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InvisibleVeritas
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I would love to have gone to school at Hogwarts
    #7453773 - 09/25/07 10:39 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Since childhood, I have adored stories about magic, ESP, levitation, aliens, telekinesis, ghosts, and so on. My first crush was on Peter Pan, and I dreamed of being sprinkled with "fairy dust" so that I, too, could fly off to Neverland.

I was also brought up and educated to be a critical thinker, a detective, and a scientist. I applied these skills to my deep longing for magic to be real, and searched high and low for solid evidence that it was. My disillusionment when there WAS no evidence to be found was intense.

So I wonder...if someone who wished for, longed for, dreamed of these things being real, who applied serious research and discernment to the quest of proving that they were, has found no solid evidence to date...how likely is it that any of these things exist? If the many other researchers whose work I've examined have found nothing, isn't the more likely explanation that it is all wishful thinking?

I've heard it said on these forums "you will see when you believe," yet I believed and deeply longed to see for decades. Despite my affection and hope for the magical and unexplained to be real, my examination of the evidence could not be denied.

Why should I, or anyone who has had the same results, believe that there is more to this life than what we can experience with our senses?


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: I would love to have gone to school at Hogwarts [Re: Veritas]
    #7453910 - 09/25/07 11:16 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

You have such a low vibrational level. Even your aura is a smog-yellow. Rediscover your root (chakra).

Perhaps a Swami blessing is in order. :yesnod:


--------------------


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InvisibleCracka_X
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Re: I would love to have gone to school at Hogwarts [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7454162 - 09/26/07 12:44 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

hahahahaha the parody of philosophy and spirituality.


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: I would love to have gone to school at Hogwarts [Re: Veritas]
    #7454217 - 09/26/07 01:07 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

That's a pretty familiar story, Veritas... so very familiar.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: I would love to have gone to school at Hogwarts [Re: Cracka_X]
    #7454222 - 09/26/07 01:09 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

but it is real
it was real
go back to the other side
and see if it is not the case.
get stacked, stoned, dreamed or charmed,
and Hogwarts is home again.
same as it ever was.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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Offlinestellar renegade
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Re: I would love to have gone to school at Hogwarts [Re: redgreenvines]
    #7454289 - 09/26/07 01:39 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Because perhaps whatever experiments were being undertaken were not performed under the appropriate conditions.

Have you ever thought that maybe the magic of life can't come when forced? That we can rape the meaning of life and leave nihilism in our wake?

Honestly, I see your argument and I understand the feeling, but it is still not valid disproof. To me, it's like saying, "I set out mouse traps everywhere in my house because somebody said they thought there were mice there... but I never caught any. Mice must not exist."

Perhaps a better argument would be how it could not be possible for such things to exist, rather than that you've never seen them or haven't known anybody who has.

But even then you'd have trouble, as the good majority of things that exist are indiscernible to our five senses. Even science teaches us this.


--------------------
"I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou

"To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: I would love to have gone to school at Hogwarts [Re: Veritas]
    #7454441 - 09/26/07 04:55 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Why should I, or anyone who has had the same results, believe that there is more to this life than what we can experience with our senses?




You must consider, however, that there is more to our senses than you can currently fathom. Is it possible that "what" you perceive is governed by how you were taught to perceive it?


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: I would love to have gone to school at Hogwarts [Re: stellar renegade]
    #7454512 - 09/26/07 05:52 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Because perhaps whatever experiments were being undertaken were not performed under the appropriate conditions.

Have you ever thought that maybe the magic of life can't come when forced? That we can rape the meaning of life and leave nihilism in our wake?




How is approaching life as though it is full of magic forcing it to happen?  :confused:  My approach for many years was based on the belief that the paranormal WAS real, yet none of my experiences confirmed this belief.  Many of those who have undertaken scientific research into the paranormal WANT to believe, WANT to find evidence, yet they do not. 

Sorry, but this just sounds like another excuse. :shrug:  If paranormal phenomenon are actually part of the natural world. then they would not shrink away from scrutiny.  This simply does not make sense.  Even if we go with the "s-rays" theory, why would the phenomenon also shrink away from believers who genuinely want to experience such things?

