]() Registered: 09/19/07 Posts: 201 Loc: carrollton, tx Last seen: 13 years, 10 months |
| ||||||
Quote: Notice that I never said that you did. But the issue was whether it was possible (or reasonable?) to be so acquainted with the essence of something or someone that you could not possibly hold them to be unreal, even if life were just a dream. You replied that it was possible to love someone yet still believe that they may not be real, then attacked the position of absolutely believing that they are. I attempted to dismantle your attack, and then you made it sound as if I were suggesting that your view is that life is nothing but a dream. No, I was addressing the possibility in your mind of nothing being real. Quote: I don't have to know those things to be happy, either. But that does not negate the possibility of knowing them and of that knowledge increasing happiness even more. As long as we're going by personal testimony, I'll insert my own. I was raised an evangelical much as you were. I had debated with atheists from time to time over the years, but at a certain point I joined a message board where it became a habit to go to, and participated in debates with atheists on a continual basis. After awhile, serious doubts began to arise in my mind about my beliefs. I felt as if I had a choice between remaining temporarily secure in my beliefs (which was growing less satisfying by the moment) and stepping into the deep, dark void. I did not know if I would ever be able to find anything out there, and this made it scary. It seemed as if I would drown in darkness and almost unconsciousness. I struggled with this for a good little bit, but my curiosity won out and because I desired the truth so much I decided that as frightening as it was, I would allow myself to be swallowed up by it rather than remain deluded. Awhile later (possibly even a couple of months, I am not sure) I remember being in the library reading some postmodern poetry and feeling the lostness of it. The library closed and I began walking across the street. I remember the moment distinctly as one moment I was on the sidewalk and the next I was venturing out into the street and suddenly everything was scary. The whole world was filled with vast darkness. I felt as if everything had lost meaning all of a sudden and that nothing was sure. I went home and began writing some poetry of my own, and my parents came in and asked if I wanted to go to church with them. I politely declined as I felt that it was entirely too hokey for me. That night and the night following (or maybe a couple nights afterward) I had some very dark dreams. Those would require several paragraphs each, but needless to say they concerned the same issue that I was dealing with. Perhaps you're right in that my explanations are coming too quick and easy. I've constantly needed to learn to relax and take things slowly and have patience. Even after learning these deep and dark lessons and then coming out the other side (though it took what seemed forever through a constant process of dying inside) the process may not totally be complete within one's mind and one may try too hard to excitedly explain the answers to these heart-wrenching problems. At times I struggle with not being able to develop quick enough, feeling as if I'm inadequate to the task, only to momentarily feel as if perhaps I'm trying to speed up too quickly. Perhaps it's a combination of both. Either way, I appreciate you reminding me of that experience and of this great truth. We all need to recognize the vast void of existence and unknowing; it often comes in walks in nature or simply by being silent in one's room. Oftentimes I'll listen to ambient or background music to meditate on the largeness of everything. It's hard to balance two very different extremes, but I feel that it must be done if one is to remain truly sane at all. -------------------- "I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou ![]() "To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald
| |||||||
|
The Minstrel in the Gallery Registered: 03/15/05 Posts: 95,368 Loc: underbelly |
| ||||||
|
But how does death and decay and suffering make the point for the senseless murder propagated by Hitler? There's a difference, y'know. Hitler intentionally killed people; nature does not intentionally do anything.
Hitler is nature same as you me and a bug or coyote, you're making up meaning here. For nature and all life there is only life and death. If a grizzly bear kills you or if your brother kills you the effect is exactly the same. my reasoning behind why God could not be any other way. Here's my point exactly it's "your reasoning" which is finite and using that finite mind to define the meaning of the infinite. IMO, no can do. I don't feel like we are going around in endless circles. I enjoy debate and learn from all of it. Really all I would ask of those who claim to know the will and intent of God is to give me some proofs or say that it is only there best guess at truth. I never have a problem with that position. -------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
| |||||||
|
explorer ofmetap ![]() Registered: 09/19/07 Posts: 201 Loc: carrollton, tx Last seen: 13 years, 10 months |
| ||||||
Quote: Yes, but you were talking about Hitler's conception of God. I was referring to his acts only as a reflection of what kind of God he believed in. So we're really talking about motives here. And no, I don't believe the effect is the same. If an animal kills someone, who would want to take revenge? They would simply kill it, if that. It's when our brother, a fellow human, acts against us that we get outraged or troubled. Quote: Well yeah, I was trying to get to the point where I could show you proofs. Perhaps it's a matter of slowing down and not stating conclusions before I state the evidence, which I can do. It's just that stating evidence seems almost meaningless at times before stating a conclusion. Perhaps I can do both at once. I have no problem with stating it as a guess either. I like having these discussions, it's just that I don't appreciate when they devolve into implications about the other person. As long as it's kept out of that this is one of the types of things that I like to do the most. -------------------- "I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou ![]() "To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald
| |||||||
|
The Minstrel in the Gallery Registered: 03/15/05 Posts: 95,368 Loc: underbelly |
| ||||||
|
It's when our brother, a fellow human, acts against us that we get outraged or troubled.
This is a choice we make and we do not have to make it. It's our self-importance creating meaning and value. That's fine but it's totally subjective to each person. You have Proofs? Well what are you waiting for? -------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
| |||||||
|
Blue Fish Group Registered: 04/01/07 Posts: 45,414 Loc: Under the C |
| ||||||
|
He was waiting for you to ask politely. Soon we will discover what billions of others have failed to find. I am so excited.
| |||||||
|
explorer ofmetap ![]() Registered: 09/19/07 Posts: 201 Loc: carrollton, tx Last seen: 13 years, 10 months |
| ||||||
|
Wait... you're saying that when somebody runs screaming into your house, yells that he hates your wife's guts and slices her several ways with a knife the only reason you would be moved is because of your self-importance?
