Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   North Spore Bulk Substrate   Bridgetown Botanicals Bridgetown Botanicals   Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

Jump to first unread post Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | Next >  [ show all ]
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7470535 - 09/30/07 01:45 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

fivepointer said:
And take your universalism with you on your way out.




Such a hateful Christian. :nono:
Or is it a tautology? :smirk:




Hate and fear! The mark of the Godly.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinea_guy_named_ai
Stranger
Male
Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 767
Last seen: 15 years, 7 months
Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: fivepointer]
    #7470620 - 09/30/07 02:14 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Take your rotten gospel of salvation by works with you.





Now you have attacked the gospel. It's not of works, you calvinists just won't accept this. It is the grace of God that saves us, but that same grace works in us to perfect us in righteousness. Those that walk (Work) by the spirit, will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. But if you walk contrary to the Spirit, God will not abide in you. Always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. You won't accept this even when the Word of God tells you plain and clear:

Quote:

14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.




The pagans will probably grasp this before you do. It's really sad when non Christians understand the Word better than those who profess to be Christians.

I didn't want to get into an arguement with you, calvinists argue in circles, never grasping their own presuppositions which they read into God's word. They do not know how to rightly divide the word of truth, and more than anything it is obvious to all that the Love of God does not abide in them.

Here is a letter I wrote to a calvinist. Not everything in it need apply to you, but it does well to prove my point.

Quote:

Hi calvinist-,

It's appreciated that you answered so quick. Perhaps what you meant when you said that you don't see yourself in any denomination is that you believe so strongly that your denomination is right that it is the Truth?

Like I said before, I am in an extreme minority and I'm looking for people that share my views, that we can be together through this evil . I'm going to share some things with you that I'm sure you've never heard before, or at least not the way I am going to present them to you.

I've argued with a lot of argumentative and abusive people who are not walking in the same love they preach. I am sure also that you have come across many abusive people pushing their beliefs and speaking in or acting in a way that is ungodly. My goal here is to convince you, and I hope I do. I don't ask you to be unbiased (which is practically impossible) but I do ask you to really think upon the things to follow.


I remember I was living in my own apartment a while back, and I had no friends. I was hungry for the Truth, and yet I still had many misunderstandings and bad habits and thoughts. I would go online and go to this website and argue with others in a reformed protestant (mostly) Christian forum. Though my arguments did have some good points, I didn't have the right understanding or the right attitude. I found myself faced with questions that were very hard to consider. for instance, children being massacred along with others in the wars israel fought in the desert with Moses.

Some of the calvinists on the website did make some points, which although didn't fit with an overwhelming amount of scripture, still attacked my faith, and because of my lack of understanding challanged me in a way I wasn't prepared for.

I know I'm very young still, but I hope the doctrine I present to you you'll consider nevertheless.

Alot of my misunderstanding had to do with what grace was. We hear the word over and over again, much like many Christian "isms", but so many don't understand. Most of the time, what people recieve from the preacher behind the pulpit is so subtle that many receive untrue doctrine without understanding. I believe this is because it is just as God's word predicted, that people would have itching ears. Ultimately it starts with the heart.

I could count many many verses that I'm sure you've heard before that people quote to condtradict calvinism, esp. limited atonement. They're right, at least for the most part. But their understanding is flawed also.

I was honest with myself and recognised their was a contradiction from what I believed and from what others were pointing out in scripture. I realized I had a lack of understanding and so I searched God's word to make sense of things. I never did believe in eternal security, although I was deceived for a very short time a while ago. I never agreed with the calvinists, but I did have doubts and my faith was attacked because of my lack of understanding.


I always believed that man had free will. I still do, but before I believed that man could come to God ALL on his own. I didn't really know all of scripture, but this I was sure of, and I as well as others had many verses to defend the belief in free will. But the calvinists pointed out some scripture and said man doesn't have any say in the matter, and it's all up to God. I was puzzled.


Jesus had just fed five thousand men, and he then had walked across the water to the other side of the sea of Galilee. The next day the people couldn't find him so they got into a ship and went to the other side. When they found him Jesus said " Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled". He then tells them to seek the food that edures to everlasting life. He tells them that he is the bread of life. He then says:

Quote:

"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me." (John 6:37:38)




You might be suprised, but I agree with this verse. All that the Father gives him noone will be cast out.