Yes, there are things which we cannot perceive with our senses, and we have discovered them by developing technology to explain the evidence which suggested their existence. What I am asking about is why I should believe in phenomenon for which there IS no credible evidence?


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: I would love to have gone to school at Hogwarts [Re: redgreenvines]
    #7454518 - 09/26/07 05:54 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
but it  is real
it was real
go back to the other side
and see if it is not the case.
get stacked, stoned, dreamed or charmed,
and Hogwarts is home again.
same as it ever was.




Oh, I do, I do, yet I recognize the difference between these experiences and "straight" reality. :shrug:  It seems to be for entertainment purposes only, as they say on the lottery tickets.


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

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Re: I would love to have gone to school at Hogwarts [Re: Veritas]
    #7454611 - 09/26/07 06:47 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

"In order to see the invisible, first open thine eyes WIDE upon the visible."

Schools like Hogwarts are REAL!

Everything is magic, every little thing...


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Invisibledorkus
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Re: I would love to have gone to school at Hogwarts [Re: Veritas]
    #7455039 - 09/26/07 09:23 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Have you never experienced telepathy or dwelled in the same thoughtflow as someone else?

Can you feel other people's moods? I have felt this many times. It is very real.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: I would love to have gone to school at Hogwarts [Re: dorkus]
    #7455128 - 09/26/07 10:13 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

dorkus said:
Can you feel other people's moods? I have felt this many times. It is very real.




Of course it is, and there is nothing inexplicable about it. :shrug:

Human beings have been interacting together for thousands of years together, and other human beings are very similar to ourself. It comes quite naturally that we can perceive the emotional states of others. :smile:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: I would love to have gone to school at Hogwarts [Re: Veritas]
    #7455196 - 09/26/07 10:35 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

"you will see when you believe,"

Don't believe people who are trying to convince themselves of something by convincing you.:monkeydance:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: I would love to have gone to school at Hogwarts [Re: Middleman]
    #7455201 - 09/26/07 10:36 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Middleman said:
"In order to see the invisible, first open thine eyes WIDE upon the visible."

Schools like Hogwarts are REAL!

Everything is magic, every little thing...




Are you old enough to be posting here?:lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibledorkus
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Re: I would love to have gone to school at Hogwarts [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7455222 - 09/26/07 10:40 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Maybe that is all. I suspect there is more to it. The fairy dust most certainly exists. *sprinkles*


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: I would love to have gone to school at Hogwarts [Re: dorkus]
    #7455259 - 09/26/07 10:50 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Please don't think I was reducing the value or the mystery in it... Life is the most mysterious thing of them all! :smile:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: I would love to have gone to school at Hogwarts [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7455269 - 09/26/07 10:52 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Indeed. Life is total mystery why downgrade it with fantasy? I'll answer that. Because some of the real mystery is not to our liking.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlineshakercee
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Re: I would love to have gone to school at Hogwarts [Re: Icelander]
    #7455286 - 09/26/07 10:58 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Because some of the real mystery is not to our liking.




Like death..:crazy2:


--------------------
Pray, v.: To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy - Ambrose Bierce

Medical science has confirmed what the male world has known intuitively for millenia: that scratching your ass is a great aid to complex thinking.

Its God's responsibility to forgive the terrorist organizations such as Jaish, Lashkar etc.
Its our responsibility to arrange the meeting between them and god."
- Indian Armed Forces

"Hey Monkey!! Get Funky" - Tarzan and Jane


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OfflineEl Zorro
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Re: I would love to have gone to school at Hogwarts [Re: shakercee]
    #7455329 - 09/26/07 11:12 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Instead of looking for the magic (you've never seen it so you don't even know what you're looking for) try looking at everything. Perceive everything with open eyes and an open mind. It just might turn out that you will find the magic where you never thought possible.


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Invisibledorkus
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Re: I would love to have gone to school at Hogwarts [Re: Icelander]
    #7455345 - 09/26/07 11:15 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Can you honestly say you have no experience with telepathy? :smile: You've even made posts about communicating with a friend on "the inner plane". I remember clearly that you said it happened during a mushroom trip, and that he confirmed it to you by saying something a few days later.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: I would love to have gone to school at Hogwarts [Re: dorkus]
    #7455488 - 09/26/07 11:56 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

dorkus said:
Can you honestly say you have no experience with telepathy? :smile: You've even made posts about communicating with a friend on "the inner plane". I remember clearly that you said it happened during a mushroom trip, and that he confirmed it to you by saying something a few days later.




