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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
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Loc: underbelly
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Here's what I think but the chances of this happening are about one in a million.
#7467054 - 09/29/07 11:31 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I don't really think that all this forward motion on the material level will ever bring humanity to where it claims it wants to go. (world peace, personal happiness etc.)
"I do not think any civilization can be called complete until it has progressed from sophistication to unsophistication, and made a conscious return to simplicity of thinking and living." -Lin Yutang, The Importance of Living, 1938
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Here's what I think but the chances of this happening are about one in a million. [Re: Icelander]
#7467068 - 09/29/07 11:34 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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It seems to me that the shift must be made from Conspicuous Consumption to Conscious Consumption. Once we both intellectually recognize AND emotionally apply the understanding that external things cannot make us happy, this shift will occur without effort. The effort, IMO, is needed in the emotional application arena.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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Re: Here's what I think but the chances of this happening are about one in a million. [Re: Veritas]
#7467116 - 09/29/07 11:55 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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my effort is not to take things so seriously, i really do care a lot, but i need to remember to breathe. so much of creation and art is from REVERSAL the old back and forth movement.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: Here's what I think but the chances of this happening are about one in a million. [Re: Veritas]
#7467149 - 09/29/07 12:08 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said: It seems to me that the shift must be made from Conspicuous Consumption to Conscious Consumption. Once we both intellectually recognize AND emotionally apply the understanding that external things cannot make us happy, this shift will occur without effort. The effort, IMO, is needed in the emotional application arena.
Like I said, one in a million.:(
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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ravin0ff
Stranger


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Re: Here's what I think but the chances of this happening are about one in a million. [Re: Icelander]
#7467234 - 09/29/07 12:40 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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why are you expecting world peace...
that's why i don't buy into all that 2012 bullshit.
they say we're about to enter into an age of perfection when you look around and it's THE EXACT OPPOSITE
if you plotted the last 100 years on a graph the line would be a gradual decline from 1900's until now and they are saying in 5 years we'll be at the very top of the graph... doesn't make ANY sense, changes are gradual.
i would be happy with people just treating eachother with a slight bit of respect. maybe the government steals from us just a little less. maybe one election that we can actually vote in, and the representative isn't bought out by big companies.
by hoping for such extremes, you only put yourself in an unresourceful state as you can see how terribly far off it is from your present condition and it seems hopeless "one in a million"
Edited by ravin0ff (09/29/07 12:41 PM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: Here's what I think but the chances of this happening are about one in a million. [Re: ravin0ff]
#7467281 - 09/29/07 12:56 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Dude, you must be new here.
Said nothing about perfection. You read a lot into my post that was not intended.;)
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (09/29/07 01:09 PM)
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Here's what I think but the chances of this happening are about one in a million. [Re: redgreenvines]
#7467296 - 09/29/07 01:04 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
the old back and forth movement.
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ravin0ff
Stranger


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Re: Here's what I think but the chances of this happening are about one in a million. [Re: Icelander]
#7467313 - 09/29/07 01:08 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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ok......
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sadspacemonkey
!universe!


