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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: What do Organised Religion and Mind Control have in common? [Re: leery11]
    #7471210 - 09/30/07 05:21 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

first you need to be able to relax
such passion
such charged metaphors
these strike like double edged swords
heal and go slow in this area.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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InvisibleEgo Death
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Re: What do Organised Religion and Mind Control have in common? [Re: Yosefxp]
    #7471287 - 09/30/07 05:51 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Brainwashing is everwhere - it starts when your parents 'raise' you.


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OfflineOposx
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Re: What do Organised Religion and Mind Control have in common? [Re: Ego Death]
    #7471320 - 09/30/07 06:12 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ego Death said:
Brainwashing is everwhere - it starts when your parents 'raise' you.




I agree, and I think only the individual can recognize his own state of being brainwashed and then, if he chooses to, get out of it. Trying to convince someone he is brainwashed will not work.


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InvisibleExiztenzial
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Re: What do Organised Religion and Mind Control have in common? [Re: Yosefxp]
    #7471353 - 09/30/07 06:23 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Yosefxp said:

1: Consequences. If you see a sign that says don’t take this cookie or you will be fined $0.20c; the consequences are trivial and you’ll take the tasty cookie. But let’s say another sign says don’t take it or you’ll go to prison. You’ll probably go without. Now imagine a sign that says you’ll spend eternity in hell. It’s a no brainer right? That’s what organised religion wants you to think.





This is unfortunately far too true, and there doesn't even have to be a reward (like the cookie) involved. Witness the chain mails that tell you a story about a person dying a horrific death, and then tell you that if you don't pass the story on to x more people that the spirit will come back to kill you. Most people, unfortunately, will pass the message on, because "well, it's probably not true, but just in case..." Same thing with religion.


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InvisibleExiztenzial
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Re: What do Organised Religion and Mind Control have in common? [Re: rizingfire]
    #7471380 - 09/30/07 06:33 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

rizingfire said:
plus science says instinct takes over everything for survival so what is suicide?




1. We humans as a species have developed into the 'living in cities working 9-5 to support our lifestyles' far faster than any biological evolution could possibly catch up. That obviously has effects on our physical and mental well-being, though what the effects are is not rigidly clear.

2. In some community forming species, for example, ants, members will in fact sacrifice themselves so that the community has a better chance to survive. Sometimes human suicides parallel this, for example Willy Loman in Death of a Salesman.


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InvisibleExiztenzial
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Re: What do Organised Religion and Mind Control have in common? [Re: leery11]
    #7471399 - 09/30/07 06:41 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

leery11 said:
because the story of Jesus is accurately, the story of a man who defied the authorities of man-kind, government, and religion, and radically subverted much of the status-quos to teach inner realization

for this he was crucified because people incessantly said he was a demon or otherwise blasphemous

though he spake truly

and he spoke truly because of this:
he was his own authority figure, he spoke from the Father

that is, his own inner-God, he was self-actualized and he wasn't afraid to express it

so he did it.

the Bible attempted to encapsulate this, and if you read it the right way it will work for you the right way and it will be Good





I think this is probably the best interpretation of Christianity I've ever heard.


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OfflinePsylo_Subliminal
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Re: What do Organised Religion and Mind Control have in common? [Re: leery11]
    #7471409 - 09/30/07 06:45 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

The easiest way to sum up that question is " We tell you what to believe, and so you believe it " that seems like mind control to me.


--------------------
I smoke 2 joints in the morning,
I smoke 2 joints at night,
I smoke 2 joints in the afternoon,
It make me fell alright.

I smoke 2 joints in a time of peace
and 2 in time of war,
I smoke 2 joints before i smoke 2 joints,
and then I smoke 2 more.


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InvisibleAlion
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Re: What do Organised Religion and Mind Control have in common? [Re: leery11]
    #7471450 - 09/30/07 07:05 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I thought about this a long time ago and how it can relate to other 'factions' that use the same tactics
(EX:)
average american:
Please salute,and say god bless america!
nazi's:
Please Raise, your hand and say hail hitler!


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InvisibleCracka_X
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Re: What do Organised Religion and Mind Control have in common? [Re: Yosefxp]
    #7472205 - 09/30/07 10:14 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

i feel ya.

Some people need religion and some people don't(understand it).

I can't remember where I read this from. But the quote goes something like this.