He tells them not to murmur amoung themselves, and then says:

Quote:

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. 46Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father." (John 44:46)




He then tells thme they need to eat his flesh and drink his blood. The people, being blinded, didn't understand him, and MANY of his deciples left him.

Then after this He says :


Quote:

"65And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. 67Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? 68Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 69And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. 70Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? "




Now I know perhaps what you're thinking, that this doesn't contradict what you believe at all. Jesus said be careful how you hear. I looked over that verse and I accepted that only those who are drawn to Jesus can be saved. But it's the deceit of the devil working in the calvinist doctrine. for many, once they are taken in this point, they cave in. But that's not the end you see. In the verses before Jesus said:

Quote:

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me"




Look what is says. Everyone who hears, and learns from the Father comes to him. I had a good idea what, but I kept it in my mind and kept studying.

I kept it in my mind until I came to John chapter 14. He is telling his desciples that he's going to that Father, and that he will send them the Holy Spirit, and that he will come to thme and comfort them. He says:

Quote:

" 15If ye love me, keep my commandments"

" 21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. "




and then Judas asked him how he was going to manifest himself to them and not to the rest of the world. And what he says in the next verse is essentially the same thing he just said:

Quote:

" Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me."





SO here is the answer to the previous question. What does a person have to hear and learn from the Father? His word. God's commandments. Righteousness.

A man receives God's righteousness in his heart, and is drawn to God. He hears the word and believes in and obeys the gospel receiving salvation.

Think about it. So many people wish to go to heaven. They study the bible and go to church and sing hymns and say they love God. SO many people, and so many divisions, and sects, and chaos and confusion. It's been 2000 years, and after all this time, people havn't come to a understanding amoung themselves of the word of God.

That's because the word of God is spiritually discerned. You can study all you want, but ultimately, the real matter is in the heart.

So John chapter 14 tells us how to become saved. And John chapter 15 tells how to stay saved.

Quote:

" 1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. "




The Father takes away every branch in The Lord that does not bear fruit. What are the branches? That's you or me if we abide in him.

Quote:

"Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me."




We can have no spiritual fruit without Him. Without him, we can do nothing.

What happens if we don't abide in him then? I remember I asked you this question. Here is the answer:

Quote:

" 6If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. "




If I, being a branch abiding in Christ do not abide in him I am cast into the fire and burned. This is in complete exact accordance with what John the baptist said from the very beginning:

Quote:

" 10And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire." (Math 3:10)




Jesus tells us to continue in his love. He says:

Quote:

" 10If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. "




Can you see it? I hope you can. Many many people have read this verse, but have never seen it. Keep God's commandments and you will abide in his love. I've sure you've heard people preach of the simplicity in Christ. Just believe and be saved? There is a simplicity (not a worldly simplicity), the same simplicity Jesus mentioned in praying and praising God:

Quote:

" 25At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

26Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. "




It's not just believe. It's believe and obey. That is the true simplicity in Christ. There is so much more, but this is what Jesus came to die on the tree for. To save us from sin and death, and manifest God's righteousness and love in us.

I've heard others talk about salvation speaking of God's righteousness rather than our own righteousness. It seems this is particularly a hot topic to the calvinist. I want to tell you our right, that those arguements once again are both flawed.

This is a misunderstanding of God's grace.

This is another word you hear among Christians very often. But once again, it is something so little understand.

Here are a couple defenitions of grace:

1828 dictionary defenition: " The favorable influence of God in renewing the heart and restraining from sin.."

Strongs # 5485 khar'-ece: Graciousness (as gratifying) of manner or act (abstr. or conr., lit. fig, or spiritual; esp the divine influence upon the heart and it's reflection in the life; including gratitude."

Grace is God's power working in our life, teaching us, guiding us, building us up, leading us into righteousness, perfecting us, sanctifying those that trust and obey in him:


" Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God..

Quote:

17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)"




The gift of righteousness.

Quote:

" 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." eph 2:10

" 14Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works." titus 2:14

" 32And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified." acts 20:32

"11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world " (titus 2:11-12)

" That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. " (Romans 5:21)




It’s just as Paul said:


Quote:

“But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.” (1 Cor. 15:10)





God does require us to work hard and strive to salvation. He does ask us to obey him and love others. God will judge everyone by their words, and by their works. He holds us all accountable. And when God holds you accountable, it’s your responsibility to live up to the standard God has set for you to follow. But it’s always God who gives us the strength to bear spiritual fruit, and you can only have True love from God. Isn’t everything we have from God anyway? We are fully dependant on him.

