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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Who are you really? [Re: stellar renegade]
    #7432581 - 09/20/07 02:19 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

stellar renegade said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Here's my guess. You (and I) are a lot of accidental programs.


Why do you say 'accidental'? :wink:

Quote:

Icelander said:
You are not really special or different from the mass of humanity. Yes, I know that being an individual there is no one else exactly like you, just like a snowflake, but the difference is so fucking slight that it's not too important. We think we are important because mommy and daddy told us we were and that was a lie. Then when mommy and daddy were gone we hooked on to all kinds of other lies, like God, and Country, and football team and Coke or Pepsi.

Castaneda once had a job in a psyche dept reviewing interviews on tape with patients, as they were going to toss most of  them. He became fascinated and then horrified listening to them. He became aware that all their stories were really all his stories and he was just like the mass in every way except the details of how it came together.

I have really become aware of this and focus on this daily. I think it is one of the biggest challenges I have ever taken on to attempt to grok this in fullness. I am really just another ant in the colony and no more important in any way as far as I can tell. The impact of this on my life has been like taking a heroic dose of psychedelics that will not go away. All my underpinnings of belief have been severely challenged and are breaking apart and I am left stepping into the void not knowing if there is anything at all solid under my feet.

What motivates one if one is not special and has no god or cosmos looking out personally for their welfare? When all the "spiritual" musings are seen to be nothing more than death anxiety. What becomes the reason for living beyond pure animal survival?



I guess I'm finding this difficult... how does being like everyone else make us not-so special?  I think it makes us even more special.  We are miraculous beings, indeed.  If you live inside a philosophical cave (as I have often done) with barely any sunlight drifting through the dim shades, then you may believe there is nothing much to us.  But it's our similarities that are so potent, otherwise we would not be able to perceive our differences.  This can be seen at least by the fact that we perceive that we are distinct from one another in the first place.  If we weren't different, why would it be such a big deal that we are the same?

I don't think the similarities are depressing.  It's the reason I can connect with that poor oppressed family over in China that can't have more than two children.  I have never had a kid, but I understand the delight of children, and of giving birth to great works of poetry or art, and the depression of having those feelings suppressed.  We're all connected, and that's what makes this whole big game that much more appealing.  Sure, we're the same, but it's only through our differences that these similarities exist.

I am the reverberation of the whole, echoing back its strength in a slightly variating hue, giving everyone else meaning again.  I am a piece in the orchestra.  I am another species in the animal kingdom.

It is by the  body that we  come  into  contact with Nature, with our fellowmen, with all their revelations to us. It is  through the body that we receive all the lessons of passion, of suffering, of  love,  of beauty, of science. It is through  the  body that  we  are both  trained  outward from ourselves, and driven inward into our deepest selves to find God.  There is glory and might in this vital evanescence, this slow glacierlike flow of clothing and  revealing matter, this  ever  uptossed  rainbow  of  tangible humanity. It is no less of God's making than  the  spirit that is clothed therein.
-George MacDonald
(yes, I love the dude)




I say accidental because it was just chance that we got these particular programs instilled in us.

I didn't mean to imply that being similar or unimportant is a negative. I made this post to point out that what we believe about ourselves does not make us of special importance to the universe at large. As in: there is a creator that is thinking just about our situation and problems etc. And that this belief is an inhibition to a possible potential beyond the cultural programming. Life in the hive doesn't appeal to me. What is outside the box (if anything) is worth the risk of this personal alienation from society for me.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinefiggusfiddus
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Registered: 02/02/07
Posts: 2,126
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Re: Who are you really? [Re: Icelander]
    #7433017 - 09/20/07 03:44 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I think you're liable to find "the hive" is one of the most interesting and complicated things on the planet. It's easy to objectify it, but that's usually just our way of exerting our importance--and that's the kind of thing you're critcizing, right? :smile:

Things are only as similar as you make them. An apple isn't a fire hydrant.


--------------------
FGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDS
FGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDS
FGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDS


Edited by figgusfiddus (09/20/07 03:45 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Who are you really? [Re: figgusfiddus]
    #7433142 - 09/20/07 04:10 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Maybe (I don't know), but I think the hive "mentality" is a limiting factor on experience. Not the hive itself but our blind and unconscious allegiance to it.

