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stellar renegade
explorer ofmetaphysicaldepths



Registered: 09/19/07
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On the Existence of the Supernatural
#7454391 - 09/26/07 02:42 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Naturalism denies the existence of the supernatural. But upon what basis?
It is the very nature of the supernatural that it is not subject to nature (or else it would be called "subnatural") and thus cannot be "tested". But the denial of its existence can be shown to be fallacious.
The foundation for this philosophy seems to be that all that exists is that which is detectable by the five senses. But such a view seems to be archaic, as we now know that there are all kinds of things that we cannot detect. There are different types of radiation that are indetectable, there is a such thing as invisible energy and we can only percieve both sound and light waves on a certain spectrum, and this spectrum variates slightly for different people (some can hear a little lower than others, some can hear higher pitches, including dogs for instance).
Sure, some of these things we can detect with various instruments, but even these instruments must be upgraded continually to percieve more and more. We have found amazing things both above our heads and below our noses, worlds within worlds all variating from each other in amazing ways. Why should it surprise us that most of what exists cannot be detected, or that there are invisible worlds or spirits that exist even right around us? This is an idea that string theorists have latched onto.
Some have been able to detect higher degrees of energy, not only psychics but those with technical instruments, in places where ghosts are found. Some have claimed to have been healed of various diseases or from having uneven legs, etc. There have been reports of people traveling through time, or of meeting supernatural beings. And none of these should be considered inherently ridiculous, as there are too many layers to the world we live in and it would be arrogant to say that only what we can percieve exists.
Granted, they should be approached scientifically with a sceptical outlook, but there is no basis to deny them outright besides that silly modernistic outlook we adopted when we started to get so smart. Do I deny that there have been all kinds of frauds? Not in the least. But to say that there couldn't have possibly been any real supernatural experiences is something different entirely. The moment you've opened yourself to the realization that there is such a thing as invisible energy that has provided the basis for forming this world, you've already been to first base. If we think that we know everything that goes on in the world around us when we can only even, for instance, see a tiny section of the entire electromagnetic spectrum, we've already fooled ourselves.
But we don't even have to go this far. Think about it this way. Everything you percieve is filtered by your brain. Science confirms that we don't even see objects, we just see the light bouncing off of them. That light comes through our eyes which recieves it and sends messages to the brain, which interprets the data for us to percieve. So, you're not seeing externals directly, you're looking inside of your brain. And take this further. Everything we have percieved from day one, from the beginning of the history of man, has been filtered through this brain. Everything we've ever seen, ever smelled, touched, heard or tasted has been a chemical inside of the brain. All of our knowledge has originated from these perceptions that have occurred inside of the brain.
Now take it just one step further. How did we know about our brain? By percieving it through our five senses! So... even our knowledge of the brain has come about through perceptions occurring within the brain... wait. Isn't this circular? Are these perceptions merely self-originating? Or where do they come from? Perhaps there's something greater than just what we can see and hear and feel and touch, something on the outside of our senses making perception possible. Another realm we cannot immediately percieve, maybe?
Anyway, we have to at least see that it is open to interpretation. We cannot know for sure anymore. This objectifying of knowledge is merely the arrogance of human illusion. We fortify our own knowledge and call it 'objective' and 'just the facts'. But what do we know? All of our knowledge is merely a subjective interpretation, or expression, of our perceptions. Unless you want to take the naturalistic philosophy and believe that our own perceptions are all that exist (even though any perception must use an outside source for its verification), and that's fine, you can. That's just the beauty of it. You can try to believe all you want that the reality you sense is self-established, but it's still an interpretation. A philosophy. And that's all it'll ever really be.
As for me, I will believe that there is something more.
-------------------- "I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou
 "To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea


Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
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Quote:
Granted, they should be approached scientifically with a sceptical outlook, but there is no basis to deny them outright

Theres a stigma attatched to it. The majority of people laugh off 'supernatural' happenings. Scientists rely on credability, how would they be credible if they delved into subjects that are supposedly laughable?
Theres also the fact that much of the phenomena cannot be put through a rigorous test, which science also relies on. How can you capture a ghost, a ufo or a spontanious telepathic experience and quantify it?!
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stellar renegade
explorer ofmetaphysicaldepths



Registered: 09/19/07
Posts: 201
Loc: carrollton, tx
Last seen: 13 years, 10 months
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Re: On the Existence of the Supernatural [Re: Ego Death]
#7455674 - 09/26/07 12:58 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Well, I'll admit it's difficult due to the elusive nature of the experiences (hah the word 'elusive' was being elusive for a minute I need to remember that one from now on ) and the difficulty is strengthened by the rarity of such experiences, but I do think that even if you can't test them (unless maybe under very strict or specific circumstances, I think), they can at least be verified.
But this topic is more or less about revealing the possibility of the existence of the supernatural. Naturalism rejects the possibility from the outset, which is illogical.
-------------------- "I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou
 "To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....



Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,908
Loc: My Youniverse....
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
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I have exercised and practiced my mental abilities in a way that I can manipulate/change (on command) a few different metals into different 3 dimensional shapes by merely thinking/visualizing about it in my mind (I also have to let my index finger touch the chunk of metal for it to work).... I have been trying to figure out other "conductive matter" to this ability (so I don't have to directly touch the metal), but have not been able to.... But, I am never going to show anyone, you just have to believe me, and trust me on this one.... . A stranger.... . . On the internet....  . . ****************************************************************
I have written this before.... Curiosity drives us, people are just curious to find the truth, or to find a brand new truth.... Just because they say it, doesn't mean that people are all honest about the "abilities" that they say that they have.... I think THAT is why some people are so "forceful" with their skeptic POV.... 
There certainly are some very strange things that happen in life sometimes....! 
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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stellar renegade
explorer ofmetaphysicaldepths



Registered: 09/19/07
Posts: 201
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Last seen: 13 years, 10 months
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Re: On the Existence of the Supernatural [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7458708 - 09/27/07 02:35 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Nah, I believe ya. I've met someone else who claimed the same, not to mention the fact that I'd heard about it before.
I guess I'm more into the biological aspect of things... I've grasped someone's heart from a distance, and it was nothing like I was expecting. It was like this, well, muscle that was not only pumping but undulating intensely with such life that I had never felt before. I really felt like it was perfectly fit to run our innermost being. It felt almost as if it had its own life, as if even though it wasn't sentient it was close to almost having a personality. I'm not sure how to explain it. All I know is that later I watched some doctors on TV explain how the heart doesn't just pump, but it moves dynamically, and I was like, "YES! Exactly."
Anyway, I find it funny how no skeptics have replied in here, even though this thread has had a great many views...
-------------------- "I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou
 "To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald
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AlteredAgain
Visual Alchemist



Registered: 04/27/06
Posts: 11,181
Loc: Solar Circuit
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well, one reason i could see for naturalists to reject the supernatural is that the super-natural is really not super at all. it is only a natural phenomenon that appears to us as extraordinary due to our limited knowledge about its very nature.
or is there another possible reason i am not aware of..
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stellar renegade
explorer ofmetaphysicaldepths



Registered: 09/19/07
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Re: On the Existence of the Supernatural [Re: AlteredAgain]
#7458753 - 09/27/07 03:41 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I'd say it's supernatural because it's beyond our current control. To be supernatural is to be above nature, as I have said here and elsewhere. But you're right; it's all matter and energy, it's just that many (in fact, most) aspects of the universe are beyond our immediate control and ability to understand.
-------------------- "I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou
 "To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea


Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
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Quote:
they can at least be verified
What do you mean?
Loads of people verify these phenomena every year and have done ever since we could write down and record our experiences. Still this verification only exists for the individual and some close friends/relatives. I've experienced with my close friends that only a few will be accepting enough to believe me. Theres never any doubt of truth because I'm an honest person but some people will simply refuse to believe on the basis that they don't want to believe! Sometimes when I provide logical replies to their arguements they just get angry and storm off! But I stand by my viewpoint because I'm not going to lie about what I've experienced just so it fits into the common reality model.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Anyway, I find it funny how no skeptics have replied in here, even though this thread has had a great many views...
That's because we get bored.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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stellar renegade
explorer ofmetaphysicaldepths



Registered: 09/19/07
Posts: 201
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Last seen: 13 years, 10 months
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Re: On the Existence of the Supernatural [Re: Icelander]
#7460109 - 09/27/07 12:17 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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lol Icelander. 
Ego Death, I know exactly what you mean. And all I'm saying is that they can be verified to an honest, unbiased person.
-------------------- "I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou
 "To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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And all I'm saying is that they can be verified to an honest, unbiased person.
Prove it.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....



Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,908
Loc: My Youniverse....
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
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Quote:
stellar renegade said: Nah, I believe ya. I've met someone else who claimed the same, not to mention the fact that I'd heard about it before.
Well, I was giving an example of what people could say, and then they can't and won't substantiate nor prove their claim(s).... It is bullshit....
If I had such powers, I sure the fuck wouldn't tell anyone....!?  I would never have to "prove" anything to anyone, because I wouldn't make the claim.... 
Quote:
stellar renegade said: Anyway, I find it funny how no skeptics have replied in here, even though this thread has had a great many views...
Hello.....!? 
It is healthy to be skeptic, unless you want to buy something from me because of my super powers....? 
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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FocusHawaii
Keeper of theMagic Garden