Are you referring to this post?

To answer the same question you directed to me: No, I have not had any experiences with telepathy that could not be adequately explained by empathy and context.  :shrug:  I have had very intense empathic experiences, where I could almost voice the other persons' thoughts, but the content was emotional in nature, and not mental.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: I would love to have gone to school at Hogwarts [Re: dorkus]
    #7455504 - 09/26/07 12:01 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

dorkus said:
Maybe that is all. I suspect there is more to it. The fairy dust most certainly exists. *sprinkles*




After a friend brought me a Peter Pan hat from Disneyland, I was certain that the white paste which held the decal on was composed of fairy dust.  I would faithfully sprinkle it on my head, think happy thoughts, and leap off the top of my 6-drawer dresser.  :lol:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: I would love to have gone to school at Hogwarts [Re: Veritas]
    #7455527 - 09/26/07 12:07 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Always wondered about your almost imperceptible limp. Now I know.


--------------------


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: I would love to have gone to school at Hogwarts [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7455530 - 09/26/07 12:08 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

You heard my limp on the phone?  Or did you mean to type "lisp"?  :lol:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: I would love to have gone to school at Hogwarts [Re: Veritas]
    #7455539 - 09/26/07 12:10 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Yeah, when you walk you sort of go 'kee-klop, kee-klop'.


--------------------


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: I would love to have gone to school at Hogwarts [Re: shakercee]
    #7455541 - 09/26/07 12:10 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

shakercee said:
Quote:

Because some of the real mystery is not to our liking.




Like death..:crazy2:




Yes


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlineshakercee
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Re: I would love to have gone to school at Hogwarts [Re: Veritas]
    #7455548 - 09/26/07 12:13 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I am still mesmerized and amazed by water..it is so sexy. :lol:

Just the basic things have such wonder and mystery in them, if we just have few moments to meditate on them.


--------------------
Pray, v.: To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy - Ambrose Bierce

Medical science has confirmed what the male world has known intuitively for millenia: that scratching your ass is a great aid to complex thinking.

Its God's responsibility to forgive the terrorist organizations such as Jaish, Lashkar etc.
Its our responsibility to arrange the meeting between them and god."
- Indian Armed Forces

"Hey Monkey!! Get Funky" - Tarzan and Jane


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: I would love to have gone to school at Hogwarts [Re: dorkus]
    #7455549 - 09/26/07 12:13 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

dorkus said:
Can you honestly say you have no experience with telepathy? :smile: You've even made posts about communicating with a friend on "the inner plane". I remember clearly that you said it happened during a mushroom trip, and that he confirmed it to you by saying something a few days later.




I have no idea what you are talking about. As far as I know telepathy doesn't exist.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: I would love to have gone to school at Hogwarts [Re: shakercee]
    #7455575 - 09/26/07 12:20 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

shakercee said:
I am still mesmerized and amazed by water..it is so sexy. :lol:

Just the basic things have such wonder and mystery in them, if we just have few moments to meditate on them.




Yes!  I agree, and have found much enjoyment in the mysteries and beauty that CAN be experienced with my senses.  While it was disappointing to realize that flying will probably always be confined to my dreams, and that magical spells don't work outside of the movies, the natural world is simply amazing.  :loveeyes:


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: I would love to have gone to school at Hogwarts [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7455577 - 09/26/07 12:21 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Yeah, when you walk you sort of go 'kee-klop, kee-klop'.




I do tend to pace when I'm on the phone.  :lol:  That sound is actually from my cloven hooves, though.  :satan:


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: I would love to have gone to school at Hogwarts [Re: Icelander]
    #7455603 - 09/26/07 12:28 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Magic is part of the inner world and needs to be recognized as such. It isn't an objective, tangible thing that happens in the physical world - it is part of the unconcious mind and is metaphorical. It can be shared when people share symbols and stories, but that doesn't mean that levitation is an objective reality or that people can fly like Peter Pan. It means that these concepts are symbolic of a psychological process, or perhaps are archetypal. This doesn't diminish the value of it at all, it just means it's not to be taken literally. Kind of like the bible.


