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FocusHawaii
Keeper of theMagic Garden

Registered: 12/27/02
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Cracka_X]
#7461732 - 09/27/07 07:20 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Not really, if judgement never comes then it has still yet to happen. Theology is dumb like that, nothing disproves a proposition.
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hummermania00
Strange Son of aBitch



Registered: 04/07/07
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Middleman]
#7462325 - 09/27/07 09:47 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Middleman said: Yah ok, I knew someone would say that, it just seems Xtians are the only ones who actually do it.
I know there can't be any double standards in here, I recently closed a thread where people were criticizing Satanists.
I just take offense to the above "Ungodly" inference...
I understand where you are coming from. Here is a quote from CS Lewis, a christian writer. "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." I think it speaks for itself.
-------------------- You are a fortunate person indeed, if you can begin each day accepting the fact that during that day there will be ups and downs, good breaks and bad ones, disappointments, surprises, and unexpected turns of events. When you have solved all the mysteries of life you long for death, for it is but another mystery of life.
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Booby
Agent Mulder

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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: fivepointer]
#7463154 - 09/28/07 05:42 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
fivepointer said:
At the very core of the differences between us lies in the fact that I view scripture as the infallible Word of God while you view it as some collection of writing by fallible men.
No one is innocent, all are born in the fall, babies included.
Obviously you are mistaken on all counts "for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.." luke 16:8, and you consider yourself a child of light don't you?
(edit: awesome 666 post)
Edited by Booby (09/28/07 05:48 AM)
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Booby
Agent Mulder

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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: fivepointer]
#7463189 - 09/28/07 06:06 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
fivepointer said:
No one is innocent, all are born in the fall, babies included.
The benefit of the doubt concedes that we may be mistaken. We both may be mistaken. All that is left then is to live with our own conscience. This then suggests to me that it is our own conscience that judges us, not something outside of us.
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Booby
Agent Mulder

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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Booby]
#7463200 - 09/28/07 06:14 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Booby said: it is our own conscience that judges us, not something outside of us.
I'm wrong I know, so don't quote me on that.
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palmersc
Stranger


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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Veritas]
#7465452 - 09/28/07 07:56 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said: Well, I will conclude by saying that I very strongly hope that you are wrong.
fivepointer is speaking truth. I used to scoff at his posts while reasoning that God would not condemn anybody forever.
Fear of the LORD is what is lacking. No respect.
We all expect there to be justice here on earth, so why act so surprised when those who rejoice in sin are punished for it? I'll try and tone it down a bit because I'd like you to take it seriously.
Pride. That is the major stumbling block for most on this board. God will not hear those who think themselves to be gods themselves. He helps those who cannot help themselves. Until you are willing to take a knee before him and genuinely ask him for help, he will let you continue in your ways.
In my case I continued in my ways for a couple years of intense meditation and occasional psychedelic drug usage. Seemed to be working out pretty good. There was no God to hound me or written codes to live by. So I sat and meditated for hours and hours clearing my mind and letting down my guard. I practiced a technique of letting go of all resistance and acceptance of what is.
Little did I know that I was opening myself up to EVERYTHING out there. This is what might have happened to me:
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/calcom32.ii.xv.html
Basically my mind was prime real estate for evil spirits. Believe it or not.
I began getting thoughts that I was Jesus. This happened on a few trips too. Have you ever heard of anybody thinking they were Muhammad or Buddha or any other religious figure? Jesus is a name which is above all others. God in the flesh.
So what happened to me in my especially depraved state was not fun. I fought and fought and was repeatedly shown the gospel. I would not hear it initially, but so many signs occurred and coincidences beyond explanation that I finally opened my ears and began to hear. Even then the battle still raged on.
Basically all my fighting broke me down and instilled a fear of the Lord which was not there before. The stakes are high here. Very high. And there is only one hope. Jesus.
Fear of the Lord is where it began for me. I am pretty hard headed.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: palmersc]
#7465649 - 09/28/07 09:06 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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This is your truth, not everybody else's. Those who don't don't ask for justice can be left alone by god. How can anyone believe, that in this huge Universe which supports all the possibilities, has such a bitch of a god?
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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stellar renegade
explorer ofmetaphysicaldepths



