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BrAiN
Art Fag

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Is anyone here a European citizen? Health Care Q
#7433168 - 09/20/07 04:13 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Is anyone in here a citizen of European country? If so, can you describe what your health care system is like? How much extra you pay in taxes? How great is the health care system? Is it really free?
The reason I ask is that we here in America have this fairy tale idea about a lot of European countries having "free health care" (if you don't count taxes). I keep talking to people from the UK and they keep telling me it isn't quite as black and white as it seems to us Americans.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Posts: 81,741
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Re: Is anyone here a European citizen? Health Care Q [Re: BrAiN]
#7433643 - 09/20/07 06:04 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
BrAiN said: I keep talking to people from the UK and they keep telling me it isn't quite as black and white as it seems to us Americans.
Speak for yourself please. You are by no means representative of "Americans".
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BrAiN
Art Fag

Registered: 03/01/01
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Re: Is anyone here a European citizen? Health Care Q [Re: zappaisgod]
#7433654 - 09/20/07 06:11 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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chill man.. i'm just trying to get the truth
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psilomonkey
Twisted brainwrong of a oneoff man mental

Registered: 08/08/03
Posts: 812
Loc: Airstrip One
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Re: Is anyone here a European citizen? Health Care Q [Re: BrAiN]
#7435225 - 09/21/07 03:14 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I live in the UK, where we have the National Health Service (NHS), and it is in no way a 'black and white'. It is free at the point of use, and not means tested, with the exception of a modest 6UKP charge per item for a months supply of a prescription drug.
This article in Wikipedia covers most of the history and technical background of the NHS better than I could in this short post.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Health_Service
The cost of the NHS
The NHS is funded 100% from taxes, at an estimated cost of 92-104 billion UKP a year. There are 60M people living in the UK, around 50% of that are paying Income Tax and NI. So I estimate the average cost to be around 3,400 UKP a year per tax-payer.
I have mixed feelings on the NHS, I am 33 years old and a higher-rate tax payer, so I pay a lot in tax, much more than the average. I also have private medical insurance, although despite this I used the NHS for two operations that required general anesthetic, which I will get to later.
The NHS and social security is supposed to be payed for by a tax called National Insurance (NI). I see a deduction of around 3,500 UKP a year as a 'employee NI contribution', this is the upper capped rate.
However there is an additional 'employer contribution' which does not appear on my wage slip, and is not capped, it is payed at 12.8% of income. So I am really paying about 11,500 UKP a year in NI.
This is in effect a trick to hide to true cost from people, as if my employer did not have to pay that tax it could be in my pocket.
In addition to NI, I pay Income Tax of around 18,000 UKP and local tax of 1,400 a year.
So if I look at is in pure personal value for money terms, I can't say I am getting value for money, as I am paying a great deal for others in addition to myself.
My Experience of using the NHS.
I will give you an account of my most serious use of the NHS, which started with a retinal detachment, forgive me if this is a bit TMI. I went to see a private practitioner who diagnosed the problem, he asked me if I had insurance, which I did. However he told me in his option private sector care would probably not be up to the standard Moorfields, a NHS specialist eye hospital in London could offer.
He called the hospital and after some telephone battles and being bounced from person to person got me admitted.In retrospect I would be quicker if I had just walked into the A&E department at Moorfields.
After some tests they told me that the retina had detached due to over-pressure in the eye that had been present for quite some time, and that a second operation was likely to be required. I stayed overnight and they operated within 12 hours saving most of the sight in my right eye. A month or so later I had the second operation. On both occasions, I did not have to part with a penny except for some eye-drops, which I paid the standard 6ukp prescription charge per item. I would not have paid if I were on a low income. I did lookup the drugs on the internet and found they retailed for an average of 30 ukp each.
A visit to my local doctor is free, although its quite hard to find a NHS dentist, and the work they will do on the NHS is limited. Yes, I know what you Americans think about the general state of British teeth!
My thoughts
Politically most Brits would consider me right of center, but I think taking into account the political relativity of UK/US politics, most Americans would consider me centre/left. I don't object in principle to my taxes paying for others, but there are limits, I want to see them used efficiently and where there is a genuine need. I have a lot less of a problem with paying for health and education than I do with welfare.
Access to NHS is not means tests, so I can benefit from what I pay in, and have.
In general the NHS offers an excellent clinical care. The British media loves to pick fault with everything, so the picture you get from the media is a lot poorer than you would get from people that have actually used the NHS.
The problems facing the NHS are mainly to do with efficiency and finance. The NHS is an administrative behemoth, the 3rd largest employer in the world. Far the greatest criticism I level at the NHS is that it is over-centralized and bureaucratic. Ask any clinical practitioner in the NHS and they will tell you that there are a dozen things that could be done to improve efficiency, but can't be done without central approval, which is near on impossible to obtain.
There is great concern over the sustainability of the NHS in its current from, health tourism and bureaucracy is putting tremendous pressure on the NHS.
I don't think you can directly compare the NHS with the health care in America. They have developed in a significantly different way over the last 60 years, and the situation of the ground is profoundly different.
The existence of the NHS has had a profound impact of the development of private sector medical care in the UK, which is no where near the standard of that in the US. The UK private sector tends to be good at providing diagnostic procedures such as scans, tests, elderly accommodation and high standard ward care.
There can be long waits for some procedures on the NHS. Many people that require a complex procedures that are to be privately funded, travel outside the UK, most notably to the US.
The NHS is able to provide care at approximately half the overall cost of that in the US, which I put down to the absence of insurance companies in funding, and the immense purchasing power the NHS has with the drug companies. Drugs make up over half the cost of running the NHS.
I really don't see how Hillary's proposals will lower the cost of health care in the US.
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BrAiN
Art Fag