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Re: Here's what I think but the chances of this happening are about one in a million. [Re: Veritas]
#7467364 - 09/29/07 01:25 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
Quote:
the old back and forth movement.
HAH!
Yesss...embrace the back and forth movements and get so much more pleasure out of life 
Pretty much just elaborating on that basic concept, but here's my 2 cents anyway:
Sometimes when I read about past civilizations I feel this ache... I can't help but think- we HAD it! We accepted ourselves, our spirituality was balanced and reflected nature, we could live together in a way that didn't force us to cope through ignorance and denial, etc etc. Then I'm tempted to think all these modern luxuries and progression has come at the price of our souls...
But then I can't make a villian out of technology, progression, material advances...isn't it amazing that we can see so clearly now how far our own potential reaches? Maybe the miracle of our mind is too good, too brilliant, so we got consumed by it and lost along the way...there's nothing wrong with it- when I think of the process as natural I can let go of a little of my sadness/frustration/anxiety..
Small cycles reflect large cycles- everything works by the same basic laws, no? Maybe we can view the cycle of human history as compared to the cycle of a single human life- during childhood we have that innocence coupled with honest wisdom..but then as we get older we want to experiment, rebel against our parents (god?) and ourselves- we want to be wild and flamboyant...but eventually, we mature, settle down, let go of some of that self-centered exuberance. Maybe humanity still needs to mature..right now we're going through that crazy puberty stage.
Or it can be compared to nature itself- there is a balance to everything. The more we pull in one direction the harder we fall in the other (for ex. - the more one tries to maintain absolute purity, the more one will deny the natural fact that we all contain evil and the more corrupt and dishonest one will become...) So by trusting the laws of nature, we can trust that mankind will cycle back...that is, if we don't all bomb ourselves to death first :P So I guess I think the chances of the cycle completing is definite if we can keep ourselves alive long enough as a species?
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"I can't be told by anyone how to live. If I said to the minister 'Move from your home' he would think I was mad." Bushman : Botswana
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Here's what I think but the chances of this happening are about one in a million. [Re: sadspacemonkey]
#7467439 - 09/29/07 01:57 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
I can't help but think- we HAD it! We accepted ourselves, our spirituality was balanced and reflected nature, we could live together in a way that didn't force us to cope through ignorance and denial, etc etc.
Maybe this is factual, and maybe we romanticize the "noble savage" too much. It's truly impossible for us to know what the day-to-day experience of living was like for humans before "civilization."
Does it matter? We can't really go back to whatever it was back then, because we have already bitten the apple, so to speak. We know what it is like to have everything automated, to utilize technology in nearly every aspect of our lives, and the generations which follow will be cognizant of THIS history.
What can we do NOW, with what we have, with who we are, to experience some of that acceptance and congruence we imagine our distant ancestors experienced?
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sadspacemonkey
!universe!


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Re: Here's what I think but the chances of this happening are about one in a million. [Re: Veritas]
#7467584 - 09/29/07 03:12 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
Quote:
I can't help but think- we HAD it! We accepted ourselves, our spirituality was balanced and reflected nature, we could live together in a way that didn't force us to cope through ignorance and denial, etc etc.
Maybe this is factual, and maybe we romanticize the "noble savage" too much. It's truly impossible for us to know what the day-to-day experience of living was like for humans before "civilization."
Does it matter? We can't really go back to whatever it was back then, because we have already bitten the apple, so to speak. We know what it is like to have everything automated, to utilize technology in nearly every aspect of our lives, and the generations which follow will be cognizant of THIS history.
What can we do NOW, with what we have, with who we are, to experience some of that acceptance and congruence we imagine our distant ancestors experienced?
Good points. I don't know if you really wanted me to tackle that question, but I will...sorry if I repeat stuff already covered on this forum as I'm kinda new/don't post often.
Just speaking as an American...people tend to blame the capitilistic society- while I am more sympathetic to a socialism I think any political system will fail as long as its citizens are unhealthy, ignorant, spoiled, and lazy. (As most of us are, including myself to a certain extent.)
In order to restore ourselves on the most basic level, it would make sense to go back to the basics: good, solid, nurturing family units, communities, and institutions.
A few potentional areas of change:
- The public education system. What we need isn't more computers but smaller class sizes and better pay for teachers in public schools- all that stuff politians promise but never really deliver in a satisfactory way. We need to evenly distribute resources among students of all ability levels from the top performers to those in special ed classes (who often have incredible untapped talent.) Also, higher education should be free for anyone who has the ability and will to go-- better financial aid not just for the dirt poor but for the middle classes too. That means not just increasing funds a little to schools but POURING it in (instead of to...erm...wars?) Also, give students a sense of responsibility (like the Japanese who clean their own classrooms- no janitors to do the dirty work.)
- The family unit. Being self-centered and materialistic does not lend itself to good parenting. For those of us who weren't lucky enough to have good role models growing up, there should be education across the board about how to be a good parent and a good wife or husband. Of course, this has its dangers- who determines what is "good" and why should they be granted that power? But it's better than nothing- or just learning useless facts in the classroom instead of how to live life and nuture life. Also, these lessons should be continually reinforced. (What use is teaching preschoolers to share if through the rest of their school experience those that are self-centered and shallow gain status?)
- The media- it obviously keeps us stupid and distracted, manipulates our insecurities, keeps us self centered and paranoid. I'm not sure if the answer is beyond having it either be a complete free-for-all with equal access and no censorship or have it be regulated by a completely different set of standards.
- Religion -- Jesus' message has been twisted enough, the promised land has turned into warzone, rockstar evangels make millions out of selling lies -- it's just so ugly. Solution? I don't know- burn every bible in existence? :P Make a new religion more fun and sexy than a Billy Graham/Jesus Christ/Christian rock band wet dream? Think of new lies to make people feel better? Or maybe raise stronger smarter people that don't need lies. (I'm not saying religion is based on lies, but rather it's twisted in a way that blinds people..) Give me some time to think about this one.
Also we need a totally re-vamped value system...such as...
Old values: -achievement (end product -- those that prosper are "good") -Physical perfection/spiritual purity -Puritan work ethic (thinking that working/struggling in itself is holy)
New values: -truth seeking (enjoyment of the process) -a more balanced acceptance of imperfections both inside and out -an appreciation of relaxation along with the rewards that come from hard work
That's a little vague maybe but just an example of how we can turn some old value systems around on their heads.
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"I can't be told by anyone how to live. If I said to the minister 'Move from your home' he would think I was mad." Bushman : Botswana
Edited by sadspacemonkey (09/29/07 03:16 PM)
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