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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7465806 - 09/28/07 10:09 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Wow... I kept checking back here only to find no replies... then a couple of days later, it exploded.
Craaaazy, man. Too much to really respond to.
One has to wonder how much security one can find in a religion until he gets so sick of the condemnation and hate and constant fear that he begins searching for something else... my response is coming up.
-------------------- "I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou
 "To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
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Quote:
One has to wonder how much security one can find in a religion until he gets so sick of the condemnation and hate and constant fear that he begins searching for something else...
It's a closed circuit if you analyze it. It has the fear inducement and the "salvation"... hard to get out of it this way. But then again, I really don't have anything against someone's beliefs, no matter how weird they are, as long as they don't try to convert others. This is what really sucks. To each his own
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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stellar renegade
explorer ofmetaphysicaldepths



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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: fivepointer]
#7465926 - 09/28/07 10:43 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
fivepointer said: Your question on Romans 2 had me thinking. I think you are trying to say Romans 2 nullifies the doctrine of total depravity. In the statement above you say salvation is a matter of the heart. So I'm guessing you believe unregenerate man has some divine light apart from regeneration, and can know God simply from this residual light. Correct me if I'm reading you wrong. If this is what you are saying then I totally disagree with it. Unregenerate man had NO LIGHT in his heart, in fact it is described as spiritually dead. He needs a heart transplant, a whole new heart, and he can not do this on his own.
Yes I do think it nullifies it, at least the way you are presenting it here.
Let's have a quote or two, shall we?:
There will be... glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism. (vs. 9-11)
All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) (vs. 12-15)I think the people here have shown a remarkable ability to follow their conscience. They seem to me to be perfectly honest and reasonable people who understand love and common respect. The tragedy is that your doctrine doesn't allow for that.  Quote:
fivepointer said: Next you say you believe in grace. Now let me ask you some questions about this. Do you believe in unconditional election / reprobation? (that election is not based on foreseen acts, but only on God's will prior to any acts?) Do you believe in a hypothetical universal atonement that makes every person potentially savable if they perform certain actions? Do you believe a person can "fall from grace" and loose salvation? I ask because most people I meet say "grace" but when questioned they don't believe in the true grace of the Bible.
I believe that the grace of God is completely unconditional, and that His salvation is a mystery which is beyond human comprehension. He saves people by means of their actions, by recreating them in the depths of their heart and creating pure motives in them. Like you said, faith is a sign of salvation.
However, the difference for me is that I believe salvation is for everyone. God loves everyone, just as Jesus told Nicodemus, a member of the Sanhedrin! He even loves the religiously sanctimonious, though not in the way they are looking for (godly approval). His love is humbling.
If you question my belief on this matter, then read Paul's very own words, again to the Romans. First, let's put it in context. He describes how passionately he desires for his own race (those who had pridefully closed their hearts off to Jesus Christ) to be saved:
I speak the truth in Christ — I am not lying, my conscience confirms it in the Holy Spirit — I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, the people of Israel. Romans 9:1-3
It was these very people who were waiting for any opportunity possible to kill him, but he didn't hold any resentment towards them. And yet his ministry was towards the Gentiles, for whom he poured out his heart in full. So what's to keep him from wanting anyone and everyone to be saved? Well, let's take a look at what he said a little earlier:
Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. Romans 5:18-19
Did you catch that? The same referents who had fallen through Adam, every single one of them, will be saved through Christ. Therefore God is for every person and not just some.
Do you also believe that people were predetermined to fall? Then here's something for you too:
Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all. Romans 11:30-32
The scriptures are quite clear, however lost and blind people may have distorted them. Nowhere are we told that some people will be saved and unconditionally loved whereas other people will not. 
I have to say though, if that's what I thought the Bible was preaching, I wouldn't believe in it at all. My conscience would tell me that God is much more holy than that.
Just my two cents. Have fun.
-------------------- "I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou
 "To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald
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stellar renegade
explorer ofmetaphysicaldepths