The standard is Jesus Christ. The standard is perfection. Jesus said it himself.

Quote:

“ Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. ” (Matt 5:48)

“ Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you. “ ( 2 cor. 13:11)

“ But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. “ (1 John 2:5)





calvinist, I have a lot more I would like to share with you but I will wait. I will tell you this. There are many false churches and many false doctrines, but the bible doesn’t speak about all of them. There is one that Peter in went to great length to condemn. It is the false doctrine of eternal security. It is protestants and evangelicals who deny the Lord who bought them. It is false Christians who cast away God’s righteousness.

Quote:

“ For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
19While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage”




They all promise them freedom in Christ, but it is a false freedom. Their consciences are seared with a hot iron, and they deny in willing ignorance the standard of righteousness required from the Lord They profess as theirs. But they are bastards, for they have all cast off the Father’s instruction.

It is so evil that the apostle John spoke this way concerning them:

Quote:

“Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds. “




I hope you understand. I really hope you do. I tell you that I have changed so much, and my old understanding is like a black stain, and my new like a shining lamp, growing brighter and brighter each day. I received this understanding from God, and I have changed very much, and my life will change even more.

I hope you can receive these words, and I hope you love the Truth so much that you’re willing to seek it with all your heart, and all your soul, and all your strength, and all your mind. Because if you don’t, you will perish.

I might have missed some things, but I hope to converse more with you. I will pray that God will open your heart and eyes to receive this. I’m sure you have objections and things to say if you have read all of this, and I’m fairly certain I can find answers to them. And it is my sincerest hope for all men, and you,
Quote:


“that He would grant you, according to (A)the riches of His glory, to be (B)strengthened with power through His Spirit in (C)the inner man, so that (D)Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being (E)rooted and (F)grounded in love,
may be able to comprehend with (G)all the saints what is (H)the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know (I)the love of Christ which (J)surpasses knowledge, that you may be (K)filled up to all the (L)fullness of God.
(M)Now to Him who is (N)able to do far more abundantly beyond all that we ask or think, (O)according to the power that works within us,
(P)to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations forever and ever. Amen.” (Eph 3:16-21)




Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBooby
Agent Mulder
 User Gallery
Registered: 09/14/05
Posts: 3,781
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7470675 - 09/30/07 02:34 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Can we agree to disagree?

Jesus talked about God and then people start saying that Jesus is God and that His mother is the Mother of God but Jesus never claimed so.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Female User Gallery


Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Booby]
    #7470717 - 09/30/07 02:49 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

This thread needs more  :drumming:
And some  :protest:  :lol:
Also some  :bigblunt:  :xtc:  :lsd:
A little more  :pinkelephant:  :celery:  :tomato:
And of course,  :uptosomething:
There it's all good now :yesnod:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinefivepointer
newbie
Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 1,428
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7470732 - 09/30/07 02:53 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

jonathan_206 said:
Quote:

Take your rotten gospel of salvation by works with you.




Now you have attacked the gospel. It's not of works, you calvinists just won't accept this. It is the grace of God that saves us, but that same grace works in us to perfect us in righteousness. Those that walk (Work) by the spirit, will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. But if you walk contrary to the Spirit, God will not abide in you. Always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. You won't accept this even when the Word of God tells you plain and clear:




You are the one that has attacked the gospel. Christian theology is 100% grace, what you call "calvinism". I NEVER said salvation was by works, ever! You are the one that brings that teaching, not me, see your quote:

"Indeed, may you know also, may you know the grace of God which perfects in righteousness those who are called, not by faith alone but by faith and works. "

According to your theology justification is contingent on your maintaining good works. Correct me if I'm wrong on this. This is salvation by works. It is very similar to Romanism. Rome teaches your theology of cooperative grace bringing in salvation. What happens if you fail to keep these good works? Do you loose your justification?

Good works are a result of the gift, they are not a cause of the gift being given. You have put the cart before the horse.

Arminian doctrine is from the pits of darkness with its roots in Rome.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinea_guy_named_ai
Stranger
Male
Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 767
Last seen: 15 years, 7 months
Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Booby]
    #7470750 - 09/30/07 02:59 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Jesus talked about God and then people start saying that Jesus is God and that His mother is the Mother of God but Jesus never claimed so.




