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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Afraid of dying?
#7436772 - 09/21/07 02:06 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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That cannot be all the truth. Is it not also the fear of living and breathing through the pain and heartache of all the unresolved shit that nags one in the quiet hours. All the chances not taken, the things not done and said, the moments and hours wasted from cowardice. It's the inability to live with what is and what little you have and the great mystery that cannot be known and derive sustenance from that.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (09/21/07 02:39 PM)
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Veritas

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Re: Afraid of dying? [Re: Icelander]
#7436781 - 09/21/07 02:09 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Perhaps we are afraid to die before we have truly lived? And perhaps we do not truly live because we still cherish the belief that, somehow, we will not die?
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Lion
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Re: Afraid of dying? [Re: Icelander]
#7436806 - 09/21/07 02:13 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I'm not afraid of dying... I almost did it once and I felt like it was going to be really exciting. I am afraid of non-existence though - as in Nothingness, Death, Void. And I am afraid of pain.
I don't think there is death, I really think there is another side of the coin (or the sides are an illusion) that is formless energy/pure consciousness.
I am definitely afraid of living. I mean, eventually you realize that there are no rules and no guarantees. There is helpful wisdom, ancient wisdom that will guide you through the darkest parts of life.... but this wisdom is hard to put into practice though it seems simple - is simple - and it feels right.
There are many things I am afraid to do or say - many ways I am afraid of living. Places in Mind I would put up any barrier to not get into.
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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Icelander
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Re: Afraid of dying? [Re: Veritas]
#7436810 - 09/21/07 02:14 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Perhaps we are afraid to die before we have truly lived?
And in this fear we die a thousand deaths because we have not the strength to truly live nor accept the weakness that prevents it.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
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Re: Afraid of dying? [Re: Lion]
#7436819 - 09/21/07 02:17 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I have always appreciated honesty. There is great potential there for resolving the challenge of being human.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Huehuecoyotl
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Re: Afraid of dying? [Re: Icelander]
#7437041 - 09/21/07 03:02 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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If we are afraid to live then dying is a blessing. Locking yourself behind walls and restrictions in the name of safety in a world where death stalks us continually is irrational. Think of anything that you have wanted to do, but would not because of fear, and you will see where true death lurks in your life...behind the fear. In accepting our dying we live...in hording our life...we die.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Afraid of dying? [Re: Lion]
#7437229 - 09/21/07 03:54 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
I mean, eventually you realize that there are no rules and no guarantees.
This statement has drawn my attention. This is because I feel exactly the same, but for me this thought is something that helps me eliminate fears and frustrations. This is because now, having this entirely evident and self regenerating perspective, I become no longer limited by the thoughts that there is something I, or anybody else should do, and also that there's no need to waste my time and create hopes, since there are no guarantees. This allows me to become more efficient in discovering life like an amazed kid wondering at it's fullness , rather than feeling like a mouse which is supposed to solve the maze before running out of time. I think this is because in my childhood I was consumed by the thought that I might not be doing things the "right" way, because of the blame the others are trying to imprint on you, in order to make you become a tamed social person. So yeah, this thought is perfectly reliving and in concordance to what I've always felt on a level.  So now I am really interested to find out the other side of the story where this thought comes as an anxiety creator.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Grok
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I'm a lot less afraid of dying than I am living an unfullfilling life. I actually derive a lot of peace from knowing I'm gonna die. It looked pretty good to me, and not to mention familiar and 'homey'. And even if I'm wrong about what I experienced, I'm still not afraid. What if you become nothing at death? What if there is nothing spiritaul? Well in a mondo physical universe that explodes and coagulates on itself indefinately it would only be inevitable that whatever makes 'me' 'me' would find itself together again and there I'd be. The odds are slim but it's happened at least once - and this is eternity - I'll be again, and if death is the end of perception than I would have no perception of the 'time' (whatever that isn't) between beingness, so in essence it'd be simultaneous. But hell, even things like rocks and water are alive, in their own way, in my book. I'll deal with death when it comes and until then I'm looking forward to it.
