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Offlinestellar renegade
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Re: What do Organised Religion and Mind Control have in common? [Re: Icelander]
    #7479102 - 10/02/07 10:28 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Yes death and decay and suffering is just as important to the continuation of life on this planet as love and nurturing. To put God outside of this is just pure nonsense as there is not support for this in the definition of a "supernatural all powerful and inclusive" creator.



But how does death and decay and suffering make the point for the senseless murder propagated by Hitler?  There's a difference, y'know.  Hitler intentionally killed people; nature does not intentionally do anything.  The original point was that you were trying to tell me that Hitler's view is just as valid as any other, and I was trying to demonstrate how it's not.  For someone like Hitler to say that one type of person (and the methodology of defining the 'type' is questionable at best) is less worthy of life is to create an imposed view of things.  Death is unbiased.  I could go on about how death's 'contribution' merely attests to the strength of life to multiply even in the presence of death, but I digress.

Quote:

Icelander said:
You are just making this up as you go along. Attributing things to a God that you could not ever really know unless he was made in your image. Ever consider all the contradictory views on God out there? There is a good reason for this. Not a lot of contradiction on the chemical make up of water though. Good reason for that too.



I'm sorry, but no, I'm not.  I have given this very thorough thought for years.  Your quick synopsis over a message board does not necessarily do give an adequate summation of my thought processes.  You are very quick to judge, my friend.

I have considered the contradictory views of God.  Many of them can be reconciled simply by view of the principle of paradox.  Many others cannot and are absurd notions that cannot be held about anything or have no application and are merely words.

Quote:

Icelander said:
Really when I read your posts it sounds like you are directly speaking for God and know his mind and intentions. And this my fluffy friend is how I have come to throughly believe that your ideas are full of :poop::monkeydance:



Some of those statements I make only to back them up later with my reasoning behind why God could not be any other way.  But then you again play fast and loose and claim to have the inside info of what I'm getting at even though it often ends up being a strawman or an underdeveloped response which does not really address the issue.  If you're not willing to give this serious contemplation then tell me now so we don't have to keep going in circles here.  :banghead:


--------------------
"I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou

"To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald


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Offlinestellar renegade
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Re: What do Organised Religion and Mind Control have in common? [Re: Icelander]
    #7479198 - 10/02/07 10:53 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I didn't say life was a dream and I dreamed up you and your funny posts. I said it could be just as much as a million other things. The fact is that I cannot, with my finite mind, understand the workings or motivations of anything that is infinite. And anyone who can stand to be uncertain will readily admit to this.



Notice that I never said that you did. But the issue was whether it was possible (or reasonable?) to be so acquainted with the essence of something or someone that you could not possibly hold them to be unreal, even if life were just a dream. You replied that it was possible to love someone yet still believe that they may not be real, then attacked the position of absolutely believing that they are. I attempted to dismantle your attack, and then you made it sound as if I were suggesting that your view is that life is nothing but a dream. No, I was addressing the possibility in your mind of nothing being real.

Quote:

Icelander said:
I don't have to know what God is or thinks or if it exists at all. I can still be happy and enjoy what seems to be happening to what I call me and still look out in wonder on all of it. And I don't need to be sure about any of it or that I am (my personality structure) meaningful or purposeful in any particular way. This at one time was much more anxiety provoking than it is now. Actually taking large doses of psychedelics helped a lot. Knowingly or unknowingly I was working through my own personal Bar do ala The Psychedelic Experience; not to mention my daily life, relationships and posting and debating here. (Actually debating here has really opened my eyes to how we are all just guessing about just about everything)



I don't have to know those things to be happy, either. But that does not negate the possibility of knowing them and of that knowledge increasing happiness even more. As long as we're going by personal testimony, I'll insert my own.

I was raised an evangelical much as you were. I had debated with atheists from time to time over the years, but at a certain point I joined a message board where it became a habit to go to, and participated in debates with atheists on a continual basis. After awhile, serious doubts began to arise in my mind about my beliefs. I felt as if I had a choice between remaining temporarily secure in my beliefs (which was growing less satisfying by the moment) and stepping into the deep, dark void. I did not know if I would ever be able to find anything out there, and this made it scary. It seemed as if I would drown in darkness and almost unconsciousness. I struggled with this for a good little bit, but my curiosity won out and because I desired the truth so much I decided that as frightening as it was, I would allow myself to be swallowed up by it rather than remain deluded.

Awhile later (possibly even a couple of months, I am not sure) I remember being in the library reading some postmodern poetry and feeling the lostness of it. The library closed and I began walking across the street. I remember the moment distinctly as one moment I was on the sidewalk and the next I was venturing out into the street and suddenly everything was scary. The whole world was filled with vast darkness. I felt as if everything had lost meaning all of a sudden and that nothing was sure.

I went home and began writing some poetry of my own, and my parents came in and asked if I wanted to go to church with them. I politely declined as I felt that it was entirely too hokey for me. That night and the night following (or maybe a couple nights afterward) I had some very dark dreams. Those would require several paragraphs each, but needless to say they concerned the same issue that I was dealing with.