Or perhaps you wouldn't be moved at all...? I would think you would feel incredibly different than if a bear stormed in and clawed her to death. Wouldn't you feel that the bear had done so out of no malicious or vengeful motive, but simply out of some natural impulse? Why isn't there a huge emotional difference aside from our self-importance?As for the proofs, which statements do you want me to prove? I don't remember speaking for God except to say that a Supreme Being of Love could not condone acts of senseless killing. That seems to go by the very definition of the thing. How could promoting senseless acts of killing be love? If Love promoted killing at all I would think there would be a purposeful meaning behind it in order to further a greater experience of life and love on further down the road. But such acts would then cease to be senseless. Unless you're going by a different definition of love than I am, this seems to be obvious. You also contended that there is such a thing as senseless killing that goes on, so how could a Supreme Being not support it? But I believe that the existence of such realities, together with all other experiences and in their appropriate context, ultimately provide for greater life and love. This would probably take an enormous amount of time to defend and may require another thread, but I believe I would be able to defend it. -------------------- "I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou ![]() "To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald
| |||||||
|
The Minstrel in the Gallery Registered: 03/15/05 Posts: 95,368 Loc: underbelly |
| ||||||
|
Wait... you're saying that when somebody runs screaming into your house, yells that he hates your wife's guts and slices her several ways with a knife the only reason you would be moved is because of your self-importance? Or perhaps you wouldn't be moved at all...? I would think you would feel incredibly different than if a bear stormed in and clawed her to death.Right for me there is ultimately no difference in how my partner would die unless I took it personally. She would be dead either way and that would be the important thing for me. This would allow me a chance to accept, without attachment to my own emotional states, the fact that my partner had died. This would be much healthier than hating or raging about something I have no control over. Didn't you say you were about to provide some proof. I'll take anything you got. As yes you are speaking for God when you claim to know all his attributes and exclude from his attributes all the other things that go on in his creation. but I believe I would be able to defend it. As far as I can tell you haven't provided a defense (proof) of anything you have claimed since the beginning of this thread. -------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
| |||||||
|
explorer ofmetap ![]() Registered: 09/19/07 Posts: 201 Loc: carrollton, tx Last seen: 13 years, 10 months |
| ||||||
Quote: Well that's a good attitude to have, IMO. Perhaps you're right about it, I don't know. Quote: Again, where did I do this besides the one instance I referenced? About that instance I said that I believe ultimately all of that seemingly senseless death has a purpose and an eventually good outcome. Yes, I do believe it's a part of God's nature, but not the most encompassing part. God suffers, too, I think. What I felt you were saying is that God, by implication of my definition, must have murderous intentions since Hitler did. But reading your reply to my example about someone hypothetically murdering your loved one makes me think that is perhaps not what you intended to get across. Quote: Ok, which things would you like me to give a proof of? If you could be more specific I could begin doing so. If you mean you would want me to go back through the whole thread and make a definitive proof for every point and sub-point, I'm not sure I'm willing to do that. It would seem to be a waste of energy and I'd rather just start over in another discussion being more methodical. -------------------- "I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou ![]() "To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald
| |||||||
|
The Minstrel in the Gallery Registered: 03/15/05 Posts: 95,368 Loc: underbelly |
| ||||||
Quote: Your post about your experiences sounds like your attempts to deal with death (darkness/void) anxiety. This I believe to be universal and the reason for the creation of a concept of an "all loving God" who creates the world. Yet there is countless examples of violence, pain, suffering, and hate in the world that this being supposedly created. If one only looks at the insect world closely you would see (by human emotional standards) horrific survival of the fittest and not much else. So I think that God is a human creation and most likely does not exist. Now Quote: Icelander said: I don't have to know what God is or thinks or if it exists at all. I can still be happy and enjoy what seems to be happening to what I call me and still look out in wonder on all of it. And I don't need to be sure about any of it or that I am (my personality structure) meaningful or purposeful in any particular way. This at one time was much more anxiety provoking than it is now. Actually taking large doses of psychedelics helped a lot. Knowingly or unknowingly I was working through my own personal Bar do ala The Psychedelic Experience; not to mention my daily life, relationships and posting and debating here. (Actually debating here has really opened my eyes to how we are all just guessing about just about everything) You said: I don't have to know those things to be happy, either. But that does not negate the possibility of knowing them and of that knowledge increasing happiness even more. As long as we're going by personal testimony, I'll insert my own. So what do I want proof of from you? Proof that your God exists or an admission from you that God may or may not exist but you believe he does. If you prove God I'll become a believer. If it's uncertain and you can admit to it then I will become a believer in you.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
| |||||||
|
Blue Fish Group Registered: 04/01/07 Posts: 45,414 Loc: Under the C |
| ||||||
|
I will readily admit that you might be wrong.
