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Icelander
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Re: What do Organised Religion and Mind Control have in common? [Re: stellar renegade]
#7477073 - 10/02/07 11:06 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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but to be intellectually honest I cannot think of another scenario wherein there would be no G-d.
The difference here is that I am open to any possibility and you can't manage it.
Feel free to bow out of any debate at any time. You're probably all worn out.
Oh and yes we internalize an image like perception of what we come in contact with but it could be a completely incorrect internalization.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: What do Organised Religion and Mind Control have in common? [Re: Icelander]
#7477083 - 10/02/07 11:09 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Stellar vs. Old Fellar
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stellar renegade
explorer ofmetaphysicaldepths



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Re: What do Organised Religion and Mind Control have in common? [Re: Icelander]
#7477086 - 10/02/07 11:09 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: Oh Boy is this non-sense! Something you don't like isn't God but what you agree with is. And I thought you were doing well in this debate.
All descriptions of God must be said to be God? This goes back to using the term "God". Perhaps it was foolish to allow myself to continue the usage of the term as it does appear to be troublesome for you.
With any concept, the parameters must be established - not by outward perceptions, but through inward perception. Why must Hitler's God be my God, or let us even say, why must Hitler's God be the God? The Supreme Being of Love could not possibly endorse senseless acts of violence. To say that I renounce Hitler's God but hold to my own is not essential nonsense, it's a matter of internal reasoning. We cannot fool ourselves by accepting all things which go by the same name in the marketplace. We must analyze the nature of a thing and thereby come to its true form.
Why don't I like Hitler? For the same reason that no one else does. For the same reason that I believe that God doesn't (as regards Hitler's nature, of course). But both the Supreme Being of Love and the dark god of selfishness are being called by the same name. Why? Because our foolishness and senselessness abound and we care not to annihilate them from within. Instead we build ramparts and shoot cannons over the top hoping not to miss our target. The word 'God' has been abused but so will any new word which comes along to try to capture the essence of the original concept.
I guess all of our explanations and meanderings in this life are in flux at best. But recognizing this we must also see that a person may not always mean what we think they mean.
-------------------- "I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou
 "To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald
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Icelander
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Re: What do Organised Religion and Mind Control have in common? [Re: stellar renegade]
#7477099 - 10/02/07 11:15 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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The Supreme Being of Love could not possibly endorse senseless acts of violence.
This shows how little you know. Nature/God is built on violence as any teenager could tell you. You are completely making up God in your own image and based on your fears and anxieties and that is becoming ever more clear as the debate continues. If there is a conscious creator then it creates all things that are manifest, nothing else makes sense and are IMO the ramblings of a new age fluffy with a bad case of undiagnosed death anxiety.
Oh, and some people do like Hitler.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (10/02/07 11:16 AM)
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shakercee
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Re: What do Organised Religion and Mind Control have in common? [Re: Icelander]
#7477120 - 10/02/07 11:23 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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They create their gods and set limits on what he can do or not do.
What if Vatican comes to know jesus had enjoyed masturbation. The present Pope would have a bad case of hiccups.
-------------------- Pray, v.: To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy - Ambrose Bierce Medical science has confirmed what the male world has known intuitively for millenia: that scratching your ass is a great aid to complex thinking. Its God's responsibility to forgive the terrorist organizations such as Jaish, Lashkar etc. Its our responsibility to arrange the meeting between them and god." - Indian Armed Forces "Hey Monkey!! Get Funky" - Tarzan and Jane
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stellar renegade
explorer ofmetaphysicaldepths