Perhaps you're right in that my explanations are coming too quick and easy. I've constantly needed to learn to relax and take things slowly and have patience. Even after learning these deep and dark lessons and then coming out the other side (though it took what seemed forever through a constant process of dying inside) the process may not totally be complete within one's mind and one may try too hard to excitedly explain the answers to these heart-wrenching problems. At times I struggle with not being able to develop quick enough, feeling as if I'm inadequate to the task, only to momentarily feel as if perhaps I'm trying to speed up too quickly. Perhaps it's a combination of both.

Either way, I appreciate you reminding me of that experience and of this great truth. We all need to recognize the vast void of existence and unknowing; it often comes in walks in nature or simply by being silent in one's room. Oftentimes I'll listen to ambient or background music to meditate on the largeness of everything. It's hard to balance two very different extremes, but I feel that it must be done if one is to remain truly sane at all.


--------------------
"I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou

"To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What do Organised Religion and Mind Control have in common? [Re: stellar renegade]
    #7480690 - 10/03/07 11:55 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

But how does death and decay and suffering make the point for the senseless murder propagated by Hitler? There's a difference, y'know. Hitler intentionally killed people; nature does not intentionally do anything.


Hitler is nature same as you me and a bug or coyote, you're making up meaning here. For nature and all life there is only life and death. If a grizzly bear kills you or if your brother kills you the effect is exactly the same.

my reasoning behind why God could not be any other way.

Here's my point exactly it's "your reasoning" which is finite and using that finite mind to define the meaning of the infinite. IMO, no can do.

I don't feel like we are going around in endless circles. I enjoy debate and learn from all of it.

Really all I would ask of those who claim to know the will and intent of God is to give me some proofs or say that it is only there best guess at truth. I never have a problem with that position.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinestellar renegade
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Re: What do Organised Religion and Mind Control have in common? [Re: Icelander]
    #7480880 - 10/03/07 12:30 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Hitler is nature same as you me and a bug or coyote, you're making up meaning here. For nature and all life there is only life and death. If a grizzly bear kills you or if your brother kills you the effect is exactly the same.



Yes, but you were talking about Hitler's conception of God.  I was referring to his acts only as a reflection of what kind of God he believed in.  So we're really talking about motives here.  And no, I don't believe the effect is the same.  If an animal kills someone, who would want to take revenge?  They would simply kill it, if that.  It's when our brother, a fellow human, acts against us that we get outraged or troubled.

Quote:

Icelander said:
Here's my point exactly it's "your reasoning" which is finite and using that finite mind to define the meaning of the infinite. IMO, no can do.

I don't feel like we are going around in endless circles. I enjoy debate and learn from all of it.

Really all I would ask of those who claim to know the will and intent of God is to give me some proofs or say that it is only there best guess at truth. I never have a problem with that position.



Well yeah, I was trying to get to the point where I could show you proofs.  Perhaps it's a matter of slowing down and not stating conclusions before I state the evidence, which I can do.  It's just that stating evidence seems almost meaningless at times before stating a conclusion.  Perhaps I can do both at once.  I have no problem with stating it as a guess either.

I like having these discussions, it's just that I don't appreciate when they devolve into implications about the other person.  As long as it's kept out of that this is one of the types of things that I like to do the most. :thumbup:


--------------------
"I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou

"To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What do Organised Religion and Mind Control have in common? [Re: stellar renegade]
    #7481375 - 10/03/07 02:55 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

It's when our brother, a fellow human, acts against us that we get outraged or troubled.


This is a choice we make and we do not have to make it.  It's our self-importance creating meaning and value. That's fine but it's totally subjective to each person.

You have Proofs? Well what are you waiting for?:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: What do Organised Religion and Mind Control have in common? [Re: Icelander]
    #7481420 - 10/03/07 03:07 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

He was waiting for you to ask politely. Soon we will discover what billions of others have failed to find. I am so excited. :cheer:


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Offlinestellar renegade
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Re: What do Organised Religion and Mind Control have in common? [Re: Icelander]
    #7481542 - 10/03/07 03:48 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Wait... you're saying that when somebody runs screaming into your house, yells that he hates your wife's guts and slices her several ways with a knife the only reason you would be moved is because of your self-importance? :what: Or perhaps you wouldn't be moved at all...? :rolleyes:  I would think you would feel incredibly different than if a bear stormed in and clawed her to death.  Wouldn't you feel that the bear had done so out of no malicious or vengeful motive, but simply out of some natural impulse?  Why isn't there a huge emotional difference aside from our self-importance?

As for the proofs, which statements do you want me to prove?  I don't remember speaking for God except to say that a Supreme Being of Love could not condone acts of senseless killing.  That seems to go by the very definition of the thing.  How could promoting senseless acts of killing be love?  If Love promoted killing at all I would think there would be a purposeful meaning behind it in order to further a greater experience of life and love on further down the road.  But such acts would then cease to be senseless.  Unless you're going by a different definition of love than I am, this seems to be obvious.