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Re: Here's what I think but the chances of this happening are about one in a million. [Re: Icelander]
#7468248 - 09/29/07 08:10 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I don't really think that all this forward motion on the material level will ever bring humanity to where it claims it wants to go. (world peace, personal happiness etc.)
I have to ask. Why do you even care? Whatever humanity does will most likely not interfere with your goals and desires. As a matter of fact achieving that which makes you happy can be insanely easy. I am trying more and more to let "humanity" do it's own thing...while I do mine.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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wps
Well-PaidScientist


Registered: 09/22/07
Posts: 579
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Re: Here's what I think but the chances of this happening are about one in a million. [Re: Icelander]
#7468371 - 09/29/07 08:45 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: I don't really think that all this forward motion on the material level will ever bring humanity to where it claims it wants to go. (world peace, personal happiness etc.)
"I do not think any civilization can be called complete until it has progressed from sophistication to unsophistication, and made a conscious return to simplicity of thinking and living." -Lin Yutang, The Importance of Living, 1938
I can't agree with you here. Humanity needs and should desire to advance technologically in order to more fully explore and enjoy the universe.
there is much more to our existence than this planet, but in order to connect with these new environments we have to better our understanding of physics and invest this understanding into applied technology.
retreating back into our caves and simplifying our society would be like watching a movie to the halfway point and then rewinding it back to the beginning. Why go back where we have already been when we can go further into exciting, new, unexplored realms of existence?
not to mention medical technology, entertainment technology (I wouldn't want to live in a world without video games no matter how much inner peace I had, lol), and all the other intricate stuff that makes the quality of our life better. It seems to me as we figure out and take advantage of our environment more and more, the easier it is for the human race to live well and sustain itself in large numbers. Why would you want to retreat from that and give up the benefits of all these advancements?
as far as the argument that things were better or people were happier in the past civilizations, I don't think that can really be verified, its very subjective and a weak argument. Unless you lived in those times you have no place to say if they were somehow 'better' than ours or not. And what is better for you may not be better for the next man. Thats kind of a personal thing.
I think its a myth that at one time humanity was content and we've somehow fallen from that. I think its central to human nature to be unsatisfied with what one has and strive for something better. Dissatisfaction with the status quo is the major motivating factor in most achievements and accomplishments. I see human history as one long story of making lemonade from lemons. Life is hard, by its very nature, and the more we, as a species and as a society, get the hang of it, the easier it becomes. The more we understand, the more we are able to do.
the foundations of understanding provide solid footing for towers of knowledge that scrape the skies of the unknown. The amount of information we have is increasing exponentially with the passage of time! The complexity of society provides greater freedom of action.
complexity = More choices
I'm all for that.
-------------------- "America touts itself as the land of the free, but the number one freedom that you and I have is the freedom to enter into a subservient role in the workplace. Once you exercise this freedom you've lost all control over what you do, what is produced, and how it is produced. And in the end, the product doesn't belong to you. The only way you can avoid bosses and jobs is if you don't care about making a living. Which leads to the second freedom: the freedom to starve." - Tom Morello
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....