Registered: 09/19/07
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7465978 - 09/28/07 10:56 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
Quote:
One has to wonder how much security one can find in a religion until he gets so sick of the condemnation and hate and constant fear that he begins searching for something else...
It's a closed circuit if you analyze it. It has the fear inducement and the "salvation"... hard to get out of it this way. But then again, I really don't have anything against someone's beliefs, no matter how weird they are, as long as they don't try to convert others. This is what really sucks. To each his own
Yeah.
I'm currently reading a book by Rick Joyner which is a vision (one could call it an archetype ) wherein much of the church is seen as an army being ridden by demons. Trailing behind the foremost portions is a huge group of prisoners shackled by snakes called Shame and imprisoned by small demons of Fear. There are vultures called Depression which, from time to time, land on the prisoners and puke vomit on them. The vomit is called 'Condemnation' and the prisoners think that it is truth from God. If any one of the prisoners falls over from weakness, all of the others gather around to beat them with their swords until dead. Joyner said that after seeing all this he literally felt like dying.
It doesn't end so bleak, though, not in the least. It quickly transitions to those who are realizing what this evil army is doing, climbing a mountain to try to defeat it and to gain higher ground. Eventually they come to the highest portions (one level is called "Galatians Two Twenty" referring to self-denial) and the atmosphere is so brilliant and refreshing that it gives them new vigor to fight. The angels Faith, Hope and Love are standing there bigger and brighter than ever, causing everyone for miles around to be attracted to the mountain. Eventually they find the top where the garden is, which is called "The Unconditional Love of the Father" and people from every walk of life are intoxicated by love and remembering every pleasant memory they ever had on earth. 
It simply amazes me the difference between true faith and love and the counterfeit. I guess it demonstrates the basic principle that the greater a thing is, the worse its abuses will be.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
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Yeah well I'm not really buying that demons - angels stuff either. I don't think that those who try imprint fear and guilt are "evil"... they are weak and scared themselves. If we keep on continuing is seeing this world as a battle between evil and good we'll never be able to enjoy our lives. I think that each of us need a good dose and maybe even a OD on fear, so we never go there again. I know I experienced this anxiety when I was a child, because my parents (especially my mother) are convinced Christians, and hearing all that bull shit, seeing her waste her life on fear, made me feel it too. Until I got sick of it. Simple as that
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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palmersc
Stranger


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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7466116 - 09/29/07 12:34 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said: This is your truth, not everybody else's.
Thus says the Lord: "Let not the wise man boast in his wisdom, let not the mighty man boast in his might, let not the rich man boast in his riches, but let him who boasts boast in this, that he understands and knows me, that I am the Lord who practices steadfast love, justice, and righteousness in the earth. For in these things I delight, declares the Lord." Jeremiah 9:23-24
This isn't just my truth. If it were just my truth, I'd keep it to myself.
Proverbs 9:7 He who corrects a mocker invites insult. He who reproves a wicked man invites abuse. 9:8 Don’t reprove a scoffer, lest he hate you. Reprove a wise man, and he will love you.
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Gomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!



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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: palmersc]
#7466122 - 09/29/07 12:37 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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"A master knows how it is to be a fool, but a fool has seldom been a master!" -- Some Buddhist dude..
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fivepointer
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7466126 - 09/29/07 12:40 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Many on this thread have stated basically they perceive Christianity as living in a state of fear. Fear is not what motivates a Christian. Christians can never come into judgment. Christians are reconciled to God and know it, this is a source of joy and thanksgiving, not fear. Godly fear is based on reverence, not punishment.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: palmersc]
#7466130 - 09/29/07 12:42 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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No, it is your truth. Anyone can write a book in the name of god, it doesn't mean anything. Because that's what the bible is. There's nothing to attest the existence of god.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: fivepointer]
#7466132 - 09/29/07 12:45 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Godly fear is based on reverence, not punishment.
A god who threatens me with hell is not exactly about love. Sounds to me more like a frightened human.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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palmersc
Stranger


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Quote:
stellar renegade said: One has to wonder how much security one can find in a religion until he gets so sick of the condemnation and hate and constant fear that he begins searching for something else... my response is coming up.
The Lord detests evil and condemns those who do not repent. Once you realize it is no joke through personal experience can you begin to appreciate the things we have been freely given.
By conforming to Him, you begin to dislike sin as well. By rebelling against him you await certain destruction. By seeking the truth in earnest, you will find Him.
My path led me to do some crazy things in order to find Him. I put faith in what I thought to be God by being very reckless in order to know truth.
As a few examples, I drove 75 miles without my corrective lenses in unfamiliar territory (20/500 vision), I left my family and jumped on a plane 4000 miles because I was told to do so, and I hitchhiked around and panhandled in San Francisco walking through traffic without looking by relying on faith.
You could say that I'm lucky to be alive, and I ran into so many characters along the way that it would be impossible to describe what exactly went down. You could say God knew I wasn't messing around, and as I was facing my own destruction, he showed me he wasn't either.
God corrects those he loves. If he's not correcting you, I'd be even more afraid.
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palmersc
Stranger


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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: fivepointer]
#7466196 - 09/29/07 01:15 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I conformed initially out of fear of punishment. After that it's different, but I'd be lying if I said the fear isn't still there.
Love for Him is growing day by day. Without the Lord I have nothing.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: palmersc]
#7466204 - 09/29/07 01:19 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Love for Him is growing day by day. Without the Lord I have nothing.
How did you reach this conclusion? What makes you feel that without him you have nothing? I'm more interested in the actual feeling that you get which influences your process of thought.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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