"You make a raft to cross a river, would you lug the raft with you after you've crossed the river?"

Anyhow, the author was relating the raft to religion. We don't need religion 24/7 to guide us through our life, unless you're that certain somebody who's in a never ending ocean. That sounds like more of a personal problem then.


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing


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OfflineYosefxp
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Re: What do Organised Religion and Mind Control have in common? [Re: Cracka_X]
    #7472584 - 10/01/07 12:30 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Hey everyone...thanks for the replies. I love a good debate :laugh:

Quote:

rizingfire said:
It's funny how you guys blast Christianity but Christ wasn't for organized religion either




Quote:

Yosefxp said:
Now don’t get me wrong, I’m not specifically attacking Christianity here. I think it’s a perfectly good religion, probably one of the better ones out there




So yeah, I totally get you but I have nothing against Christianity it's just the organized part of it. The part of it that makes it their mission to 'recruit' people. They go for the weak: young impressionable children or drug addicts who are trying to get help (See the 12 steps of alcoholics anonymous. Rule 3: Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him). That is my problem with organised religion. I just use christianity as an example because it is the most prevalent in my society.

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Your "religion" says:
All things are relativistic
No true universal right and wrong
God doesn't exist
Do what seems right

Aren't you just as bad about the dogmatism of your "religion"? Why are you trying to convert others to your way? Sounds like your brainwashed.




First off, here's a prime example of a religious person thinking they're more right then anyone else. Not even acknowldeging my belief as a religion. Good work sir.

Secondly your interpritation of my religion is slightly off. Yes I believe all things are relativistic and there is no true right and wrong but when I say there is no god, I am saying there is no god for me. If you have looked inside yourself and found god then god exists for you and you are 100% right when you say he exists, but all you can know is that he exists for you.

Western science is influencing your thinking. You believe that if you discover something and you know it to be true then it is universally true. Now this is quite possibly true for anything discovered in the physical world, we all know that spirituality is something not of this earth so there's no way you can claim to generalise from your own personal experience.

As for your last comment, when I tell people about my beliefs I am saying "Look inside yourself and find out for yourself what is right and wrong, don't listen to others about what to believe." When you tell others about your belief you are saying "This is what I believe and this is what you should believe. Don't listen to yourself, listen to me because I am 100% right and everyone else is 100% wrong."

You are guilty of trying to organise other peoples specific beliefs. I am just trying to tell people that their specific beliefs are already inside them and they are 100% right for them.

Quote:

leery11 said:
as soon as you let any other authority figure (aside from those who are awakened in CONSCIOUSNESS) interpret the Bible for you, you are becoming demoniacally possessed through mind-control




Yeah that's it as it applies to bible. Although you seem to be treading on dangrous ground with that 'awakened in consciousness' comment. I personally would do away with the bible, it's too old, too poorly translated. Times change, the answers in the bible are far too old and outdated (see passages about homosexuality, eating meat, having long hair)...besides the answers are inside us all, not some book.

Quote:

Mycomyth said:
My take on organized religion is....
If it wasn't necessary, it wouldn't exist. Many need those structures along their way home.

M




Perhaps but we all have an appendix that we don't need and all they do is cause us trouble by bursting or inflaming.

Quote:

Ego Death said:
Brainwashing is everwhere - it starts when your parents 'raise' you.





That is so true, you just have to read Skinners Walden Two to get some idea of the societal brainwashing that happens when we're young and how much we could change things.

I, however, would not compare parents brainwashing with organised religions'. I don't know about you but my parents taught me things like how to speak, what things are dangerous and most importantly to think for myself which is exactly the opposite of what organised religion tries to teach.

Thanks again for the replies everyone....keep them coming :smile:


--------------------
Well it's alright riding around in the breeze
Well it's alright if you live the life you please
Well it's alright doing the best you can
Well it's alright as long as you lend a hand


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: What do Organised Religion and Mind Control have in common? [Re: Yosefxp]
    #7472630 - 10/01/07 01:05 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

:rolleyes:


Quote:

Yosefxp said:
So I want to know if anyone else thinks this. When I look at organised religion all I see is brainwashing and this is how I see it as working.



what is brainwashing? could you define it for us?
webster defines it as:
  1  : a forcible indoctrination to induce someone to give up basic political, social, or religious beliefs and attitudes and to accept contrasting regimented ideas  2  : persuasion by propaganda or salesmanship 

Are one of these the definition you would say fit your use of the word brainwashing?
It is so easy to throw that word around.... it conjures up this image of some Disney villain wringing his hands in fervor as they entrance someone to do their bidding.... some puppetmaster.