| |||||||
|
The Minstrel in the Gallery Registered: 03/15/05 Posts: 95,368 Loc: underbelly |
| ||||||
|
Could I expect less from you? I certainly cannot expect more.;)
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
| |||||||
|
explorer ofmetap ![]() Registered: 09/19/07 Posts: 201 Loc: carrollton, tx Last seen: 13 years, 10 months |
| ||||||
Quote: Are you saying it sounds like an attempt to avoid the feeling of death anxiety? I have to ask if you actually read it, and why you think this when it parallels at least in a general sense your own experience. Of course there is death and survival of the fittest. Creation has been thrown into dischord and become a world of darkness. Even philosophy can teach you that this is not all that there could possibly be and that therefore there must be something greater. I guess what it comes down to is that there are people who search for something better and those who are simply content with leaving things in the horrible state that they are. There may be people who have a mix of both emotions, though, which makes the search even harder to bear. It's not a matter of wishing that you yourself could escape it but that this mode of existence would be swallowed up by life entirely. Quote: This is a ridiculous request. You expect for such a transcendent being as God to be proven by a couple of arguments on a message board? It takes a great deal of persuasion and experience for most people to be able to really percieve God. It's like one ant asking another for the necessary information by transmitting through its antennae to make it believe that the huge undulating hunk of land they are on is actually a giant organism. No, it would require an individual search wherein one discovers more and more about their means of existence and the world around them. It could not be done in an hour or even a week. It usually takes a great deal of time to really discover God. Anything less would reveal a cheap god, nothing really worth searching for. Besides, I hear you guys saying all the time, "God doesn't exist," or "There's not really any evidence for God." Where's your proof for that? The truth is that we have different worldviews shaped by our experiences and it's going to take awhile for us to be able to reconcile them. It won't happen overnight. The best we can do is to try to help each other with what we've learned. -------------------- "I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou ![]() "To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald
| |||||||
|
Dr. Teasy Thighs Registered: 12/02/05 Posts: 14,794 Loc: red panda villag Last seen: 2 years, 10 months |
| ||||||
Quote: Philosophy teaches you what? ![]() No no, I think you must be confusing. All philosophy does is admit that we don't know... almost anything. ![]() That's entirely different from suspecting that there's something "grater" in the sense that you imply. Please don't make of philosophy something utopian, because it's not and it would be a shame to persist in this idea. We're talking about philosophy only when it comes to measurable quantities and reliability. Quote: And what is horrible about this reality, about how things are going on right now? I fail to see your point. One can look for better alternatives of being without feeling depressed or frustrated by how things are at the present moment. In fact, being all negative about the current reality obstructs us from finding better and more efficient ways of living, because, instead of making rational choices, we act on impulse. I think that what matters is the motivation. And if the motivation is coming from a lower, much unaware aspect of ourselves, the outcome can never be constructive. When we have a healthy attitude, when our motivation comes from the joy of live and the pleasure on experiencing the quality of life under all it's aspects, then we are able to have a much wider and righteous understanding. Quote: On the contrary. It is ridiculous to believe in something that shows no signs of existence. How does this belief help me, in any practical terms, to enrich the quality of my life? People believe in god because of inertia, because it's one of the longest legend oh mankind. But that's all there is. A legend. You sustain that god exists, this is a debate forum and of course you will have to come up with arguments to prove his existence. Or if you can't, then simply just drop the idea. ![]() Quote: Now you're talking about personal preferences. This is something else than the subject and purpose of this discussion. Each of us is free to believe in anything we wish. This however has nothing to do with a universal truth, therefore it's better to keep it private. -------------------- ![]() ![]() ![]() All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
| |||||||
|
The Minstrel in the Gallery Registered: 03/15/05 Posts: 95,368 Loc: underbelly |
| ||||||
|
Are you saying it sounds like an attempt to avoid the feeling of death anxiety? I have to ask if you actually read it, and why you think this when it parallels at least in a general sense your own experience.
Everyone has death anxiety IMO. I'm not different. The only difference between us is how we deal with it. Creation has been thrown into dischord and become a world of darkness. Even philosophy can teach you that this is not all that there could possibly be and that therefore there must be something greater. First of all it's humanity that's in perceived (by itself) dischord. The rest of nature has always been thus. As to your second sentence here it's nonsense that there must be something greater. This comes from whole cloth out of your head. Life can just be the way it is and has been, nothing else must be or is. More death anxiety IMO. I guess what it comes down to is that there are people who search for something better and those who are simply content with leaving things in the horrible state that they are. Things seem to be in a "horrible state" because that's what you believe. Others like myself do not think this is true. Life and nature just is, and includes light/dark, love/fear, living/dying and this has always been so. Again you are deciding the meanings and purpose of life and beyond based on your fallible, limited, human, emotional needs and perceptions. In this you seem fully programmed. It takes a great deal of persuasion and experience for most people to be able to really percieve God. Which may also mean that God doesn't exist. If God were real like a tree then it would be self evident which it is not because likely it's not there.;) Of course like any true believer you cannot be convinced by logical thinking but rather by magical thinking. Besides, I hear you guys saying all the time, "God doesn't exist," or "There's not really any evidence for God." Where's your proof for that? He's the difference which you continue to ignore. I don't claim to know either way. Because of the lack of evidence for a God I tend to believe that there is none but am not sure. I need offer no proof of this. You on the other hand bear the burden of proof as you claim to know what truth is. So lets see it or back off. Of course you can't because it creates anxiety in you to not know this. I think this has been established in this debate in the way you doggedly hang on to your beliefs without being able to provide proof in any way to those of us who ask you to back your claims and refuse to acknowledge that you might just possibly be wrong.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
| |||||||
|
explorer ofmetap ![]() Registered: 09/19/07 Posts: 201 Loc: carrollton, tx Last seen: 13 years, 10 months |
| ||||||
Quote: Educate yourself: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phi Anyway, the line of thought I understand to justify what I was saying goes something like this: if something causes you discomfort, it must come from some kind of knowledge of something better than it. How could you be uncomfortable with what you've known nothing better than or have no potential capacity to know anything better than? Also, I like the Freudian slip (I guess that's what it is) with the statement you made, "You must be confusing." lol. ![]() Quote: Please tell me you know how to read in context. Icelander said, "horrific survival of the fittest". I was responding to this. Let's put it this way. If life is good, then that which is opposed to life is opposed to good. I've already stated that ultimately, it's all for the good, so I'm not getting "all negative" about it. Where you get that, I do not know. Quote: The natural world is one sign of its existence, according to my viewpoint of it. Quote: Enrichment of the quality of your life is rooted in a certain state of mind, correct? And if you believe that the whole world is energized by a single source of love and life and peace that unites everything, wouldn't that practically uplift your soul to the point of enrichment? Quote: You have yet to prove that that's all there is to belief in God. You've made a supposition and now I'm asking you to prove it. The only arguments which can be made for a person's existence are philosophical ones. If you observed my friend's body and said that you didn't think they existed, then the problem would seem to be that you didn't believe in their identity as a person. The problem would then be philosophical. If you look at the natural world and say that God doesn't exist, then the problem would seem to be that you don't believe in God's identity as a person. The natural world is the embodiment of the Supreme Being I'm speaking of. So, the problem is philosophical in nature. Quote: What. on. earth. are. you. talking. about? ![]() How can a belief be a personal preference? Shouldn't all beliefs concern themselves with the truth of things? And how did I come even close to speaking about this kind of "personal preference" for belief? Unless I misunderstand you, you seem to be mixing postmodernism with empirical atheism. Do you halfway believe in relativism or something? Or maybe you misunderstood my comment, and I don't understand how you misunderstood it, therefore I don't understand the response you gave. But that's whacked out. Let me explain. Even science is based on an empirical methodology. We are subject to our experiences to help us examine universal truth. We have no other input data to use but experiences by which to interpret the world around us. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not speaking of 'experiences' in the sense that they include the personal interpretation of that experience, but just the plain experience itself. All the data which comes through our senses. So if we can't know anything except that which we experience, then why are you talking about personal preferences with me? All I'm saying is that this same type of examination should be used for God as anything else. We must examine and interpret our experiences in order to give the best explanation for them. The problem comes when people have different experiences, different data to analyze and come to different conclusions about things. This whole conversation is really giving me a headache... -------------------- "I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou ![]() "To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald
| |||||||
|
explorer ofmetap ![]() Registered: 09/19/07 Posts: 201 Loc: carrollton, tx Last seen: 13 years, 10 months |
| ||||||
Quote: I kept the bolded quote of my statement inside my quote of your statement so that you could easily read what I said again. I didn't ask you if you thought I had death anxiety. I asked you if you thought I was trying to avoid it. Earlier you said that it sounded like I was trying to deal with death anxiety, and now you're saying there are different ways to deal with it. Very well, what is the difference? Quote: Prove it! Quote: If there is the capacity for something greater, then that greater must (at least possibly) exist. It's simple philosophy. Quote: Fully programmed by what, pray tell? Is there nothing that is horrible? Where does the word come from, then? Where does the thought and feeling come from? And where are we to place the emotion if there is nothing to apply it to? Can you regard both love and equality for those of the Jewish race and their senseless extermination and herding into concentration camps in the same light? Wouldn't one seem to be horrible and the other not? To see them both the same way would seem to be more or less total disconnectedness. Light and dark are not equal. The one is greater than the other. Light invades darkness and makes a mockery of it. One day it could invade all of the darkness. There is both substance and emptiness. The one is an aspect of energy and matter, and the other does not truly exist. Darkness is not a part of nature. The word darkness is a placeholder like the number zero is. It represents a state of being which has the potential for completion but is not yet what it could be. To say that light and darkness are equally balanced is foolish nonsense. Even science should have taught you better. Quote: Of course like any non-believer you see a living body and think it to be inanimate. Quote: 'Back off'? Do you feel intimidated or something? I'm not pushing you into a corner, we're just having a discussion. I was simply referring to comments you've made elsewhere which amount to, from my memory, an absolute negative statement against God's existence. It may have been an emotional statement or exaggeration of the way you feel on the subject, but my point simply was that one does not necessarily have to provide proofs for one's statements in order to make them. Plenty of people make all kinds of statements as fact without explaining them. If you would like for me not to, then I'll discontinue, my friend. I don't mind. The sooner to end this meta-discussion! ![]() Quote: 1) How could I prove something to you which has so many aspects to it that they could not all be contained in one conversation or even (possibly) one lifetime? Secondly, what kind of proofs are you looking for? The difference between believing in the existence of a tree and believing in the existence of an all-encompassing, transcendental, metaphysical being is that one only requires casual observance and the other requires rigorous mental and emotional exercise to percieve every aspect of. The kind of god you could believe in otherwise, I'm not even interested in. 2) Why would someone state the possibility of being wrong about what they are certain of? If we're sitting on either side of a table with an apple between us, and I ask you to please admit the possibility that this apple does not exist, why would you feel the need to do so? -------------------- "I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou ![]() "To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald
| |||||||
|
Dr. Teasy Thighs Registered: 12/02/05 Posts: 14,794 Loc: red panda villag Last seen: 2 years, 10 months |
| ||||||
Quote: Thank you for offering to educate myself, but I think I had much better sources when I made that statement. So it still stands. Just so you know, reading some info from wikipedia is not called "making research" or instructing oneself, since it only contains surface data. I am well aware of the many meanings of the word philosophy and also which one has proved to be more efficient and righteous. I am gonna give you a little quote (from your own link) that could maybe shed some light in your mind regarding our conversation: Quote: Now, we're not talking about what having a "philosophy of mind" means (which is just a parable that is not to be taken ad literam), and if you payed enough attention to the info you yourself gave me you would have realized that we're referring to the mainstream of philosophy, which is western: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phi I think that a better and more accurate idea about what philosophy is about was conducted by Parmenides. I'll take the liberty of suggesting you a reading, which in my opinion is brilliant, and worth payed attention to. It's a book called "To think like god" - Arnold Hermann, and which, contrary to the title, logically and eloquently disproves the existence of god (amongst other things). ![]() Quote: I know what you were replying to, and also I was able to detect the sense in which his statement was made. Quote: And like I said earlier, your view point is one thing and proving it is another. Until now you failed at the latter. Quote: Thank you, but I very much prefer enrichment through reality, not through delusion. We must look for real ways to sustain and lift our way being, and god, santa and the easter bunny don't fall under that category. Quote: It is observable with the naked eye. ![]() Besides, you started discussing about god's existence, so you're the one who have to prove your point. But for your own clarification, I'll suggest you another book called "the god delusion" - Richard Dawkins. Quote: If I looked at your friend and said he didn't exist I would probably be deluded since my eyes would be seeing the obvious. As for the natural world, it already exists by itself, why call it god? I see no reason in doing so, and it only confuses people. I hope that you have enough reason and maturity to note the difference. Quote: Read all the above. And yes, I understood very well what you said, only that, since there is nothing to prove the existence of god, I call believing in it a personal preference. -------------------- ![]() ![]() ![]() All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
| |||||||
|
Visual Alchemist Registered: 04/27/06 Posts: 11,181 Loc: Solar Circuit |
| ||||||
|
IMO,
organized religion and mind control go hand in hand, and the same can go for any personal religion. my beliefs can be influenced from without, by the group, by society, but they can just as easily be controlled by the habits and mechanics of my own mind, from within. it's a two way street. both don't permit to redefine one's simulation of god. to anybody seeking to liberate themselves from certain systems of belief, i suggest to do the extraordinary. create a situation outside of your familiar programming, and swim in the joy of experiencing yourself in a new way. --------------------
| |||||||
|
Dr. Teasy Thighs Registered: 12/02/05 Posts: 14,794 Loc: red panda villag Last seen: 2 years, 10 months |
| ||||||
-------------------- ![]() ![]() ![]() All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
| |||||||
|
explorer ofmetap ![]() Registered: 09/19/07 Posts: 201 Loc: carrollton, tx Last seen: 13 years, 10 months |
| ||||||
|
You're making so many assumptions (like that belief in God takes an irrational leap of faith) or that my philosophy has no logical basis, that it's not worth discussing this further with you.
