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OfflineAll We Perceive
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Determinism and Morality
    #7449777 - 09/24/07 10:44 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Greetings!

I have a few questions that have bothering me - hoping you guys can shed some light..

Note: These are intended to be secular questions. Thus, if anyone has a religious response please keep it in the realm of reason. Some sort of transcendental God/spirit does not really answer any questions for me.

1) I believe that determinism is 100% correct and have not seen nor thought of any proofs that show that libertarianism nor compatiblism are correct. This has been really bothering me the past few weeks. Now I could just shrug it off and say, "oh well!" but the problem still exists. Quite frankly acknowledging this fact seems to take a lot of enjoyment out of life and I am unsure what to do with it. It seems to be quite disturbing that we are conscious of our surroundings, yet bound by causality.

2) I am wondering what your particular reason is for acting within moral boundaries. I would agree with Hobbes in noting that people need a "society" to be able to trust each other. This seems to be the purpose of law. However, moral theory seems to intend to transcend law. Thus, I am looking for some sort of grounding for believing in any morality what-so-ever. I have examined Kant's, Mill's, and Aristotle's moral theories in class (I unfortunately have only read Mill's book "Utilitarianism") and they do not seem to answer this question in its totality.

Cheers.


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"plus they atually think jambands are good or sumthing, so they clearly know absolutely nothing about music, clearly lol" -Bassfreak

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OfflineFocusHawaii
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Re: Determinism and Morality [Re: All We Perceive]
    #7449988 - 09/24/07 11:38 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Every system of morality ultimately begins with one or more prefaces that the ethics of the system are derived from. Kant's notion of Duty, Mill's Utilitarianism, Socrates' duality etc. I've found problems with the promotion of one certain idea as the keystone of a morality and eventually a philosophy. Problems like: From what do we determine that keystone from? How do we know it's right? What about exigent circumstances?

At a fundamental level I think ethics and morality are illusory. They don't really exist outside of necessity so there is no tangible source for every starting point of each ethical philosophy. This isn't to say ethics aren't important, the benefits of ethical restraint is infinite.

The only place with any actual evidence, unless you believe in God handing down commandments or other anomalous sources of ethics, would be to consider evolution as the starting point of our ethical inhibitions. This ties in neatly with the idea of ethics being borne of necessity.

What I've expressed are pretty rudimentary, aside from the evolution part, concepts associated with existential philosophy. So if you find some traction with the ground I provided, I'd suggest picking up a book written by one of the famous existentialists: Sartre, my favorite, Kierkegaard, Nietzsche (well, existentialism was an adjunct to his nihilism but he started it down the right path). Or, if you hated my ideas then read some of them anyways. I read an entire book on spiritualism even though the ideas presented bothers me profoundly.

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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Determinism and Morality [Re: FocusHawaii]
    #7451279 - 09/25/07 10:43 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

1) I don't believe that determinism is correct, but take the libertarian position that many things are determined but that agency is possible.

2)I would recommend NOT believing in morality, personally. :wink: But I have to get to school now, so I'll delve into this one on my return. I'm more of an egoist... check out Max Stirner in the meantime.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Determinism and Morality [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7451557 - 09/25/07 11:53 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

I like.:thumbup: And I like Max.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Determinism and Morality [Re: All We Perceive]
    #7452299 - 09/25/07 03:34 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

I do not ground my own morality in Utilitarianism but in Compassion which I deem Transcendental in nature. In the dispassionate Agape of the New Testament, the metaphysic of Deity is expressed in 1 John 4:8 as "God is love." I also find Buddhist Karuna, Compassion, which is wed to Wisdom [Prajna] to be phenomenologically identical to Agape, but perhaps more systematically elaborated in the ethical system of the Eightfold Path.

The deterministic nature of Karma ("as you sow so shall you reap") can be broken through the moment-to-moment dis-identification with our phenomenal selves and the identification with our noumenal Self (to use Kantian categories) - the Indian metaphor of 'the eye which sees but which cannot be seen.' Free-will is the free-involvement within the phenomenal world without creating karmic (deterministic) bondage because acting from Compassion is acting from a non-dualistic position, a non cause-effect position.

The phenomenal self incurs deterministic debts, the noumenal Self is formless and free, so it becomes a matter of existential versus ontological identity. Buddha's nirvanic nature is free and untouched, but Buddha's samsaric nature must necessarily have incurred a karmic debt. How many mushrooms must Siddhartha Gautama have tread upon (hypothetically) for him to have been 'accidentally' poisoned to death by mushrooms? Is this not the result of Karma? If this is the case, both determinism and free-will must operate simultaneously. As BE HERE NOW says:

"You are a totally determined being. The very moment you will wake up is totally determined, what you will hear of what I say is totally determined. There are no accidents in this business at all. Accidents are just from where you're looking. To the ego, it looks like it's miracles and accidents. No miricles. No accidents."

