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Offlinefivepointer
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Calling the Ungodly - Good News
    #7441369 - 09/22/07 06:11 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

The scripture declares all ungodly and all fall short of the glory of God. It declares man to be dead in transgressions and blind to God's standard of righteousness. It also says man is blind to these truths due to his innate state of spiritual depravity. The good news is to the ungodly, for those who are made to see their own unrighteousness before the unbending law of God. The good news is only to those who know themselves to be undone and ruined as unrighteous and without hope. The only way to know this is by the convicting power wrought by the Spirit of God on the soul of the dead wretch. This is the first step in the conversion of the unrighteous. You are not able to see yourself as ungodly. But the good news is to the ungodly. God convicts the ungodly so that the good news can apply in their consciences. He is completely sovereign in bringing the spiritually dead to spiritual life. This quickening comes with power, and the Spirit and the Word of truth is believed.

Grace overcomes all transgressions. Grace is the good news. Grace is forgiveness. Grace is love. Grace is gentle. The converted are shown God's grace and are thankful for it. They are completely undeserving of it and they know it. Life is through the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ alone. May you one day know what I am saying. May God bless all those reading this, through Jesus Christ's precious blood alone.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: fivepointer]
    #7441395 - 09/22/07 06:21 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

This is a good forum for this.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineBooby
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: fivepointer]
    #7441401 - 09/22/07 06:23 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Do you believe what the scriptures say?

(is he who hesitates really lost...)


Edited by Booby (09/22/07 06:31 PM)


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: fivepointer]
    #7441489 - 09/22/07 07:04 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Let the game begin  :matrix2:

:mob:

:lolocaust:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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OfflineWScott
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7442385 - 09/23/07 12:27 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

fivepointer, did Jesus want to be worshipped as God, or did he want Man to worship God along side him?


--------------------


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Offlinestellar renegade
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: fivepointer]
    #7442556 - 09/23/07 01:40 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

fivepointer, are you a Calvinist?

To be honest, I think your methodology of expressing your doctrines may be slightly off.

I mean, I'm sure you really do love the people here, and everyone in the world, but saying that someone is 'depraved' has quite a different meaning than it did to people centuries ago.  Heck, even then I think it probably didn't even give the right impression.

Also, you're making it sound as if the law of God is an arbitrary whim and not common sense to every individual.  Please read Romans 2 through carefully.

All that aside, what constitutes making a person 'depraved'?  Is there one definition for all, or is it different for each person?  What is it specifically that they have to realize about themselves and God's law in order to change and become, shall I say, good?

Also, what does God do for us after we accept Him?

Thanks for your response in advance.

Cheers :smile: :chugbeer:


Edited by stellar renegade (09/23/07 01:48 AM)


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: WScott]
    #7442994 - 09/23/07 05:58 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

WScottsdale said:
fivepointer, did Jesus want to be worshipped as God, or did he want Man to worship God along side him?



Jesus is the express image of God, if you have seen Jesus you have seen the Father. In Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. The world was created by Him and for Him. I don’t see how you can worship God without worshipping Jesus as well.


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: stellar renegade]
    #7442996 - 09/23/07 06:01 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

fivepointer, are you a Calvinist?

The term "Calvinist" can mean different things depending on how you care to define it. I would say I agree with the TULIP, that salvation is 100% by grace, and 0% by works. In fact if someone thinks salvation is 0.0001% works they have missed the gospel entirely. Most "Calvinists" do not exclusively believe that pure grace is a gospel essential that is revealed in conversion. I believe all Arminians are unregenerate without exception, and all who tolerate Arminians (toleration is considering them within the bounds of orthodoxy) are unregenerate as well. For this I am shunned by modern "Calvinists" of today.

To be honest, I think your methodology of expressing your doctrines may be slightly off.

I mean, I'm sure you really do love the people here, and everyone in the world, but saying that someone is 'depraved' has quite a different meaning than it did to people centuries ago. Heck, even then I think it probably didn't even give the right impression.

Also, you're making it sound as if the law of God is an arbitrary whim and not common sense to every individual. Please read Romans 2 through carefully.


Romans 2 explains that man has the law written on his heart, and he is without excuse. However, man is unable to understand the righteousness of God, due to his depraved nature due to the fall. Unregenerate man can not understand the law, that it requires absolute perfection, and God is absolutely holy. Religious man stumbles on the law, thinking that he can obtain right standing with God through good works. Today this usually takes the form of believing that justification comes due to performing various righteous acts, such as making a decision, getting baptized, following sacraments, acts of penance, keeping from sin, going to church, ect.. All these things do not, and can not justify. No act done by a sinner can justify. Only the perfect law keeping of Jesus Christ is acceptable to God, man's works do not enter into the equation. If someone thinks man must synergize with Christ in some way to activate justification, they have missed the gospel.

All that aside, what constitutes making a person 'depraved'? Is there one definition for all, or is it different for each person?

The term "depraved" describes the nature of all men by birth. When most people hear the term "depraved" they think of someone who goes around killing infants, robbing, doing the most horrific acts. This is not how the term is being used here. The most seemingly good, honest, kind, "religious" man is totally depraved. The depravity is the spiritual blindness shown by holding various false notions about God, this is due to the blindness man in born into. The blindness is so total that man can not even see that he is blind. Only when the gospel is revealed does the person realize how lost and blind he was.

What is it specifically that they have to realize about themselves and God's law in order to change and become, shall I say, good? Also, what does God do for us after we accept Him?

When God shows the gospel to someone He shows them who they are by nature, and this is not pretty. The law is a killing instrument, to drive the self-righteous religionist away from themselves and to Christ and His righteousness. Then He gives them a new heart, a new nature, a real change happens to the innermost parts. Any "good" done is because God has wrought that "good" in them due to the new nature that has been freely given.



“Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound,
That saved a wretch like me....
I once was lost but now am found,
Was blind, but now, I see.”


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: fivepointer]
    #7443002 - 09/23/07 06:12 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Are you doing some kind of Chaos Magic exercise where you pretend to be an evangelical Xtian?


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OfflineVisionary Tools
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Middleman]
    #7443026 - 09/23/07 06:27 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

More people say Mohammed is the one true path to god than Jesus. Wouldn't it be a laugh, you die, the three representatives of the worlds major western religions all are there, and turn placards to say "Bluff."

Then you just wasted your entire life being pious for the wrong religion, when you could have lead a virtuous life without rubbing it in peoples faces.


--------------------


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Middleman]
    #7443028 - 09/23/07 06:29 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Middleman said:
Are you doing some kind of Chaos Magic exercise where you pretend to be an evangelical Xtian?



I had to Wiki "Chaos Magic", you learn something new every day. The answer to your question is no.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Middleman]
    #7444104 - 09/23/07 01:22 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Middleman said:
Are you doing some kind of Chaos Magic exercise where you pretend to be an evangelical Xtian?




You wouldn't be mocking his beliefs, would you? That's not allowed here.


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Redstorm]
    #7444136 - 09/23/07 01:31 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

No. It was a serious question, due to some of his earlier threads.


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InvisibleCracka_X
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: fivepointer]
    #7445848 - 09/23/07 09:39 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I think a lot of what you say parallels the beliefs of others. Whether you're able to comprehend them being one in the same seems to be the major question in my mind.

In Chinese, a symbol/letter/character(caricature?) has more than one meaning. This could be the same for English but our language tends to have more precise meaning(as far as I know).

correct me if I'm wrong, but the original new testament was written in Greek? so translations would appear to me to have lost some of the original integrity of these, I guess, scriptures.

Either way, I don't know what your definition of grace or any other holy diety-like extension is but I can definately relate with others who've gone into a trance/altered-state/speak for themselves and not of a book, and have felt this unversal connection with them. At the same time, I feel like if you were to come to accept something completely alien, such that of a trance or whatever then you'd find an outrageous similarity between those feelings and the feelings you experience at an evangelical revival or maybe even sunday services.

I have no idea what right or wrong but I know the world doesn't beat to just one drum so what might be right for you may not be right for some. (I know I had to throw that in there.)


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing


Edited by Cracka_X (09/24/07 01:15 AM)


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Offlinestellar renegade
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: fivepointer]
    #7446528 - 09/24/07 02:43 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

fivepointer, to put it short and sweet, I think your views are more extreme than the honest impression that reality lays upon us.  I know this isn't the philosophical forum so I'm not debating, but it just appears to me that you're holding onto certain experiences which appear to be very legitimate (at least I have found them to be so) and yet believing as if they're the only kind which exist.

Words are just expressions, and concepts are fluid.  I believe that God is much more loose with these outward manifestations of salvation than even most people would believe.  To God, salvation is in the heart (as you, fivepointer, believe), but not everybody's heart is like an on/off switch.  If you'll notice in Jesus' ministry there were varying degrees of attraction to him.  There was a very real dynamic of attraction vs. repulsion going on, and it is true that people could not both follow him and not follow him, but at the same time I think that many people wanted to follow him but didn't/couldn't bring themselves to, and even the Pharisees could, at times, see their sin, even though they did not repent of it.  Also, disciples left him at varying points because they could accept some things he said but not others.  So that's why I can't bring myself to believe precisely the same way as you do.  Although, I did used to feel that way, to be honest.

Also, I believe that salvation is entirely by grace but that most people will not understand that subtle dynamic unless it's embodied in some visual act of repentance.  The problem is in making sure that people know it's not because of the act that they are saved, but that their act is (if required of, or volunteered by them) a sign of their repentance.

Anyway, I think you are on the right path and basically have the right motivations about all of this. :smile:


--------------------
"I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou

"To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: stellar renegade]
    #7452360 - 09/25/07 03:52 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Anyway, I think you are on the right path and basically have the right motivations about all of this. :smile:


Especially his belief that all babies that have not received salvation by accepting Christ are going to burn for eternity in hell.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Icelander]
    #7452436 - 09/25/07 04:17 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Come on Icelander, you should know better than to generalize like that.

He never said he believed that. Not all Xtians believe the same things!

It's cool to add conflicting opinions in here, but don't be a sarcastic arse about it PLEASE! :mad:

You have been warned. :sun:


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Middleman]
    #7454461 - 09/26/07 05:14 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Fivepointer said:

Quote:


The concept that everyone must have an "opportunity" is not Biblical at all. Countless millions have lived and died with no gospel "opportunity". Divine will and purpose are never frustrated by man, each and every person that God intends to save, will become saved, as a direct result of the perfect work performed by Jesus Christ on behalf of His people. Christ's work is NOT for those who perish. His work guarantees salvation for His chosen people and none others!




http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/2647129#Post2647129

Quote:

People who have never heard the gospel in remote areas of the world and die unconverted, will be righteously judged on the last day and be cast into the Lake of Fire. Every one for whom Christ died will hear the gospel in time, and be converted no exceptions. God is sovereign in His actions and has predestinated who will inherit salvation, and who will be damned. Those who hold to Judaism, Islam, Buddhism etc. will not be saved if they continue in that belief until they die.




http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5121342#5121342


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Redstorm]
    #7454547 - 09/26/07 06:09 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Ok I see your point.

I'm praying to The Shroomery gods that "Religion" be removed from M,R+P.


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InvisibleCracka_X
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Redstorm]
    #7454999 - 09/26/07 09:07 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I had no idea he has been around here that long.

that thread makes me want to vomit, eat my vomit and then vomit again.


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Cracka_X]
    #7455008 - 09/26/07 09:11 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I know this is the one forum where people can express and discuss their beliefs without fear of critiscism, but evangelism should not be allowed, imo.


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Offlinehummermania00
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Middleman]
    #7455925 - 09/26/07 02:21 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Middleman said:
I know this is the one forum where people can express and discuss their beliefs without fear of critiscism, but evangelism should not be allowed, imo.




How do you define evangelism? Is it only christian based conversion attempts that you would wish to ban?
Here is the definition of evangelism.
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/evangelism
This means that all attemps to convince anybody of virtually anything should be banned. Is this how you intended it?


--------------------
You are a fortunate person indeed, if you can begin each day accepting the fact that during that day there will be ups and downs, good breaks and bad ones, disappointments, surprises, and unexpected turns of events.

When you have solved all the mysteries of life you long for death, for it is but another mystery of life.


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

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Posts: 8,399
Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: hummermania00]
    #7456158 - 09/26/07 03:32 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Yah ok, I knew someone would say that, it just seems Xtians are the only ones who actually do it.

I know there can't be any double standards in here, I recently closed a thread where people were criticizing Satanists.

I just take offense to the above "Ungodly" inference...


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InvisibleCracka_X
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: hummermania00]
    #7456247 - 09/26/07 03:52 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I guess it'd be an all or none case.

I don't think anyone else tries to be "evangelical", in the bad way many see it, as much as christians.

Fivepointer doesn't want to debate or discuss recent findings in his journey through life. To the contrary, he just spews biblical statements and quotes scripture as proof as him being right and anyone against him as wrong.

People usually discuss certain experiences rather than holding them as "The Truth"

maybe i'm wrong but that's what I see.