Registered: 03/01/01
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Re: Is anyone here a European citizen? Health Care Q [Re: psilomonkey]
#7435641 - 09/21/07 08:26 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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There's a stereotype Americans have of the British health care system that it takes forever to get treated.
Although here. it's pretty much the same even with private insurance. My fiance' has one of the best plans that Kaiser Permanente has to offer. She has severe pains in her arm which appears to be tendonitis.
Just to figure out the problem she first had to schedule an appt with her primary care physicial just to get a referral. That took a week. Then after the referral to the orthopedic we had to wait 3 weeks to see the orthopedic... which took a look at her for 5minutes and just referred her to a neurologist... so now we have to wait 3 more weeks to get in with the neurologist...
So almost 2 months to see someone because of the beaurocracy... which I think is just the health insurance company's way of procrastinating because the longer they push back an operation, the more money they make off you in monthly premiums before they finally operate on you.
Damned if you do, damned if you don't. A lot of people have the idea that a gov't run system would add to the beaurocracy... I think the fact that a private company is out to make profit adds more beaurocracy.
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psilomonkey
Twisted brainwrong of a oneoff man mental

Registered: 08/08/03
Posts: 812
Loc: Airstrip One
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Re: Is anyone here a European citizen? Health Care Q [Re: BrAiN]
#7436706 - 09/21/07 01:49 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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That's not a totally incorrect view to have of the NHS.
In many cases that are not life threatening, or there is little to be lost by a delay, other than pain and discomfort, you have to wait. I had to have a impacted wisdom tooth that had gone bad, removed a few years ago. I got offered a 'choice' of local or general anesthetic, and was informed that they could see me in 2 weeks for the local, or 3 months for the general. It hurt and I decided it would be a bad idea to stay on rather too pleasant codeine pills they gave me for 3 months, so I opted for the local, which was no big deal really.
But then if I had been faced with a theater bill, I would have taken the local anyhow.
Hip replacements were the subject of long waits, sometimes years, often elderly patients, I suspect that they may have been hoping would shuffle off the mortal coil before they needed to operate. But after receiving a lot of flak, it became a political issue and is no longer such a big issue.
Waiting times increased massively over the time the Thatcher government was in power, but that was mainly down to a deliberate strategy of chronic underfunding. They dropped when Labour took power and the NHS received a huge funding boost.
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Arp
roving mycophagist