You also contended that there is such a thing as senseless killing that goes on, so how could a Supreme Being not support it?  But I believe that the existence of such realities, together with all other experiences and in their appropriate context, ultimately provide for greater life and love.  This would probably take an enormous amount of time to defend and may require another thread, but I believe I would be able to defend it.


--------------------
"I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou

"To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What do Organised Religion and Mind Control have in common? [Re: stellar renegade]
    #7482722 - 10/03/07 08:54 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)


Wait... you're saying that when somebody runs screaming into your house, yells that he hates your wife's guts and slices her several ways with a knife the only reason you would be moved is because of your self-importance? :what: Or perhaps you wouldn't be moved at all...? :rolleyes: I would think you would feel incredibly different than if a bear stormed in and clawed her to death.


Right for me there is ultimately no difference in how my partner would die unless I took it personally. She would be dead either way and that would be the important thing for me. This would allow me a chance to accept, without attachment to my own emotional states, the fact that my partner had died.  This would be much healthier than hating or raging about something I have no control over.

Didn't you say you were about to provide some proof. I'll take anything you got. As yes you are speaking for God when you claim to know all his attributes and exclude from his attributes all the other things that go on in his creation.


but I believe I would be able to defend it. As far as I can tell you haven't provided a defense (proof) of anything you have claimed since the beginning of this thread.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinestellar renegade
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Re: What do Organised Religion and Mind Control have in common? [Re: Icelander]
    #7483590 - 10/04/07 01:54 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Right for me there is ultimately no difference in how my partner would die unless I took it personally. She would be dead either way and that would be the important thing for me. This would allow me a chance to accept, without attachment to my own emotional states, the fact that my partner had died. This would be much healthier than hating or raging about something I have no control over.



Well that's a good attitude to have, IMO. Perhaps you're right about it, I don't know.

Quote:

Icelander said:
Didn't you say you were about to provide some proof. I'll take anything you got. As yes you are speaking for God when you claim to know all his attributes and exclude from his attributes all the other things that go on in his creation.



Again, where did I do this besides the one instance I referenced? About that instance I said that I believe ultimately all of that seemingly senseless death has a purpose and an eventually good outcome. Yes, I do believe it's a part of God's nature, but not the most encompassing part. God suffers, too, I think. What I felt you were saying is that God, by implication of my definition, must have murderous intentions since Hitler did. But reading your reply to my example about someone hypothetically murdering your loved one makes me think that is perhaps not what you intended to get across.

Quote:

Icelander said:
As far as I can tell you haven't provided a defense (proof) of anything you have claimed since the beginning of this thread.



Ok, which things would you like me to give a proof of? If you could be more specific I could begin doing so. If you mean you would want me to go back through the whole thread and make a definitive proof for every point and sub-point, I'm not sure I'm willing to do that. It would seem to be a waste of energy and I'd rather just start over in another discussion being more methodical.


--------------------
"I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou

"To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What do Organised Religion and Mind Control have in common? [Re: stellar renegade]
    #7484507 - 10/04/07 11:19 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

stellar renegade said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
I didn't say life was a dream and I dreamed up you and your funny posts. I said it could be just as much as a million other things. The fact is that I cannot, with my finite mind, understand the workings or motivations of anything that is infinite. And anyone who can stand to be uncertain will readily admit to this.



Notice that I never said that you did.  But the issue was whether it was possible (or reasonable?) to be so acquainted with the essence of something or someone that you could not possibly hold them to be unreal, even if life were just a dream.  You replied that it was possible to love someone yet still believe that they may not be real, then attacked the position of absolutely believing that they are.  I attempted to dismantle your attack, and then you made it sound as if I were suggesting that your view is that life is nothing but a dream.  No, I was addressing the possibility in your mind of nothing being real.

Quote:

Icelander said:
I don't have to know what God is or thinks or if it exists at all. I can still be happy and enjoy what seems to be happening to what I call me and still look out in wonder on all of it. And I don't need to be sure about any of it or that I am (my personality structure) meaningful or purposeful in any particular way. This at one time was much more anxiety provoking than it is now. Actually taking large doses of psychedelics helped a lot. Knowingly or unknowingly I was working through my own personal Bar do ala The Psychedelic Experience; not to mention my daily life, relationships and posting and debating here. (Actually debating here has really opened my eyes to how we are all just guessing about just about everything)



I don't have to know those things to be happy, either.  But that does not negate the possibility of knowing them and of that knowledge increasing happiness even more.  As long as we're going by personal testimony, I'll insert my own.

I was raised an evangelical much as you were.  I had debated with atheists from time to time over the years, but at a certain point I joined a message board where it became a habit to go to, and participated in debates with atheists on a continual basis.  After awhile, serious doubts began to arise in my mind about my beliefs.  I felt as if I had a choice between remaining temporarily secure in my beliefs (which was growing less satisfying by the moment) and stepping into the deep, dark void.  I did not know if I would ever be able to find anything out there, and this made it scary.  It seemed as if I would drown in darkness and almost unconsciousness.  I struggled with this for a good little bit, but my curiosity won out and because I desired the truth so much I decided that as frightening as it was, I would allow myself to be swallowed up by it rather than remain deluded.