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Middleman]
    #7456251 - 09/26/07 03:53 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Personally, I'm just fine with being "ungodly."  I mean, it's kinda hard to take offense when you are deemed un-something you don't believe exists. 

Hey, you are unEasterBunnylike!  And you, you over there, you are unLochNessMonstery!  Your behavior is very unSantaClausy...you're not going to the North Pole when you die, and you'll get a lump of coal in your stocking! :lol:

Even if you do believe in God, how many people believe that some random fundamentalist on an internet forum has the inside scoop on what God likes and dislikes?  :tongue:


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Veritas]
    #7456265 - 09/26/07 03:57 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

:lol:

Well, I know God exists... She lives in a tent in my backyard and she smells like patchouli. :heart:


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InvisibleCracka_X
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Veritas]
    #7456269 - 09/26/07 03:58 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

hahahaha true


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Middleman]
    #7456329 - 09/26/07 04:14 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

That's Goddess...she's pretty cool, though I do not share her taste in perfume.  :lol:


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: stellar renegade]
    #7456420 - 09/26/07 04:35 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

stellar renegade said:
fivepointer, to put it short and sweet, I think your views are more extreme than the honest impression that reality lays upon us.  I know this isn't the philosophical forum so I'm not debating, but it just appears to me that you're holding onto certain experiences which appear to be very legitimate (at least I have found them to be so) and yet believing as if they're the only kind which exist.

Words are just expressions, and concepts are fluid.  I believe that God is much more loose with these outward manifestations of salvation than even most people would believe.  To God, salvation is in the heart (as you, fivepointer, believe), but not everybody's heart is like an on/off switch.  If you'll notice in Jesus' ministry there were varying degrees of attraction to him.  There was a very real dynamic of attraction vs. repulsion going on, and it is true that people could not both follow him and not follow him, but at the same time I think that many people wanted to follow him but didn't/couldn't bring themselves to, and even the Pharisees could, at times, see their sin, even though they did not repent of it.  Also, disciples left him at varying points because they could accept some things he said but not others.  So that's why I can't bring myself to believe precisely the same way as you do.  Although, I did used to feel that way, to be honest.

Also, I believe that salvation is entirely by grace but that most people will not understand that subtle dynamic unless it's embodied in some visual act of repentance.  The problem is in making sure that people know it's not because of the act that they are saved, but that their act is (if required of, or volunteered by them) a sign of their repentance.

Anyway, I think you are on the right path and basically have the right motivations about all of this. :smile:



Your question on Romans 2 had me thinking.  I think you are trying to say Romans 2 nullifies the doctrine of total depravity.  In the statement above you say salvation is a matter of the heart.  So I'm guessing you believe unregenerate man has some divine light apart from regeneration, and can know God simply from this residual light.  Correct me if I'm reading you wrong.  If this is what you are saying then I totally disagree with it.  Unregenerate man had NO LIGHT in his heart, in fact it is described as spiritually dead.  He needs a heart transplant, a whole new heart, and he can not do this on his own. 

Next you say you believe in grace.  Now let me ask you some questions about this.  Do you believe in unconditional election / reprobation? (that election is not based on foreseen acts, but only on God's will prior to any acts?)  Do you believe in a hypothetical universal atonement that makes every person potentially savable if they perform certain actions?  Do you believe a person can "fall from grace" and loose salvation?  I ask because most people I meet say "grace" but when questioned they don't believe in the true grace of the Bible.


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Icelander]
    #7456496 - 09/26/07 04:49 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Especially his belief that all babies that have not received salvation by accepting Christ are going to burn for eternity in hell.




You question has a hidden assumption in it. That salvation is obtained by the act of acceptance. I do not agree with this notion. Salvation is obtained by the sovereign grace of God, and observed by faith. The faith does not obtain, nothing a sinner does is pleasing to God, not even faith. Saving faith is the gift of God, it obtains nothing, but observes what has been given.

As far as babies go, all born are born into a common fall, including babies. All are imputatively condemned in Adam. By birth in Adam all are born with a fallen nature, and are condemned by imputation. Just as the saved are imputed righteous in Christ, not because they are righteous, but by Christ's righteousness they have Christ's imputed righteousness.

So if someone dies, whether a baby, or anyone else, without being converted and coming into a belief of the truth, we know God never intended to save them. God decrees the salvation and damnation of every person prior to any actions committed by them.


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InvisibleCracka_X
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: fivepointer]
    #7456586 - 09/26/07 05:12 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

So if someone dies, whether a baby, or anyone else, without being converted and coming into a belief of the truth, we know God never intended to save them. God decrees the salvation and damnation of every person prior to any actions committed by them.




God sounds like an adolescent kid. Or a ruthless king of some sort.


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: fivepointer]
    #7456726 - 09/26/07 05:42 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I have a short and clear question for you:
Will pope Benedict make it to heaven?
:strokebeard:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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OfflineBooby
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7456856 - 09/26/07 06:16 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Whose heaven? "If you are not with me you are against me" could be the basis for "You will be thrown into a lake of fire." I'm sure the Christian God is quite jealous and wants to retain as many subjects as possible.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Booby]
    #7456919 - 09/26/07 06:32 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Well that was kind of my point :lol:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisibleAlteredAgain
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Booby]
    #7456936 - 09/26/07 06:34 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

breaking news: heaven is a state of mind that can be realized by anybody at any given moment right here on planet earth.


--------------------


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OfflineLion
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: AlteredAgain]
    #7456957 - 09/26/07 06:38 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

:laugh:


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7456961 - 09/26/07 06:39 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
I have a short and clear question for you:
Will pope Benedict make it to heaven?
:strokebeard:



If he remains in the false gospel of Roman Catholicism, no.  Perhaps one  day God will grant him gospel repentance and be converted.


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Booby]
    #7456968 - 09/26/07 06:41 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Booby said:
Whose heaven? "If you are not with me you are against me" could be the basis for "You will be thrown into a lake of fire." I'm sure the Christian God is quite jealous and wants to retain as many subjects as possible.



He retains as many subjects as He has decreed to retain.


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: AlteredAgain]
    #7456979 - 09/26/07 06:42 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I'shua said to them, "When you make the two one, and when you make the inside like the outside and the outside like the inside, and the above like the below, and when you make the male and the female one and the same, so that the male not be male nor the female female; and when you fashion eyes in the place of an eye, and a hand in place of a hand, and a foot in place of a foot, and a likeness in place of a likeness; then will you enter the kingdom of heaven." - Gospel of Thomas


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Middleman]
    #7457018 - 09/26/07 06:50 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

The "Gospel of Thomas" is not scripture.


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: fivepointer]
    #7457084 - 09/26/07 07:06 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Who makes that decision?


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Middleman]
    #7457090 - 09/26/07 07:07 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

5 pointer :hehehe:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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OfflineBooby
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7457117 - 09/26/07 07:14 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

The fall guy.


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InvisibleAlteredAgain
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Middleman]
    #7457127 - 09/26/07 07:17 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

The (El)ders, those who are (El)ected and (El)evated into positions of power and authority.


--------------------


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: AlteredAgain]
    #7457142 - 09/26/07 07:22 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Could it beeeeeeeeeeeee Saturn?

Booby: :lol:


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OfflineBooby
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: AlteredAgain]
    #7457147 - 09/26/07 07:23 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Crypticism! Elle (as in 'she') bow (as in archery) elbow (as in the shape of the archery bow resembles the upper lip) Have you been 'elbowed'? "She" is talking to you. Who is "She"?


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OfflineBooby
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Booby]
    #7457172 - 09/26/07 07:26 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Booby said:
Crypticism! Elle (as in 'she') bow (as in archery) elbow (as in the shape of the archery bow resembles the upper lip) Have you been 'elbowed'? "She" is talking to you. Who is "She"?




The mother of God


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InvisibleAlteredAgain
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Middleman]
    #7457183 - 09/26/07 07:29 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Or perhaps it could be Santa and his (El)ves.. hmm..

:strokebeard:


--------------------


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OfflineBooby
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: AlteredAgain]
    #7457203 - 09/26/07 07:32 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Is he another "fall" guy?

(S)he who hesitates is lost.


Edited by Booby (09/26/07 07:41 PM)


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OfflineBooby
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Booby]
    #7457350 - 09/26/07 08:00 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Booby said:


(is he who hesitates really lost...)




Let's hope not.


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Booby]
    #7457378 - 09/26/07 08:09 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I used to love watching The Fall Guy.

I want to point out to any watch dogs that we are not making fun of fivepointer or Xtianity, we are simply making fun. (for a change)


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OfflineBooby
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Middleman]
    #7457425 - 09/26/07 08:21 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

No, I am defending fivepointer as the 'elect' of God to take the fall in His place.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Middleman]
    #7459948 - 09/27/07 11:36 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Middleman said:
Come on Icelander, you should know better than to generalize like that.

He never said he believed that. Not all Xtians believe the same things!

It's cool to add conflicting opinions in here, but don't be a sarcastic arse about it PLEASE! :mad:

You have been warned. :sun:





I'm afraid you are incorrect as he did state this in another thread. Please check your facts before issuing warnings.:tongue:

And in this thread five pointer states.


As far as babies go, all born are born into a common fall, including babies. All are imputatively condemned in Adam. By birth in Adam all are born with a fallen nature, and are condemned by imputation. Just as the saved are imputed righteous in Christ, not because they are righteous, but by Christ's righteousness they have Christ's imputed righteousness.

So if someone dies, whether a baby, or anyone else, without being converted and coming into a belief of the truth, we know God never intended to save them. God decrees the salvation and damnation of every person prior to any actions committed by them.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (09/27/07 11:42 AM)


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Icelander]
    #7460291 - 09/27/07 01:05 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Got it Man, Redstorm said that and I said "I see your point". That's why I never sent an official warning. :peace:


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Icelander]
    #7461088 - 09/27/07 04:54 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

Middleman said:
Come on Icelander, you should know better than to generalize like that.

He never said he believed that. Not all Xtians believe the same things!

It's cool to add conflicting opinions in here, but don't be a sarcastic arse about it PLEASE! :mad:

You have been warned. :sun:





I'm afraid you are incorrect as he did state this in another thread. Please check your facts before issuing warnings.:tongue:

And in this thread five pointer states.


As far as babies go, all born are born into a common fall, including babies. All are imputatively condemned in Adam. By birth in Adam all are born with a fallen nature, and are condemned by imputation. Just as the saved are imputed righteous in Christ, not because they are righteous, but by Christ's righteousness they have Christ's imputed righteousness.

So if someone dies, whether a baby, or anyone else, without being converted and coming into a belief of the truth, we know God never intended to save them. God decrees the salvation and damnation of every person prior to any actions committed by them.





I don't know why you are so upset that only those who are converted by the grace of God will be saved from righteous wrath.  I don't create doctrines out of thin air, this is what it says.  You have a problem with the author (who is God).  You can try to make God out to be unfair and unjust, but the fault lies in your lack of understanding about who God is and who man is.


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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: fivepointer]
    #7461255 - 09/27/07 05:32 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

You may not personally create these ideas out of thin air, but it is extremely likely that other men DID. Digging up some dusty text and proclaiming it the word of an unseen authority does not make it so. And you do choose to propagate these beliefs through your posts here, so you might take a bit of responsibility for the nature of said beliefs.

Any belief system that contains so much hatred and anger, so much discrimination against even the most-innocent among us, is bogus, IMO.


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Veritas]
    #7461336 - 09/27/07 05:54 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
You may not personally create these ideas out of thin air, but it is extremely likely that other men DID. Digging up some dusty text and proclaiming it the word of an unseen authority does not make it so. And you do choose to propagate these beliefs through your posts here, so you might take a bit of responsibility for the nature of said beliefs.

Any belief system that contains so much hatred and anger, so much discrimination against even the most-innocent among us, is bogus, IMO.



At the very core of the differences between us lies in the fact that I view scripture as the infallible Word of God while you view it as some collection of writing by fallible men.

No one is innocent, all are born in the fall, babies included.


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: fivepointer]
    #7461351 - 09/27/07 05:58 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

You mean everyone's a Libra?

Just kidding. :tongue:


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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: fivepointer]
    #7461358 - 09/27/07 05:59 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Well, I will conclude by saying that I very strongly hope that you are wrong.


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InvisibleCracka_X
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Veritas]
    #7461608 - 09/27/07 06:53 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

The exciting thing is that one day we're all going to find out!! Yayyy! :laugh:


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing


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OfflineFocusHawaii
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Cracka_X]
    #7461732 - 09/27/07 07:20 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Not really, if judgement never comes then it has still yet to happen. Theology is dumb like that, nothing disproves a proposition.


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Offlinehummermania00
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Middleman]
    #7462325 - 09/27/07 09:47 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Middleman said:
Yah ok, I knew someone would say that, it just seems Xtians are the only ones who actually do it.

I know there can't be any double standards in here, I recently closed a thread where people were criticizing Satanists.

I just take offense to the above "Ungodly" inference...




I understand where you are coming from. Here is a quote from CS Lewis, a christian writer.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
I think it speaks for itself.