Jesus claimed to be God, it's plain and clear. I don't know how you can say that. Go do a search on the internet. It's not even worth argueing.


I agree that we disagree.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinea_guy_named_ai
Stranger
Male
Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 767
Last seen: 15 years, 7 months
Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: fivepointer]
    #7470790 - 09/30/07 03:08 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

fivepointer:

Quote:

You are the one that has attacked the gospel. Christian theology is 100% grace, what you call "calvinism". I NEVER said salvation was by works, ever! You are the one that brings that
teaching, not me, see your quote:




No, your gospel in not the gospel. You said my gospel was works based which it is not.

Quote:

"Indeed, may you know also, may you know the grace of God which perfects in righteousness those who are called, not by faith alone but by faith and works. "




That's right faith and works, just as scripture says as it clearly points out above.

Quote:

According to your theology justification is contingent on your maintaining good works. Correct me if I'm wrong on this. This is salvation by works. It is very similar to Romanism. Rome teaches your theology of cooperative grace bringing in salvation. What happens if you fail to keep these good works? Do you loose your justification?




Wrong! Grace is given to us freely, but we frustrate that grace when we do not walk according to the Spirit. This requires us to work. We don't work to receive the grace, we work to abide in the grace after it has been given. You follow darkness and expect to abide in light? That's right you lose your justification for not abiding in the grace God has FREELY given you.
Quote:


Good works are a result of the gift, they are not a cause of the gift being given. You have put the cart before the horse.




If you could see , you would realize I believe that good works are the result of the gift as I pointed out above .

Quote:

Arminian doctrine is from the pits of darkness with its roots in Rome


.

So typical. Everyone who does not agree with a calvinist is an arminian or catholic. Even according to arminian doctrine I am not an arminian, neither am I catholic by any means.

And I noticed you didn't even respond to my arguement.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleCracka_X
Spiritual Dirt Worshipper
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 8,808
Loc: Swamp
Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7470896 - 09/30/07 03:30 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

IT'S A HOLY WAR!!!!


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Female User Gallery


Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Cracka_X]
    #7470907 - 09/30/07 03:33 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Holy? :smirk:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBooby
Agent Mulder
 User Gallery
Registered: 09/14/05
Posts: 3,781
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7470968 - 09/30/07 03:54 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

jonathan_206 said:


Jesus claimed to be God,




If jesus is the son of God, and mary is the mother of God, then I think it is plainly clear that neither of them were or is God (or even claimed to be). Agree?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinefivepointer
newbie
Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 1,428
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7470993 - 09/30/07 04:01 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

jonathan_206 said:
fivepointer:

Quote:

According to your theology justification is contingent on your maintaining good works. Correct me if I'm wrong on this. This is salvation by works. It is very similar to Romanism. Rome teaches your theology of cooperative grace bringing in salvation. What happens if you fail to keep these good works? Do you loose your justification?



Quote:


Wrong! Grace is given to us freely, but we frustrate that grace when we do not walk according to the Spirit. This requires us to work. We don't work to receive the grace, we work to abide in the grace after it has been given. You follow darkness and expect to abide in light? That's right you lose your justification for not abiding in the grace God has FREELY given you.




Justification isn’t free if it comes with conditions to maintain it. You stated yourself that you must work to stay in grace. What righteousness makes you just with God? According to you its Christ plus what you do that makes you just. Will God accept less than perfect? No. Your best works could never have ANY part in justification since they are not done perfectly. You have created a religion of self-righteousness that is alien to scripture.

How do you ever know if your justified? Isn't assurance an impossibility? How do you know you are good enough? How can you give thanks and have joy without assurance?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinea_guy_named_ai
Stranger
Male
Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 767
Last seen: 15 years, 7 months
Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Booby]
    #7471037 - 09/30/07 04:14 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

booby:

Quote:


If jesus is the son of God, and mary is the mother of God, then I think it is plainly clear that neither of them were or is God (or even claimed to be). Agree?