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Re: Is anyone here a European citizen? Health Care Q [Re: psilomonkey]
#7436749 - 09/21/07 02:00 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Whut? Wait two weeks to have a bad tooth pulled?
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psilomonkey
Twisted brainwrong of a oneoff man mental

Registered: 08/08/03
Posts: 812
Loc: Airstrip One
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Re: Is anyone here a European citizen? Health Care Q [Re: Arp]
#7436797 - 09/21/07 02:13 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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To be fair, it was impacted into my jaw bone, my private dentist would not go near it. He said there was a real risk of nerve damage, and it was best done in a hospital. I had to have loads of x-rays including a 3d scan before they started.
The Op took around 2 1/2 hours.
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champ
pudding pop



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Re: Is anyone here a European citizen? Health Care Q [Re: BrAiN]
#7437004 - 09/21/07 02:55 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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As for the taxes thing...I've lived in both US and in Holland. In Holland my taxes were about 10% higher. In return, I got an almost free Master's degree (had to pay about $1200 total for 2 years) and health insurance that cost about $60/month. And cheap rent, kick-ass municipal services, free legal help when I was an illegal alien, decently paved streets, bicycle lanes, efficient trash collection and polite police officers.
Here in America I'm paying 38% taxes but I'll soon be paying $600/month for my student loans, as well as about $400/month in health care costs assuming I never actually go to the doctor or have anything wrong with me because with co-pays and deductibles I end up still paying more than I ever paid in Holland. For routine care in Amsterdam, like a check-up or blood test there was never any wait. One time I had a stomach parasite and was very pleased with the care.
I far prefer their system and I think that if our government was less corrupt we'd have a lot more of our tax dollars working for the good of the people and the nation. That's the main difference, is that our government is truly incompetent and corrupt in comparison to many European governments.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Is anyone here a European citizen? Health Care Q [Re: champ]
#7439840 - 09/22/07 09:20 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Of course you prefer their tax system. You were the beneficiary of it and not the payer. Of course, I'm quite sure your tax rates would have risen as your income increased but you left after you got your titty so you totally fucked them. Let's see illegal alien comes, gets free ed, health care, and legal advice and then ......splits. "So long and thanks for all the fish". If you were the least bit honorable you would go back. Since it's so great there, why ARE you here?
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Annapurna1
liberal pussy


Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
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Re: Is anyone here a European citizen? Health Care Q [Re: zappaisgod]
#7440281 - 09/22/07 11:56 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
In Holland my taxes were about 10% higher.
that means he paid the taxes for the services he received...of course conservatives consider it immoral and un-american to pay taxes to fund education..healthcare..or bridges...in this country..our taxes go to fund armed thugs to rob other countries abroad and beat us with a stick at home.. both of which drive up healthcare costs even more (kickbacks..anyone??)...this would be called "armed robbery and racketeering" under the rule of law...but we dont live under the rule of law.. we live under the rule of republicans.. who dont even bother to thank us for all the fish (since when does a robber say "thanks")...
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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...
Edited by Annapurna1 (09/22/07 12:45 PM)
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BrAiN
Art Fag

Registered: 03/01/01
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Re: Is anyone here a European citizen? Health Care Q [Re: zappaisgod]
#7440684 - 09/22/07 02:29 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: Of course you prefer their tax system. You were the beneficiary of it and not the payer. Of course, I'm quite sure your tax rates would have risen as your income increased but you left after you got your titty so you totally fucked them. Let's see illegal alien comes, gets free ed, health care, and legal advice and then ......splits. "So long and thanks for all the fish". If you were the least bit honorable you would go back. Since it's so great there, why ARE you here?
What the hell is your problem? I asked for someone in here who lives in Europe to give their experience. All this guy did was give his experience and say which he prefers and you start acting like a little baby.
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champ
pudding pop