-------------------- Entropy is increasing. To send me a PM, go to my journal
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Icelander
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Re: Afraid of dying? [Re: Grok]
#7439969 - 09/22/07 10:23 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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If you were really looking that "forward" to it as one looks to something one wants and likes then you would make appropriate steps to quickly reach your goal. Death anxiety lies sleeping beneath such statements IMO.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Afraid of dying? [Re: Icelander]
#7440218 - 09/22/07 11:39 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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All of our regrets are just our attachment to form. The girls I was not ready to ask out, the opportunities that I allowed to slip by, etc. All of those things were not meant to be. I grok that and what's more, I get that this moment is exactly as it is supposed to be, so how completely can I embrace it is the only 'question.'
Because I have always felt existential isolation most acutely, (until I began to detach from existence and re-identify in each moment as Being), that isolation had always given rise to such gratitude for the company of others (not necessarily sexual or intimate but deep friendship), that I was always there for others in appreciation. Abandonment from rejection or death was not in my control. Control man...it is not about control or perceived failure to have controlled the past. It is about surrender, acceptance. It's about becoming transparent to the insults of life (like when Spock hypnotized his comrads to not believe in the reality of bullets when they were thrust into the OK Corral with the Earp brothers). This past summer I had a breakthrough by coming to terms with my desire for Maslowian "Belongingness Needs" which I never really had as a youth either. I worked alone in my humble yard for over two months becoming ever brought to the Present, accepting the Now, my desire-mind withering. I know some 'seeds' remain, but hard as I search, I cannot really experience any regrets - nothing that I ever had any control over in the past.
Want a simple example of regret? I always took great care of my toys. As an adult I realize that I never threw away all those toys that I now remember. My crazy mother must have thrown them out over the growing-up years. My space helmets and ray-guns alone would be worth a true fortune to collectors. I 'wish' I still had them, if only to sell them, but this regret is not causing me loss of sleep. I had no control over my mother's neurotic cleaning behaviors. I do not want loss of memory, I want absence of emotional attachment to them.
How about a truly painful regret? I never thought I'd marry, but marry I did to a very attractive and educated woman, who unfortunately was very ill psychologically. I spent 13 years, 1/3 of my then 39 years with her before I divorced her. I'm not a crier, but I cried, and I was in extreme pain, anguish, jealousy and even hate for the next few years - the most emotionally intense years of my life. An odd thing happened during that first year. My check book, which I always needed help with ('cause I'm LD in arithmetic ) was never off by even a penny. My co-dependent attachment to my ex-wife began to wither, my Consciousness began to burn through the clouds of deception and unhealthy attachments disguised as 'love.' I do not have any regrets now from courtship to that woman, through piss-poor marriage to divorce to Now. It all had to happen that way.
Your words reflect the perception of exclusively existential man and if you picked up Irv Yalom's large and depressing book, Existential Psychotherapy, you might think that you had penned some of it! For me, now, it is about the awareness of the space between and around each internal and external event that I seek to expand and identify with. It is Sunyata. "He must increase, but I must decrease" John 3:30, (if one views Christ as symbolic of God, and John the Baptist as symbolic of ego in the statement). Reluctance to detach from form is death anxiety. If we allow 'ourselves' to let go, to fade, We let go of the past which continues to preoccupy our minds and reinforce our false identity made of memories. But...gripe on if that is what you want to be - a griping mind living on pain.
'Free-will' operates within a larger 'deterministic' idiom - contrary to the Existentialist vision which places complete control of responsibility on each individual. Their vision is of isolationist individuality without the experience of Being, of God, of Karma or of any Cosmic Order whatsoever. I reject the Existentialist position for the Ontological position as I reject bondage to form for freedom of Formlessness. It's not the anxiety-ridden existential free-falling in life when one is the very sky itself instead of the imagined body-mind falling through the sky into oblivion.
"First, I was irridescent...then I became transparent...finally, I was absent..." - Grace Slick in 'Blows Against the Empire'
Peace.