No, because the bible clearly points out that being the son of God is the same as saying he is God. Go look at John chapter 14 and you will notice that he shows that he is one with the father and the holy Spirit. Jesus is the Spirit of God. He is the living word, the spiritual word by which all things were created, given life and on earth a fleshly body, by which we no longer know him. There are many other references I can show you including people openly worshipping him as God, proclaiming him as God, and Jesus concurring. Jesus being called everlasting father, mighty God, HOLY ONE etc. Mary was not his true mother, the bible clearly points out that he was begotten by the holy Spirit and placed in Mary's womb.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinea_guy_named_ai
Stranger
Male
Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 767
Last seen: 15 years, 7 months
Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7471053 - 09/30/07 04:21 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:


Quote:


fivepointer:

Quote:
According to your theology justification is contingent on your maintaining good works. Correct me if I'm wrong on this. This is salvation by works. It is very similar to Romanism. Rome teaches your theology of cooperative grace bringing in salvation. What happens if you fail to keep these good works? Do you loose your justification?





jonathan:

Quote:

Wrong! Grace is given to us freely, but we frustrate that grace when we do not walk according to the Spirit. This requires us to work. We don't work to receive the grace, we work to abide in the grace after it has been given. You follow darkness and expect to abide in light? That's right you lose your justification for not abiding in the grace God has FREELY given you.









Quote:

Justification isn’t free if it comes with conditions to maintain it. You stated yourself that you must work to stay in grace. What righteousness makes you just with God? According to you its Christ plus what you do that makes you just. Will God accept less than perfect? No. Your best works could never have ANY part in justification since they are not done perfectly. You have created a religion of self-righteousness that is alien to scripture.




Grace is freely given from the beginning. If someone hands you a gift, a gift that works to perfect you in righteousness, and you cast away that gift by not walking in righteousness, then that is you rejecting the free gift. God's grace requires your cooperation. No, God will not accept less than perfect. And that's why God's grace works with us and in us to maintain perfection and good works and to abide in love. It's not my righteousness, it's the righteousness of God working in me, strengthening me, giving me the power to conquer sin and abide in righteousness.

Quote:

How do you ever know if your justified? Isn't assurance an impossibility? How do you know you are good enough? How can you give thanks and have joy without assurance?





Quote:

“ But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. “ (1 John 2:5)




Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBooby
Agent Mulder
 User Gallery
Registered: 09/14/05
Posts: 3,781
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7471060 - 09/30/07 04:23 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

jonathan_206 said:


No, because the bible clearly points out that being the son of God is the same as saying he is God.




That's like claiming to be the mother of God is the same as saying she is God.

The only way Mary could be Mother of God and Jesus Son of God is if she was "impregnated" by her son the brother of Jesus which would rightly make her the grandmother of Jesus and Jesus the son of his brother who impregnated his mother. This is all legitimate with gods you know.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinefivepointer
newbie
Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 1,428
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7471091 - 09/30/07 04:36 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

"Grace is freely given from the beginning. If someone hands you a gift, a gift that works to perfect you in righteousness, and you cast away that gift by not walking in righteousness, then that is you rejecting the free gift. God's grace requires your cooperation. No, God will not accept less than perfect. And that's why God's grace works with us and in us to maintain perfection and good works and to abide in love. It's not my righteousness, it's the righteousness of God working in me, strengthening me, giving me the power to conquer sin and abide in righteousness."

You are saying you are able to "maintain perfection". So if you have a bad day and slip up how do you get back to a justified condition?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinea_guy_named_ai
Stranger
Male
Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 767
Last seen: 15 years, 7 months
Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: fivepointer]
    #7471241 - 09/30/07 05:33 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

booby:


Quote:

Quote:
jonathan_206 said:


No, because the bible clearly points out that being the son of God is the same as saying he is God.






Quote:

That's like claiming to be the mother of God is the same as saying she is God.




No, because Mary was never the Spirit of God. Jesus as the word has always been the Spirit of God. He is the son of God, but not as you and I are the son or daughter of our fathers. With us, we have a physical seed, but with God, it is a spiritual seed, that is his Spirit. Jesus as the Word was given sentience, a will, consciousness,and became the son of God , for he was begotten directly by God in the Spirit. Mary's giving birth to Jesus has absolutely no impact upon her being or not being God.


Quote:

The only way Mary could be Mother of God and Jesus Son of God is if she was "impregnated" by her son the brother of Jesus which would rightly make her the grandmother of Jesus and Jesus the son of his brother who impregnated his mother. This is all legitimate with gods you know.