--------------------
You are a fortunate person indeed, if you can begin each day accepting the fact that during that day there will be ups and downs, good breaks and bad ones, disappointments, surprises, and unexpected turns of events.

When you have solved all the mysteries of life you long for death, for it is but another mystery of life.


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OfflineBooby
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: fivepointer]
    #7463154 - 09/28/07 05:42 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:

At the very core of the differences between us lies in the fact that I view scripture as the infallible Word of God while you view it as some collection of writing by fallible men.

No one is innocent, all are born in the fall, babies included.




Obviously you are mistaken on all counts "for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.." luke 16:8, and you consider yourself a child of light don't you?

(edit: awesome 666 post)


Edited by Booby (09/28/07 05:48 AM)


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OfflineBooby
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: fivepointer]
    #7463189 - 09/28/07 06:06 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:


No one is innocent, all are born in the fall, babies included.




The benefit of the doubt concedes that we may be mistaken. We both may be mistaken. All that is left then is to live with our own conscience. This then suggests to me that it is our own conscience that judges us, not something outside of us.


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OfflineBooby
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Booby]
    #7463200 - 09/28/07 06:14 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Booby said:
it is our own conscience that judges us, not something outside of us.




I'm wrong I know, so don't quote me on that.


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Offlinepalmersc
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Veritas]
    #7465452 - 09/28/07 07:56 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Well, I will conclude by saying that I very strongly hope that you are wrong.




fivepointer is speaking truth. I used to scoff at his posts while reasoning that God would not condemn anybody forever.

Fear of the LORD is what is lacking. No respect.

We all expect there to be justice here on earth, so why act so surprised when those who rejoice in sin are punished for it? I'll try and tone it down a bit because I'd like you to take it seriously.

Pride. That is the major stumbling block for most on this board. God will not hear those who think themselves to be gods themselves. He helps those who cannot help themselves. Until you are willing to take a knee before him and genuinely ask him for help, he will let you continue in your ways.


In my case I continued in my ways for a couple years of intense meditation and occasional psychedelic drug usage. Seemed to be working out pretty good. There was no God to hound me or written codes to live by. So I sat and meditated for hours and hours clearing my mind and letting down my guard. I practiced a technique of letting go of all resistance and acceptance of what is.

Little did I know that I was opening myself up to EVERYTHING out there. This is what might have happened to me:

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/calcom32.ii.xv.html

Basically my mind was prime real estate for evil spirits. Believe it or not.

I began getting thoughts that I was Jesus. This happened on a few trips too. Have you ever heard of anybody thinking they were Muhammad or Buddha or any other religious figure? Jesus is a name which is above all others. God in the flesh.

So what happened to me in my especially depraved state was not fun. I fought and fought and was repeatedly shown the gospel. I would not hear it initially, but so many signs occurred and coincidences beyond explanation that I finally opened my ears and began to hear. Even then the battle still raged on.

Basically all my fighting broke me down and instilled a fear of the Lord which was not there before. The stakes are high here. Very high. And there is only one hope. Jesus.

Fear of the Lord is where it began for me. I am pretty hard headed.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: palmersc]
    #7465649 - 09/28/07 09:06 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

This is your truth, not everybody else's.
Those who don't don't ask for justice can be left alone by god.
How can anyone believe, that in this huge Universe which supports all the possibilities, has such a bitch of a god?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Offlinestellar renegade
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7465806 - 09/28/07 10:09 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Wow... I kept checking back here only to find no replies... then a couple of days later, it exploded.

Craaaazy, man. Too much to really respond to.

One has to wonder how much security one can find in a religion until he gets so sick of the condemnation and hate and constant fear that he begins searching for something else... my response is coming up.


--------------------
"I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou

"To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: stellar renegade]
    #7465828 - 09/28/07 10:16 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

One has to wonder how much security one can find in a religion until he gets so sick of the condemnation and hate and constant fear that he begins searching for something else...




It's a closed circuit if you analyze it.
It has the fear inducement and the "salvation"... hard to get out of it this way.
But then again, I really don't have anything against someone's beliefs, no matter how weird they are, as long as they don't try to convert others. This is what really sucks.
To each his own :shrug:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Offlinestellar renegade
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: fivepointer]
    #7465926 - 09/28/07 10:43 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Your question on Romans 2 had me thinking.  I think you are trying to say Romans 2 nullifies the doctrine of total depravity.  In the statement above you say salvation is a matter of the heart.  So I'm guessing you believe unregenerate man has some divine light apart from regeneration, and can know God simply from this residual light.  Correct me if I'm reading you wrong.  If this is what you are saying then I totally disagree with it.  Unregenerate man had NO LIGHT in his heart, in fact it is described as spiritually dead.  He needs a heart transplant, a whole new heart, and he can not do this on his own.



Yes I do think it nullifies it, at least the way you are presenting it here.

Let's have a quote or two, shall we?:

There will be... glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism. (vs. 9-11)

All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) (vs. 12-15)

I think the people here have shown a remarkable ability to follow their conscience.  They seem to me to be perfectly honest and reasonable people who understand love and common respect.  The tragedy is that your doctrine doesn't allow for that. :sad:

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Next you say you believe in grace.  Now let me ask you some questions about this.  Do you believe in unconditional election / reprobation? (that election is not based on foreseen acts, but only on God's will prior to any acts?)  Do you believe in a hypothetical universal atonement that makes every person potentially savable if they perform certain actions?  Do you believe a person can "fall from grace" and loose salvation?  I ask because most people I meet say "grace" but when questioned they don't believe in the true grace of the Bible.



I believe that the grace of God is completely unconditional, and that His salvation is a mystery which is beyond human comprehension.  He saves people by means of their actions, by recreating them in the depths of their heart and creating pure motives in them.  Like you said, faith is a sign of salvation.

However, the difference for me is that I believe salvation is for everyone.  God loves everyone, just as Jesus told Nicodemus, a member of the Sanhedrin!  He even loves the religiously sanctimonious, though not in the way they are looking for (godly approval).  His love is humbling.

If you question my belief on this matter, then read Paul's very own words, again to the Romans.  First, let's put it in context.  He describes how passionately he desires for his own race (those who had pridefully closed their hearts off to Jesus Christ) to be saved:

I speak the truth in Christ — I am not lying, my conscience confirms it in the Holy Spirit — I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, the people of Israel.
Romans 9:1-3

It was these very people who were waiting for any opportunity possible to kill him, but he didn't hold any resentment towards them.  And yet his ministry was towards the Gentiles, for whom he poured out his heart in full.  So what's to keep him from wanting anyone and everyone to be saved?  Well, let's take a look at what he said a little earlier:

Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
Romans 5:18-19

Did you catch that?  The same referents who had fallen through Adam, every single one of them, will be saved through Christ.  Therefore God is for every person and not just some.

Do you also believe that people were predetermined to fall?  Then here's something for you too:

Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Romans 11:30-32

The scriptures are quite clear, however lost and blind people may have distorted them.  Nowhere are we told that some people will be saved and unconditionally loved whereas other people will not. :shake:

I have to say though, if that's what I thought the Bible was preaching, I wouldn't believe in it at all.  My conscience would tell me that God is much more holy than that.

Just my two cents.  Have fun. :laugh:


--------------------
"I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou

"To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald


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Offlinestellar renegade
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7465978 - 09/28/07 10:56 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

One has to wonder how much security one can find in a religion until he gets so sick of the condemnation and hate and constant fear that he begins searching for something else...




It's a closed circuit if you analyze it.
It has the fear inducement and the "salvation"... hard to get out of it this way.
But then again, I really don't have anything against someone's beliefs, no matter how weird they are, as long as they don't try to convert others. This is what really sucks.
To each his own :shrug:



Yeah.

I'm currently reading a book by Rick Joyner which is a vision (one could call it an archetype :hehehe:) wherein much of the church is seen as an army being ridden by demons.  Trailing behind the foremost portions is a huge group of prisoners shackled by snakes called Shame and imprisoned by small demons of Fear.  There are vultures called Depression which, from time to time, land on the prisoners and puke vomit on them.  The vomit is called 'Condemnation' and the prisoners think that it is truth from God.  If any one of the prisoners falls over from weakness, all of the others gather around to beat them with their swords until dead.  Joyner said that after seeing all this he literally felt like dying.  :argh:

It doesn't end so bleak, though, not in the least.  It quickly transitions to those who are realizing what this evil army is doing, climbing a mountain to try to defeat it and to gain higher ground.  Eventually they come to the highest portions (one level is called "Galatians Two Twenty" referring to self-denial) and the atmosphere is so brilliant and refreshing that it gives them new vigor to fight.  The angels Faith, Hope and Love are standing there bigger and brighter than ever, causing everyone for miles around to be attracted to the mountain.  Eventually they find the top where the garden is, which is called "The Unconditional Love of the Father" and people from every walk of life are intoxicated by love and remembering every pleasant memory they ever had on earth. :monkeydance: :rockon:

It simply amazes me the difference between true faith and love and the counterfeit.  I guess it demonstrates the basic principle that the greater a thing is, the worse its abuses will be.  :crying:


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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: stellar renegade]
    #7465997 - 09/28/07 11:09 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Yeah well I'm not really buying that demons - angels stuff either.
I don't think that those who try imprint fear and guilt are "evil"... they are weak and scared themselves.
If we keep on continuing is seeing this world as a battle between evil and good we'll never be able to enjoy our lives.
I think that each of us need a good dose and maybe even a OD on fear, so we never go there again. I know I experienced this anxiety when I was a child, because my parents (especially my mother) are convinced Christians, and hearing all that bull shit, seeing her waste her life on fear, made me feel it too. Until I got sick of it. Simple as that :shrug:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7466116 - 09/29/07 12:34 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
This is your truth, not everybody else's.




Thus says the Lord: "Let not the wise man boast in his wisdom, let not the mighty man boast in his might, let not the rich man boast in his riches, but let him who boasts boast in this, that he understands and knows me, that I am the Lord who practices steadfast love, justice, and righteousness in the earth. For in these things I delight, declares the Lord." Jeremiah 9:23-24


This isn't just my truth. If it were just my truth, I'd keep it to myself.


Proverbs 9:7 He who corrects a mocker invites insult.
He who reproves a wicked man invites abuse.
9:8 Don’t reprove a scoffer, lest he hate you.
Reprove a wise man, and he will love you.


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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: palmersc]
    #7466122 - 09/29/07 12:37 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

"A master knows how it is to be a fool, but a fool has seldom been a master!" -- Some Buddhist dude..


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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7466126 - 09/29/07 12:40 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Many on this thread have stated basically they perceive Christianity as living in a state of fear. Fear is not what motivates a Christian. Christians can never come into judgment. Christians are reconciled to God and know it, this is a source of joy and thanksgiving, not fear. Godly fear is based on reverence, not punishment.


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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: palmersc]
    #7466130 - 09/29/07 12:42 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

No, it is your truth.
Anyone can write a book in the name of god, it doesn't mean anything.
Because that's what the bible is.
There's nothing to attest the existence of god. :shrug:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: fivepointer]
    #7466132 - 09/29/07 12:45 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Godly fear is based on reverence, not punishment.




A god who threatens me with hell is not exactly about love.
Sounds to me more like a frightened human.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: stellar renegade]
    #7466187 - 09/29/07 01:12 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

stellar renegade said:
One has to wonder how much security one can find in a religion until he gets so sick of the condemnation and hate and constant fear that he begins searching for something else... my response is coming up.




The Lord detests evil and condemns those who do not repent. Once you realize it is no joke through personal experience can you begin to appreciate the things we have been freely given.

By conforming to Him, you begin to dislike sin as well. By rebelling against him you await certain destruction. By seeking the truth in earnest, you will find Him.



My path led me to do some crazy things in order to find Him. I put faith in what I thought to be God by being very reckless in order to know truth.

As a few examples, I drove 75 miles without my corrective lenses in unfamiliar territory (20/500 vision), I left my family and jumped on a plane 4000 miles because I was told to do so, and I hitchhiked around and panhandled in San Francisco walking through traffic without looking by relying on faith.

You could say that I'm lucky to be alive, and I ran into so many characters along the way that it would be impossible to describe what exactly went down. You could say God knew I wasn't messing around, and as I was facing my own destruction, he showed me he wasn't either.

God corrects those he loves. If he's not correcting you, I'd be even more afraid.


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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: fivepointer]
    #7466196 - 09/29/07 01:15 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I conformed initially out of fear of punishment. After that it's different, but I'd be lying if I said the fear isn't still there.

Love for Him is growing day by day. Without the Lord I have nothing.


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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: palmersc]
    #7466204 - 09/29/07 01:19 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Love for Him is growing day by day. Without the Lord I have nothing.




How did you reach this conclusion?
What makes you feel that without him you have nothing?
I'm more interested in the actual feeling that you get which influences your process of thought.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7466240 - 09/29/07 01:42 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I am quite sensitive to sin now. I have felt God's correction when I think sinful thoughts. Usually it is a tightening in the chest or gut. When I'm really out of line a sort of familiar panic overcomes me until I repent and get back on track.