Quote:

In my experience there are two types of people in organised religious groups: The ones who know and the ones who don’t. They are really easy to distinguish...all you have to do is walk up to someone and start a conversation about religion: if they start listening to you and try to relate what they believe to what you believe then you have someone who knows. If they stand there, refuse to listen and tell you they’re wrong; they don’t know.



Doesnt this kind of sound like the openminded/closed-minded argument?
If they listen to what I have to say, then they are cool, if they dont, then they are obviously idiots.


Quote:

We live in a material world. We spend most of our lives living outside ourselves: at work, school, socializing and many people can spend their entire lives living out there without ever pausing to look inwards and this is where organised religion gets its’ foot in the door.



so they get their foot in the door... at some point in your life. I really think that this fantasy you have in your head is how you see the world.... maybe you are spending too much time ooklgni ardinw.
I think very few people in this world were fully "coerced" from simple humdrum living to full blown televangelist.
Most people have some cognition (be it real or delusional, doesnt matter right now) which makes them search for answers.... and if during that search, they find someone or something that really clicks with them and seems to be answers or atleast great explanations to some of their question, then they adhere and learn more.
I dont really see what the difference is between someone handing a depressed person a bible or some LSD... and the guy with the bible realizes that this materialistic world is fleeting and finds peace in believing he is eternally cared for, and the guy with the LSD who realizes that this materialistic world is fleeting and becomes an ascetic searching the himalayas for his Guru.it seems to me that you would consider bible man to have been brainwashed, even though he came to his conclusions on his own via the bible, and the LSD guy was somehow independantly enlightened.
I think you are trying to villainize the entire concept of organized religion through a strawman argument based on one aspect of an extreme form of proselytizing.


Quote:

We all have a need to feel part of something bigger than ourselves but at the same time we are incredibly lazy so when someone comes along with a 2000 year old book and says this will tell you everything you need to know; we take it. We see everyone else at church happy in their ignorant bliss seemingly fulfilled and want a part of it. We go to church we can be told by a man, in black and white, what is wrong and what is right. And while you’re at it he can tell you exactly how to live your life for you.



what exactly is it that you are doing with this post? would this not be persuasion by propaganda or salesmanship?
Did you watch the martin luther king speech? that was a man in black and white telling us what was wrong and right. was that wrong?
This is what I dont get.... why does it bother you what other people choose to believe in? if you are so vehement about this "no such thing as wrong or right" (which I adhere to by the way), then why are you so adamant about outing this (fantastical) idea you have about organized religion?

Quote:

He can stir up the crowd and make you think that the feeling of crowd hysteria is actually god inside you (see a fundamentalist church service). And to top it all off he will tell you that this is the only one true correct way and that everyone else is wrong just to add to the sense of belonging to this elite and righteous club.



kind of like a fraternity right? or maybe doctors? PETA? EPA? college?

this propaganda and crowd hysteria you want to pin solely on religion is all around us, it has pervaded every aspect of our society.... and there is always someone leading the charge.
Revolutions wouldnt occur without righteousness. but that is different right?

Quote:

Now the really sad part is most people can actually feel themselves saying that this particular religion is wrong for them. They feel like they want to go out and party, drink and do drugs and many of them do before the conditioned-by-the-church sense of guilt creeps in the next day. They know that what is being taught is wrong but organised religion is smart, tricky and it’s had 2000 years of practise. They have a word for that feeling:



You dont think that maybe it is a feeling of weakness that overcomes them? that they broke a promise to themselves? Through their religion they have laid out a plan to get their life "on track" and they believe that it will happen by following these rules that they either thought up themselves, or accepted.
What is the difference between being on a diet because you want to lose weight, and refraining from pork because your beliefs say so? you made a promise to yourself either way, because you feel that it will make you a better person.



Quote:

It’s the people who don’t know that I feel the worst for. They have had their own personal religion suppressed for so long, had WHO THEY ARE buried to the point where they will believe anything they are told. When I try to have a conversation with one of these people I am reminded of the people of North Korea or Nazi Germany. Brain washed.



Im sure they really enjoy your pity.... if that isnt one of the most pretentious and self-righteous paragraphs Ill start using apostrophes.