Registered: 06/27/01
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Re: Is anyone here a European citizen? Health Care Q [Re: zappaisgod]
#7441248 - 09/22/07 05:36 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yes, I paid taxes and directly benefited from them. Mathematically, the amount of taxes I paid relative to the benefits I received was much more favorable in Amsterdam than it is anywhere I've ever been in America.
The reason I left was because when I graduated from school and my working papers expired I had to be illegally there and overstay my visa, which I did for a while but not forever. Also, I did miss the US in spite of all its problems--after a long time in another country you start to get alienated and miss your family, etc.
I totally understand why people in America don't want the federal government to run things--because they do a shitty job with almost everything. I don't really think I want to pay more taxes in America and have the government controlling more of my life because they suck and the system is rotten to the core. In NL, if the government fucks up too bad---they're OUT. The government works for the people, not the other way around. It's not some utopia by a long shot, but it works out okay in the day to day.
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ArcofaJourney
Internaltransportationdevice


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Re: Is anyone here a European citizen? Health Care Q [Re: champ]
#7441398 - 09/22/07 06:22 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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We've had this debate a million times here. And it always reverts back to name calling and a battle of links.
All i'll say now (again) is that i've lived in both Europe and America, working basically the same job for the same company. The job is why i moved to Europe in the first place. In America i had no health care because the job could not offer it. So i viewed it as a good thing when i was covered in Europe (not naming country.) The extra taxes were worth it to me because A) the safety net and B) when i needed surgery i didn't have to live on the streets due to the cost.
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Andy21
Armchairanarchist

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Re: Is anyone here a European citizen? Health Care Q [Re: BrAiN]
#7444389 - 09/23/07 03:08 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I live in the UK, I have lived in the US also for a year. The tax I pay is pretty high. I earn $3060 a month and the tax I paid this month was $434.96. I want to present you with a realistic picture of how our NHS currently functions. I will use the case of Tony Wilson who died a month or so ago to illustrate my feelings. He founded the succesful music label Factory Records and was a well known journalist in the Manchester area. After developing renal cancer a while back, Wilson's doctors recommended he take the drug Sunitinib (aka Sutent), the £3,500 per month cost of which was not funded by the Manchester Primary Care Trust. He was turned down by the NHS, while patients being treated alongside him at the Christie Hospital and living just a few miles away in Cheshire received funding for the therapy. A number of Wilson's music industry friends, including the Happy Mondays former manager Nathan McGough and their current manager, Elliot Rashman, formed a fund to help pay for Wilson's medical treatment. The sickening part is that a friend of mine who suffered self esteem issues was given breast implants free of charge by our local Primary Care Trust recently, yet this potentially life saving treatment was denied someone because they lived in a specific area in order to balance the books of the local Primary Care Trust. Large areas of the NHS have been infected by the numbers game mentality so prevalent in many of our bureaucratic systems (see police, education etc), whereby staff are given targets to achieve certain goals regardless of whether the achievement of those goals is in the patient's long term best interest. Targets are then quoted as statistics by politicians to prove what a great job they are doing. My grandmother for example will soon be sent home from hospital after a heart attack despite the fact that her care has not included sufficient physical therapy in order to strengthen her muscles to get her walking again (muscles which have atrophied due to lying in a hospital bed). My frail grandfather will be expected to care for her. She is being sent home to meet bed clearance targets. Having said all that I am comforted that I and others can get medical care, free at the point of need regardless of what position we are in financially. I take the view that to base someones right to survive on their ability to earn and pay for treatment is both inhuman and immoral. I would rather see institutional changes in our current system than it's destruction.
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BrAiN
Art Fag