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Re: What do Organised Religion and Mind Control have in common? [Re: Icelander]
#7477121 - 10/02/07 11:24 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: The difference here is that I am open to any possibility and you can't manage it.
Feel free to bow out of any debate at any time. You're probably all worn out.
Oh and yes we internalize an image like perception of what we come in contact with but it could be a completely incorrect internalization.
I'm not tired in the least. The question is whether it is of any fruitful consequence to continue. I do feel that there's an aspect to this that I hadn't seen before, so I'll keep going.
As far the other two statements, I feel that they approach the same issue... if once you have ever known something for what it is, you could not possibly concieve of a different reality. An apple may not be the apple that you think it is, but once you've bitten into it and cut it up and made applesauce, you know that it exists beyond just your explanations of it. Somehow you know that, even if your experience has merely been a dream you have been in, you have somehow come into contact with a real apple. Why? You have captured its essence; you have internalized it.
If you've ever loved anyone, you will feel the same as regards them. You could not possibly bring yourself to say, 'This person may not exist'. It would feel as if you were wronging their existence by saying so.
The same way as it applies to God. It could be said that you could never fully come into contact with an infinite being, but by cutting up apples and making applesauce and having friends and marrying I may feel that I have been coming into contact with God all along. And if I have felt that I captured the essence of God beyond all my explanations, that even if this life is a dream or if this Essential Being seems to be an illusion, that it is somehow still true and I have come to know him with an internal knowledge.
Now, when it comes to this internalization, something kind of funny happens. We can never take away from it, but we can always add to it and make it more complete. I can never feel as if that apple or that friend never existed, at least to the degree that I have come to really know them. And what if you have never felt you have come to know God? You would say it is easy to forget him; all you have ever had were explanations. But to come into direct contact with the essence of all existence, like coming into direct contact with your friend, and knowing them, it is something entirely different to say that they never existed and you have forgotten all about even the possibility of their existence. A real friend you can never forget. The existence of that which you have come to love is unforgettable.
And this is why I say I cannot imagine the possibility of a universe without God; call it an individual matter, but it's still there.
-------------------- "I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou
 "To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald
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Icelander
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Re: What do Organised Religion and Mind Control have in common? [Re: stellar renegade]
#7477138 - 10/02/07 11:32 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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If you've ever loved anyone, you will feel the same as regards them. You could not possibly bring yourself to say, 'This person may not exist'. It would feel as if you were wronging their existence by saying so.
I have loved many and can entertain the possibility that they never existed. There are so many unknowns to the finite mind. I could have dreamt the whole thing and when I awaken all this life could have been the illusion of reality (dream). I just don't really know what reality is. I can only guess. What I object to in fluffernauts is there inability to realize that they are not knowing reality but just a best guess from a finite mind that is full of programs implanted when they were children and without their permission and now believe that is who they are. Any honest person IMO will admit that their whole belief system is just a best guess. The others are in the grip of their fears and anxieties and need assurance that there is something real and solid and looking out for them. This is nothing but self indulgent self importance and insecurity.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
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Re: What do Organised Religion and Mind Control have in common? [Re: shakercee]
#7477143 - 10/02/07 11:33 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
shakercee said: They create their gods and set limits on what he can do or not do.
What if Vatican comes to know jesus had enjoyed masturbation. The present Pope would have a bad case of hiccups.
Zactly!
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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stellar renegade
explorer ofmetaphysicaldepths



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Re: What do Organised Religion and Mind Control have in common? [Re: Icelander]
#7477157 - 10/02/07 11:37 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: This shows how little you know. Nature/God is built on violence as any teenager could tell you. You are completely making up God in your own image and based on your fears and anxieties and that is becoming ever more clear as the debate continues. If there is a conscious creator then it creates all things that are manifest, nothing else makes sense and are IMO the ramblings of a new age fluffy with a bad case of undiagnosed death anxiety.
Oh, and some people do like Hitler.
Nature is built on violence? This is something I have certainly never learned. Do we exist through violence? If the origin of our life has never come about through violence, then why would more life come about through it? Violence doesn't propagate life, though it may sometimes be a natural result of it or make room for more of it. But violence is not contained within the essence of life, it is found outwardly. And even if violence were conducive towards life, it would not then be said to be senseless.
There is a sense in which a higher power may allow an act of senseless violence to occur if only by means of attaining a higher end - that of causing good men to rise up and do something about it. Teach a man to fish, and you feed him for a lifetime. Teach wise men to fight for the integrity of being and you will promote goodness throughout the world. It's the same wisdom as leaving the child to clean their own room or allowing the chick to hatch out of its own egg. It requires a light touch.
So, in the scheme of things, in a world of disorder and chaos imposed on a world of life and beauty, we are led to momentarily believe that this is all there is, when we are to fault ourselves for the reality we have created. It's not the death anxiety of the believer but of those within the seed who are yet waiting to die and afterwards spring to new life. But the believer knows what's yet beyond the shell.
-------------------- "I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou
 "To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald
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stellar renegade
explorer ofmetaphysicaldepths