Quote:

In behavioural psychology there are two types of learned behaviour in humans. Rule governed and contingency shaped. Rule governed is seeing a sign on an electric fence and learning not to touch it from reading the sign. Contingency shaped would be actually touching the fence and learning by being in contact with the contingencies not to touch the fence. As you can see, rule governed behaviour is much easier; you don’t get shocked. With organised religion we see a series of rules that must be followed; with true religion we see people looking inside and feeling what is right and wrong.



ah, true religion. Now I see. true religion.
So, if someone else believes what you believe, it cant be true?

Quote:

1: Consequences. If you see a sign that says don’t take this cookie or you will be fined $0.20c; the consequences are trivial and you’ll take the tasty cookie. But let’s say another sign says don’t take it or you’ll go to prison. You’ll probably go without. Now imagine a sign that says you’ll spend eternity in hell. It’s a no brainer right? That’s what organised religion wants you to think.



yeah, but who's cookie are they protecting? this is an incomplete analogy.
Are you sure it just applies to organized religion? I have talked to tons of people who claim to be an atheist or "free thinker" but adhere to Karma.

Quote:

2. Authority. We believe people who are famous and successful. How many of our governments are religious based? How many celebrities thank god in their Oscar speeches? Paris Hilton’s converted to Christianity??? Let’s do it!



so Paris Hilton is in on the organized religion conspiracy? how many people thank their parents in speeches? they are obviously trying to make us believe that their parents are good people.

Quote:

3. Past experience. This is where religion gets even the best of us. Most people would have to agree that killing is wrong. Stealing is wrong. Being nice to others is good. We know that and our personal religion probably agrees. But hang on a minute; so does my local church! Wow, they happen to be part of the 10 most important rules in the whole religion. Well I guess if they get the important ones right they must be on the right track. Genius. They actually use our own personal religions to lure us in, to tell us something that we’ll almost certainly agree with and get that positive spiritual feeling flowing before they cram us full with other ideas about how homosexuality is immoral and it is our job to ‘help’ people see the light.



you are spiraling out of control on this one. Do you check under your bed every night to see if their is a bishop under it?


Quote:

At the end of all that their rules seem all too easy to follow don’t they? You bet, and after the first few years of repressing who we are we learn how to follow the rules and ignore the contingencies which show up as feelings and we learn that they aren’t us, as they are in fact Satan tempting us.



so... you laugh at people when they believe that Satan is tempation, but write a 3 page, serious essay about how organized religion subverts peoples logic and brainwashes them.
I get it.
satan=evil persuasion = HA HA
organized religion = evil persuasion = serious business.




Quote:

You know who you are. Just sit down and meditate, go on a spiritual discovery mission, take a psychedelic drug and you will find it. Don’t listen to anyone else!! They don’t know you. And please, PLEASE stay away from organised religion. They are masters at mind control (or should I call it soul control :wink:).

Peace,
Yosef.



I am now selling scented candles and incense made solely from Yosef's feces.


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OfflineYosefxp
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Re: What do Organised Religion and Mind Control have in common? [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #7472834 - 10/01/07 03:17 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Clearly you have completely missed the entire point of my argument.
I am not telling people what to believe!!! I can’t emphasise this enough...I am merely making the point that surely, if there is a god or higher being, surely he would have put everything you need to know about how to live your life inside of you. Not ‘out there’ for someone else to decode for you. And I am suggesting that people stop listening to others and listen to themselves.

I am not saying anyone is wrong!!! Another point you seem to have missed.
Quote:

Yosefxp said:
If you have looked inside yourself and found god then god exists for you and you are 100% right when you say he exists




I am saying that everyone is right! Every single person has inside them the knowledge of what’s right and what’s wrong. Organised religion however comes along with the idea that its ideas are the only right and wrong and uses tricks to get people to follow their rules. To try to explain it better I’ll go through your post as you so thoroughly went through mine.

1. Brainwashing in this case would be a mixture of the definitions you give. I believe that people inherently have the knowledge to find out what’s right and what’s wrong so when organised religion comes along, they are trying to make you give up what you know inside you. Of course that’s easy because most people won’t have actually discovered it yet. And they use salesmanship to achieve this. There is no force involved...unless you count making moral standards into laws.
Moral standards about drug use were the very reason the laws were put into place, now the police can forcibly take you away and put you into prison and force you believe what you did was wrong. Same thing with homosexuality, but fortunately that’s almost a thing of the past.