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Offlinestellar renegade
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Re: I would love to have gone to school at Hogwarts [Re: Veritas]
    #7455813 - 09/26/07 01:41 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
How is approaching life as though it is full of magic forcing it to happen?  :confused:  My approach for many years was based on the belief that the paranormal WAS real, yet none of my experiences confirmed this belief.  Many of those who have undertaken scientific research into the paranormal WANT to believe, WANT to find evidence, yet they do not.



I guess I was referring to the skeptical outlook employed in trying to find it.  I don't mean 'skeptical' as in 'rational thought' but as in, being too quick to assume.  I apologize, as that's the best way I can describe it on such quick notice.  And I don't know how you went about it, to be honest, but I do know that you said you were trying to investigate.  And I've found that such investigation often does not work, because you are looking for something either elusive or not clearly defined.  Such things are even hard to talk about in a conversation like this.  How does one delineate the distinction between 'natural' and 'supernatural'?  Once it comes down into our realm of perception, it becomes natural, and thus even paranormal experiences become explained away by science.  But if a continual influx of such substance were to occur then it may become undeniable.

I understand what you're saying.  When I was young I'd watch a show or read a book about other worlds and then become very excited.  I'd pack away a few 'supplies' (random toys) that I'd need on a possible journey to another world and put it away just in case so I could grab it real quick if a vortex suddenly happened to pop up.  But eventually that bag was emptied, and I became of a more philosophical nature and spent my life in ordinary pursuits.

But if you are at least willing to view ordinary things in a miraculous light, you are already halfway there.  Ordinary things are magical, they are even mystical if one dares to approach them in such a fashion.  I might be content to go years or the rest of my life even without seeing one 'supernatural' thing occur (again, what does that even mean in contrast to the natural?) and just notice the miraculousness of ordinary life.

But at the same time, I can't deny that such miracles do exist, having experienced them myself.  Having grown older and let go of the need for such things, they came most naturally, when I least expected them to.  And they were such a delight when they did occur.  You can never predict it or cause it to occur (I cannot even make myself see the miraculous in my surroundings).  That would go beyond the very definition of supernatural (we are natural beings and thus cannot force it into existence).  I will not discuss such experiences for several reasons, however.  For one, they are very personal in nature, and for another, they will simply be explained away.  I have had this happen too many times to make that mistake again.  It does not matter to me whether anyone else believes them, I have had enough verification myself to understand the only rational conclusion one could come to recognizes the reality of the supernatural.

All I'm interested here is revealing the reality of the possibility of the supernatural, and that can be done without verifying specific experiences.

Quote:

Veritas said:
Sorry, but this just sounds like another excuse. :shrug:  If paranormal phenomenon are actually part of the natural world. then they would not shrink away from scrutiny.  This simply does not make sense.  Even if we go with the "s-rays" theory, why would the phenomenon also shrink away from believers who genuinely want to experience such things?



Because, like I said, they are not actually part of the 'natural' world.  If they were then they would not be supernatural (again, recognize that the only sensible distinction is that the natural is able to be controlled by natural entities, and that the supernatural is uncaused by natural entities, coming from 'the beyond').  If supernatural occurences are seen as coming from 'the beyond' then they will retain their supernatural essence.  There have been plenty of things which were deemed paranormal but were then explained away by science, as if that was even the point.  The point is that miracles can occur.  Of course there is some kind of natural explanation for how everything works, as everything is physical in nature, made up of energy or matter.  But what people are trying to refer to is the existence of a realm beyond from which this energy emanates.

I have to say I am horribly unsatisfied with the way I'm explaining this.  It's all coming out kind of garbled, from my perception.  I guess I've rarely (before now) seen the need to defend the supernatural.

Quote:

Veritas said:
Yes, there are things which we cannot perceive with our senses, and we have discovered them by developing technology to explain the evidence which suggested their existence. What I am asking about is why I should believe in phenomenon for which there IS no credible evidence?



If you define 'supernatural' by 'phenomenon for which there is no credible evidence' then I think you may have the wrong concept, or at least the wrong way of looking at it.  Sure there's credible reasoning for the supernatural, at least in the vein that there is for natural things.  That does not, however, mean that it is within our immediate control.