That's outrageous. And you're wrong even by you're own logic. I can see at least one mistake. It wouldn't make here the grandmother. It would make her sick in the head. But it's all irrelevant as shown above.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBooby
Agent Mulder
 User Gallery
Registered: 09/14/05
Posts: 3,781
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7471266 - 09/30/07 05:43 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

LOL.

Every book in the old testament is a separate perspective of a prophet. The New Testament is no more than another book added to the list.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinea_guy_named_ai
Stranger
Male
Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 767
Last seen: 15 years, 7 months
Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7471277 - 09/30/07 05:47 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:


jonathan:

Quote:

"Grace is freely given from the beginning. If someone hands you a gift, a gift that works to perfect you in righteousness, and you cast away that gift by not walking in righteousness, then that is you rejecting the free gift. God's grace requires your cooperation. No, God will not accept less than perfect. And that's why God's grace works with us and in us to maintain perfection and good works and to abide in love. It's not my righteousness, it's the righteousness of God working in me, strengthening me, giving me the power to conquer sin and abide in righteousness."




fivepointer:

Quote:

You are saying you are able to "maintain perfection". So if you have a bad day and slip up how do you get back to a justified condition?








We don't slip up.


Quote:

6Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

10In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.




If I stumble, it is no longer me that sins, but sin that abides in me, in my flesh. My Spirit is redeemed in Christ, but this flesh is cursed, and subject to corruption. Those who abide in Christ persevere and fight against sin in the world and in the flesh, until we are redeemed with new Spiritual bodies:

Quote:

14For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

15For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.




If anyone who has known the grace of God truly slips up, there is no more hope of salvation:

Quote:


26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.




Edited by jonathan_206 (09/30/07 05:56 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinea_guy_named_ai
Stranger
Male
Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 767
Last seen: 15 years, 7 months
Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7471295 - 09/30/07 05:55 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:



LOL.

Every book in the old testament is a separate perspective of a prophet. The New Testament is no more than another book added to the list.




Every prophets testimony must be validated by his prophecies coming true. It would do you well to study all the amazing prophecies in the bible that had been prophecied hundreds of years before, (sometimes even thousands) which have been confirmed.

and not every book in the old testament is a seperate perspective of a prophet that's not true.

The fact of the matter is that the bible is history, and it is the most verified historical record we have in the world. It has 24,000 + pieces of manuscript, and more and more artifacts confirm the bible veracity. The other runner up is the Illyad with a mere 400 or so If I remember correctly manuscripts.

I wish more people even knew what textual criticism is.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinefivepointer
newbie
Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 1,428
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7471299 - 09/30/07 05:58 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

You can never rest. Remember one slip up and your toast. You can't see this scheme is salvation by works? Works are a result of the new heart that was freely given, free as in no strings either to obtain or maintain it. The new heart evidences itself in how someone acts. The acts themselves have no saving value, they are the result of what has been freely given. You have put the order of things in reverse.

If someone claims to be a Christian, and has no change in how they act, that person didn't loose salvation, they never had salvation in the first place.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   North Spore Bulk Substrate   Bridgetown Botanicals Bridgetown Botanicals   Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Why is there a Christan Evangelical movement going on? Metasyn 1,387 6 10/13/05 08:51 PM
by leery11
* Christianity is the fastest growing religion Luddite 2,250 6 10/08/06 07:11 AM
by niteowl
* Christianity, US government and the biblical end of times ... is it NOW ?
( 1 2 3 all )
MAIA 10,737 56 02/12/07 12:17 PM
by Lightningfractal
* spiritually equal
( 1 2 all )
spudamore 3,051 24 06/23/06 09:21 AM
by IamHungry
* Heaven is coming to earth *the sequel*
( 1 2 3 4 ... 51 52 )
zorbman 178,039 1,020 03/15/18 06:53 PM
by BrendanFlock
* Got a death threat from religous nutjobs. Grok 2,722 17 02/03/07 05:38 PM
by Zepplin
* Anonymous Christianity shroomydan 1,180 2 04/13/06 07:03 PM
by fivepointer
* Psychological and metaphysical aspects of Music
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 all )
Blastrid 31,916 107 12/08/16 01:45 AM
by Fractaliopsybe

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, Shroomism, Rose, Kickle, yogabunny, DividedQuantum
16,073 topic views. 0 members, 8 guests and 2 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.025 seconds spending 0.007 seconds on 15 queries.