2. It’s not as simple as listening or not listening. It’s more of a display of how well you understand what you believe. Try having a religious conversation with a 5 year old; it won’t work because they don’t really understand what they are told to believe. Same with these people who don’t know: they can remember the rules they have to follow but they don’t really understand them so they get defensive and become impossible to converse with. Whereas people who do know can listen and explain their beliefs in different ways to better get across what it is they believe.

3. I completely agree that if people really search until they find something that ‘clicks’ then they should try to learn more but they need to learn it themselves. Not listen to someone else at a church. I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with reading the bible, I’m saying it’s wrong when someone reads it for you and after 2000 years, it’s been read and translated for you so many times that I would personally throw it away.

And which extreme form of proselytizing did I bring up? I would consider things such as organised religions going door to door, going into public schools, appearing on T.V. trying to convince people to join their religion extreme forms but I didn’t bring up any of those so please enlighten me.

4. You completely missed the point. What people believe in does not bother me at all, but when an organisation uses propaganda and salesmanship to convince millions of people that what they know inside them is wrong; that bothers me.

5. Group behaviour: situations where a large number of people in a given area behave simultaneously in a similar way and have a similar goal, that might be different from what they would do individually (herd behaviour).. NOT like a fraternity, or doctors, PETA, EPA or college. And yes this is all around us. Look at people in riot crowds or sport matches. Acting differently than they know they should because of the influence of the crowd. If you ask anyone who has been in a situation like this they will tell you it’s a very strange feeling and my point is that when this happens in a church, when the people are jumping around singing; they call it god.

6. I’m sure they do feel as if they’ve broken a promise to themselves but if the punisher was high enough then they would never have broken it in the first place. If I truly believe that smoking a joint was going to really piss god off then there’s no way I’d do it. If someone told me and I only half believed it then I probably would do it. As for your eating pork example; it depends on the reasons behind wanting to lose weight. If you really think that your health is failing and you will get sick and die if you don’t then it’s pretty similar to following your religion. If it’s because society’s ideal for a waist circumference is 10cm smaller than yours then it’s similar to organised religion telling you want to think.

7. This has absolutely nothing at all to do with the integrity of my argument. Please stick to attacking the argument.

8. Again, missing the point. Beliefs clearly aren’t mutually exclusive. In fact I’m sure there are people out there who have the exact same set of beliefs as each other.

9, 10 & 11. Well now you’re the one who seems to be losing it. These are just examples of the things that make it more likely for a person to follow a rule. What you’re supposed to do is read all three and realise that organised religion talk about the most extreme consequences, they are in all ranks of authority and they tap in to past experience. All these things make it easier to follow their rules and when you combine all three; you get a very convincing voice and thus a set of rules very easy to follow. All I’m saying is that it makes a lot of sense when you see people following these rules even if they feel differently.

12. If you bothered to try to understand my argument you should have realised by this point that satan in this case is merely a hypothetical construct created by organised religion to suppress what we really believe inside. When someone tells you something you know is wrong, a part of you says “This person is wrong”. But if that part of you was very quiet and unexplored then maybe you wouldn’t know whether or not to listen to it. Maybe you’d be confused as to what to believe. And this is where organised religion says “That’s not actually what you feel, it is satan tempting you.” This accomplishes two things; the first is to help ignore that inner voice and listen to the man with the book and the second is to make people feel that it isn’t them that are feeling like this. It’s satan. And this helps people ignore that voice next time it comes up, and the next time....

Next time, please try to understand what I say before rebutting it. And as for selling candles with my feces, I look forward to you coming around to my house and cleaning them out of my toilet. It saves me pressing flush.