![]() Also, you read Dawkins? puhhh-leeeease, girl! That sure explains a lot.
-------------------- "I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou ![]() "To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald
| |||||||
|
Dr. Teasy Thighs Registered: 12/02/05 Posts: 14,794 Loc: red panda villag Last seen: 2 years, 10 months |
| ||||||
Quote: Where am I making assumptions? Please show me exactly where and refute them. Otherwise I'll think that you just don't know what to answer so you're playing a cheap game. Sell your drama somewhere else. ![]() Quote: This is a lame form of excusing your own inability to have a debate or to reason. Please save your personal remarks for yourself. -------------------- ![]() ![]() ![]() All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
| |||||||
|
The Minstrel in the Gallery Registered: 03/15/05 Posts: 95,368 Loc: underbelly |
| ||||||
|
I asked you if you thought I was trying to avoid it.
Yes. Prove it! I cannot prove it but there is strong evidence for it from all of human history and a pre historic fossil record etc. There is no evidence that life was never the way it is. Life is a struggle for survival, first and foremost. If there is the capacity for something greater, then that greater must (at least possibly) exist. It's simple philosophy. We sure do go over this again and again. It's the (at least possibly) part that I have always referred to. If it could possibly be true then it could also be possibly be false. When one claims to know ultimate truth about a Creator and it's motives then one ignores the fact that they don't really know for sure. Fully programmed by what, pray tell? Is there nothing that is horrible? Where does the word come from, then? Where does the thought and feeling come from? And where are we to place the emotion if there is nothing to apply it to? Can you regard both love and equality for those of the Jewish race and their senseless extermination and herding into concentration camps in the same light? Wouldn't one seem to be horrible and the other not? To see them both the same way would seem to be more or less total disconnectedness. Light and dark are not equal. The one is greater than the other. Light invades darkness and makes a mockery of it. One day it could invade all of the darkness. There is both substance and emptiness. The one is an aspect of energy and matter, and the other does not truly exist. Darkness is not a part of nature. The word darkness is a placeholder like the number zero is. It represents a state of being which has the potential for completion but is not yet what it could be. To say that light and darkness are equally balanced is foolish nonsense. Even science should have taught you better. We are all programmed by our life experiences. I never said there is nothing horrible. I just don't go along with your statement that life is horrible. I see both love and hate. The rest of this I just don't know how to respond to as it doesn't make much sense to me. I can only get the feeling that you misunderstand much of my posts. I never said light and dark were balanced. I will say that light and dark as metaphors do create a balance IMO. If your looking for perfect balance you can't find it in nature. It's constant motion but I could make a non-sensible statement also about how much actual darkness I perceive and then go on to build my belief system around it. ("what the thinker thinks, the prover proves) But that's all it would be, my beliefs. 'Back off'? Do you feel intimidated or something? No, I didn't mean back off from me. I meant that if you cannot provide proofs for your claim of direct knowledge that God exists then back off of that claim and instead state correctly that you believe that God exists but do not have shareable evidence of that existence. The difference between believing in the existence of a tree and believing in the existence of an all-encompassing, transcendental, metaphysical being is that one only requires casual observance and the other requires rigorous mental and emotional exercise to perceive every aspect of. The kind of god you could believe in otherwise, I'm not even interested in. I have taken years of searching in the ways you mention. Most likely many more years of it than you and very rigorous at times in my life. My discoveries from this rigorous mental and emotional exercise is to conclude the absence of a God possessing human emotional attributes. I have come to be more Taoist in my thinking. I remain open to any possibility but make my best guess as to truth like everyone else whether they admit that or not. Why would someone state the possibility of being wrong about what they are certain of? If we're sitting on either side of a table with an apple between us, and I ask you to please admit the possibility that this apple does not exist, why would you feel the need to do so? We need to be open minded for real debate to take place as is intended in this forum. True believers only preach and that does not belong here is S&P. Mysticism forum would be the place. IMO anyone who cannot admit that they might be wrong are just acting self-important and ignorant. Of course anyone could be wrong about anything. Finite minds remember? We can't get all the info unless of course God is really made in our image. If we're sitting on either side of a table with an apple between us, and I ask you to please admit the possibility that this apple does not exist, why would you feel the need to do so? For the simple and honest reason that there is a slight chance that there really isn't an apple there. In my dreams I see apples and believe in them and even eat them. Yet I awaken hungry. -------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
| |||||||
|
explorer ofmetap ![]() Registered: 09/19/07 Posts: 201 Loc: carrollton, tx Last seen: 13 years, 10 months |
| ||||||
|
How am I supposed to refute statements that have no given rationale for them? I say something about God and you say something about the Easter bunny, as if there's a correlation somehow. You say that my philosophy is a leap of faith, that believing in God is immature and a personal preference. These are blanket statements without any kind of backing to them, which are exactly the kind of statements that Richard Dawkins makes.