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Re: Here's what I think but the chances of this happening are about one in a million. [Re: wps]
#7468405 - 09/29/07 08:55 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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wps said: Why go back where we have already been when we can go further into exciting, new, unexplored realms of existence?
What new and unexplored realms of existence are you speaking of....?
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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wps
Well-PaidScientist


Registered: 09/22/07
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Re: Here's what I think but the chances of this happening are about one in a million. [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7468455 - 09/29/07 09:16 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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all kinds of stuff! I couldn't begin to list it all!
nuerochemistry, space exploration, energy generation, matter generation and teleportation, virtual realities, nanotechnology and its MANY potential applications, the advances of biology including cybernetics and genetic engineering...
the list goes on and on... advancements in any one of those fields could completely change our way of living for the better!
but the point is that human evolution and the advancement of civilization is a process that will never end and will become infinitely more complex with the passage of time. Which is good, because it keeps things interesting. The only constant is change! Hooray! We are progressing through a constantly shifting and changing matrix of possibilities, the potential combinations and permutations of which are endless! the more complex our reality becomes the more options we have to custom tailor our human experience to our personal tastes.
-------------------- "America touts itself as the land of the free, but the number one freedom that you and I have is the freedom to enter into a subservient role in the workplace. Once you exercise this freedom you've lost all control over what you do, what is produced, and how it is produced. And in the end, the product doesn't belong to you. The only way you can avoid bosses and jobs is if you don't care about making a living. Which leads to the second freedom: the freedom to starve." - Tom Morello
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....



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Re: Here's what I think but the chances of this happening are about one in a million. [Re: wps]
#7468527 - 09/29/07 09:38 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I agree, technology is neat and interesting - the stuff we are actually "allowed" to know about.... 
Maybe the "retreat to the cave" will be one of result, more than by choice.... Technology = Power.... Most humans don't seem to do very well with the management of power....
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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wps
Well-PaidScientist


Registered: 09/22/07
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Re: Here's what I think but the chances of this happening are about one in a million. [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7468539 - 09/29/07 09:43 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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i think thats really just a matter of getting the hang of it
I didn't do very well with managing to drive when I was young, but now I'm much better.
the human race is still learning to drive its universe. the more we practice, the more our skills develop, and the more we are able to go to new, unexplored places!
but neophobia and stubborn luddism will only lead us to the same dead ends.
-------------------- "America touts itself as the land of the free, but the number one freedom that you and I have is the freedom to enter into a subservient role in the workplace. Once you exercise this freedom you've lost all control over what you do, what is produced, and how it is produced. And in the end, the product doesn't belong to you. The only way you can avoid bosses and jobs is if you don't care about making a living. Which leads to the second freedom: the freedom to starve." - Tom Morello
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Here's what I think but the chances of this happening are about one in a million. [Re: wps]
#7468562 - 09/29/07 09:49 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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So once we've trashed THIS planet, we'll be free to zip off to new and yet-to-be-trashed planets? Sorry, this just doesn't make sense.
We have made so many mistakes in our husbandry of the Earth's resources, and now you say that the key to fixing the problems is to develop greater technology?? How about some wisdom? How about some common sense? How about some practicality?
As long as we continue to think that the solution is OUT THERE, we will destroy whatever natural environment we inhabit. Our thirst cannot be sated with strawberry taffy, no matter how much of it we chew.
Quote:
but the point is that human evolution and the advancement of civilization is a process that will never end and will become infinitely more complex with the passage of time.
Or until we become extinct.
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....



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Re: Here's what I think but the chances of this happening are about one in a million. [Re: wps]
#7468609 - 09/29/07 10:01 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
wps said: the human race is still learning to drive its universe.
This seems almost inherently perpetual.... Having a lot of experience driving does not mean that there is immunity to misjudgments and accidents....
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Here's what I think but the chances of this happening are about one in a million. [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7468620 - 09/29/07 10:07 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I'll be the hyper spatial donut dude 
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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