"Thy rod and staff they comfort me" It is more like a father discipline his child.



I have seen the power of prayer and it is important that I continue to talk with God. I have not audibly heard his voice yet though.

I am dealing with a particular sin in my life right now. Crossdressing. So many other things have been resolved in my life, but this one keeps resurfacing. It is to the point now where I no longer find pleasure in it, but have thoughts about doing it. For a couple of weeks straight I had extreme anxiety which could be resolved by thinking about dressing, or I could pray and have faith in the Lord and make progress.

We reap what we sow. The fruits of repentance are what I am after because I have seen my entire character begin to shift. Ultimately we seek to grow in Jesus' image. If you invest in the flesh, you reap death because the flesh is ephemeral.

My old ways are being left behind as I grow in the Word. The Word is medicine to my being and frequently praying and opening up to random pages produces responses.

I was after something real that I could feel and have a passion for. What I ran into was not what I expected really, and the truth does indeed set you free.

I prayed on how to answer you and opened to this:

22So with you: Now is your time of grief, but I will see you again and you will rejoice, and no one will take away your joy.23In that day you will no longer ask me anything. I tell you the truth, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 24Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.

25"Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father. 26In that day you will ask in my name. I am not saying that I will ask the Father on your behalf. 27No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God.


Without Jesus we are cut off.

What I'm realizing is that I can't take credit for anything that I did. Why act like I have something that I didn't freely receive?


Edited by palmersc (09/29/07 01:58 AM)


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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: palmersc]
    #7466265 - 09/29/07 02:01 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

I am quite sensitive to sin now. I have felt God's wrath when I think sinful thoughts. Usually it is a tightening in the chest or gut. When I'm really out of line a sort of familiar panic overcomes me until I repent and get back on track.

I have seen the power of prayer and it is important that I continue to talk with God. I have not audibly heard his voice yet though.

I am dealing with a particular sin in my life right now. Crossdressing. So many other things have been resolved in my life, but this one keeps resurfacing. It is to the point now where I no longer find pleasure in it, but have thoughts about doing it. For a couple of weeks straight I had extreme anxiety which could be resolved by thinking about dressing, or I could pray and have faith in the Lord and make progress.




How do you know that what you think is wrong?
What exactly do you find sinful about cross dressing?
And how does praying actually "set you back on track"? To me it sounds like the placebo effect, you think you're doing the "right thing" and then, after you're done, you feel better.
What makes you believe that there's somebody out there (god) who wants you to live YOUR life, the what HE wants? It just doesn't make any sense to me. :shrug:

Quote:

We reap what we sow. The fruits of repentance are what I am after because I have seen my entire character begin to shift. Ultimately we seek to grow in Jesus' image.




And what is Jesus' image? I'm having difficulties understanding the actual description.

The bible itself is very ambiguous and contains lots of contradictions. It is only natural that we find meaning in everything, if we're looking for it. It's called associative mind.
Basically everything that we interact with can have a precedent in our memory, so it's really no miracle in that, it's just a brain function. :shrug:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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OfflineBooby
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: palmersc]
    #7466549 - 09/29/07 07:47 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I'll go out on a limb here and suggest that crossdressing could be linked with mysticism in some way. Everything appears to be black & white, male & female; and the crossdresser, like the homosexual, is a threat to the two-party system. Altho Crossdressers and homo's are considered an abomination to said 'party system' they are in fact desired (like an obsession). Woodsmen and farmers way up north regularly wear women's stockings next to their skin because it keeps their legs and feet warmer than socks alone. Toenail polish originally may have had something to do with blocking the air supply from fungus. So if you feel an unknown pressure to paint your toenails and wear stockings I think you can do so with a clear conscience, and acquiescence from above.


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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Booby]
    #7466775 - 09/29/07 09:36 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Mysticism isn't all Black and White, Monotheism is.


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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7466788 - 09/29/07 09:42 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Trust me, it's much easier to indulge in a fantasy to relieve the anxiety then it is to lean on God and suffer for it.

Crossdressing is stated as being wrong in the Bible. Apart from that it is direct rebellion against the way I was created. I'm a man. You're a woman, and we each have our own roles that God intended us to have.

I have had these thoughts since I was a kid. It seems that I inherited them much the way gays claim to be born that way. For years I chose to indulge in these thoughts. It's a choice I made. They grew in strength and soon I found myself desiring female hormones. This is where I was unwilling to go unless it was God's will, so I picked up the pace on my quest for truth.

I'm trying to let you know how I know apart from scripture what I'm doing is what God wants. I put my faith in finding God. Whatever that be. I ran into the same thing over and over. Jesus is the way.

I'd really be interested in speaking with somebody who has had a psychotic break from reality who has been reconciled through faith in Jesus.

I was in this mental institution for a month, so I may not be the most credible person in many's eyes. All I know is what it feels like to be pursued by the CIA. To have a hit man sitting right next to me. I know what it feels like to have all my friends and family taken away for good, but faith in Jesus kept me alive.

I ran into people who were possessed and were really bent on keeping me there. My psychiatrist certainly did not want me to leave. I escaped.

I remember being out in San Francisco and being able to jump into a flow where I could just follow it and I would inevitably end up where I needed to go. This flow operated on blindly taking steps of faith without fear. But in order to get there, I think you must be willing to not take responsibility for your actions. Perhaps this is the flow that serial killers use and get away with everything until they get scared or lose faith whatever is behind the flow.

Anybody who knows what the flow is is likely a very dangerous person. I was on a path which was quite evil. But in my heart I never lost faith, and every time I was confronted by a situation where I felt overwhelmed, I was comforted by somebody with the Gospel.

So I suffered some more every time I did not fully believe what they were telling me, until finally I was at the end of my rope. You don't know what the end of the rope looks like till you're there. So I chose life through Jesus.


So what it comes down to is we have a choice. Do we want to take responsibility for our choices or not? Are we willing to suffer the consequences? It is quite REAL. The presence of God demands the utmost respect. One day we will all have to answer to God because choosing to ignore him doesn't make him less real.


Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. - Luke 17:23

The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field. When a man found it, he hid it again, and then in his joy went and sold all he had and bought that field. —Matthew 13:44,


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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7466804 - 09/29/07 09:48 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Yeah well I'm not really buying that demons - angels stuff either.



Well I said it was an archetype, at least you could see that?  Have you read up on what an archetype is?

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
I don't think that those who try imprint fear and guilt are "evil"... they are weak and scared themselves.



Well I don't either.  But the army, the dynamic that was involved in keeping them together, was evil.  Not the people themselves.  I would even go so far as to say that the demons - or anything else, for that matter - isn't intrinsically evil.  It's the attitude of mind that is.

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
If we keep on continuing is seeing this world as a battle between evil and good we'll never be able to enjoy our lives.



Amen, I learned that a long time ago.

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
I think that each of us need a good dose and maybe even a OD on fear, so we never go there again. I know I experienced this anxiety when I was a child, because my parents (especially my mother) are convinced Christians, and hearing all that bull shit, seeing her waste her life on fear, made me feel it too. Until I got sick of it. Simple as that :shrug:



Agreed.  It depends on what one is fearful about, though.  Knowing that one has tendencies to hurt others can cause fear in oneself, but relying on God's love can negate that.  There are simply two kinds of fear.  The first is the fear of being punished because of some arbitrary whim, the second is fear because one knows that from an honest standpoint, they are likely to do something rash and violent in their weaker moments.  There is the fear (which is comforting in a deep sense, since one is able to finally realize the truth about themselves and do something about it) which will be eradicated when that person finally lives to be true to themselves and others and God.  Perfect love casts out all fear. :smile: :geordinod:


--------------------
"I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou

"To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald


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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7466826 - 09/29/07 10:00 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

sorry didnt answer your questions:


We live in a culture which is so desensitized to sin, that it can't even feel it. I doubted the existence of sin. But we ALL are hardwired with the law.

The process of coming into alignment with Jesus' character is not something we can do on our own. It is God working through us. Something I don't know a whole lot about yet.

It seems we were both in similar circumstances. Completely unwilling to consider Christianity based on what we've heard about it. If you actually got down on your knees and prayed and asked the Lord to humble you and allow you to see the truth and were persistent you will find the truth.

The Parable of the Persistent Widow


1Then Jesus told his disciples a parable to show them that they should always pray and not give up. 2He said: "In a certain town there was a judge who neither feared God nor cared about men. 3And there was a widow in that town who kept coming to him with the plea, 'Grant me justice against my adversary.'

4"For some time he refused. But finally he said to himself, 'Even though I don't fear God or care about men, 5yet because this widow keeps bothering me, I will see that she gets justice, so that she won't eventually wear me out with her coming!' "

6And the Lord said, "Listen to what the unjust judge says. 7And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off? 8I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?"



If even an unjust judge grants her request, how much more will a righteous God answer?


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InvisibleCracka_X
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: palmersc]
    #7467016 - 09/29/07 11:19 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I know this wasn't directed at me BUT

Quote:

Trust me, it's much easier to indulge in a fantasy to relieve the anxiety then it is to lean on God and suffer for it.



Don't you think you're being a bit bias here? That's kind of insulting saying that everyone else's beliefs, or not even beliefs, fuck beliefs... everyone else's way of life is subordinate or a fantasy as to your perfectly chiseled one??

Quote:


Crossdressing is stated as being wrong in the Bible. Apart from that it is direct rebellion against the way I was created. I'm a man. You're a woman, and we each have our own roles that God intended us to have.




I don't know how old you are but 'God' never wrote down anything about how anyone has to be anything. There's worlds out there that you probably couldn't begin to comprehend and what, you're going to come with your ancient scripture and tell them the 'voice' of God? HAHAHAha, either way, no one will be able to tell you anything because that damn book has all these safeguards against what 'others' might say tosway you away. So, while you've found something that may be great for "You", that's all it ever will be. Some people need religion to stay strong and there's a vast many that don't. Call them sinners and try to convert them but why. Why in the name of everything conceivable would you want everyone to be the same? To me, it sounds like a common thing to relate everyone but everyone isn't the same. Everyone should find out who they really are. Rest your fantasy demons aside, not everyone has the exact same Black and White outlook as you do.

Quote:

If even an unjust judge grants her request, how much more will a righteous God answer?




I never knew God was righteous. Since when does God have to be righteous? Why can't everything be the way it is?


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing


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Offlinepalmersc
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Cracka_X]
    #7467184 - 09/29/07 12:23 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Cracka_X said:
There's worlds out there that you probably couldn't begin to comprehend




OK. Navigate through them at your own peril. To me is sounds like you are doing it while denying God. These worlds are available to those who think themselves to be a god. If you're looking for eternal life, you're wasting your time in Disney World. Enjoy it while it lasts.

It seems pretty popular to say we need to find "our own" "truths" and leave others alone. Real Christians are so bold with "their truth" for a reason. There is no gray area anymore. No more confusion. It's not blind faith.

When they struck gold out in California, people ran out to see for themselves. Here I'm saying look here, and the response is we'll find our own gold. What are you looking for? When you find it how will you know?

Quote:

Cracka_X said:
Some people need religion to stay strong and there's a vast many that don't




Matthew 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.






If I would have gotten a response like this earlier in the year I'd of laughed it off too man. I certainly didn't decide to become more teachable so I don't know how it works.


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: stellar renegade]
    #7467367 - 09/29/07 01:26 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

This is a reply to stellar renegade.

Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Romans 2:9-12 is saying just because you are a Jew God does not consider you any higher or lower than the Gentile, both are held to the same standard, equal before the law. This is quite an offense to the Jews who thought God dealt with them differently than Gentiles.

(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

Romans 2:12-15 Those Gentiles that had never heard the law still have no excuse since they by nature have a knowledge of right from wrong as witnessed by how they act. The Jews who were hearers of the law thought they where justified because God had given them the law, and God held them apart from the Gentile nations. Paul is writing that if a Gentile were to perfectly obey the law they would be justified (of course this is impossible, he is speaking hypothetically). Jews considered Gentiles to be like dirty animals, so this is a big statement against the special standing of a person just because they are a Jew. These verses are not saying that unregenerate men can know God. All are without excuse, either by the law of the Jews, or of the law of the Nations.

Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Romans 10 Paul is saying the Jews had a sincere zeal for the law and diligently tried to keep it. However they completely missed the gospel because since they are ignorant of the perfect righteous standard demanded by God. Sincerity without truth is useless. Christ is the end of the law for all those believing, meaning that only by Christ's righteousness alone can anyone be justified.


stellar renegade said:
"I believe that the grace of God is completely unconditional, and that His salvation is a mystery which is beyond human comprehension. He saves people by means of their actions, by recreating them in the depths of their heart and creating pure motives in them. Like you said, faith is a sign of salvation.

However, the difference for me is that I believe salvation is for everyone. God loves everyone, just as Jesus told Nicodemus, a member of the Sanhedrin! He even loves the religiously sanctimonious, though not in the way they are looking for (godly approval). His love is humbling."