--------------------
Well it's alright riding around in the breeze
Well it's alright if you live the life you please
Well it's alright doing the best you can
Well it's alright as long as you lend a hand


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Offlineleery11
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Re: What do Organised Religion and Mind Control have in common? [Re: Exiztenzial]
    #7473082 - 10/01/07 07:54 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Exiztenzial said:
Quote:

leery11 said:
because the story of Jesus is accurately, the story of a man who defied the authorities of man-kind, government, and religion, and radically subverted much of the status-quos to teach inner realization

for this he was crucified because people incessantly said he was a demon or otherwise blasphemous

though he spake truly

and he spoke truly because of this:
he was his own authority figure, he spoke from the Father

that is, his own inner-God, he was self-actualized and he wasn't afraid to express it

so he did it.

the Bible attempted to encapsulate this, and if you read it the right way it will work for you the right way and it will be Good





I think this is probably the best interpretation of Christianity I've ever heard.




it is still an invocation of SATAN

because the Tibetans, Buddhists, and Hindus will tell you (the Tibetans are Buddhists) that the devil IS GOD

this means that SATAN IS JESUS BECAUSE JESUS IS GOD

this means GOD IS THE DEVIL

Christians cut this right in two, right in two, so that we have an adversary watching us and condemning everything we do.

And as long as people tack in bullshit about Jesus such as 'well THOUGH i agree with you that religion is evil, Jesus was....' and then they define Jesus, they are keeping the story alive that we are EVIL SINNERS DESERVE OF BEING BRUTALLY MURDERED JUST BECAUSE WE POPPED OUT OF A WOMB and this is TYRANNY

so for one to even say Jesus was a good person, on the one hand, exorcises the demons out of him, for the idea of Jesus is a demon entirely revolving around the fires of a fictional hell and a fear of death....... we also vaguely disempower this line of Christian thinking to say that Jesus is Buddha is all people, which is true

but why are you invoking the fires of hell by uttering his evil name?

JESUS IS SATAN .
the way out of hell to then understand SATAN IS JESUS

both sides of the equal are the same. GOD IS THE DEVIL. He created him.

It's a merciless fiction because it splits the yin-yang up and keeps us from safely going into nirvana and the higher voids, by imprisoning us in the lower astral realms where we are supposed to sit here and focus upon a God, tyrant figure, and a devil, and Jesus Christ is the mantra we keep repeating to strengthen this terrible great evil demon and give his illusory flames power.

Only by putting Jesus and Satan together as one :yinyang: can one evolve

so we need to stop giving him good praises, he's a demon archetype. The man who Christ was? First, was Christ a man? Second, the man who Christ was was forever buried in a shadow that no one but a bonafide gnostic can get out of. The Dharma is much more pure.

It is not subject to duality. Albeit the Bible is a form of Dharma as long as we sit here and justify 'well Jesus was an ascended master' we are giving the flames of hell power over our minds because then we compare every single good and true thing we've learned about ascension AGAINST our pre-adolescent programs of fear of the boogeyman, and Jesus is none other than that boogeyman, because SATAN IS JESUS

which means that there is no Satan nor Jesus that they are part of a whole and that all human beings are kept alive through mutual trust and unconditional Love

and then we have the Dharma and/or heart chakra center which comes in through generating compassion towards all peoples, which, yes derrr is the message of Jesus but the TRUE message of "Jesus" (?) is ECLIPSED and this is a strong strong problem

if Christianity IS Buddhism why would you follow Christianity if Christianity raped you when you were a child? Now if Dharma raped you as a child then maybe you ought not to follow Dharma..... it all depends

I write this because I harbor the archetype of devil/shadow/hell and am liberating myself from it, and this is how you get out.

The Bible is a club, it was forged to beat people down, that's why Christians use it that way.

Those who don't, really don't care that YOU ARE GOING TO HELL and YOU NEED TO BE SAVED
they are called 'lazy' those who fully believe are on a jihad of mental violence


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


Edited by leery11 (10/01/07 08:13 AM)


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Offlinestellar renegade
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Re: What do Organised Religion and Mind Control have in common? [Re: Yosefxp]
    #7473270 - 10/01/07 09:49 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Yosefxp said:
So yeah, I totally get you but I have nothing against Christianity it's just the organized part of it. The part of it that makes it their mission to 'recruit' people. They go for the weak: young impressionable children or drug addicts who are trying to get help (See the 12 steps of alcoholics anonymous. Rule 3: Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him). That is my problem with organised religion. I just use christianity as an example because it is the most prevalent in my society.



Wait... you're saying that because people who have trouble with addictions are seeking help from a higher power, they are being preyed upon by brainwashing predators? WTF?? I thought this aligned more closely with a personal religion like you were talking about. Trusting in God, the essence of love and the essence of life. God is in silence, inside the emptiness of the soul (I know that's troublesome language, but I can explain if you need me to).