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Re: Is anyone here a European citizen? Health Care Q [Re: Andy21]
#7446771 - 09/24/07 07:34 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Andy21 said: I live in the UK, I have lived in the US also for a year. The tax I pay is pretty high. I earn $3060 a month and the tax I paid this month was $434.96. I want to present you with a realistic picture of how our NHS currently functions. I will use the case of Tony Wilson who died a month or so ago to illustrate my feelings. He founded the succesful music label Factory Records and was a well known journalist in the Manchester area. After developing renal cancer a while back, Wilson's doctors recommended he take the drug Sunitinib (aka Sutent), the £3,500 per month cost of which was not funded by the Manchester Primary Care Trust. He was turned down by the NHS, while patients being treated alongside him at the Christie Hospital and living just a few miles away in Cheshire received funding for the therapy. A number of Wilson's music industry friends, including the Happy Mondays former manager Nathan McGough and their current manager, Elliot Rashman, formed a fund to help pay for Wilson's medical treatment. The sickening part is that a friend of mine who suffered self esteem issues was given breast implants free of charge by our local Primary Care Trust recently, yet this potentially life saving treatment was denied someone because they lived in a specific area in order to balance the books of the local Primary Care Trust. Large areas of the NHS have been infected by the numbers game mentality so prevalent in many of our bureaucratic systems (see police, education etc), whereby staff are given targets to achieve certain goals regardless of whether the achievement of those goals is in the patient's long term best interest. Targets are then quoted as statistics by politicians to prove what a great job they are doing. My grandmother for example will soon be sent home from hospital after a heart attack despite the fact that her care has not included sufficient physical therapy in order to strengthen her muscles to get her walking again (muscles which have atrophied due to lying in a hospital bed). My frail grandfather will be expected to care for her. She is being sent home to meet bed clearance targets. Having said all that I am comforted that I and others can get medical care, free at the point of need regardless of what position we are in financially. I take the view that to base someones right to survive on their ability to earn and pay for treatment is both inhuman and immoral. I would rather see institutional changes in our current system than it's destruction.
I just read about Tony Wilson. I'm a big fan of Joy Division and 24 hour party ppl is one of my favorite movies.
I didn't even know he was dead until I read an article the other day.
Before Wilson died he said: "This (Sutent) is my only real option. It is not a cure but can hold the cancer back, so I will probably be on it until I die ... When they said I would have to pay £3,500 for the drugs each month, I thought where am I going to find the money? I'm the one person in this industry who famously has never made any money ... I used to say some people make money and some make history - which is very funny until you find you can't afford to keep yourself alive ... I've never paid for private healthcare because I'm a socialist. Now I find you can get tummy tucks and cosmetic surgery on the NHS but not the drugs I need to stay alive. It is a scandal"
Sure it sounds shitty... but it's almost the same out here. My girl was on workman's comp, not being able to do her job. She couldnt pay into her company insurance anymore and the workman's comp was dicking her movie because the comp will deny anything that's expensive and try to find any way out of it.
I'd imagine that no matter who runs the health care (gov't or insurance companies) someone's going to get dicked one way or another. If both are equally shit, and both cost the same (either out of pocket or on taxes) shit.. might as well pick the system that covers more people. I actually ended up having dinner this weekend with a Brit and talked about this. He said it's pretty much the same out here as in the UK. The quality of service is about the same, the corruption and the amount you end up paying in taxes is pretty much the same. Just seems like a lot less worrying you have to do if it's universal. Everyone bitches about "Why should I have to pay for someone else" thinking they're only going to be supporting welfare queens... until they end up getting injured themselves and need it..
Almost sounds like the arguments more parents give.. talking about how drug addicts should be shot or locked on a private island, acting like they're shit doesn't stink.. until they find out their own kids are users.
Just seems like some of the policies here in America aren't ever going to change because it helps with population control.
But that's just my opinion.
This does
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Andy21
Armchairanarchist

Registered: 01/01/06
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Re: Is anyone here a European citizen? Health Care Q [Re: BrAiN]
#7447305 - 09/24/07 11:09 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yeah I agree, I like the fact that if I get hit by a car later then I am glad the doctors wont be thinking about what insurance coverage I have. It is very easy to lack empathy for the sick when you are healthy.
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