What motivation do I have for talking with you if all you do is make statements without explaining them? I've made arguments for my own case, and I'm not going to keep debating with people who continue to disregard them. It's just a pointless waste of time. I actually thought these boards might prove interesting. I guess not. -------------------- "I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou ![]() "To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald
| |||||||
|
Registered: 04/15/05 Posts: 11,089 |
| ||||||
Quote: This analogy doesn't work. The equivalent of what you are saying would be if I looked at your friend, touched your friend, smelled your friend, tasted your friend ( ) and heard your friend, acknowledged his existence, and THEN you claimed that his existence was proof that the Easter Bunny exists. This IS a leap of faith, it IS illogical, and it does not constitute proof. ![]() The natural world provides evidence of its' own existence, and claiming that it is evidence of a higher power is an expression of your opinion, not of fact.
| |||||||
|
explorer ofmetap ![]() Registered: 09/19/07 Posts: 201 Loc: carrollton, tx Last seen: 13 years, 10 months |
| ||||||
Quote: Okay, now you can tell me why. Quote: The possibility of something greater is what I was referring to all along. If there's room for it then it could someday be. Are you so sure we can't be sure? How do you know for sure? Quote: Where, pray tell, did I imply that life is horrible? Why would the concepts of light and dark make good metaphors if the physical phenomena they are based on does not make a good analogy? Quote: This is the first statement I made about God here: "God is not outside of us, but is inside of us as the essence of existence." If you're looking for proof of the God I'm speaking of like you'd look for proof of a tree, then you're not going to get it, by very definition. I didn't know you couldn't make statements about your beliefs that you could then discuss the rationale for. Quote: Since you mentioned this, there are only a couple problems I see: assuming that all anyone has about the truth of things is a guess, and that the guess is sufficient. Quote: Finite minds that can yet examine the truth of things. You don't need to know about everything to understand the essence of the things that you do know. Quote: Then the question would go on to analyze, what makes a thing an apple? The thought process would then be categorical, philosophical and linguistic in nature. This is probably the part of the process you are forgetting. You have stated before that you are only able to guess at the truth, but what is the truth? The nature of the truth is probably the next step in the process. In the other thread you implied that you didn't know how to define what makes up the truth. That's fine, but it makes further discussion impossible when you are unwilling to navigate down that path. I've felt like discussion with you has been more fruitful, but it still is not fruitful enough. I came here looking for philosophical discussions, and I will likely find better ones elsewhere. Good luck on the path of life. I hope you find what you are looking for. -------------------- "I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou ![]() "To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald
| |||||||
|
Dr. Teasy Thighs Registered: 12/02/05 Posts: 14,794 Loc: red panda villag Last seen: 2 years, 10 months |
| ||||||
|
Then you should pay more attention to what I said.
I never stated that there aren't some much more aspects of this reality or this Universe and that maybe our mind will never be able to apprehend. Life itself is a mystery. It is because we know so little. This doesn't mean that what we don't know is god. The tendency I observed in most religious people is that they label the great mystery, the great Unknown, by splitting it in two: God and Evil. God is the mystery that happens to them and they like it, they find it useful in their lives, and Evil which are the unexplained things that happen to them and that make their lives more difficult (or simply they just don't appeal them for any other reason). This IS our limited thinking, generated by fear and slackness. This is also because of the examples we get, because we grew up being taught that there is a god. Because it's concept that was born in our memory (early childhood) before we had any form of advanced awareness as well as the ability of using rational thinking. This why the concept of god and Santa and the easter bunny are very much alike. Because they're legends produced by other people, they are myths and symbols at best. Because none of there three show any sign of existence. You "reasons" to support the existence of god were composed by inner feelings which have nothing to do with an authentic philosophical inquire. Also the personalisms you made only show your inability to debate and have nothing to do in this forum. I hope I made myself myself perfectly clear and if you wish to continue this discussion, I'd suggest that you use reason instead of compulsive thinking.
-------------------- ![]() ![]() ![]() All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
| |||||||
|
explorer ofmetap ![]() Registered: 09/19/07 Posts: 201 Loc: carrollton, tx Last seen: 13 years, 10 months |
| ||||||
Quote: This creates problems, because it seems that you believe that the identity of a person is relegated to their body. What is this about an Easter Bunny? You think that the Easter Bunny is analogous with somebody's personality? Because that was the whole point of the metaphor.A person's body only provides evidence for that person's body is what you're saying, correct? I hope I am reading you right and am not making any false assumptions. Does a corpse have the same identity as a living body? What philosophical, categorical and linguistic steps do you have to make to provide a distinction? We can discuss those if I stick around long enough. ![]() I hate trying to discuss philosophy with naturalistic atheists. They always assume that there is only one kind of philosophy and are quite dogmatic about their position (irony ) that only that which can be directly observed exists and is worth discussion. ![]() I honestly am not interested in those kinds of discussions. I'd probably rather talk with a group of fundamentalist Christians, which is saying alot.