Or let's talk about feeling the emotions of others.  I think a couple of you guys said that of course it occurs, it's a normal experience.  But just because it's normal or has been verified by experience doesn't make it any less miraculous.  In fact, we are miracles ourselves and our existence is beyond our own control.

I feel I need to collect my thoughts more about this discussion, because my thoughts aren't all flowing in the same direction and I almost feel as if I'm switching between different definitions for the same word beyond my recognition.  But maybe what I said is food for thought.


--------------------
"I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou

"To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: I would love to have gone to school at Hogwarts [Re: stellar renegade]
    #7456201 - 09/26/07 03:43 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Let's clarify what "miracle" means:

An event that appears inexplicable by the laws of nature and so is held to be supernatural in origin or an act of God.

Now, to the uninformed, many things could appear miraculous.  Depending upon one's background, even common technology could seem inexplicable and therefore supernatural.  :shrug:

However, if we define "miraculous" in the sense that it would be deemed so even by the most-informed person, then your statement

Quote:

But just because it's normal or has been verified by experience doesn't make it any less miraculous.




is incorrect.  If it is normal and replicable by anyone's experience, then it is not miraculous.  When I turn on the faucet marked "H" and hot water pours forth, it is not a miracle.  When I hit keys on my keyboard and the letters appear on the screen, it is not a miracle.

OK, back to my "method" of investigation.  In my early years, it was primarily hopeful, wide-eyed observation.  I was fascinated with both the natural world I saw every day and the magical world I read about in books.  I wanted both to be true, yet only experienced the former.  There was no sense of "forcing" the paranormal to appear to me, just a watchfulness and deep desire to experience.

If that attitude is not what the so-called supernatural responds to, then what the hell DOES it respond to?  It simply makes no sense to me when people claim that the possession of critical thinking skills somehow bars one from experiencing the mystical, magical things that those without such skills are seeing every day.  :shrug:


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: I would love to have gone to school at Hogwarts [Re: Veritas]
    #7456359 - 09/26/07 04:20 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

http://www.parapsych.org/members/g_schmeidler.html

I was taught parapsychology by parapsychologist/Egyptologist Bob Brier, a co-publisher with 'The Father of Parapsychology,' J.B. Rhine at Duke U. One of Brier's resources was Gertrude Schmeidler, who notes in the above linked article that expectation plays a significant role in significant statistical findings of ESP phenomena.

As for my own experiences, I have archived here somewhere my own handful of experiences of 'ring-like-a-bell-in-the-head' telepathy. On a couple of occasions I repeated the exact sentences back to the person who generated the mental thought and they physically recoiled in fear and horror at both the intrusion and the momentary ability. As a child I had a few precognitive dreams. I cannot prove these experiences to anyone except the couple of people to whom I repeated verbatim the words which they had chosen not to utter but only to think. It doesn't matter. I am convinced of the veracity of the so-called Psi-Functions as are others who have learned to discern them from ordinary sensory experience. This domain remains psychic, not spiritual as does magick.

Of magick, the most authentic practitioner in my experience has been the former Ayahuascaro Pablo Amaringo who was introduced to me via a translator at Miami-Dade College in the early 90s. He asked me, a psychotherapist, if I thought he was crazy about his experiences and practices (like sending out a "strange purple jello" to use a Frank Zappa parallel, from one's mind to accomplish a magickal end). I took along my journal with its crude illustrations (some of which is in my gallery pics) to help assure him that although I couldn't prove or corroborate his subjective experiences, I did not think that he was "loco." He smiled and gave me a hug. His own artwork, if you've never seen it is remarkable! http://images.google.com/images?svnum=10&um=1&hl=en&q=pablo+amaringo

Amaringo's magick was done in a particular locus by himself and others with a particular mind-set. Schmeidler differentiates the "sheep" from the "goats" and like a Schrodinger model, expectation of the psyche has a significant effect on outcome. The notion that there is an objective psychical reality that exists independently of the psyche of the experimenter is obsolete 19th century pre-Einsteinian 'science.' Schrodinger, Heisenberg, Jung & Bohr's synchronicity and Bohm's implicate-explicate orders are all models which should be applied to paranormal phenomena. It turns out that expectation - belief if you will - does have a determining effect on phenomena because ALL phenomena partake of psychic and physical attributes if one can concede the very fabric of space-time to be psychophysical in nature ('radical dualism' on this level).