How is it being victimized to trust something you don't have control over to a higher power who loves you? That seems like the most simplistic, individual thing you can do. It has nothing to do with organized religion. I was surprised they even had something like that in a non-confrontational program like that, but I don't even see it loaded with Christian terminology. It's just very basic.

If the alcoholic were to trust themselves with recovery, then they would be draining an empty well. They know that it's beyond their control, that's the whole point. The problem is that much of humanity tries to rely on itself, forgetting that reliance requires leaning on something greater than yourself, or else it wouldn't be called 'reliance'.


--------------------
"I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou

"To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: What do Organised Religion and Mind Control have in common? [Re: Yosefxp]
    #7473273 - 10/01/07 09:50 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Yosefxp said:
I believe that people inherently have the knowledge to find out what’s right and what’s wrong so when organised religion comes along, they are trying to make you give up what you know inside you.




We develop knowledge through interaction with reality. We have within ourselves the means of succesfully interacting with reality, through the usage of the sensory data that reality's interaction with our sensory devices produces, coupled with the phenomenon of our mind, yet it isn't as though knowledge lies inherent within ourselves. Knowledge is inherent within reality itself, the process of an aspect of reality interacting with all aspects of reality produces knowledge.

Quote:


Of course that’s easy because most people won’t have actually discovered it yet. And they use salesmanship to achieve this.




What is the difference between organized religion and any other individual or institution of individuals that propagates ideas in this regard? Everyone has their conception of reality and their means of presenting it in order for others to find it. Some are more effective in presenting ideas, some aren't. That is pretty much the jist of it. :shrug: 

Quote:


Moral standards about drug use were the very reason the laws were put into place, now the police can forcibly take you away and put you into prison and force you believe what you did was wrong.




How can anyone force you to believe anything? :sherlock:

Quote:


Same with these people who don’t know: they can remember the rules they have to follow but they don’t really understand them so they get defensive and become impossible to converse with. Whereas people who do know can listen and explain their beliefs in different ways to better get across what it is they believe.




It is this way, with humans, regarding any idea or topic for discussion.

Quote:


3. I completely agree that if people really search until they find something that ‘clicks’ then they should try to learn more but they need to learn it themselves. Not listen to someone else at a church.




What is the difference between deciding to go into a church and listen to an individual propose ideas, and entering into a philosophical/spiritual forum to listen to your ideas? No one can learn for you, so I'm not clear as to how organized religion (an abstract conception of the relationship of human beings) can learn for you.

Perhaps you refer to the ways in which some human beings who do not have a mature or developed (relative terms) mind will choose to accept the ideas that others propagate, without employing critical thinking for themselves? "Organized religion", such as it is, clearly isn't responsible for the manners in which individuals choose to utilize their minds.

Quote:


4. You completely missed the point. What people believe in does not bother me at all, but when an organisation uses propaganda and salesmanship to convince millions of people that what they know inside them is wrong; that bothers me.




What bothers you more, that an organization would use means of presentation to bring others to adopt their proposed viewpoint, or that others are incapable of utilizing critical thinking to see past the means of presentation, and contemplate ideas by their own merit? Either way, it is the nature of reality.

Quote:


5. Group behaviour: situations where a large number of people in a given area behave simultaneously in a similar way and have a similar goal, that might be different from what they would do individually (herd behaviour).. NOT like a fraternity, or doctors, PETA, EPA or college. And yes this is all around us. Look at people in riot crowds or sport matches. Acting differently than they know they should because of the influence of the crowd.




The influence of the crowd? This sounds like an evasion of personal responsibility to me, which is certainly not an idea to promote. People act how they decide to act. How have you discerned what others know regarding their actions and how they "should" act? :strokebeard:

Quote:


8. Again, missing the point. Beliefs clearly aren’t mutually exclusive. In fact I’m sure there are people out there who have the exact same set of beliefs as each other.




Beliefs aren't concrete, simply tendencies of thought. Every individual has different thought processes. 

Quote:


All these things make it easier to follow their rules and when you combine all three; you get a very convincing voice and thus a set of rules very easy to follow. All I’m saying is that it makes a lot of sense when you see people following these rules even if they feel differently.




None of this has anything to do with "organized religion", and everything to do with the individual choices of each individual on this planet, officially chartered as a member of such an organization, or not. We all have our influence on the propagation of ideas and memes throughout time. Supporting the conclusion that an abstract "organization of religion" is controlling minds when nothing could be further than the truth seems to feed into the propagation of "organized religion". There is no organized religion, simply the individual thoughts and choices and actions of all sorts of human beings.