If God loves everyone without exception then grace cannot be unconditional. Since all are loved equally what makes the difference between salvation and damnation? It must be MERITS. The deciding factor of justification becomes what deeds have you performed to activate the salvation. The true gospel does not permit this. You must destroy total depravity in order for this scheme to work. Since if man was totally dead than he couldn't do anything and the scheme fails. God has those He loves and those He hates. Many verses support this.

You quote Romans 5:18-19 and assert that "Did you catch that? The same referents who had fallen through Adam, every single one of them, will be saved through Christ.". So you believe in a universal salvation? That is quite impossible to reconcile with scripture. Romans 5 refers to the Federal headship of all in Adam, and all in Christ. The "all" is not every single person who ever lived. The "all" are all those respectively represented by either Adam or Christ. Since all are condemned in Adam, likewise all who Christ represented are made righteous. People are condemned or justified in thier respective heads, not by personal merits.

You quote Romans 11 to try to justify that God wants to justify everyone without exception. God has blinded the Jews so that the gospel might go out into the Nations. It is God who acts in blinding unblinding. Also the Gentiles had no gospel revelation and were blind previous to the gospel age. It is God who makes these things happen. "O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!"

Luke 10:20-21
In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight. All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

Jesus thanks the Father because gospel truth is either hidden or revealed according to the will of God.


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OfflineBooby
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: palmersc]
    #7467473 - 09/29/07 02:11 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

palmersc said:


I suffered some more every time I did not fully believe what they were telling me,




You suffer for not believing and you suffer even tho you do believe.

I've come across this perspective before, that suffering is 'the object'. I've certainly seen that perspective pitched more than once on this board.


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OfflineBooby
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Middleman]
    #7467493 - 09/29/07 02:22 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Middleman said:
Mysticism isn't all Black and White, Monotheism is.




I admitted to myself that "Treat people the way you want to be treated" contains the element of 'intimidation', and I suppose that opens the door for intimidation as a recourse. You may be right about Monotheism being black& white.


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Offlinea_guy_named_ai
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: fivepointer]
    #7467559 - 09/29/07 02:51 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The scripture declares all ungodly and all fall short of the glory of God. It declares man to be dead in transgressions and blind to God's standard of righteousness. It also says man is blind to these truths due to his innate state of spiritual depravity. The good news is to the ungodly, for those who are made to see their own unrighteousness before the unbending law of God. The good news is only to those who know themselves to be undone and ruined as unrighteous and without hope. The only way to know this is by the convicting power wrought by the Spirit of God on the soul of the dead wretch.




No you're wrong, this is calvinism. They believe that only God can convict a person of sin and bring them back to life, and that sinners are completely helpless to turn to God. This is wrong. The bible teaches that man cannot come to God all on his own, but he can recognise righteousness in his heart in the conscience that God has given him, and then he will be drawn to God by the holy Spirit.

Quote:

This is the first step in the conversion of the unrighteous. You are not able to see yourself as ungodly.




You most surely can. People do it all the time.

Quote:

But the good news is to the ungodly. God convicts the ungodly so that the good news can apply in their consciences.




This is a lie. God convicts the ungodly both through his dealings with man, and through the conscience that God has given them. Man is not helpless to turn to God.

Quote:

He is completely sovereign in bringing the spiritually dead to spiritual life. This quickening comes with power, and the Spirit and the Word of truth is believed.




no, the Spirit comes when the word of truth is believed. The word of Truth IS Spirit, and he dwells in those who receive the Truth.

Quote:

Grace overcomes all transgressions. Grace is the good news. Grace is forgiveness. Grace is love. Grace is gentle. The converted are shown God's grace and are thankful for it. They are completely undeserving of it and they know it. Life is through the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ alone. May you one day know what I am saying. May God bless all those reading this, through Jesus Christ's precious blood alone.




Indeed, may you know also, may you know the grace of God which perfects in righteousness those who are called , not by faith alone but by faith and works.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: fivepointer]
    #7467619 - 09/29/07 03:38 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

You have a problem with the author

I thought an "author" was the person who penned the words. Of course this is hardly true. You imaginary God was not the author of anything.

But of course it's pretty hard for non-existant entities to actually write anything.

This is why I said in my first post this is a good forum for this non-sense. You can pretend to your hearts content and no one will point out that you do not engage in rational or intelligent thinking.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Icelander]
    #7467733 - 09/29/07 04:41 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

icelander, that kind of attack does not delve into rational or intelligent thinking either. You only presuppose God is not real and unrealistically compare God to the tooth fairy without examining the evidence or the possibilty for God.

If you're not willing to consider that there is spiritual evidence, then noone can ever convince you, even if the evidence is right in front of you face.

Romans 1:20


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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7467743 - 09/29/07 04:48 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

You haven't a clue what you are talking about. I was raised Baptist. My father was a deacon, I attended a Baptist Bible Collage for awhile. I worked with a street ministry  and other shit. I have spent many more years considering this question then you have. So you making assumptions is the real problem here.:tongue:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (09/29/07 04:50 PM)


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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Icelander]
    #7467750 - 09/29/07 04:56 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

This sort of thread makes me want to overdose on heroin. I don't want to be in a world with people like you, who have nothing better to do than try really hard to believe that a book was written by anything other than human kind.


--------------------


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #7467780 - 09/29/07 05:12 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I think you mean to reply to someone other then me,as I certainly agree, except about the OD as it really doesn't matter what others think or believe as long as you really believe in your own ability to THINK FOR YOURSELF


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (09/29/07 05:13 PM)


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Offlinea_guy_named_ai
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Icelander]
    #7467897 - 09/29/07 05:59 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Nevertheless, presuppositions have no place in a conversation or debate. If you have them, you must explain them. Blanket statements like "God is the same as santa clause" don't add anything worthwhile to a debate or discussion.


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OfflineBooby
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7467905 - 09/29/07 06:02 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Debate is for the philosophy forum. Here anyone can suppose anything and not defend it.


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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7467956 - 09/29/07 06:23 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

jonathan_206 said:
Nevertheless, presuppositions have no place in a conversation or debate. If you have them, you must explain them. Blanket statements like "God is the same as santa clause" don't add anything worthwhile to a debate or discussion.




Ever notice that the original post is nothing but presupposition?:tongue:

I never knew that God and Santa were the same but it makes sense.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinea_guy_named_ai
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Booby]
    #7467988 - 09/29/07 06:37 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Even if that's true, a brief explanation would be proper.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7467997 - 09/29/07 06:41 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

:lol:
This is probably the funniest thing I read today


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: palmersc]
    #7468031 - 09/29/07 06:57 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Trust me, it's much easier to indulge in a fantasy to relieve the anxiety then it is to lean on God and suffer for it.

Crossdressing is stated as being wrong in the Bible. Apart from that it is direct rebellion against the way I was created. I'm a man. You're a woman, and we each have our own roles that God intended us to have.

I have had these thoughts since I was a kid. It seems that I inherited them much the way gays claim to be born that way. For years I chose to indulge in these thoughts. It's a choice I made. They grew in strength and soon I found myself desiring female hormones. This is where I was unwilling to go unless it was God's will, so I picked up the pace on my quest for truth.

I'm trying to let you know how I know apart from scripture what I'm doing is what God wants. I put my faith in finding God. Whatever that be. I ran into the same thing over and over. Jesus is the way.




This doesn't make sense in so many ways :rolleyes:
Ok... for the sake of the argument, let's say that god exists.
And that he really doesn't want you to cross dress. Though you'd think that someone as evolved and gos is presumed to be, would be over this sexual blaming phase.
Well he created all, he gave us Free Will and left us with all the possible choices open for us on the table.
Now hare he comes and days: you'd better not choose alternative B, C, D and basically any other than A. Otherwise, you'll have to pay. I'll punish you with hell. :nono: Believe me, it's for your own good.
This sounds like a gangsta god if you ask me. :shrug: Asking for protection tax. Meaning he's the one who offers you "evil", and he's also the one who "saves" you from it. :what:
I mean, what more can you want? Here you have god for you. How can he be the good and loving god when he behaves like a total bitch?
Can you please explain this to me?

Quote:

So what it comes down to is we have a choice. Do we want to take responsibility for our choices or not? Are we willing to suffer the consequences? It is quite REAL. The presence of God demands the utmost respect. One day we will all have to answer to God because choosing to ignore him doesn't make him less real.




Well, this relates to the above questions.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: stellar renegade]
    #7468046 - 09/29/07 07:03 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Well I said it was an archetype, at least you could see that? Have you read up on what an archetype is?




Yes, I know what an archetype is, that's exactly who I specified they're not real. They are projections of our own mind. Many people take them for real.

Quote:

Well I don't either. But the army, the dynamic that was involved in keeping them together, was evil. Not the people themselves. I would even go so far as to say that the demons - or anything else, for that matter - isn't intrinsically evil. It's the attitude of mind that is.




The army is the generic name for a group of people who are trained to fight. Therefore, you can say that the army is the people... it doesn't make any sense to state that the army people are not evil, but the army is, since army is just a symbol representing those people.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Offlinea_guy_named_ai
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Icelander]
    #7468060 - 09/29/07 07:12 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I recognize that, but I recognized it as an opening statement, whereupon he would explain more (when people challange him).


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Offlinea_guy_named_ai
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7468070 - 09/29/07 07:16 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I by no way recognise this guy as Christian, and I really don't like to fight other people's battles, so I'm out of here.


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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7468092 - 09/29/07 07:25 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

:bye:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7468110 - 09/29/07 07:31 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

jonathan_206 said:
I by no way recognise this guy as Christian, and I really don't like to fight other people's battles, so I'm out of here.




Take your rotten gospel of salvation by works with you.


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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: fivepointer]
    #7468121 - 09/29/07 07:35 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Hit the road Jack, and don't you come back no more no more :lol:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Offlinestellar renegade
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7468242 - 09/29/07 08:08 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

Well I don't either. But the army, the dynamic that was involved in keeping them together, was evil. Not the people themselves. I would even go so far as to say that the demons - or anything else, for that matter - isn't intrinsically evil. It's the attitude of mind that is.




The army is the generic name for a group of people who are trained to fight. Therefore, you can say that the army is the people... it doesn't make any sense to state that the army people are not evil, but the army is, since army is just a symbol representing those people.



No, I would question the linguistics of that.  The word 'army' could also refer to the actions of that body of people and their state of mind, as you are talking about both a group of people with the presupposition of a unifying factor, and an army, which has a specific agenda or at least a unifying purpose.

Anyway, at least you know what I mean. :wink:


--------------------
"I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou

"To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald


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Offlinestellar renegade
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: fivepointer]
    #7468336 - 09/29/07 08:37 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Romans 2:9-12 is saying just because you are a Jew God does not consider you any higher or lower than the Gentile, both are held to the same standard, equal before the law. This is quite an offense to the Jews who thought God dealt with them differently than Gentiles.



And God doesn't consider saved people any higher or lower than unsaved. No one inherently deserves anything.

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Romans 2:12-15 Those Gentiles that had never heard the law still have no excuse since they by nature have a knowledge of right from wrong as witnessed by how they act. The Jews who were hearers of the law thought they where justified because God had given them the law, and God held them apart from the Gentile nations. Paul is writing that if a Gentile were to perfectly obey the law they would be justified (of course this is impossible, he is speaking hypothetically). Jews considered Gentiles to be like dirty animals, so this is a big statement against the special standing of a person just because they are a Jew. These verses are not saying that unregenerate men can know God. All are without excuse, either by the law of the Jews, or of the law of the Nations.



How can a person turn to God without becoming good?

Quote:

fivepointer said:
If God loves everyone without exception then grace cannot be unconditional. Since all are loved equally what makes the difference between salvation and damnation? It must be MERITS. The deciding factor of justification becomes what deeds have you performed to activate the salvation. The true gospel does not permit this. You must destroy total depravity in order for this scheme to work. Since if man was totally dead than he couldn't do anything and the scheme fails. God has those He loves and those He hates. Many verses support this.



What on earth...? The first statement doesn't make any sense to me, and the rest is a straw man. The very last statement is just... errgh.

Quote:

fivepointer said:
You quote Romans 5:18-19 and assert that "Did you catch that? The same referents who had fallen through Adam, every single one of them, will be saved through Christ.". So you believe in a universal salvation? That is quite impossible to reconcile with scripture. Romans 5 refers to the Federal headship of all in Adam, and all in Christ. The "all" is not every single person who ever lived. The "all" are all those respectively represented by either Adam or Christ. Since all are condemned in Adam, likewise all who Christ represented are made righteous. People are condemned or justified in thier respective heads, not by personal merits.



If you say so.

Quote:

fivepointer said:
You quote Romans 11 to try to justify that God wants to justify everyone without exception. God has blinded the Jews so that the gospel might go out into the Nations. It is God who acts in blinding unblinding. Also the Gentiles had no gospel revelation and were blind previous to the gospel age. It is God who makes these things happen. "O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!"



I'm not sure I ever want to talk to you again.

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Luke 10:20-21
In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight. All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

Jesus thanks the Father because gospel truth is either hidden or revealed according to the will of God.