Registered: 12/27/02
Posts: 1,013
Loc: Canada
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Re: On the Existence of the Supernatural [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7461267 - 09/27/07 05:36 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Granted, they should be approached scientifically with a sceptical outlook, but there is no basis to deny them outright
I agree, this is the correct way to approach a phenomena.
besides that silly modernistic outlook we adopted when we started to get so smart
This isn't why science deny the supernatural. There is a mountain of verified evidence against things like time-travel, while the evidence for time-travel is minute and usually unfalsifiable.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: On the Existence of the Supernatural [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7461507 - 09/27/07 06:32 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
PhanTomCat said:
Quote:
stellar renegade said: Nah, I believe ya. I've met someone else who claimed the same, not to mention the fact that I'd heard about it before.
Well, I was giving an example of what people could say, and then they can't and won't substantiate nor prove their claim(s).... It is bullshit....
If I had such powers, I sure the fuck wouldn't tell anyone....!?  I would never have to "prove" anything to anyone, because I wouldn't make the claim.... 
Quote:
stellar renegade said: Anyway, I find it funny how no skeptics have replied in here, even though this thread has had a great many views...
Hello.....!? 
It is healthy to be skeptic, unless you want to buy something from me because of my super powers....? 
>^;;^<

-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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stellar renegade
explorer ofmetaphysicaldepths



Registered: 09/19/07
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Re: On the Existence of the Supernatural [Re: Icelander]
#7462049 - 09/27/07 08:48 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: Prove it.
Okay, show me an honest, unbiased person.
Quote:
FocusHawaii said: This isn't why science deny the supernatural. There is a mountain of verified evidence against things like time-travel, while the evidence for time-travel is minute and usually unfalsifiable.
Because it's a field that hasn't been widely traversed?
Quote:
PhanTom Cat said: Well, I was giving an example of what people could say, and then they can't and won't substantiate nor prove their claim(s).... It is bullshit....
Well, 
-------------------- "I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou
 "To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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A clear understanding of physics makes the impossibilty of time travel readily apparent.
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stellar renegade
explorer ofmetaphysicaldepths



Registered: 09/19/07
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Last seen: 13 years, 10 months
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Feel free to enlighten me!
-------------------- "I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou
 "To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Let me get this straight:
You want me to condense college-level physics into a paragraph?
or
You want me to teach a college-level phsyics course on this forum?
And who said Generation X was lazy and wanted everything handed to them on a platter?
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a_guy_named_ai
Stranger

Registered: 09/24/07
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When talking about natural things, things we can see, we compare natural with natural. But things we cannot see, supernatural or spiritual, we compare spiritual to spiritual.
What does Spiritual mean? It is a realm of Spirit. It is eternal, that which exists outside of the realm of the natural, it does not follow the laws of the natural world. What we can see with our eyes, that is temporary, it will pass away. It has not always been, and will not always be. Natural things could potentially exist forever, but they have not been forever.
The Spirit was not born of the earth, but the earth born of the Spirit. All things are from the Spirit, and through the Spirit and unto the Spirit.
To understand heavenly things, first you must understand earthly things. All things were created in the Spirit of love, and through divine inspiration. All nature is full of allegories of those heavenly things, and likenesses.
Spirit is love, and nothing is greater than Love. To understand the Spirit, you must recognize the way of love, and the way of righteousness and wisdom which abides in love.
Only Spirit can receive spiritual understanding.
All of those things which are natural cannot receive supernatural understanding.
The cells in our brain cannot feel love. The cells in our brain are natural. Our cells have no consciousness. A collection of cells cannot feel consciousness or love. If a chemical in our brain works as a tool tol to feel the effects of the natural world, it only does so to transnmit the effects to an comprehension outside of the body. Just as a hammer cannot feel, but the hand holding the hammer feels the vibration of the pounding metal through his arm. If one cell cannot feel, many cells cannot feel. Am I a cell? Is my consciousness held within the network and interchange of chemical and electronic pulses? Even if my brain can receive these messages What part of me can comprehend them in a singular manifestation of personal sentient consciousness, My sentient essence? All I know about this world tells me that this cannot be from the natural. Just as the flower withers away, it's beauty and natural substance, it's information, decaying yet just as dead as it once once.
Edited by jonathan_206 (09/28/07 09:44 AM)
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stellar renegade
explorer ofmetaphysicaldepths



Registered: 09/19/07
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Re: On the Existence of the Supernatural [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
#7463190 - 09/28/07 06:06 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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OrgoneConclusion, sure. Well seriously, I was thinking you could provide a simple explanation like, "The particles that make up who you are in this moment made up other things in centuries past, and those particles can't be in both the soil in a garden patch or somewhere up in the atmosphere and inside of you, so it would be impossible for you to go back, and if you did, you would be scattered throughout nature." To which I would reply, "But there is no evidence that we would use the same particles as we do now when travelling back in time, or that the particles in one moment are the same as those in the next."
But really, time travel is considered less 'supernatural' and so we needn't really go there if we don't want to.
jonathan - I believe that, since everything was created from a Spirit of love, our cells can experience love, but only as a spirit can we reciprocate and understand that love on the same basis that it is given (in proportion to the capacity of our own spirit).
Haha, you remind me of myself in the past. I used to speak in stream of consciousness on another message board I'm fond of until everybody ostracized and ridiculed me to no end for it. They also freaked out and (among other reasons) came after me with their torches and pitchforks. Of course I was talking about quite the controversial subject, along with experiences I had had which seemed to enrage people greatly. Oh well.
-------------------- "I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou
 "To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald
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