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Re: What do Organised Religion and Mind Control have in common? [Re: Icelander]
#7477189 - 10/02/07 11:48 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: I have loved many and can entertain the possibility that they never existed. There are so many unknowns to the finite mind. I could have dreamt the whole thing and when I awaken all this life could have been the illusion of reality (dream). I just don't really know what reality is. I can only guess. What I object to in fluffernauts is there inability to realize that they are not knowing reality but just a best guess from a finite mind that is full of programs implanted when they were children and without their permission and now believe that is who they are. Any honest person IMO will admit that their whole belief system is just a best guess. The others are in the grip of their fears and anxieties and need assurance that there is something real and solid and looking out for them. This is nothing but self indulgent self importance and insecurity.
But what if those others do not exist? What if it is only you imagining people who are too self-important to admit that their theories of reality are at best just a guess? This would mean that you are merely projecting outward in order to comfort yourself about your own internal world. This mental projection cannot ultimately be avoided, but can be used as a means of processing rather than mental masturbation and self-stimulation.
What power does a program have over an individual and over internalization? If it is all a dream, then you might as well accept the dream, as nothing else truly exists. If you yourself are the only reality then at least accept the part of yourself that could create such wonderful dreams as the people you have interacted with and the nature you have meditated upon. In any case, those things will be more real to you simply by means of being more powerful. If you have not focused on them well enough, however, and have simply floundered about in the muddy puddle of your own closed off self, then of course they will be less real to you. But by stepping outward and taking the chance that there is something more than just your own miserable self-existence (as we all must do), you might find something both more wondrous and more real than you have yet experienced at the same exact time.
-------------------- "I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou
 "To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald
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Icelander
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Re: What do Organised Religion and Mind Control have in common? [Re: stellar renegade]
#7477204 - 10/02/07 11:53 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Yes death and decay and suffering is just as important to the continuation of life on this planet as love and nurturing. To put God outside of this is just pure nonsense as there is not support for this in the definition of a "supernatural all powerful and inclusive" creator.
You are just making this up as you go along. Attributing things to a God that you could not ever really know unless he was made in your image. Ever consider all the contradictory views on God out there? There is a good reason for this. Not a lot of contradiction on the chemical make up of water though. Good reason for that too.
Really when I read your posts it sounds like you are directly speaking for God and know his mind and intentions. And this my fluffy friend is how I have come to throughly believe that your ideas are full of 
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (10/02/07 11:55 AM)
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Re: What do Organised Religion and Mind Control have in common? [Re: Icelander]
#7477207 - 10/02/07 11:55 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
I could have dreamt the whole thing...

Icey thinks, "Now, I am walking in the sun along a pristine river in search of rainbow trout..."
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Icelander
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Re: What do Organised Religion and Mind Control have in common? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7477210 - 10/02/07 11:56 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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With a naked blond holding my rod.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Re: What do Organised Religion and Mind Control have in common? [Re: Icelander]
#7477219 - 10/02/07 12:00 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Watch out for treble hooks!
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: What do Organised Religion and Mind Control have in common? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7477231 - 10/02/07 12:05 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I'm sure she will let him use her "bobbers."
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Icelander
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Re: What do Organised Religion and Mind Control have in common? [Re: Veritas]
#7477235 - 10/02/07 12:06 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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BlueCoyote
Beyond