Quote:


12.  If you bothered to try to understand my argument you should have realised by this point that satan in this case is merely a hypothetical construct created by organised religion to suppress what we really believe inside. When someone tells you something you know is wrong, a part of you says “This person is wrong”. But if that part of you was very quiet and unexplored then maybe you wouldn’t know whether or not to listen to it. Maybe you’d be confused as to what to believe. And this is where organised religion says “That’s not actually what you feel, it is satan tempting you.” This accomplishes two things; the first is to help ignore that inner voice and listen to the man with the book and the second is to make people feel that it isn’t them that are feeling like this. It’s satan. And this helps people ignore that voice next time it comes up, and the next time....




This is no different and no more serious than any other way that one human being seeks to exert influence over any other human being. We love to define each other; it keeps us from having to face our own insecurity if we can define others through manipulation, instead of bettering ourselves.

The clearest reason why "religion" exists is for us to grow and develop past it. Taking personal power away from ourselves and placing it in the influence of a collective of others is our own folly. Everyone is on their own path, and will lead the life that they choose to lead. :yinyang:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What do Organised Religion and Mind Control have in common? [Re: stellar renegade]
    #7473578 - 10/01/07 11:31 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

How is it being victimized to trust something you don't have control over to a higher power who loves you?

Well for the good reason that there is no real evidence that there is a higher power that loves you.

If the alcoholic were to trust themselves with recovery, then they would be draining an empty well.

Believing in a higher power is trading one addiction for another. I know some people on this forum who were alcoholic and only recovered when they looked to themselves for "salvation". I have known several people in AA and have attended many meetings. They talk a good talk at the meeting and retell their tale of woe until they are completely identified with it and their weakness and then head for the sugar and coffee. The ones I have known who make it all the way out leave that 12 step thing behind once they realize they created their addiction and they (in much the same way) can end it.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinepalmersc
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Re: What do Organised Religion and Mind Control have in common? *DELETED* [Re: leery11]
    #7474803 - 10/01/07 05:40 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Post deleted by fireworks_god

Reason for deletion: Completely unacceptable behavior for this forum.



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OfflineLion
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Re: What do Organised Religion and Mind Control have in common? [Re: palmersc]
    #7474827 - 10/01/07 05:49 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Maybe soon he'll find God and be forgiven for his sins.  :downswords:

Everyone has his own path. 

"Enlightenment is none other than a pact with the devil."

Haha, okay.  Whatever that means. :rolleyes:


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What do Organised Religion and Mind Control have in common? [Re: palmersc]
    #7475218 - 10/01/07 07:40 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

This is what I found out firsthand as I chased enlightenment. Enlightenment is none other than a pact with the devil. It is selling out to freedom in this world. Selling your soul.

I must be enlightened then because this is a current picture of me.:satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinestellar renegade
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Re: What do Organised Religion and Mind Control have in common? [Re: Icelander]
    #7475661 - 10/01/07 09:50 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
How is it being victimized to trust something you don't have control over to a higher power who loves you?

Well for the good reason that there is no real evidence that there is a higher power that loves you.



Erm... you mean to say that no one can concieve of God themselves? Where on earth did we come up with the concept, then?

Quote:

Icelander said:
If the alcoholic were to trust themselves with recovery, then they would be draining an empty well.

Believing in a higher power is trading one addiction for another. I know some people on this forum who were alcoholic and only recovered when they looked to themselves for "salvation". I have known several people in AA and have attended many meetings. They talk a good talk at the meeting and retell their tale of woe until they are completely identified with it and their weakness and then head for the sugar and coffee. The ones I have known who make it all the way out leave that 12 step thing behind once they realize they created their addiction and they (in much the same way) can end it.



But the way that looking to a higher power works for many people is that it releases the stress of being self-conscious about the journey of letting go of their addiction. God-consciousness releases us from self-consciousness. Even the person who simply lets go and moves on with their life is working within this same type of consciousness. It's called by some 'humility' and 'perserverance'. The problem for most is that we're too danged self-conscious about anything and everything.

Anyway, even if there are people who are able to be released without the conception of a higher power, it does not negate the helpful experience of concieving of one.


--------------------
"I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou

"To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald


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