...to babes, not to scholars. To children with a simple heart, not to those who make up complicated doctrine to twist the words of scripture.

I'm out, man. I'm just, totally, out.

We can't even debate this here, and what you're saying, it all adds up to bunk.

Have fun. Later.


--------------------
"I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou

"To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: stellar renegade]
    #7468437 - 09/29/07 09:07 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

And take your universalism with you on your way out.


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Offlinepalmersc
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7468452 - 09/29/07 09:15 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I am still new in the word, so I have much to learn. What I do know is that it is real, but this was revealed to me in a way I can't describe. I need to work on relaying the message.

I may not be a good representative of God right now, but know that He loves those who want to get to know him. He demands respect though. Nothing wrong with questioning it.

We must understand that we are not dreaming up some ideal God. This is the God of the universe. He is holy, perfect and justified in all He does. His wisdom is far beyond ours.

I'm not sure how to make you feel good about being on the receiving end of God's wrath. There's just no getting around it, so it is wise to heed to His warnings.

I'm not just making stuff up, but I still don't expect anybody to change their minds. May God present Himself to those willing to hear.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: fivepointer]
    #7468537 - 09/29/07 09:42 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
And take your universalism with you on your way out.




Such a hateful Christian. :nono:
Or is it a tautology? :smirk:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7468585 - 09/29/07 09:54 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
as long as they don't try to convert others. This is what really sucks.




Resistance is futile.....    :borg:


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #7468624 - 09/29/07 10:09 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Viva la revolution amigo  :pirate:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisibleCracka_X
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7468657 - 09/29/07 10:21 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

oh, the internet is beautiful. where this thread went is awesome!


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing


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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Cracka_X]
    #7468694 - 09/29/07 10:36 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Sail away :smirk:



Or something :smirk:

:lol:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: fivepointer]
    #7470530 - 09/30/07 01:43 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Quote:

jonathan_206 said:
I by no way recognise this guy as Christian, and I really don't like to fight other people's battles, so I'm out of here.




Take your rotten gospel of salvation by works with you.




Now, now fivepointer. Lets not get huffy.:rofl2::hellfire::rofl2::hellfire:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7470535 - 09/30/07 01:45 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

fivepointer said:
And take your universalism with you on your way out.




Such a hateful Christian. :nono:
Or is it a tautology? :smirk:




Hate and fear! The mark of the Godly.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinea_guy_named_ai
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: fivepointer]
    #7470620 - 09/30/07 02:14 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Take your rotten gospel of salvation by works with you.





Now you have attacked the gospel. It's not of works, you calvinists just won't accept this. It is the grace of God that saves us, but that same grace works in us to perfect us in righteousness. Those that walk (Work) by the spirit, will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. But if you walk contrary to the Spirit, God will not abide in you. Always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. You won't accept this even when the Word of God tells you plain and clear:

Quote:

14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.




The pagans will probably grasp this before you do. It's really sad when non Christians understand the Word better than those who profess to be Christians.

I didn't want to get into an arguement with you, calvinists argue in circles, never grasping their own presuppositions which they read into God's word. They do not know how to rightly divide the word of truth, and more than anything it is obvious to all that the Love of God does not abide in them.

Here is a letter I wrote to a calvinist. Not everything in it need apply to you, but it does well to prove my point.

Quote:

Hi calvinist-,

It's appreciated that you answered so quick. Perhaps what you meant when you said that you don't see yourself in any denomination is that you believe so strongly that your denomination is right that it is the Truth?

Like I said before, I am in an extreme minority and I'm looking for people that share my views, that we can be together through this evil . I'm going to share some things with you that I'm sure you've never heard before, or at least not the way I am going to present them to you.

I've argued with a lot of argumentative and abusive people who are not walking in the same love they preach. I am sure also that you have come across many abusive people pushing their beliefs and speaking in or acting in a way that is ungodly. My goal here is to convince you, and I hope I do. I don't ask you to be unbiased (which is practically impossible) but I do ask you to really think upon the things to follow.


I remember I was living in my own apartment a while back, and I had no friends. I was hungry for the Truth, and yet I still had many misunderstandings and bad habits and thoughts. I would go online and go to this website and argue with others in a reformed protestant (mostly) Christian forum. Though my arguments did have some good points, I didn't have the right understanding or the right attitude. I found myself faced with questions that were very hard to consider. for instance, children being massacred along with others in the wars israel fought in the desert with Moses.

Some of the calvinists on the website did make some points, which although didn't fit with an overwhelming amount of scripture, still attacked my faith, and because of my lack of understanding challanged me in a way I wasn't prepared for.

I know I'm very young still, but I hope the doctrine I present to you you'll consider nevertheless.

Alot of my misunderstanding had to do with what grace was. We hear the word over and over again, much like many Christian "isms", but so many don't understand. Most of the time, what people recieve from the preacher behind the pulpit is so subtle that many receive untrue doctrine without understanding. I believe this is because it is just as God's word predicted, that people would have itching ears. Ultimately it starts with the heart.

I could count many many verses that I'm sure you've heard before that people quote to condtradict calvinism, esp. limited atonement. They're right, at least for the most part. But their understanding is flawed also.

I was honest with myself and recognised their was a contradiction from what I believed and from what others were pointing out in scripture. I realized I had a lack of understanding and so I searched God's word to make sense of things. I never did believe in eternal security, although I was deceived for a very short time a while ago. I never agreed with the calvinists, but I did have doubts and my faith was attacked because of my lack of understanding.


I always believed that man had free will. I still do, but before I believed that man could come to God ALL on his own. I didn't really know all of scripture, but this I was sure of, and I as well as others had many verses to defend the belief in free will. But the calvinists pointed out some scripture and said man doesn't have any say in the matter, and it's all up to God. I was puzzled.


Jesus had just fed five thousand men, and he then had walked across the water to the other side of the sea of Galilee. The next day the people couldn't find him so they got into a ship and went to the other side. When they found him Jesus said " Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled". He then tells them to seek the food that edures to everlasting life. He tells them that he is the bread of life. He then says:

Quote:

"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me." (John 6:37:38)




You might be suprised, but I agree with this verse. All that the Father gives him noone will be cast out.

He tells them not to murmur amoung themselves, and then says:

Quote:

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. 46Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father." (John 44:46)




He then tells thme they need to eat his flesh and drink his blood. The people, being blinded, didn't understand him, and MANY of his deciples left him.

Then after this He says :


Quote:

"65And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. 67Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? 68Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 69And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. 70Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? "




Now I know perhaps what you're thinking, that this doesn't contradict what you believe at all. Jesus said be careful how you hear. I looked over that verse and I accepted that only those who are drawn to Jesus can be saved. But it's the deceit of the devil working in the calvinist doctrine. for many, once they are taken in this point, they cave in. But that's not the end you see. In the verses before Jesus said:

Quote:

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me"




Look what is says. Everyone who hears, and learns from the Father comes to him. I had a good idea what, but I kept it in my mind and kept studying.

I kept it in my mind until I came to John chapter 14. He is telling his desciples that he's going to that Father, and that he will send them the Holy Spirit, and that he will come to thme and comfort them. He says:

Quote:

" 15If ye love me, keep my commandments"

" 21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. "




and then Judas asked him how he was going to manifest himself to them and not to the rest of the world. And what he says in the next verse is essentially the same thing he just said:

Quote:

" Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me."





SO here is the answer to the previous question. What does a person have to hear and learn from the Father? His word. God's commandments. Righteousness.

A man receives God's righteousness in his heart, and is drawn to God. He hears the word and believes in and obeys the gospel receiving salvation.

Think about it. So many people wish to go to heaven. They study the bible and go to church and sing hymns and say they love God. SO many people, and so many divisions, and sects, and chaos and confusion. It's been 2000 years, and after all this time, people havn't come to a understanding amoung themselves of the word of God.

That's because the word of God is spiritually discerned. You can study all you want, but ultimately, the real matter is in the heart.

So John chapter 14 tells us how to become saved. And John chapter 15 tells how to stay saved.

Quote:

" 1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. "




The Father takes away every branch in The Lord that does not bear fruit. What are the branches? That's you or me if we abide in him.

Quote:

"Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me."




We can have no spiritual fruit without Him. Without him, we can do nothing.

What happens if we don't abide in him then? I remember I asked you this question. Here is the answer:

Quote:

" 6If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. "




If I, being a branch abiding in Christ do not abide in him I am cast into the fire and burned. This is in complete exact accordance with what John the baptist said from the very beginning:

Quote:

" 10And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire." (Math 3:10)




Jesus tells us to continue in his love. He says:

Quote:

" 10If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. "




Can you see it? I hope you can. Many many people have read this verse, but have never seen it. Keep God's commandments and you will abide in his love. I've sure you've heard people preach of the simplicity in Christ. Just believe and be saved? There is a simplicity (not a worldly simplicity), the same simplicity Jesus mentioned in praying and praising God:

Quote:

" 25At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

26Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. "




It's not just believe. It's believe and obey. That is the true simplicity in Christ. There is so much more, but this is what Jesus came to die on the tree for. To save us from sin and death, and manifest God's righteousness and love in us.

I've heard others talk about salvation speaking of God's righteousness rather than our own righteousness. It seems this is particularly a hot topic to the calvinist. I want to tell you our right, that those arguements once again are both flawed.

This is a misunderstanding of God's grace.

This is another word you hear among Christians very often. But once again, it is something so little understand.

Here are a couple defenitions of grace:

1828 dictionary defenition: " The favorable influence of God in renewing the heart and restraining from sin.."

Strongs # 5485 khar'-ece: Graciousness (as gratifying) of manner or act (abstr. or conr., lit. fig, or spiritual; esp the divine influence upon the heart and it's reflection in the life; including gratitude."

Grace is God's power working in our life, teaching us, guiding us, building us up, leading us into righteousness, perfecting us, sanctifying those that trust and obey in him:


" Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God..

Quote:

17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)"




The gift of righteousness.

Quote:

" 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." eph 2:10

" 14Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works." titus 2:14

" 32And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified." acts 20:32

"11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world " (titus 2:11-12)

" That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. " (Romans 5:21)




It’s just as Paul said:


Quote:

“But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.” (1 Cor. 15:10)





God does require us to work hard and strive to salvation. He does ask us to obey him and love others. God will judge everyone by their words, and by their works. He holds us all accountable. And when God holds you accountable, it’s your responsibility to live up to the standard God has set for you to follow. But it’s always God who gives us the strength to bear spiritual fruit, and you can only have True love from God. Isn’t everything we have from God anyway? We are fully dependant on him.

The standard is Jesus Christ. The standard is perfection. Jesus said it himself.

Quote:

“ Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. ” (Matt 5:48)

“ Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you. “ ( 2 cor. 13:11)

“ But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. “ (1 John 2:5)





calvinist, I have a lot more I would like to share with you but I will wait. I will tell you this. There are many false churches and many false doctrines, but the bible doesn’t speak about all of them. There is one that Peter in went to great length to condemn. It is the false doctrine of eternal security. It is protestants and evangelicals who deny the Lord who bought them. It is false Christians who cast away God’s righteousness.

Quote:

“ For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
19While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage”




They all promise them freedom in Christ, but it is a false freedom. Their consciences are seared with a hot iron, and they deny in willing ignorance the standard of righteousness required from the Lord They profess as theirs. But they are bastards, for they have all cast off the Father’s instruction.

It is so evil that the apostle John spoke this way concerning them:

Quote:

“Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds. “




I hope you understand. I really hope you do. I tell you that I have changed so much, and my old understanding is like a black stain, and my new like a shining lamp, growing brighter and brighter each day. I received this understanding from God, and I have changed very much, and my life will change even more.

I hope you can receive these words, and I hope you love the Truth so much that you’re willing to seek it with all your heart, and all your soul, and all your strength, and all your mind. Because if you don’t, you will perish.

I might have missed some things, but I hope to converse more with you. I will pray that God will open your heart and eyes to receive this. I’m sure you have objections and things to say if you have read all of this, and I’m fairly certain I can find answers to them. And it is my sincerest hope for all men, and you,
Quote:


“that He would grant you, according to (A)the riches of His glory, to be (B)strengthened with power through His Spirit in (C)the inner man, so that (D)Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being (E)rooted and (F)grounded in love,
may be able to comprehend with (G)all the saints what is (H)the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know (I)the love of Christ which (J)surpasses knowledge, that you may be (K)filled up to all the (L)fullness of God.
(M)Now to Him who is (N)able to do far more abundantly beyond all that we ask or think, (O)according to the power that works within us,
(P)to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations forever and ever. Amen.” (Eph 3:16-21)




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OfflineBooby
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7470675 - 09/30/07 02:34 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Can we agree to disagree?

Jesus talked about God and then people start saying that Jesus is God and that His mother is the Mother of God but Jesus never claimed so.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Booby]
    #7470717 - 09/30/07 02:49 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

This thread needs more  :drumming:
And some  :protest:  :lol:
Also some  :bigblunt:  :xtc:  :lsd:
A little more  :pinkelephant:  :celery:  :tomato:
And of course,  :uptosomething:
There it's all good now :yesnod:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7470732 - 09/30/07 02:53 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

jonathan_206 said:
Quote:

Take your rotten gospel of salvation by works with you.