Because magick seems to operate within the parameters of a worldview described by ancient I Ching philosophy as well as its modern renderings into Jung's definition as an "Acausal Connecting Principle," the linear, dualistic thinking of cause-effect science and its demand for repeatable empirical data runs aground. It is "a separate reality," an acausal worldview within which magickal phenomena manifests. The psychical variables cannot be quantified they can only be qualified subjectively by the intuitive aspect of the magician. Since the acausal universe is psychophysical, it operates by a lawfulness which appears to be random when judged by purely materialistic standards which, again, demand repeatable results when all physical factors are controlled for (temperature, pressure, gravitation, etc.). The psychical factor cannot be controlled because its center of control lies outside the influence of any single controlling human ego. Magick, Psi functions, miracles, sychronicities or whatever model one wishes to use have always been attributed to transcendental agents which are not subject to the 'control' of human egos while at the same time are said to be the accompaniment of particularly sympathetic, harmonious, at-one-ments between an ego and the transcendental agent (God, gods, Tao, etc.). Such phenomena therefore flow from the transcendental agent and are not under the egocentric controls of human egos even though those egos must be in consonance with the transcendental agent for such phenomena to manifest.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Edited by MarkostheGnostic (09/26/07 05:27 PM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: I would love to have gone to school at Hogwarts [Re: Veritas]
    #7456395 - 09/26/07 04:27 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

which side is intended for entertainment?
from which perspective?
hello hogwarts


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Re: I would love to have gone to school at Hogwarts [Re: Veritas]
    #7457171 - 09/26/07 07:26 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

How is approaching life as though it is full of magic forcing it to happen?




Did I imply that this could be the case. The fact is nothing has to be forced. I see wonder every hour of every day....it is in the sunrise...the change in the seasons...the weather...it is everywhere that I choose to focus my attention. Life is more than just mundane and stagnant. There is so little that we know of it's nature. It is mostly mystery...the naugal.

Quote:

My approach for many years was based on the belief that the paranormal WAS real




Paranormal is mostly a meaningless concept since everything is natural and therefore "normal". That being said I do not assume that the universe is cut and dry encyclopedic information.

Quote:

What I am asking about is why I should believe in phenomenon for which there IS no credible evidence?





I base what I deem true on personal perception and experience. This is all any of us can do. So far I have learned that I can assemble my reality by where I put my attention...this IS magic and I do it every day.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Offlinestellar renegade
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Re: I would love to have gone to school at Hogwarts [Re: Veritas]
    #7458749 - 09/27/07 03:34 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Let's clarify what "miracle" means:

An event that appears inexplicable by the laws of nature and so is held to be supernatural in origin or an act of God.

Now, to the uninformed, many things could appear miraculous.  Depending upon one's background, even common technology could seem inexplicable and therefore supernatural.  :shrug:



That's too bad that that's the accepted definition of what a miracle is.  It seems, though, that it's derived from the Latin miraculum, which simply means "a marvel".  I just don't see how "an event that appears inexplicable by the laws of nature" is an adequate definition for it.  I don't think it's any different than anything else that happens in nature - of course, I believe that all nature is a manifestation of the supernatural, so I probably go more with Einstein on this one, "There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."  Sure, miracles could be explained, at least eventually, the same way that any other natural event is.  In fact, I was going to mention the way that a TV would look to a savage myself.  The only reason I'm approaching the concept of there being a difference between the two is because some people seem to think that there is.  "Oh, telepathy can't happen; it's inexplicable by natural law."  Who says it is?  There could be a thousand laws we as yet know nothing about.

What makes the miraculous important is that it's a new way of looking at what we already know.

Quote:

Veritas said:
However, if we define "miraculous" in the sense that it would be deemed so even by the most-informed person, then your statement

Quote:

But just because it's normal or has been verified by experience doesn't make it any less miraculous.




is incorrect.  If it is normal and replicable by anyone's experience, then it is not miraculous.  When I turn on the faucet marked "H" and hot water pours forth, it is not a miracle.  When I hit keys on my keyboard and the letters appear on the screen, it is not a miracle.