-------------------- "I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou ![]() "To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald
| |||||||
|
Atheistic Mystic Registered: 04/08/07 Posts: 606 Loc: Here and there Last seen: 10 years, 11 months |
| ||||||
Quote: It also explains their values towards their bodies. Anything above the breasts is good, and worthy, producing great thoughts and anything below the waist, oh noo, noo. Don't even think about it.
-------------------- Pray, v.: To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy - Ambrose Bierce Medical science has confirmed what the male world has known intuitively for millenia: that scratching your ass is a great aid to complex thinking. Its God's responsibility to forgive the terrorist organizations such as Jaish, Lashkar etc. Its our responsibility to arrange the meeting between them and god." - Indian Armed Forces "Hey Monkey!! Get Funky" - Tarzan and Jane
| |||||||
|
Registered: 04/15/05 Posts: 11,089 |
| ||||||
|
Someone's personality is the expression of their consciousness, so their personality would not exist after they died, but their BODY still would. I'm saying that the Easter Bunny is as related to the evidence of the existence of an individual as is the existence of God to the existence of the natural world.
IMO, it is an illogical extrapolation to claim that the factual evidence of the existence of the natural world is PROOF that God exists, which is what you have claimed. BTW, your personalisms detract from the progression of a reasonable discussion of this topic. If you cannot refrain, then perhaps this is not the forum for you.
| |||||||
|
Dr. Teasy Thighs Registered: 12/02/05 Posts: 14,794 Loc: red panda villag Last seen: 2 years, 10 months |
| ||||||
Quote:
-------------------- ![]() ![]() ![]() All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
| |||||||
|
explorer ofmetap ![]() Registered: 09/19/07 Posts: 201 Loc: carrollton, tx Last seen: 13 years, 10 months |
| ||||||
|
Then perhaps you have allowed your conception of my beliefs to be clouded by past experience. I know for myself that none of those statements are applicable to me.
I don't know where you get that I was basing my thoughts upon inner feelings, but think that it may stem from your questionable bias about 'authentic' philosophy, whatever that may mean to you. I refrained from making any personal statements throughout most of this thread (when others did make them). I have found those to be unfruitful to a good discussion. However, when it broke down into a meta-discussion filled with personal statements, that is what we got. You'll notice that with Icelander I tried to minimize these kinds of statements (did not react with personal statements in return for the most part, or at least minimized them). When you came around towards the end, you made assumptions about my beliefs, and so I made a statement about those assumptions and why I could not continue a discussion with you because you were unwilling to give actual explanations for your statements. I am sorry if you took that personally, though. Basically, to sum up, I find it incredible that people are so willing to just abandon the wealth of knowledge, thought and philosophy of past centuries and try to create a new mode of thought entirely on their own. Something has gone seriously wrong with our culture. -------------------- "I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou ![]() "To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald
| |||||||
|
explorer ofmetap ![]() Registered: 09/19/07 Posts: 201 Loc: carrollton, tx Last seen: 13 years, 10 months |
| ||||||
Quote: Because of a preconcieved notion of the concept of God I am espousing? Quote: I did not say that in the least. I merely said that the nature of the kind of God I am referring to is expressed by the natural world. I then went on to say that if we are going to discuss whether God exists or not, it must be a philosophical inquiry and not an empirical one. I was merely switching the means of inquiry. This is why I think naturalistic atheists are terrible at philosophy. The naturalistic assumption doesn't seem to give much room for the possibility of a good discussion of metaphysics. Quote: But Icelander gets to stay? ![]() BYE, you guys!
-------------------- "I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou ![]() "To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald
| |||||||
|
Registered: 04/15/05 Posts: 11,089 |
| ||||||
Quote: More accurately, you find it incredible that people question/doubt the validity of the God concept. There is a wealth of knowledge, thought and philosophy which does not require faith. For those of us to whom faith is unreasonable and unnatural, these realms of knowledge provide all the inspiration for creative living we require.
| |||||||
|
The Minstrel in the Gallery Registered: 03/15/05 Posts: 95,368 Loc: underbelly |
| ||||||
|
those who are simply content with leaving things in the horrible state that they are.
OK you didn't say life was horrible you said it was in a horrible state. I say life is not in a horrible state. It's a beautiful day today in my neighborhood. Life IMO is good and bad. light and dark, joy and pain, all the things that make the Ultimate Tao. It's all one thing and it's all happening, and were just one part and no more important (or less) then an ant or a grain of sand. U.R.B.4.U.R.I don't believe in a creator but in creation itself. I believe we create a creator in our image to feel safe in an unending, unlimited, chaotic creation that is beyond finite understanding. Being finite, and confronted with infinity is anxiety provoking at times. That's one reason why people fear death. They don't know what death is or what will happen so they make up beliefs to reassure themselves of their continued existence even though there is no real evidence for it. That seems to be human nature. I came here looking for philosophical discussions, and I will likely find better ones elsewhere. Awww, careful or you might hurt someones feelings. ![]() But I agree. I was looking for a better debate myself but as for S&P I would have to say I have had worse. So I say good luck to you on your search, -------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
| |||||||
|
Beyond Registered: 05/07/04 Posts: 6,697 Loc: Between Last seen: 3 years, 16 days |
| ||||||
|
I think, basic concepts should be covered with less words
--------------------
| |||||||
|
Dr. Teasy Thighs Registered: 12/02/05 Posts: 14,794 Loc: red panda villag Last seen: 2 years, 10 months |
| ||||||
Quote: No. It's a pure psychological proven fact, and my own experience of reality adds to those facts. ![]() Quote: Hmm let's see :Quote: And Quote: And Quote: And the list could go in forever and ever but I think I made my point. All that you stated here is directly linked to inner experiences, to inner mental processes. Why? Because you present no fact. or evidence. Quote: See? I looked REALLY good but nothing like that in your affirmations. ![]() Quote: Then do it instead of bitching about my perspective upon philosophy. ![]() Quote: The philosophy of past centuries has many flaws. There's nothing wrong with improving the concept of philosophy in accordance to our needs, in order to make our lives less confusing. And I should add that Parmenides idea on philosophy, the one I referred to earlier, is not what I would call "new". ![]() Real philosophy is about reason, and not the mumbo jumbo, phantasmagoric, a la Alice in Wonderland people are used to.