Now you have attacked the gospel. It's not of works, you calvinists just won't accept this. It is the grace of God that saves us, but that same grace works in us to perfect us in righteousness. Those that walk (Work) by the spirit, will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. But if you walk contrary to the Spirit, God will not abide in you. Always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. You won't accept this even when the Word of God tells you plain and clear:




You are the one that has attacked the gospel. Christian theology is 100% grace, what you call "calvinism". I NEVER said salvation was by works, ever! You are the one that brings that teaching, not me, see your quote:

"Indeed, may you know also, may you know the grace of God which perfects in righteousness those who are called, not by faith alone but by faith and works. "

According to your theology justification is contingent on your maintaining good works. Correct me if I'm wrong on this. This is salvation by works. It is very similar to Romanism. Rome teaches your theology of cooperative grace bringing in salvation. What happens if you fail to keep these good works? Do you loose your justification?

Good works are a result of the gift, they are not a cause of the gift being given. You have put the cart before the horse.

Arminian doctrine is from the pits of darkness with its roots in Rome.


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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Booby]
    #7470750 - 09/30/07 02:59 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Jesus talked about God and then people start saying that Jesus is God and that His mother is the Mother of God but Jesus never claimed so.




Jesus claimed to be God, it's plain and clear. I don't know how you can say that. Go do a search on the internet. It's not even worth argueing.


I agree that we disagree.


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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: fivepointer]
    #7470790 - 09/30/07 03:08 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

fivepointer:

Quote:

You are the one that has attacked the gospel. Christian theology is 100% grace, what you call "calvinism". I NEVER said salvation was by works, ever! You are the one that brings that
teaching, not me, see your quote:




No, your gospel in not the gospel. You said my gospel was works based which it is not.

Quote:

"Indeed, may you know also, may you know the grace of God which perfects in righteousness those who are called, not by faith alone but by faith and works. "




That's right faith and works, just as scripture says as it clearly points out above.

Quote:

According to your theology justification is contingent on your maintaining good works. Correct me if I'm wrong on this. This is salvation by works. It is very similar to Romanism. Rome teaches your theology of cooperative grace bringing in salvation. What happens if you fail to keep these good works? Do you loose your justification?




Wrong! Grace is given to us freely, but we frustrate that grace when we do not walk according to the Spirit. This requires us to work. We don't work to receive the grace, we work to abide in the grace after it has been given. You follow darkness and expect to abide in light? That's right you lose your justification for not abiding in the grace God has FREELY given you.
Quote:


Good works are a result of the gift, they are not a cause of the gift being given. You have put the cart before the horse.




If you could see , you would realize I believe that good works are the result of the gift as I pointed out above .

Quote:

Arminian doctrine is from the pits of darkness with its roots in Rome


.

So typical. Everyone who does not agree with a calvinist is an arminian or catholic. Even according to arminian doctrine I am not an arminian, neither am I catholic by any means.

And I noticed you didn't even respond to my arguement.


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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7470896 - 09/30/07 03:30 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

IT'S A HOLY WAR!!!!


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing


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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Cracka_X]
    #7470907 - 09/30/07 03:33 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Holy? :smirk:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7470968 - 09/30/07 03:54 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

jonathan_206 said:


Jesus claimed to be God,




If jesus is the son of God, and mary is the mother of God, then I think it is plainly clear that neither of them were or is God (or even claimed to be). Agree?


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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7470993 - 09/30/07 04:01 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

jonathan_206 said:
fivepointer:

Quote:

According to your theology justification is contingent on your maintaining good works. Correct me if I'm wrong on this. This is salvation by works. It is very similar to Romanism. Rome teaches your theology of cooperative grace bringing in salvation. What happens if you fail to keep these good works? Do you loose your justification?



Quote:


Wrong! Grace is given to us freely, but we frustrate that grace when we do not walk according to the Spirit. This requires us to work. We don't work to receive the grace, we work to abide in the grace after it has been given. You follow darkness and expect to abide in light? That's right you lose your justification for not abiding in the grace God has FREELY given you.




Justification isn’t free if it comes with conditions to maintain it. You stated yourself that you must work to stay in grace. What righteousness makes you just with God? According to you its Christ plus what you do that makes you just. Will God accept less than perfect? No. Your best works could never have ANY part in justification since they are not done perfectly. You have created a religion of self-righteousness that is alien to scripture.

How do you ever know if your justified? Isn't assurance an impossibility? How do you know you are good enough? How can you give thanks and have joy without assurance?


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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Booby]
    #7471037 - 09/30/07 04:14 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

booby:

Quote:


If jesus is the son of God, and mary is the mother of God, then I think it is plainly clear that neither of them were or is God (or even claimed to be). Agree?




No, because the bible clearly points out that being the son of God is the same as saying he is God. Go look at John chapter 14 and you will notice that he shows that he is one with the father and the holy Spirit. Jesus is the Spirit of God. He is the living word, the spiritual word by which all things were created, given life and on earth a fleshly body, by which we no longer know him. There are many other references I can show you including people openly worshipping him as God, proclaiming him as God, and Jesus concurring. Jesus being called everlasting father, mighty God, HOLY ONE etc. Mary was not his true mother, the bible clearly points out that he was begotten by the holy Spirit and placed in Mary's womb.


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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7471053 - 09/30/07 04:21 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:


Quote:


fivepointer:

Quote:
According to your theology justification is contingent on your maintaining good works. Correct me if I'm wrong on this. This is salvation by works. It is very similar to Romanism. Rome teaches your theology of cooperative grace bringing in salvation. What happens if you fail to keep these good works? Do you loose your justification?





jonathan:

Quote:

Wrong! Grace is given to us freely, but we frustrate that grace when we do not walk according to the Spirit. This requires us to work. We don't work to receive the grace, we work to abide in the grace after it has been given. You follow darkness and expect to abide in light? That's right you lose your justification for not abiding in the grace God has FREELY given you.









Quote:

Justification isn’t free if it comes with conditions to maintain it. You stated yourself that you must work to stay in grace. What righteousness makes you just with God? According to you its Christ plus what you do that makes you just. Will God accept less than perfect? No. Your best works could never have ANY part in justification since they are not done perfectly. You have created a religion of self-righteousness that is alien to scripture.




Grace is freely given from the beginning. If someone hands you a gift, a gift that works to perfect you in righteousness, and you cast away that gift by not walking in righteousness, then that is you rejecting the free gift. God's grace requires your cooperation. No, God will not accept less than perfect. And that's why God's grace works with us and in us to maintain perfection and good works and to abide in love. It's not my righteousness, it's the righteousness of God working in me, strengthening me, giving me the power to conquer sin and abide in righteousness.

Quote:

How do you ever know if your justified? Isn't assurance an impossibility? How do you know you are good enough? How can you give thanks and have joy without assurance?





Quote:

“ But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. “ (1 John 2:5)




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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7471060 - 09/30/07 04:23 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

jonathan_206 said:


No, because the bible clearly points out that being the son of God is the same as saying he is God.




That's like claiming to be the mother of God is the same as saying she is God.

The only way Mary could be Mother of God and Jesus Son of God is if she was "impregnated" by her son the brother of Jesus which would rightly make her the grandmother of Jesus and Jesus the son of his brother who impregnated his mother. This is all legitimate with gods you know.


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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7471091 - 09/30/07 04:36 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

"Grace is freely given from the beginning. If someone hands you a gift, a gift that works to perfect you in righteousness, and you cast away that gift by not walking in righteousness, then that is you rejecting the free gift. God's grace requires your cooperation. No, God will not accept less than perfect. And that's why God's grace works with us and in us to maintain perfection and good works and to abide in love. It's not my righteousness, it's the righteousness of God working in me, strengthening me, giving me the power to conquer sin and abide in righteousness."

You are saying you are able to "maintain perfection". So if you have a bad day and slip up how do you get back to a justified condition?


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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: fivepointer]
    #7471241 - 09/30/07 05:33 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

booby:


Quote:

Quote:
jonathan_206 said:


No, because the bible clearly points out that being the son of God is the same as saying he is God.






Quote:

That's like claiming to be the mother of God is the same as saying she is God.




No, because Mary was never the Spirit of God. Jesus as the word has always been the Spirit of God. He is the son of God, but not as you and I are the son or daughter of our fathers. With us, we have a physical seed, but with God, it is a spiritual seed, that is his Spirit. Jesus as the Word was given sentience, a will, consciousness,and became the son of God , for he was begotten directly by God in the Spirit. Mary's giving birth to Jesus has absolutely no impact upon her being or not being God.


Quote:

The only way Mary could be Mother of God and Jesus Son of God is if she was "impregnated" by her son the brother of Jesus which would rightly make her the grandmother of Jesus and Jesus the son of his brother who impregnated his mother. This is all legitimate with gods you know.




That's outrageous. And you're wrong even by you're own logic. I can see at least one mistake. It wouldn't make here the grandmother. It would make her sick in the head. But it's all irrelevant as shown above.


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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7471266 - 09/30/07 05:43 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

LOL.

Every book in the old testament is a separate perspective of a prophet. The New Testament is no more than another book added to the list.


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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7471277 - 09/30/07 05:47 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:


jonathan:

Quote:

"Grace is freely given from the beginning. If someone hands you a gift, a gift that works to perfect you in righteousness, and you cast away that gift by not walking in righteousness, then that is you rejecting the free gift. God's grace requires your cooperation. No, God will not accept less than perfect. And that's why God's grace works with us and in us to maintain perfection and good works and to abide in love. It's not my righteousness, it's the righteousness of God working in me, strengthening me, giving me the power to conquer sin and abide in righteousness."




fivepointer:

Quote:

You are saying you are able to "maintain perfection". So if you have a bad day and slip up how do you get back to a justified condition?








We don't slip up.


Quote:

6Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

10In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.




If I stumble, it is no longer me that sins, but sin that abides in me, in my flesh. My Spirit is redeemed in Christ, but this flesh is cursed, and subject to corruption. Those who abide in Christ persevere and fight against sin in the world and in the flesh, until we are redeemed with new Spiritual bodies:

Quote:

14For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

15For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.




If anyone who has known the grace of God truly slips up, there is no more hope of salvation:

Quote:


26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.




Edited by jonathan_206 (09/30/07 05:56 PM)


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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7471295 - 09/30/07 05:55 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:



LOL.

Every book in the old testament is a separate perspective of a prophet. The New Testament is no more than another book added to the list.




Every prophets testimony must be validated by his prophecies coming true. It would do you well to study all the amazing prophecies in the bible that had been prophecied hundreds of years before, (sometimes even thousands) which have been confirmed.

and not every book in the old testament is a seperate perspective of a prophet that's not true.

The fact of the matter is that the bible is history, and it is the most verified historical record we have in the world. It has 24,000 + pieces of manuscript, and more and more artifacts confirm the bible veracity. The other runner up is the Illyad with a mere 400 or so If I remember correctly manuscripts.

I wish more people even knew what textual criticism is.


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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7471299 - 09/30/07 05:58 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

You can never rest. Remember one slip up and your toast. You can't see this scheme is salvation by works? Works are a result of the new heart that was freely given, free as in no strings either to obtain or maintain it. The new heart evidences itself in how someone acts. The acts themselves have no saving value, they are the result of what has been freely given. You have put the order of things in reverse.

If someone claims to be a Christian, and has no change in how they act, that person didn't loose salvation, they never had salvation in the first place.


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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7471415 - 09/30/07 06:49 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Holy? :smirk:




Holy Crap War?


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing


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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7471606 - 09/30/07 07:50 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

jonathan_206 said:

The fact of the matter is that the bible is history, and it is the most verified historical record we have in the world.




:rofl2:

I'd lock this thread, but it's just too entertaining...


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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Middleman]
    #7471780 - 09/30/07 08:26 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

i got this picture from a certain someone, cough cough and yeah, I feel it.



--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing


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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7472692 - 10/01/07 01:44 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

If you have dreams pertinent to this conversation, I'm interested to hear them.


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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: fivepointer]
    #7472845 - 10/01/07 03:26 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Is a 'good' deed, done from mal intention a 'bad' deed in the end ?
So is it only discernable in the intention which lies behind the deed ?
I don't know, as for me the means are what justifies the end, not vice versa.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: fivepointer]
    #7472922 - 10/01/07 04:55 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Mods need power to give people IV DMT Hcl. Talk to me about god after you have broken through.


--------------------


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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #7473003 - 10/01/07 06:46 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
Is a 'good' deed, done from mal intention a 'bad' deed in the end ?
So is it only discernable in the intention which lies behind the deed ?
I don't know, as for me the means are what justifies the end, not vice versa.




Is pushing someone over the edge of a cliff just to be able to pull them back to safety a good or a bad deed?

I think it teaches them to stay away from you.