Sure, they aren't miraculous by the troublesome, and what appears to me to be meaningless, definition; but they sure are miraculous by virtue of being a marvel, in both their own unique sense and in the same basic sense that everything else is.

Anyway, I deem that the fact that we can experience the emotions of another seems to be by far the most miraculous aspect of life that we could ever encounter.  I am still in awe of it, and probably will be for the rest of my existence.

Quote:

Veritas said:
OK, back to my "method" of investigation.  In my early years, it was primarily hopeful, wide-eyed observation.  I was fascinated with both the natural world I saw every day and the magical world I read about in books.  I wanted both to be true, yet only experienced the former.  There was no sense of "forcing" the paranormal to appear to me, just a watchfulness and deep desire to experience.

If that attitude is not what the so-called supernatural responds to, then what the hell DOES it respond to?  It simply makes no sense to me when people claim that the possession of critical thinking skills somehow bars one from experiencing the mystical, magical things that those without such skills are seeing every day.  :shrug:



The only kind of "critical thinking skills" that I find problem with here is assumption by canceling out options by virtue of experience.  It goes back to the mousetrap analogy.  "I haven't experienced it, so it isn't real."  That doesn't even touch whether it's real or not; it simply means that you haven't encountered it.  I'm sorry if I come off as harsh, and I feel a little sad that you were disappointed to the degree that you were; but I have to state it the way that I see it.

If you want my viewpoint, the supernatural doesn't respond to anything.  To the contrary, we respond to it.  It cannot, will not be coaxed; nor does it obey the whims and fancies of mortals.  Rather, I would say that it laughs at them.  Where one day it may respond to the prayer of a child, the next day it will not come when called, and no one can tell precisely why.  But this is precisely what makes it supernatural (above nature); if it were subjugated to nature and to our whims, it would no longer be supernatural.*

In fact, I think the best way to experience the supernatural is to simply acknowledge this fact and continue on.  If one tries to violate this law or cause it to go out of existence, they will merely frustrate themselves and their lives even further.  This, I think, is the cause, or related to the cause, of most of the problems of humanity.  We are trying to get at something intangible or elusive that simply will not bow to our individual, or collective, whims.  This is probably why the Greeks came up with the myth of King Tantalus, who was condemned to Hades where the water was always just beyond his chin, and the fruit of the tree always just beyond his grasp.

This is also why it cannot be reduced to an experiment.  The moment it is, it has either passed from the realm of the supernatural or has proven itself to not have been a part of it at all.  There is nothing more frustrating than trying to squeeze supernatural elements out of life; and, I maintain, nothing more refreshing than simply letting them come to you.  I believe that if you let things be and give them enough time, neither denying their existence nor trying to force them into being, supernatural elements will eventually come to you either in this life or the next. In the meantime, it doesn't matter much; at least you hold no presuppositions.

There's a humorous passage by C.S. Lewis where he cites an example of an experiment meant to prove/disprove prayer.  One hospital is prayed for and another is not, in order to demonstrate whether prayer has power over people being healed.  But, as he points out, what is the point of prayer if you simply intend to prove an experiment?  Are the people praying deciding to be apathetic and stone-hearted towards the individuals in the one hospital while being compassionate and merciful towards the ones in the other?  It is no wonder that such an experiment would fall flat on its face.  This is just one example of how trying to test the supernatural is futile.  It could further be asked, how do you know that the other hospital was not also being prayed for by another group of people whom you are not aware of?  Such things happen all the time.

What's more curious to me than anything else is how certain types of people base, or at least try to base, all of their understanding of the universe on totally concrete, testable, irreducible experiments.  Don't they know that life is much more than what you can experiment with?  If you were to accept more than what you could put under a microscope, you would also be able to think logically about those things which were previously so vague and elusive.  I maintain that the supernatural can become understood, even controlled - if only one were to be willing to become supernatural themselves.  All of life could be understood that way - but it can't happen by accepting only that which you currently know.  Nothing new is gained that way, and in fact, we have learned nothing by that methodology.