-------------------- ![]() ![]() ![]() All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
| |||||||
|
Blue Fish Group Registered: 04/01/07 Posts: 45,414 Loc: Under the C |
| ||||||
Quote: It does. If it were rational, then we could all follow along step-by-step.
| |||||||
|
The Minstrel in the Gallery Registered: 03/15/05 Posts: 95,368 Loc: underbelly |
| ||||||
|
By definition yes that's true. God is a belief not a verifiable fact. Not for most people anyway and that makes it somewhat suspect. Just the fact that almost everyone who believes in a God defines it differently is very, very suspect. If you are really willing to look at things like this you may quickly or slowly come to the conclusion that each person defines God according to subjective personal needs.
To know the mind of God if there is one is to know what infinity is about and we just can't IME. My conclusion from examining available evidence is that God is a made up thing. But I don't know for sure. I have to trust my ability to look at what is apparent evidence to me, and come to a best guess. -------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
| |||||||
|
Blue Fish Group Registered: 04/01/07 Posts: 45,414 Loc: Under the C |
| ||||||
Quote: Is that an Oregon, er, an Orgone Conclusion?
| |||||||
|
The Minstrel in the Gallery Registered: 03/15/05 Posts: 95,368 Loc: underbelly |
| ||||||
|
Looks like both.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
| |||||||
|
Blue Fish Group Registered: 04/01/07 Posts: 45,414 Loc: Under the C |
| ||||||
|
Christ healing the baby raptor is such a touching avatar.
| |||||||
|
The Minstrel in the Gallery Registered: 03/15/05 Posts: 95,368 Loc: underbelly |
| ||||||
|
Well they did live in the same time period. Jesus baptized many dinosaurs and gave them the message of hope. Those that heard and repented of their evil dinosaur ways are in heaven with him now.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC Edited by Icelander (10/05/07 01:59 PM)
| |||||||
|
Beyond Registered: 05/07/04 Posts: 6,697 Loc: Between Last seen: 3 years, 16 days |
| ||||||
|
"To know the mind of God if there is one is to know what infinity is about and we just can't IME"
Just for an example: At least in our conception, it can invalidate the linearity of the causality of our timeline, as making the beginning and the end of time a cause of infinity, like in singularity, where no linear time does exists by definition.. This would allow other streams of causations to come into play, like karma, where you can be reborn even in past history (even with having 'free will' !), and where your 'karma'-level is that, what would be considered 'linear', not the timeline, anymore. --------------------
| |||||||
|
Mycoticus psychoticus Registered: 09/10/07 Posts: 875 Loc: North-east USm'f'nA Last seen: 4 months, 11 days |
| ||||||
|
Studying the Bible as a child doesn't count for anything. Most adults have a hard time understanding it. And if you studied at a denomonaitional college, like you said baptist...then you were taught legalism more than likely and not what the Bible says for itself...I was forced too as well which is why I went the other way but when I came back and read it myself it doesn't say what they say it does...people are fallible and the Bible tells Christians to check every preachers word with the Word to see if the 2 stand. You can BS all you want but unless you read it a few times cross referencing the greek in questionable areas then I stand on what I said, you trash it only because you don't know what the hell you are talking about....but that is a common thing at the shroomery...nonsense by the threadful....just because it sounds good doesn't make it true....and I am ok with drugs....more against getting shitfaced drunk...
Funny how a book so complex is read by a child and you think you know? Theologists read it over and over only to grasp a lil of the profound insight within... -------------------- aka NHMI
| |||||||
|
HarmReductionist Registered: 04/25/07 Posts: 148 Loc: Hamilton, New Ze Last seen: 10 years, 7 months |
| ||||||
|
I think that's a great tie in to the original accusation of organised religion being mind control.
I know of 19 year olds who take bible study classes for kids. And for these kids, they don't really realise what they are being taught. They would see this book as another book, hard to understand but luckily they have a 19 year old telling them what it means. How could you possibly teach someone beliefs? How can you teach someone who they are? It doesn't make any sense to me....unless you were trying to control people. -------------------- Well it's alright riding around in the breeze Well it's alright if you live the life you please Well it's alright doing the best you can Well it's alright as long as you lend a hand
| |||||||
| |||||||
| Shop: |
|
| Similar Threads | Poster | Views | Replies | Last post | ||
![]() |
Fire Walking and Mind Control | 1,889 | 16 | 02/02/02 04:12 PM by Swami | ||
![]() |
Mind? Control Techniques ( |
3,527 | 26 | 04/30/02 03:17 PM by Insomniac | ||
![]() |
MKULTRA: CIA Mind Control | 1,664 | 10 | 07/28/02 10:43 PM by InOut | ||
![]() |
(((((mind control))))) | 1,536 | 16 | 04/11/02 06:47 AM by Tannis | ||
![]() |
Human mind vs body(Re:the self post) ( |
3,763 | 24 | 05/03/10 04:11 PM by BluePixieWaves | ||
![]() |
religion rant | 1,063 | 12 | 08/10/03 06:31 AM by fireworks_god | ||
![]() |
philosiphy of religion ( |
9,881 | 77 | 08/10/01 03:58 AM by Zen Peddler | ||
![]() |
Mindfulness and Control ( |
3,353 | 28 | 02/11/04 09:29 AM by Frog |
| Extra information | ||
| You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum 14,267 topic views. 1 members, 12 guests and 2 web crawlers are browsing this forum. [ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ] | ||

. Except to say this:
).






_ 


can one evolve