(This analogy really doesn't do justice to the topic but it's the best I could come up with)


Edited by Booby (10/01/07 06:58 AM)


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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Middleman]
    #7473131 - 10/01/07 08:36 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Middleman said:
Quote:

jonathan_206 said:

The fact of the matter is that the bible is history, and it is the most verified historical record we have in the world.




:rofl2:

I'd lock this thread, but it's just too entertaining...




:rofl2::monkeydance: True, that quote  is really priceless. I might have to add that to my sig.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #7474635 - 10/01/07 04:34 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Visionary Tools said:
Mods need power to give people IV DMT Hcl. Talk to me about god after you have broken through.



I have had my fair share of psychedelic experiences, and I never did less then heroic doses. These can make you think you know a lot of things about God, and the universe. However I now know all those notions were not real. The truth has been revealed to me by the Holy Spirit revealing the Word which reveals the true God and eternal life.


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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #7474697 - 10/01/07 05:00 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Visionary Tools said:
Mods need power to give people IV DMT Hcl.




OOOoooOOooooo....!  A phychedelic DMT ban-stick.....  :strokebeard:

:epileptic:  :voila:

Yes sir, I vote "YES" on that one.....    :smile:


>^;;^<


--------------------
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>^;;^<


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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: fivepointer]
    #7474967 - 10/01/07 06:24 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Why aren't more on here reaching the same conclusion?


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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: palmersc]
    #7475254 - 10/01/07 07:48 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

fivepointer, how can you be so certain that the truth which has now been revealed to you by the holy spirit is any more true than what you learned from psychedelics? How was the truth revealed to you? Through prayer?

apologies if you've already addressed this, I haven't looked through the entire thread


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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: fivepointer]
    #7475825 - 10/01/07 10:47 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Quote:

Visionary Tools said:
Mods need power to give people IV DMT Hcl. Talk to me about god after you have broken through.



I have had my fair share of psychedelic experiences, and I never did less then heroic doses.  These can make you think you know a lot of things about God, and the universe.  However I now know all those notions were not real. The truth has been revealed to me by the Holy Spirit revealing the Word which reveals the true God and eternal life.



From one trip :mushroom2: to another :sheesha:...?

I would feel more sympathetic to your view if you at least saw God as the force of blind fate.  But to you there's a particular inherent merit to people that makes them favorites in His holy sight?  Gimme a break, dude. :smirk: The brain is a powerful mechanism - it can concoct hallucinations or doctrines, depending on what your input is.  You can read life or a holy book in any way you really want to.

If God is both infinite and loving, then how could he be said to play favorites?  And if people go to hell, then he as Creator must be said to feel their pain.  Unless you come up with your own vision.

Imagery abounds when it comes to God, and no one image is correct.  It's the attitude of the person that counts.  Everyone decides what god they will serve.  If you've found a god who will pull only all of your favorite friends who happen to agree with you to the same place of fluffy dreams, good for you.  But your god is proved unworthy when he strikes out unprovoked.  No god who is not the substance of our own being can ever really be the true God.

I have a name for the kind of god that would be...  :satan:  but names aren't that important. :wink:


--------------------
"I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou

"To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald


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InvisibleCracka_X
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: stellar renegade]
    #7476018 - 10/01/07 11:58 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

hallelujah!!! preechin to the choir!


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: stellar renegade]
    #7477949 - 10/02/07 04:03 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

It's the attitude of the person that counts. Everyone decides what god they will serve. If you've found a god who will pull only all of your favorite friends who happen to agree with you to the same place of fluffy dreams, good for you.

Now bring this awareness over to P&S.:rofl2::thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7478090 - 10/02/07 04:48 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

EternalCowabunga said:
fivepointer, how can you be so certain that the truth which has now been revealed to you by the holy spirit is any more true than what you learned from psychedelics? How was the truth revealed to you? Through prayer?

apologies if you've already addressed this, I haven't looked through the entire thread



The notions I had with psychedelics had no permanence and could change over time, they were just hunches really. The Holy Spirit permanently indwells every believer. I currently always have knowledge of the Spirit's presence and this didn’t exist before my conversion. The Bible says the Spirit itself bears witness with the believers’ spirit, that the believer knows he is one of God's children. This sounds hoaky but it is true.

The work of the Spirit is to convince of truth, and leads all God's people into a belief of the gospel. The truth is by the Word only, not my mystical experience. (Although the way the Spirit converts someone is pretty mystical.) Before conversion I could not understand scripture at all, I would try to read it, get frustrated, never come to any real understanding. After, it is like another book, like someone replaced it with something I can understand. The initial work of the Spirit in conversion is conviction of sinnership, and of righteousness. You guess you would have to experience this to know what I am talking about.


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: stellar renegade]
    #7478124 - 10/02/07 05:05 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

stellar renegade said:
Quote:

fivepointer said:
Quote:

Visionary Tools said:
Mods need power to give people IV DMT Hcl. Talk to me about god after you have broken through.



I have had my fair share of psychedelic experiences, and I never did less then heroic doses.  These can make you think you know a lot of things about God, and the universe.  However I now know all those notions were not real. The truth has been revealed to me by the Holy Spirit revealing the Word which reveals the true God and eternal life.



From one trip :mushroom2: to another :sheesha:...?

I would feel more sympathetic to your view if you at least saw God as the force of blind fate.  But to you there's a particular inherent merit to people that makes them favorites in His holy sight?  Gimme a break, dude. :smirk: The brain is a powerful mechanism - it can concoct hallucinations or doctrines, depending on what your input is.  You can read life or a holy book in any way you really want to.

If God is both infinite and loving, then how could he be said to play favorites?  And if people go to hell, then he as Creator must be said to feel their pain.  Unless you come up with your own vision.

Imagery abounds when it comes to God, and no one image is correct.  It's the attitude of the person that counts.  Everyone decides what god they will serve.  If you've found a god who will pull only all of your favorite friends who happen to agree with you to the same place of fluffy dreams, good for you.  But your god is proved unworthy when he strikes out unprovoked.  No god who is not the substance of our own being can ever really be the true God.

I have a name for the kind of god that would be...  :satan:  but names aren't that important. :wink:



Actually it is exactly the opposite to what you are saying.  No one has ANY merit whatsoever.  All are in the same boat, completely undeserving.  The very thing you are saying that makes God wicked, unconditional election, is the very thing that proves His goodness.  The fact that He saves those who have NO merits, and gives them every spiritual blessing despite this, demonstrates His goodness.  Grace is despite what you do, not because what you do.


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InvisibleCracka_X
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: fivepointer]
    #7478521 - 10/02/07 07:23 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

The truth is by the Word only, not my mystical experience.




hmm, I always felt what could be put into words isn't the full truth, whereas an experience, a mystical one for this instance, would contain so much ups and downs... 'truth' about one's self that it'd be difficult to describe.


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Cracka_X]
    #7479424 - 10/03/07 12:17 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)



--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Offlinestellar renegade
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: fivepointer]
    #7479450 - 10/03/07 12:33 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Actually it is exactly the opposite to what you are saying. No one has ANY merit whatsoever. All are in the same boat, completely undeserving. The very thing you are saying that makes God wicked, unconditional election, is the very thing that proves His goodness. The fact that He saves those who have NO merits, and gives them every spiritual blessing despite this, demonstrates His goodness. Grace is despite what you do, not because what you do.



Okay, fair enough then. I thought you spoke of merits earlier and how they determine salvation. Perhaps you were satirizing another viewpoint and it may have been the statement that really confused me. Regardless, I agree with you completely.

The only thing I found disturbing was the almost nonchalant attitude towards those who were not chosen. Perhaps, though, I still do not understand. I do appreciate the attitude you've displayed in the last couple of posts, and fear I may have judged too quickly and harshly.


--------------------
"I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou

"To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald


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InvisibleCracka_X
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7479506 - 10/03/07 01:15 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:



:madhamster:


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: stellar renegade]
    #7479542 - 10/03/07 01:49 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

That would make our lifes here on earth absolute worthless and we could do whatever we want here.
So let's start to have some REAL fun and built up some material egocentric power and exploit and enslave the world and its inhabitants, whatever we can get a grip on, to make us feel really good and great, to pass that 'boring' and 'worthless' waiting time on this worthless planet with worthless people and worthless live ?
And that's exactly, what all false religions have done, are doing and will do, ever.
:hellfire:

G*D's' grace is, to allow (give the possibility for) the human to change...and experience LOVE.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


Edited by BlueCoyote (10/03/07 02:03 AM)


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OfflineBooby
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #7479553 - 10/03/07 02:02 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Let's all get a grip on perspective and realize that God, any god, wants to be the biggest fish in the pond.

small town politics.


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Offlinestellar renegade
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #7480746 - 10/03/07 12:08 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
That would make our lifes here on earth absolute worthless and we could do whatever we want here.
So let's start to have some REAL fun and built up some material egocentric power and exploit and enslave the world and its inhabitants, whatever we can get a grip on, to make us feel really good and great, to pass that 'boring' and 'worthless' waiting time on this worthless planet with worthless people and worthless live ?
And that's exactly, what all false religions have done, are doing and will do, ever.
:hellfire:

G*D's' grace is, to allow (give the possibility for) the human to change...and experience LOVE.



Well, I completely agree.  And what I'm trying to tell fivepointer is that as long as one is imprisoned, all are.  In fact, those in control may be worse off than the ones they try to control.  It is not good to be selfish.  It is even worse for there to be a God who decides who gets to be unselfish and who doesn't.  And I'm hoping fivepointer doesn't think that decision is arbitrary.

All will be saved from their selfishness by both their own sickness of it and by God's extraordinary grace working through every circumstance around them.  The universe demands an absolute end to evil, and will have it, one way or another.

Quote:

Booby said:
Let's all get a grip on perspective and realize that God, any god, wants to be the biggest fish in the pond.

small town politics.



That is, if God is someone outside of us and not someone who shares our essential being, and we his.


--------------------
"I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou

"To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald


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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: stellar renegade]
    #7482090 - 10/03/07 06:37 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

If riding (w)horses and slaughtering pigs is the favorite pastime of gods one can understand their disinclination to reveal the fact.


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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Booby]
    #7483680 - 10/04/07 02:56 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

lulz


--------------------
"I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou

"To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald


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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Booby]
    #7484244 - 10/04/07 09:50 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Booby said:
Let's all get a grip on perspective and realize that God, any god, wants to be the biggest fish in the pond.

small town politics.




do you mean that god is basically one of many memes.. in a game of survival of the fittest?


--------------------


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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7485664 - 10/04/07 05:04 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

EternalCowabunga said:
Quote:

Booby said:
Let's all get a grip on perspective and realize that God, any god, wants to be the biggest fish in the pond.

small town politics.




do you mean that god is basically one of many memes.. in a game of survival of the fittest?




A moderator has expressed an inclination to lock this thread. I assume the status quo to be a reflection of the current regime in that if the gods were modeled after Mafia Bosses they wouldn't care to openly discuss their innermost motivations. I can respect that.

My dog shit on the rug. She expected reprisal. she's trying but if I don't pick up on her nuances she is going to shit on the rug.

A dog might expect punishment, since that is the rational expectation. Bliss then could be viewed as the product of a weak mind, irrational.

Thankyou for the parameters for an introspection; if I arrive at anything resembling an opinion i might air them, perhaps in another thread.


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: stellar renegade]
    #7485867 - 10/04/07 06:05 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

To stellar renegade,

Your doctrines have no foundation in scripture and oppose the true gospel. You can not make things up as you go along and find any truth. Truth is in the scripture, not in what seems "right". Hope you will see this some day.


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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Booby]
    #7486016 - 10/04/07 06:52 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

:talkingtowall:


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: fivepointer]
    #7486050 - 10/04/07 07:00 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

The Holy Spirit permanently indwells every believer. I currently always have knowledge of the Spirit's presence and this didn’t exist before my conversion.

Sounds like psychosis or something. You might want to have that checked out.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Icelander]
    #7486803 - 10/04/07 10:53 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Ok dude, no personal comments please.

Booby: Conflicting opinions are allowed, personal criticisms are not. I know the line is fuzzy, thus this thread remains open. Express your objective and impersonal opinions freely.


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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Middleman]
    #7488342 - 10/05/07 01:00 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Sorry, thought I was in Physical and Mental.:crazy2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleAlteredAgain
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Icelander]
    #7510333 - 10/11/07 07:34 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)



--------------------


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: AlteredAgain]
    #7510530 - 10/11/07 08:12 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)



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Offlineshakercee
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7513709 - 10/13/07 09:43 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

do you mean that god is basically one of many memes.. in a game of survival of the fittest?




Yes, it is the most persistent, rugged, and downright hysteria-producing meme in the noosphere. It would survive till the end come for humanity


--------------------
Pray, v.: To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy - Ambrose Bierce

Medical science has confirmed what the male world has known intuitively for millenia: that scratching your ass is a great aid to complex thinking.

Its God's responsibility to forgive the terrorist organizations such as Jaish, Lashkar etc.
Its our responsibility to arrange the meeting between them and god."
- Indian Armed Forces

"Hey Monkey!! Get Funky" - Tarzan and Jane


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