Awhile later (possibly even a couple of months, I am not sure) I remember being in the library reading some postmodern poetry and feeling the lostness of it.  The library closed and I began walking across the street.  I remember the moment distinctly as one moment I was on the sidewalk and the next I was venturing out into the street and suddenly everything was scary.  The whole world was filled with vast darkness.  I felt as if everything had lost meaning all of a sudden and that nothing was sure.

I went home and began writing some poetry of my own, and my parents came in and asked if I wanted to go to church with them.  I politely declined as I felt that it was entirely too hokey for me.  That night and the night following (or maybe a couple nights afterward) I had some very dark dreams.  Those would require several paragraphs each, but needless to say they concerned the same issue that I was dealing with.

Perhaps you're right in that my explanations are coming too quick and easy.  I've constantly needed to learn to relax and take things slowly and have patience.  Even after learning these deep and dark lessons and then coming out the other side (though it took what seemed forever through a constant process of dying inside) the process may not totally be complete within one's mind and one may try too hard to excitedly explain the answers to these heart-wrenching problems.  At times I struggle with not being able to develop quick enough, feeling as if I'm inadequate to the task, only to momentarily feel as if perhaps I'm trying to speed up too quickly.  Perhaps it's a combination of both.

Either way, I appreciate you reminding me of that experience and of this great truth.  We all need to recognize the vast void of existence and unknowing; it often comes in walks in nature or simply by being silent in one's room.  Oftentimes I'll listen to ambient or background music to meditate on the largeness of everything.  It's hard to balance two very different extremes, but I feel that it must be done if one is to remain truly sane at all.




Your post about your experiences sounds like your attempts to deal with death (darkness/void) anxiety. This I believe to be universal and the reason for the creation of a concept of an "all loving God" who creates the world. Yet there is countless examples of violence, pain, suffering, and hate in the world that this being supposedly created. If one only looks at the insect world closely you would see (by human emotional standards) horrific survival of the fittest and not much else.  So I think that God is a human creation and most likely does not exist.

Now


    Quote:
    Icelander said:
    I don't have to know what God is or thinks or if it exists at all. I can still be happy and enjoy what seems to be happening to what I call me and still look out in wonder on all of it. And I don't need to be sure about any of it or that I am (my personality structure) meaningful or purposeful in any particular way. This at one time was much more anxiety provoking than it is now. Actually taking large doses of psychedelics helped a lot. Knowingly or unknowingly I was working through my own personal Bar do ala The Psychedelic Experience; not to mention my daily life, relationships and posting and debating here. (Actually debating here has really opened my eyes to how we are all just guessing about just about everything)

You said:
I don't have to know those things to be happy, either. But that does not negate the possibility of knowing them and of that knowledge increasing happiness even more. As long as we're going by personal testimony, I'll insert my own.


So what do I want proof of from you? Proof that your God exists or an admission from you that God may or may not exist but you believe he does. If you prove God I'll become a believer. If it's uncertain and you can admit to it then I will become a believer in you.:lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: What do Organised Religion and Mind Control have in common? [Re: Icelander]
    #7484622 - 10/04/07 11:53 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I will readily admit that you might be wrong. :yesnod:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What do Organised Religion and Mind Control have in common? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7484757 - 10/04/07 12:26 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Could I expect less from you? I certainly cannot expect more.;)


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinestellar renegade
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Re: What do Organised Religion and Mind Control have in common? [Re: Icelander]
    #7484980 - 10/04/07 01:35 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Your post about your experiences sounds like your attempts to deal with death (darkness/void) anxiety. This I believe to be universal and the reason for the creation of a concept of an "all loving God" who creates the world. Yet there is countless examples of violence, pain, suffering, and hate in the world that this being supposedly created. If one only looks at the insect world closely you would see (by human emotional standards) horrific survival of the fittest and not much else.  So I think that God is a human creation and most likely does not exist.



Are you saying it sounds like an attempt to avoid the feeling of death anxiety?  I have to ask if you actually read it, and why you think this when it parallels at least in a general sense your own experience.

Of course there is death and survival of the fittest.  Creation has been thrown into dischord and become a world of darkness.  Even philosophy can teach you that this is not all that there could possibly be and that therefore there must be something greater.

I guess what it comes down to is that there are people who search for something better and those who are simply content with leaving things in the horrible state that they are.  There may be people who have a mix of both emotions, though, which makes the search even harder to bear.  It's not a matter of wishing that you yourself could escape it but that this mode of existence would be swallowed up by life entirely.

Quote:

Icelander said:
So what do I want proof of from you? Proof that your God exists or an admission from you that God may or may not exist but you believe he does. If you prove God I'll become a believer. If it's uncertain and you can admit to it then I will become a believer in you.:lol:



This is a ridiculous request.  You expect for such a transcendent being as God to be proven by a couple of arguments on a message board?  It takes a great deal of persuasion and experience for most people to be able to really percieve God.  It's like one ant asking another for the necessary information by transmitting through its antennae to make it believe that the huge undulating hunk of land they are on is actually a giant organism.