However...

"This whole trip I'm talking about is fraught with paradox."

So it may appear that you are back where you started with your original qustion, but you have not turned 360 degrees - you have spiralled closer to Center!

Peace.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Determinism and Morality [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7452470 - 09/25/07 04:26 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

to reinforce what focushawaii was saying:

trichinosis and religious abstinence from pork.

How does abstaining from eating pork have anything to do with morality and ethics? well it has evolved to that point where even though the cause, as well as the root of the misconception, have been found and corrected, it has taken on aspects of spiritual devotion and morality.
It would be immoral to serve a devout jew a pork laden meal (a muslim as well), even if you yourself are not jewish.

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Offlinebackfromthedead
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Re: Determinism and Morality [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #7452791 - 09/25/07 05:58 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

"You are a totally determined being. The very moment you will wake up is totally determined, what you will hear of what I say is totally determined. There are no accidents in this business at all. Accidents are just from where you're looking. To the ego, it looks like it's miracles and accidents. No miricles. No accidents.

However...

"This whole trip I'm talking about is fraught with paradox."

So it may appear that you are back where you started with your original qustion, but you have not turned 360 degrees - you have spiralled closer to Center!"

Dang.:thumbup:

Business??  Hate that.:uptosomething:


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Determinism and Morality [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #7453564 - 09/25/07 09:36 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Abstinence from pork has nothing to do with trichinosis. It belongs to similar prohibitions about eating rodents, which again has little to do with disease factors despite modernist compulsions about 'my son the Jewish doctor.' Animals were sacred to various deities on the one hand, and sacrificed to those deities before consumption, and on the other hand there are the projective notions about animal behavior and the magickal 'you are what you eat' notion that played into ancient mentality. Modernist interpretations of ancient mentalities are arrogant and incorrect. Many of these ancient thought-forms are what traditions are formed out of. Personally, I agree with New Testament radical revisions on the whole, and Buddhist 'ahimsa' toward animal life in general is superior to Judeao-Christian treatment of animals. Compassion rules - tradition
be damned.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Determinism and Morality [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7453654 - 09/25/07 10:07 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

so, you are saying that this is the cause for every single religion that abstains from pork?
and are you saying that it is outside the realm of possibilities that trichinosis is a contributing factor in the "bad ju-ju" of pork?

and, correct me if I am wrong, but how is the sacrificing of animals to plural deities affecting the progression of pork aversion from monotheistic religions?

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Determinism and Morality [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #7455559 - 09/26/07 12:14 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

"...the "bad ju-ju" of pork?"
:lol:
Either it's considered 'too ugly' or 'too precious' :shrug:
I think it's yummy.


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Determinism and Morality [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #7456037 - 09/26/07 03:00 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

What exactly is your thing with pork anyway?
I was discussing some of the Lubavitcher Jewish take from discussions I've had with Hasidim, but I'm really not into indulging whatever your pork fetish is about, thankyouverymuch.

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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Determinism and Morality [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7456077 - 09/26/07 03:12 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

well, you wanted to discredit my point..... and I gave a rebuttal... simple as that.
There is no pork fetish here.... it just makes sense.

of every polytheistic system there has always been a deity of fish and water/sea.... I could be wrong, but I doubt there is any religious belief that makes people abstain from eating fish.
If you want to further discuss your position that refraining from pork stems from it being "God X's pet/protector", then wouldnt everything fall under that category?
Isnt that the outline for polytheism? that some oligarchy of gods micro-manage their respective sectors of the world? thus making everything fall into some "ownership" of some god?

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OfflineLion
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Re: Determinism and Morality [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #7456083 - 09/26/07 03:15 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

There are many forms of polytheism.  And likely, since it is a type of religion, all forms of it are marked by inconsistency and absurdity in some form or other. :shrug:


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Determinism and Morality [Re: Lion]
    #7456128 - 09/26/07 03:27 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

well, I find it absurd to act like, in a time where the northern lights, meteors and earthquakes were thought to be a gods wrath/delight, large numbers of people getting sick was rationalized away without any thought that it angered the gods in some way.

Maybe trichinosis wasnt the sole reason, but I think it is obvious that it played a major role in people abstaining from pork.

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