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Icelander
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so how completely can I embrace it is the only 'question.'

Reluctance to detach from form is death anxiety. If we allow 'ourselves' to let go, to fade, We let go of the past which continues to preoccupy our minds and reinforce our false identity made of memories.
But...gripe on if that is what you want to be - a griping mind living on pain. Why, because I don't come to the same conclusions as you have or I withhold belief because I'm not yet sure and am willing to explore things that you seem to find uncomfortable? I doubt (from listening to your posts for years and watching you flame those who anger you and push your many buttons) that I am less happy than you. In fact I suspect the opposite.;)
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Afraid of dying? [Re: Icelander]
#7440397 - 09/22/07 12:45 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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You are keeping yourself in a position of competition and comparison with me. I haven't laid claim to happiness, and this harkens back to an earlier conversation regarding 'happiness' and 'joy' which I define differently and in agreement with Eckhart Tolle's use of the words - with happiness being an emotion that is dependent upon conditions, and joy as the impingement of Being on our mind-body, emanating from Being. Presence is 'clear' and even leaves the desire for bliss behind.
As to "flaming" people...if flaming is insulting someone, that is your interpretation, but when someone gets up and whines about a problem which is obviously caused BY the whiner, I might utilize some 'angry' language to get that person's attention. There is a huge difference between BEING angry and using angry feelings. The first one is an unconscious and overwheling identification with anger and the second is a skillful means of transforming a reaction to the mental self into instruction for another. Now, whether or not you wish to concede me any rightful place as one who can administer instruction is your choice, but I am not defined as an emotional flamer who unconsciously reacts because my ego-centric position is disagreed with.
I do not know what uncomfortable topic you are referring to, but discomfort has never prevented me from considering an unfamiliar point of view.
I had a childhood buddy - a tripping partner, a guy who I drove around the USA with twice on a camping trip. He was the only witness when I got baptized, and he was a member of my wedding ritual. He used to say that he wanted to be "Fat, dumb and happy." I believe he attained to his wish, and he is welcome to it. He married an older, manipulative woman who was shocked when we first met and discovered that I was to be best man at their wedding. She asked me to cut off my long hair for the event. She used to brag to my ex-wife about how she'd manipulate her husband. Hey, he chose her and they're still together, two kids, big house, her choices. We spoke recently for the first time in about 20 years. I'm glad he has what he wanted. I'm also glad that I don't have what HE wanted. I have what I wanted. I'm glad for you too.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Icelander
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I haven't laid claim to happiness
No you laid claim to my unhappiness which is of course pure speculation on your part based on your personal belief about the rightness of your belief system compared to mine. Had you kept that unnecessary speculation out of the equation we would not be having this conversation.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Afraid of dying? [Re: Icelander]
#7440550 - 09/22/07 01:38 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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That is ridiculous, pure and simple. How could I determine someone else's measure of happiness - someone I have never met in person? How can one even determine that IN person - with a Happiness Meter? The only thing I ever differed on is our different uses of the words 'happiness' and 'joy' which designates different things for me. It is absurd for you to even suggest that I would argue or compare our different subjective experiences regardless of how we define them.
I am not speculating anything about you. You were announcing your particular form of discomfort. I understand pain and discomfort too, and I am offering a suggestion for a techique that works amazingly well for me. The technique lays down a few basic assumtions but I would not call them a systematic belief. My own suffering has been reduced by the practice. I am actually more of a caring person than a competative person. I do not pursue competition, it is enough for me to compete for job positions, bids on houses and things that are few and far between. I prefer to share perspectives, to synthesize, not to divide.
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Icelander
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But...gripe on if that is what you want to be - a griping mind living on pain.
You said this to me. You inferred that I was griping. Are you getting senile? It happens.
Where did I say that I was describing my particular form of discomfort?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (09/22/07 01:45 PM)
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Afraid of dying? [Re: Icelander]
#7440664 - 09/22/07 02:22 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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"Is it not also the fear of living and breathing through the pain and heartache of all the unresolved shit that nags one in the quiet hours. All the chances not taken, the things not done and said, the moments and hours wasted from cowardice. It's the inability to live with what is and what little you have and the great mystery that cannot be known and derive sustenance from that."