No, it would require an individual search wherein one discovers more and more about their means of existence and the world around them.  It could not be done in an hour or even a week.  It usually takes a great deal of time to really discover God.  Anything less would reveal a cheap god, nothing really worth searching for.

Besides, I hear you guys saying all the time, "God doesn't exist," or "There's not really any evidence for God."  Where's your proof for that?  The truth is that we have different worldviews shaped by our experiences and it's going to take awhile for us to be able to reconcile them.  It won't happen overnight.  The best we can do is to try to help each other with what we've learned.


--------------------
"I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou

"To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: What do Organised Religion and Mind Control have in common? [Re: stellar renegade]
    #7485184 - 10/04/07 02:25 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Are you saying it sounds like an attempt to avoid the feeling of death anxiety? I have to ask if you actually read it, and why you think this when it parallels at least in a general sense your own experience.

Of course there is death and survival of the fittest. Creation has been thrown into dischord and become a world of darkness. Even philosophy can teach you that this is not all that there could possibly be and that therefore there must be something greater.




Philosophy teaches you what? :eek:
No no, I think you must be confusing.
All philosophy does is admit that we don't know... almost anything. :smirk:
That's entirely different from suspecting that there's something "grater" in the sense that you imply. Please don't make of philosophy something utopian, because it's not and it would be a shame to persist in this idea. We're talking about philosophy only when it comes to measurable quantities and reliability.

Quote:

I guess what it comes down to is that there are people who search for something better and those who are simply content with leaving things in the horrible state that they are.




And what is horrible about this reality, about how things are going on right now? I fail to see your point. One can look for better alternatives of being without feeling depressed or frustrated by how things are at the present moment.
In fact, being all negative about the current reality obstructs us from finding better and more efficient ways of living, because, instead of making rational choices, we act on impulse.
I think that what matters is the motivation. And if the motivation is coming from a lower, much unaware aspect of ourselves, the outcome can never be constructive.
When we have a healthy attitude, when our motivation comes from the joy of live and the pleasure on experiencing the quality of life under all it's aspects, then we are able to have a much wider and righteous understanding.

Quote:

This is a ridiculous request. You expect for such a transcendent being as God to be proven by a couple of arguments on a message board? It takes a great deal of persuasion and experience for most people to be able to really percieve God. It's like one ant asking another for the necessary information by transmitting through its antennae to make it believe that the huge undulating hunk of land they are on is actually a giant organism.




On the contrary.
It is ridiculous to believe in something that shows no signs of existence. How does this belief help me, in any practical terms, to enrich the quality of my life?
People believe in god because of inertia, because it's one of the longest legend oh mankind. But that's all there is. A legend.
You sustain that god exists, this is a debate forum and of course you will have to come up with arguments to prove his existence. Or if you can't, then simply just drop the idea. :shrug:

Quote:

No, it would require an individual search wherein one discovers more and more about their means of existence and the world around them. It could not be done in an hour or even a week. It usually takes a great deal of time to really discover God. Anything less would reveal a cheap god, nothing really worth searching for.




Now you're talking about personal preferences.
This is something else than the subject and purpose of this discussion.
Each of us is free to believe in anything we wish. This however has nothing to do with a universal truth, therefore it's better to keep it private.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What do Organised Religion and Mind Control have in common? [Re: stellar renegade]
    #7485480 - 10/04/07 03:55 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Are you saying it sounds like an attempt to avoid the feeling of death anxiety? I have to ask if you actually read it, and why you think this when it parallels at least in a general sense your own experience.

Everyone has death anxiety IMO. I'm not different. The only difference between us is how we deal with it.

Creation has been thrown into dischord and become a world of darkness. Even philosophy can teach you that this is not all that there could possibly be and that therefore there must be something greater.


First of all it's humanity that's in perceived (by itself) dischord. The rest of nature has always been thus. As to your second sentence here it's nonsense that there must be something greater. This comes from whole cloth out of your head. Life can just be the way it is and has been, nothing else must be or is. More death anxiety IMO.

I guess what it comes down to is that there are people who search for something better and those who are simply content with leaving things in the horrible state that they are.

Things seem to be in a "horrible state" because that's what you believe. Others like myself do not think this is true. Life and nature just is, and includes light/dark, love/fear, living/dying and this has always been so. Again you are deciding the meanings and purpose of life and beyond based on your fallible, limited, human, emotional needs and  perceptions. In this you seem fully programmed.

It takes a great deal of persuasion and experience for most people to be able to really percieve God.

Which may also mean that God doesn't exist. If God were real like a tree then it would be self evident which it is not because likely it's not there.;) Of course like any true believer you cannot be convinced by logical thinking but rather by magical thinking.

Besides, I hear you guys saying all the time, "God doesn't exist," or "There's not really any evidence for God." Where's your proof for that?