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Re: What do Organised Religion and Mind Control have in common? [Re: Icelander]
#7477362 - 10/02/07 12:49 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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"Not a lot of contradiction on the chemical make up of water " Uh, bad example  At least water has some extra-natural attribute, which doesn't fit into the snugness of physical laws exactly. Its density anomaly from 0 to 4 degree celsius. Uh, MYSTERY G*D Just a remark  Nice thread, btw.
edit: And yes, stellar lost his credibility here as he stated everyone dislikes Hitler. What a nonsense of poor wishful thinking.
Edited by BlueCoyote (10/02/07 12:51 PM)
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Icelander
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Re: What do Organised Religion and Mind Control have in common? [Re: stellar renegade]
#7477574 - 10/02/07 02:11 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
stellar renegade said:
Quote:
Icelander said: I have loved many and can entertain the possibility that they never existed. There are so many unknowns to the finite mind. I could have dreamt the whole thing and when I awaken all this life could have been the illusion of reality (dream). I just don't really know what reality is. I can only guess. What I object to in fluffernauts is there inability to realize that they are not knowing reality but just a best guess from a finite mind that is full of programs implanted when they were children and without their permission and now believe that is who they are. Any honest person IMO will admit that their whole belief system is just a best guess. The others are in the grip of their fears and anxieties and need assurance that there is something real and solid and looking out for them. This is nothing but self indulgent self importance and insecurity.
But what if those others do not exist? What if it is only you imagining people who are too self-important to admit that their theories of reality are at best just a guess? This would mean that you are merely projecting outward in order to comfort yourself about your own internal world. This mental projection cannot ultimately be avoided, but can be used as a means of processing rather than mental masturbation and self-stimulation.
What power does a program have over an individual and over internalization? If it is all a dream, then you might as well accept the dream, as nothing else truly exists. If you yourself are the only reality then at least accept the part of yourself that could create such wonderful dreams as the people you have interacted with and the nature you have meditated upon. In any case, those things will be more real to you simply by means of being more powerful. If you have not focused on them well enough, however, and have simply floundered about in the muddy puddle of your own closed off self, then of course they will be less real to you. But by stepping outward and taking the chance that there is something more than just your own miserable self-existence (as we all must do), you might find something both more wondrous and more real than you have yet experienced at the same exact time.
Nice bunch of fluffernaut gobbledegook. I applaud your determined effort to avoid anxiety.
I didn't say life was a dream and I dreamed up you and your funny posts. I said it could be just as much as a million other things. The fact is that I cannot, with my finite mind, understand the workings or motivations of anything that is infinite. And anyone who can stand to be uncertain will readily admit to this.
I don't have to know what God is or thinks or if it exists at all. I can still be happy and enjoy what seems to be happening to what I call me and still look out in wonder on all of it. And I don't need to be sure about any of it or that I am (my personality structure) meaningful or purposeful in any particular way. This at one time was much more anxiety provoking than it is now. Actually taking large doses of psychedelics helped a lot. Knowingly or unknowingly I was working through my own personal Bar do ala The Psychedelic Experience; not to mention my daily life, relationships and posting and debating here. (Actually debating here has really opened my eyes to how we are all just guessing about just about everything)
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (10/02/07 02:13 PM)
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Cubensi
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Re: What do Organized Religion and Mind Control have in common? [Re: fivepointer]
#7478348 - 10/02/07 06:20 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
fivepointer said: Your "religion" says: All things are relativistic No true universal right and wrong God doesn't exist Do what seems right
Aren't you just as bad about the dogmatism of your "religion"? Why are you trying to convert others to your way? Sounds like your brainwashed.
I don't think that this is what everyone on this forum thinks, and, if they do believe these statements, many believe them because they have come to the conclusion themselves, not because they're dogmatic. The very fact that you are telling him what he believes is kind of rediculous.
The type of person likely to be posting on a philosophy and spirituality forum is most likely the kind of person who has formed beliefs through careful thought, not dogmatism.
In response to "why are you trying to convert others to your way", I think that he is expressing his feelings toward the church. Are you shaming him for expressing his views? I think that if he has a good argument, people will believe him, and probably not otherwise. But it's their prerogative to do that- to hell with intentions.
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Above the Propaganda
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....



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Re: What do Organised Religion and Mind Control have in common? [Re: Yosefxp]
#7478888 - 10/02/07 09:30 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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What do you define "mind control" to be.....?
From Wikipedia: Mind control is a general term for a number of controversial theories and/or techniques designed to subvert an individual's control of their own thinking, behavior, emotions, or decisions.
However, rather than mere psychological conditioning, many mind control 'experiments', like the CIA MK-Ultra projects[1], have focused primarily on physical violence or torture as the principal methods to force victims to do what they do not want to do. Physical torture, nevertheless, affects the functioning of the victims' nervous systems including the brain. Forms of torture that may affect the nervous system include beatings, gunshot wounds, stab wounds, asphyxiation, prolonged suspension and electrocution. [2]
The feasibility of such control and the methods by which it might be attained (either direct or more subtle) are subject to debate among psychologists, neuroscientists, and sociologists. Also, the exact definition of mind control and the extent to which it might have any kind of influence over individuals are debated.
The different views on the subject do have legal implications. For example, mind control was an issue in the court case of Patty Hearst, and in several court cases involving New Religious Movements. Also, questions of mind control are regarding ethical questions linked to the subject of free will.
The question of mind control has been discussed in conjunction with religion, politics, prisoners of war, totalitarianism, neural cell manipulation, cults, terrorism, torture, parental alienation, and even battered person syndrome.
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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