Just as a baby learns things about its surroundings and begins to understand language and abstract concepts by first learning to trust those around it and that what he sees and hears and feels has substance, and incorporates intuition until it finally becomes knowledge, so we can learn new kinds of things by feeling our way intuitively, as well.  After all, this is how humanity has become so advanced - we didn't always know what we know now.  Everything that has been learned had to be searched out in the dark, so to speak, with intuitive knowledge.  What makes this field, that of the supernatual and paranormal, any different?

Far from the childlike, believing soul being the fool of the universe, it is the modernised, knowledgeable yet close-minded "expert" who denies the essence of that which is right under his nose.

*Still, though, I believe that if you accept certain supernatural laws already in place (submit to it on its own terms) then you would be able to experiment to your satisfaction.  These laws work just as any other (again, ultimately disproving the distinction between the natural and the supernatural).  Oftentimes these experiments do not take certain things into account, and come up against a barrier that at least momentarily seems to disprove the possibility of the supernatural event; but this would not be of necessity anymore of a disproof than Edison's original failures in creating a working lightbulb.  Each time there was something else that had to be tweaked so that it would work according to laws governing the required phenomena that were already in place naturally.


--------------------
"I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou

"To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald


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Invisibledorkus
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Re: I would love to have gone to school at Hogwarts [Re: Veritas]
    #7459193 - 09/27/07 08:16 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Quote:

dorkus said:
Can you honestly say you have no experience with telepathy? :smile: You've even made posts about communicating with a friend on "the inner plane". I remember clearly that you said it happened during a mushroom trip, and that he confirmed it to you by saying something a few days later.




Are you referring to this post?

To answer the same question you directed to me: No, I have not had any experiences with telepathy that could not be adequately explained by empathy and context.  :shrug:  I have had very intense empathic experiences, where I could almost voice the other persons' thoughts, but the content was emotional in nature, and not mental.




No, I was referring to this. Don't know if it could be referred to as ESP though, it was slightly different than i remembered it. A long time since it was posted.

Anyway, I'm open to the possibility that it is only empathy, even though my suspicion based on many experiences says that I have dwelled in the same mind as others, sort of fused into one. Other things too, but I have no desire to discuss this. It can't be debated, it can't be proved. And it doesn't really matter so much.


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Re: I would love to have gone to school at Hogwarts [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7459597 - 09/27/07 10:02 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

NiamhNyx said:
Magic is part of the inner world and needs to be recognized as such. It isn't an objective, tangible thing that happens in the physical world - it is part of the unconcious mind and is metaphorical. It can be shared when people share symbols and stories, but that doesn't mean that levitation is an objective reality or that people can fly like Peter Pan. It means that these concepts are symbolic of a psychological process, or perhaps are archetypal. This doesn't diminish the value of it at all, it just means it's not to be taken literally. Kind of like the bible.






--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: I would love to have gone to school at Hogwarts [Re: Icelander]
    #7460324 - 09/27/07 01:14 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

oh magic. the world of folklore and fables. of fairies and gnomes and bendable worlds.
well it seems beautiful enough that we share the common bond of wishing for these things. every culture has some magical stories.
whether this is a reality of the world we live in. its doubtful.
but the way i see it. these stories, rekindle the fire of curiosity and wonder in the eyes of many people who throughout history have lost hope and whos lives have thrown so much shit at them, that hearing it lightens the weight of their world a little.


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Re: I would love to have gone to school at Hogwarts [Re: evolprim]
    #7460409 - 09/27/07 01:46 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Piling ignorance upon the troubles of the world does not alleviate anything; instead it increases the anguish by creating new problems.


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Re: I would love to have gone to school at Hogwarts [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7461929 - 09/27/07 08:13 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

good point about creating new problems.however i think my point didnt come across correctly.

its like fairy tales. its a nice story . piques the kids imagination and brings a sparkle to their eye. when these kids grow up and become cut throat adults who are hell bent on surviving at all costs, that magic is lost.

im not saying that one should delude themselves into believing fairies are real to counter this or take these things literally. but that the innocence that is conveyed in these fairy tales should not be lost from the hearts of mankind.


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Re: I would love to have gone to school at Hogwarts [Re: evolprim]
    #7461985 - 09/27/07 08:28 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Innocence = ignorance?


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