He's the difference which you continue to ignore. I don't claim to know either way. Because of the lack of evidence for a God I tend to believe that there is none but am not sure. I need offer no proof of this. You on the other hand bear the burden of proof as you claim to know what truth is. So lets see it or back off. Of course you can't because it creates anxiety in you to not know this. I think this has been established in this debate in the way you doggedly hang on to your beliefs without being able to provide proof in any way to those of us who ask you to back your claims and refuse to acknowledge that you might just possibly be wrong.:monkeydance:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinestellar renegade
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Re: What do Organised Religion and Mind Control have in common? [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7486712 - 10/04/07 10:20 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Philosophy teaches you what? :eek:
No no, I think you must be confusing.
All philosophy does is admit that we don't know... almost anything. :smirk:
That's entirely different from suspecting that there's something "grater" in the sense that you imply. Please don't make of philosophy something utopian, because it's not and it would be a shame to persist in this idea. We're talking about philosophy only when it comes to measurable quantities and reliability.



Educate yourself: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy

Anyway, the line of thought I understand to justify what I was saying goes something like this: if something causes you discomfort, it must come from some kind of knowledge of something better than it.  How could you be uncomfortable with what you've known nothing better than or have no potential capacity to know anything better than?

Also, I like the Freudian slip (I guess that's what it is) with the statement you made, "You must be confusing."  lol. :tongue2:

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
And what is horrible about this reality, about how things are going on right now? I fail to see your point. One can look for better alternatives of being without feeling depressed or frustrated by how things are at the present moment.
In fact, being all negative about the current reality obstructs us from finding better and more efficient ways of living, because, instead of making rational choices, we act on impulse.
I think that what matters is the motivation. And if the motivation is coming from a lower, much unaware aspect of ourselves, the outcome can never be constructive.
When we have a healthy attitude, when our motivation comes from the joy of live and the pleasure on experiencing the quality of life under all it's aspects, then we are able to have a much wider and righteous understanding.



Please tell me you know how to read in context.  Icelander said, "horrific survival of the fittest".  I was responding to this.

Let's put it this way.  If life is good, then that which is opposed to life is opposed to good.  I've already stated that ultimately, it's all for the good, so I'm not getting "all negative" about it.  Where you get that, I do not know.

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
On the contrary.
It is ridiculous to believe in something that shows no signs of existence.



The natural world is one sign of its existence, according to my viewpoint of it.

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
How does this belief help me, in any practical terms, to enrich the quality of my life?



Enrichment of the quality of your life is rooted in a certain state of mind, correct?  And if you believe that the whole world is energized by a single source of love and life and peace that unites everything, wouldn't that practically uplift your soul to the point of enrichment?

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
People believe in god because of inertia, because it's one of the longest legend oh mankind. But that's all there is. A legend.
You sustain that god exists, this is a debate forum and of course you will have to come up with arguments to prove his existence. Or if you can't, then simply just drop the idea. :shrug:



You have yet to prove that that's all there is to belief in God.  You've made a supposition and now I'm asking you to prove it.

The only arguments which can be made for a person's existence are philosophical ones.  If you observed my friend's body and said that you didn't think they existed, then the problem would seem to be that you didn't believe in their identity as a person.  The problem would then be philosophical.  If you look at the natural world and say that God doesn't exist, then the problem would seem to be that you don't believe in God's identity as a person.  The natural world is the embodiment of the Supreme Being I'm speaking of.  So, the problem is philosophical in nature.

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Now you're talking about personal preferences.
This is something else than the subject and purpose of this discussion.
Each of us is free to believe in anything we wish. This however has nothing to do with a universal truth, therefore it's better to keep it private.



What. on. earth. are. you. talking. about? :what:

How can a belief be a personal preference?  Shouldn't all beliefs concern themselves with the truth of things?  And how did I come even close to speaking about this kind of "personal preference" for belief?  Unless I misunderstand you, you seem to be mixing postmodernism with empirical atheism.  Do you halfway believe in relativism or something?  Or maybe you misunderstood my comment, and I don't understand how you misunderstood it, therefore I don't understand the response you gave.  But that's whacked out.

Let me explain.  Even science is based on an empirical methodology.  We are subject to our experiences to help us examine universal truth.  We have no other input data to use but experiences by which to interpret the world around us.  Now don't get me wrong, I'm not speaking of 'experiences' in the sense that they include the personal interpretation of that experience, but just the plain experience itself.  All the data which comes through our senses.  So if we can't know anything except that which we experience, then why are you talking about personal preferences with me?  All I'm saying is that this same type of examination should be used for God as anything else.  We must examine and interpret our experiences in order to give the best explanation for them.  The problem comes when people have different experiences, different data to analyze and come to different conclusions about things.

This whole conversation is really giving me a headache...


--------------------
"I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou

"To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald


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Offlinestellar renegade
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Registered: 09/19/07
Posts: 201
Loc: carrollton, tx
Last seen: 13 years, 10 months
Re: What do Organised Religion and Mind Control have in common? [Re: Icelander]
    #7486867 - 10/04/07 11:17 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Are you saying it sounds like an attempt to avoid the feeling of death anxiety? I have to ask if you actually read it, and why you think this when it parallels at least in a general sense your own experience.