Pardon me if I misinterpreted these words as griping about the discomfort of existential malaise.
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Icelander
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You are excused.(just watch it next time buddy) I wasn't talking about myself in the present or myself in particular. I was just sharing a little experience. My goal was to bring awareness to certain unconscious human programs. Not to gripe about anything; the opposite in fact.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (09/22/07 02:29 PM)
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backfromthedead
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Re: Afraid of dying? [Re: Veritas]
#7447287 - 09/24/07 11:03 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Veritas: "Perhaps we are afraid to die before we have truly lived? And perhaps we do not truly live because we still cherish the belief that, somehow, we will not die?"
Crazy. I have found that an acceptance of death is essential. This comes from ?truly living?, IMO, after a peculiar experience that allows you to ?truly live?. Feels like you are dying. Died. At a certain point you have to let go with the belief at the time that you probably won't come back. This in my mind is the practice that shamanism talks about. An initiation into something... Mental illness?? I feel that a subjective death will produce less fear while undergoing the physical process. Not that its easy and fun or... Not that they have anything whatsoever to do with one another, or they might, but it gives you the piece of mind that is missing and sought, imo, however illusory. Maybe it just scares you shit-less and pushes your pain/fear tolerance up a few notches.
Oh, but don't delude yourself by believing in unanswerable questions and unsubstantiated beliefs... After all we are only after ultimate truth right?? Before we die. Good luck. How do we know that this experience is not it, for real. At least part of it?? Or has something to do with it?? Does it matter if we can't know for sure?? The experience itself pins a faith in something more on you. Is this not what we are after?? Or are we so far down that path that its over?? [ERROR: COULDN'T LOAD PROGRAM] Doesn't work like that. I feel that the world is conspiring to both shine light on this FACT and further obscure it from view.
Seems important to rise from the dead somehow. In a truly subjective sense. I feel that this was KNOWN at one time, still is, what the... HELL??
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Grok
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Re: Afraid of dying? [Re: Icelander]
#7447615 - 09/24/07 12:58 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: If you were really looking that "forward" to it as one looks to something one wants and likes then you would make appropriate steps to quickly reach your goal. Death anxiety lies sleeping beneath such statements IMO.
Nonsense. It's not like I won't die. What I'm saying as that I can accept death when it arrives, no matter how unexpectedly or soon...and with a shit eatin grin. Life thusfar has been 100% lethal for every organism who partook in it. I don't think I need to go out of my way to find death. To me it's more like I can choose to do whatever I want with my life and know that in the end I've lost nothing by making the choices I have. Our own beingness is a statement of our desire to live, and that's what I want to do now. Likewise I view death as our desire to die being fulfilled.
You have even said yourself that you'd not want to live forever on this rock. How is that not saying that you want to die? Guess you better stop wearing a seatbelt or looking both ways when crossing the street lest you not walk your talk.
You're just personifying your beliefs on me. IMO. Not everyone is a hopeless slave to animalistic death anxiety as it seems you believe. I know I'll be goin out with a smile. Guess when I die we'll see if I'm talking out my ass or not.
-------------------- Entropy is increasing. To send me a PM, go to my journal
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Icelander
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Re: Afraid of dying? [Re: Grok]
#7447827 - 09/24/07 02:01 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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.and with a shit eatin grin.
And you know how you will act in the future when experiencing something you never have before how?
Not everyone is a hopeless slave to animalistic death anxiety as it seems you believe.