Everyone has death anxiety IMO. I'm not different. The only difference between us is how we deal with it.



I kept the bolded quote of my statement inside my quote of your statement so that you could easily read what I said again.  I didn't ask you if you thought I had death anxiety.  I asked you if you thought I was trying to avoid it.  Earlier you said that it sounded like I was trying to deal with death anxiety, and now you're saying there are different ways to deal with it.  Very well, what is the difference?

Quote:

Icelander said:
First of all it's humanity that's in perceived (by itself) dischord.
The rest of nature has always been thus.



Prove it!

Quote:

Icelander said:
As to your second sentence here it's nonsense that there must be something greater. This comes from whole cloth out of your head. Life can just be the way it is and has been, nothing else must be or is. More death anxiety IMO.



If there is the capacity for something greater, then that greater must (at least possibly) exist.  It's simple philosophy.

Quote:

Icelander said:
Things seem to be in a "horrible state" because that's what you believe. Others like myself do not think this is true. Life and nature just is, and includes light/dark, love/fear, living/dying and this has always been so. Again you are deciding the meanings and purpose of life and beyond based on your fallible, limited, human, emotional needs and  perceptions. In this you seem fully programmed.



Fully programmed by what, pray tell?

Is there nothing that is horrible?  Where does the word come from, then?  Where does the thought and feeling come from?  And where are we to place the emotion if there is nothing to apply it to?  Can you regard both love and equality for those of the Jewish race and their senseless extermination and herding into concentration camps in the same light?  Wouldn't one seem to be horrible and the other not?  To see them both the same way would seem to be more or less total disconnectedness.

Light and dark are not equal.  The one is greater than the other.  Light invades darkness and makes a mockery of it.  One day it could invade all of the darkness.  There is both substance and emptiness.  The one is an aspect of energy and matter, and the other does not truly exist.  Darkness is not a part of nature.  The word darkness is a placeholder like the number zero is.  It represents a state of being which has the potential for completion but is not yet what it could be.

To say that light and darkness are equally balanced is foolish nonsense.  Even science should have taught you better.

Quote:

Icelander said:
Which may also mean that God doesn't exist. If God were real like a tree then it would be self evident which it is not because likely it's not there. :wink: Of course like any true believer you cannot be convinced by logical thinking but rather by magical thinking.



Of course like any non-believer you see a living body and think it to be inanimate.

Quote:

Icelander said:
He's the difference which you continue to ignore. I don't claim to know either way. Because of the lack of evidence for a God I tend to believe that there is none but am not sure. I need offer no proof of this. You on the other hand bear the burden of proof as you claim to know what truth is. So lets see it or back off.



'Back off'?  Do you feel intimidated or something?  I'm not pushing you into a corner, we're just having a discussion.

I was simply referring to comments you've made elsewhere which amount to, from my memory, an absolute negative statement against God's existence.  It may have been an emotional statement or exaggeration of the way you feel on the subject, but my point simply was that one does not necessarily have to provide proofs for one's statements in order to make them.  Plenty of people make all kinds of statements as fact without explaining them.  If you would like for me not to, then I'll discontinue, my friend.  I don't mind.  The sooner to end this meta-discussion! :lol:

Quote:

Icelander said:
Of course you can't because it creates anxiety in you to not know this. I think this has been established in this debate in the way you doggedly hang on to your beliefs without being able to provide proof in any way to those of us who ask you to back your claims and refuse to acknowledge that you might just possibly be wrong.
:monkeydance:



1) How could I prove something to you which has so many aspects to it that they could not all be contained in one conversation or even (possibly) one lifetime?  Secondly, what kind of proofs are you looking for?  The difference between believing in the existence of a tree and believing in the existence of an all-encompassing, transcendental, metaphysical being is that one only requires casual observance and the other requires rigorous mental and emotional exercise to percieve every aspect of.  The kind of god you could believe in otherwise, I'm not even interested in.

2) Why would someone state the possibility of being wrong about what they are certain of?  If we're sitting on either side of a table with an apple between us, and I ask you to please admit the possibility that this apple does not exist, why would you feel the need to do so?


--------------------
"I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou

"To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: What do Organised Religion and Mind Control have in common? [Re: stellar renegade]
    #7487406 - 10/05/07 05:18 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Educate yourself: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy

Anyway, the line of thought I understand to justify what I was saying goes something like this: if something causes you discomfort, it must come from some kind of knowledge of something better than it. How could you be uncomfortable with what you've known nothing better than or have no potential capacity to know anything better than?

Also, I like the Freudian slip (I guess that's what it is) with the statement you made, "You must be confusing." lol. :tongue2:




Thank you for offering to educate myself, but I think I had much better sources when I made that statement. So it still stands.
Just so you know, reading some info from wikipedia is not called "making research" or instructing oneself, since it only contains surface data.
I am well aware of the many meanings of the word philosophy and also which one has proved to be more efficient and righteous.
I am gonna give you a little quote (from your own link) that could maybe shed some light in your mind regarding our conversation:

Quote:

Though no single definition of philosophy is uncontroversial, and the field has historically expanded and changed depending upon what kinds of questions were interesting or relevant in a given era, it is generally agreed that philosophy is a method, rather than a set of claims, propositions, or theories. Its investigations are based upon rational thinking, striving to make no unexamined assumptions and no leaps based on faith or pure analogy. Different philosophers have had varied ideas about the nature of reason, and there is also disagreement about the subject matter of philosophy. Some think that philosophy examines the process of inquiry itself. Others, that there are essentially philosophical propositions which it is the task of philosophy to prove.




Now, we're not talking about what having a "philosophy of mind" means (which is just a parable that is not to be taken ad literam), and if you payed enough attention to the info you yourself gave me you would have realized that we're referring to the mainstream of philosophy, which is western:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy#Western_philosophy

I think that a better and more accurate idea about what philosophy is about was conducted by Parmenides. I'll take the liberty of suggesting you a reading, which in my opinion is brilliant, and worth payed attention to. It's a book called "To think like god" - Arnold Hermann, and which, contrary to the title, logically and eloquently disproves the existence of god (amongst other things). :smirk:

Quote:

Please tell me you know how to read in context. Icelander said, "horrific survival of the fittest". I was responding to this.




I know what you were replying to, and also I was able to detect the sense in which his statement was made.

Quote:

The natural world is one sign of its existence, according to my viewpoint of it.




And like I said earlier, your view point is one thing and proving it is another. Until now you failed at the latter.

Quote:

Enrichment of the quality of your life is rooted in a certain state of mind, correct? And if you believe that the whole world is energized by a single source of love and life and peace that unites everything, wouldn't that practically uplift your soul to the point of enrichment?




Thank you, but I very much prefer enrichment through reality, not through delusion. We must look for real ways to sustain and lift our way being, and god, santa and the easter bunny don't fall under that category.

Quote:

You have yet to prove that that's all there is to belief in God. You've made a supposition and now I'm asking you to prove it.




It is observable with the naked eye. :smirk:
Besides, you started discussing about god's existence, so you're the one who have to prove your point.
But for your own clarification, I'll suggest you another book called "the god delusion" - Richard Dawkins.

Quote:

The only arguments which can be made for a person's existence are philosophical ones. If you observed my friend's body and said that you didn't think they existed, then the problem would seem to be that you didn't believe in their identity as a person. The problem would then be philosophical. If you look at the natural world and say that God doesn't exist, then the problem would seem to be that you don't believe in God's identity as a person. The natural world is the embodiment of the Supreme Being I'm speaking of. So, the problem is philosophical in nature.




If I looked at your friend and said he didn't exist I would probably be deluded since my eyes would be seeing the obvious.
As for the natural world, it already exists by itself, why call it god? I see no reason in doing so, and it only confuses people.
I hope that you have enough reason and maturity to note the difference.

Quote:

What. on. earth. are. you. talking. about? :what:

How can a belief be a personal preference? Shouldn't all beliefs concern themselves with the truth of things? And how did I come even close to speaking about this kind of "personal preference" for belief? Unless I misunderstand you, you seem to be mixing postmodernism with empirical atheism. Do you halfway believe in relativism or something? Or maybe you misunderstood my comment, and I don't understand how you misunderstood it, therefore I don't understand the response you gave. But that's whacked out.

Let me explain. Even science is based on an empirical methodology. We are subject to our experiences to help us examine universal truth. We have no other input data to use but experiences by which to interpret the world around us. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not speaking of 'experiences' in the sense that they include the personal interpretation of that experience, but just the plain experience itself. All the data which comes through our senses. So if we can't know anything except that which we experience, then why are you talking about personal preferences with me? All I'm saying is that this same type of examination should be used for God as anything else. We must examine and interpret our experiences in order to give the best explanation for them. The problem comes when people have different experiences, different data to analyze and come to different conclusions about things.

This whole conversation is really giving me a headache...




Read all the above.
And yes, I understood very well what you said, only that, since there is nothing to prove the existence of god, I call believing in it a personal preference.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisibleAlteredAgain
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Re: What do Organised Religion and Mind Control have in common? [Re: Yosefxp]
    #7487422 - 10/05/07 05:46 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

IMO,

organized religion and mind control go hand in hand,
and the same can go for any personal religion.

my beliefs can be influenced from without, by the group, by society,
but they can just as easily be controlled by the habits and mechanics of my own mind, from within.

it's a two way street. both don't permit to redefine one's simulation of god.

to anybody seeking to liberate themselves from certain systems of belief, i suggest to do the extraordinary.

create a situation outside of your familiar programming,
and swim in the joy of experiencing yourself in a new way.


--------------------


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: What do Organised Religion and Mind Control have in common? [Re: AlteredAgain]
    #7487473 - 10/05/07 06:29 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

:smile:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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