Here's where I disagree to some extent with this statement. I believe even the best and calmest of use will experience death anxiety. Now as I have stated the degree to which life is enjoyed and experienced is the degree to which one adopts the most skillful methods of dealing with death anxiety. The fact that one wears a seatbelt at all or looks before crossing is evidence of fear of death. I don't see it as a negative but rather as a fact of life. IMO those who deal best with it are those who explore it at every turn of the page.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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BlueCoyote
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Re: Afraid of dying? [Re: Icelander]
#7447872 - 09/24/07 02:14 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I think, all this death anxiety stuff is super fluous, because if one is dead, one either doesn't experience anything anymore, or one experiences everything absolutely different. In no way one's experience will be directly connected through the dead bodys' sensations, because it produces no internal sensations anymore. So, there is no reason to be afraid of death, because we will experience it different, if at all.
You mean 'Dying-Anxiety'. But as long as we live, we are not totally dead, only in specific contexts (see other threads) 
You're a Dead Man already ?
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redgreenvines
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Re: Afraid of dying? [Re: BlueCoyote]
#7447965 - 09/24/07 02:49 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I also think it is a mistake you can be afraid of things working badly. it's real, shows you care.
and you can be terminated without resolving something you care about resolving. and so it seems a discomfort about the whole issue.
but really we have to see that nothing is ever resolved though causes can be furthered (in good works).
this is not to say life is meaningless, because meaning is not about resolutions. meaning is from likenesses, resonance, layers in synchrony, music and form, like dance.
and the dance goes on.
if you appreciate dance in this way the gestalt dance all about us then you will have no fear of unresolved life:
over time you will be sucked into the air or sucked into the ground the last steps are easy and the dance will continue with that and after that.
will they applaud? (stage fright?)
some lasting things can be tried... art to dance now and later gardens to dance now and later waterworks that benefit life to dance now and later etc.
--------------------
_ 🧠 _
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Icelander
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Re: Afraid of dying? [Re: Icelander]
#7448132 - 09/24/07 03:37 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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that nothing is ever resolved though causes can be furthered
Seems so.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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evolprim
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Re: Afraid of dying? [Re: Icelander]
#7460357 - 09/27/07 01:24 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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i think all our belief systems are motivated by our fear of the unknown. NOBODY knows anything including what comes after our deaths. and everyone is just trying to explain it away to make the situation more comfortable.
in light of this all you can say is hakuna matata(no worries) and try to live by this
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Afraid of dying? [Re: evolprim]
#7460439 - 09/27/07 01:54 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
NOBODY knows anything including what comes after our deaths.
NOBODY says, "Your body decomposes back into its constituent parts. This fact is verifiable by anyone. Any information stored in the neuronal array is lost forever."
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Icelander
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You mean Lost in Space Will Robinson?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
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Re: Afraid of dying? [Re: evolprim]
#7460740 - 09/27/07 02:59 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
evolprim said: i think all our belief systems are motivated by our fear of the unknown. NOBODY knows anything including what comes after our deaths. and everyone is just trying to explain it away to make the situation more comfortable.
in light of this all you can say is hakuna matata(no worries) and try to live by this
Sanginalanga (no worries in Fiji, although I spelled it phonetically )
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Alion



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Re: Afraid of dying? [Re: Icelander]
#7460742 - 09/27/07 02:59 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Nope, im not because if im dead i really wont care about it.
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Icelander
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Re: Afraid of dying? [Re: Alion]
#7460751 - 09/27/07 03:02 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Your post doesn't make sense as it's the fear of dying I'm talking about and this happens before death.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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redgreenvines
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Re: Afraid of dying? [Re: Icelander]
#7462290 - 09/27/07 09:37 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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isn't it always just a bit before death?
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wps
Well-PaidScientist


Registered: 09/22/07
Posts: 579
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I'm in my mid-20's and I already feel old.
I'd say I'm much more afraid of the constant pain and deterioration that age will bring than I am afraid of death.
at least death is painless. you can't say the same thing about life.
-------------------- "America touts itself as the land of the free, but the number one freedom that you and I have is the freedom to enter into a subservient role in the workplace. Once you exercise this freedom you've lost all control over what you do, what is produced, and how it is produced. And in the end, the product doesn't belong to you. The only way you can avoid bosses and jobs is if you don't care about making a living. Which leads to the second freedom: the freedom to starve." - Tom Morello
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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no, why would it be?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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