I don't consider myself better or worse then anyone else when it comes right down to it. Here I'm noticing something and thinking about it. It the end it's all equal. I just think I may be short changing my life experience by not looking deeply into this and drawing my own conclusions.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
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Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
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Re: Who are you really? [Re: Icelander]
    #7433746 - 09/20/07 06:46 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Unbridled undefined.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflinePhanTomCat
Teh Cat....
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Posts: 5,908
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Re: Who are you really? [Re: Icelander]
    #7433809 - 09/20/07 07:09 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Who are you really?

Would you like to borrow a few of the masks that I will not be wearing today.....?
Maybe we could trade a few.... See how they fit.....


And, you ARE special..... ....Just like everyone else.....


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
Male

Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
Re: Who are you really? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7434431 - 09/20/07 09:37 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Humility and pride are the same thing.

If a person is truly proud, they are also humble. If someone thinks they are proud, and they aren't humble, they aren't actually proud, they're being arrogant. If a person is in self-pity, they aren't humble, they are being arrogant.

Pity and arrogance are the same thing.

A person with low self esteem will always believe a person with high self esteem is arrogant. So, anyone who has pity for themselves also believes they are superior, which is arrogance.

So, is there a void between pride and arrogance where there is no feeling of being special? Or is our specialness only a matter of humility or self pity?

Perhaps a person who is truly proud, doesn't think about whether they are proud or not?

If I "think" I'm special, does that automatically vault me into arrogance?

I think I feel arrogant right now, but perhaps that's just self pity.:tongue:


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


Edited by Rahz (09/20/07 09:39 PM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Who are you really? [Re: Icelander]
    #7434562 - 09/20/07 10:20 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

i like the opening post
i see what you are saying totally


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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Offlinestellar renegade
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Re: Who are you really? [Re: Icelander]
    #7434984 - 09/21/07 12:31 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I say accidental because it was just chance that we got these particular programs instilled in us.

I didn't mean to imply that being similar or unimportant is a negative. I made this post to point out that what we believe about ourselves does not make us of special importance to the universe at large. As in: there is a creator that is thinking just about our situation and problems etc. And that this belief is an inhibition to a possible potential beyond the cultural programming. Life in the hive doesn't appeal to me. What is outside the box (if anything) is worth the risk of this personal alienation from society for me.



Wait a second, I think I'm confused... so you're saying that we're not really inherently unique, but we can make ourselves so by stepping outside of the proverbial hive? Is it having that mindset that makes us non-special? I'm not sure I understand.

I also don't believe that anything is accidental, but that's a personal decision about how to view the universe that each person must come to on their own.


--------------------
"I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou

"To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald


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OfflineBard
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Re: Who are you really? [Re: Icelander]
    #7435360 - 09/21/07 04:50 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
We lie to ourselves almost all the time.




I like this sentence... We have to accept this, and become to like it this way. Human life is a big lie, or lots of lies, or whatever... A homeless person said this to me, well not me exactly, but my companion, a beautiful girl, I was lucky because maybe if she weren't there the homeless would only asked for money... So the homeless said: We have to learn to lie honestly... I still don't understand fully what he meant, but strong words... So this came to my mind reading your post. We can't escape the lies, so we have to do them well...


--------------------
So dreaming let's you know reality exists.



I don't belive. I fear.


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
Re: Who are you really? [Re: Icelander]
    #7435380 - 09/21/07 05:07 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

since we're quoting lyrics:

Quote:

I'm the first person, you're the second person, earlier today I was in the third person
Stop cursing, start diversing, Oedipus is bliss, the Sunshine will effect your mind
Stretch it out, don't doubt the amount, my brain is caught, I guess I'm just... blessed.
Trip Hoppin' so I flow like a stream...
It's just a dream.


Thus spake Forest For The Trees... :catman:





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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Who are you really? [Re: Bard]
    #7435868 - 09/21/07 09:46 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I think I know what he means. To lie honestly one must be fully aware of their motivations and accept them fully and honestly, knowing they are all lies.

The homeless are not all that way by circumstance. For some it is a looser prison then the grind.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (09/21/07 09:47 AM)


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InvisibleVeritas
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Posts: 11,089
Re: Who are you really? [Re: Icelander]
    #7435883 - 09/21/07 09:51 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I prefer "guesses" to lies. We may assert that things are factual and true though we don't know for certain. If we acknowledge that we are guessing, we can maintain the flexibility required to flow with the fluidity of our experience.


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Who are you really? [Re: stellar renegade]
    #7435886 - 09/21/07 09:53 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

stellar renegade said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
I say accidental because it was just chance that we got these particular programs instilled in us.

I didn't mean to imply that being similar or unimportant is a negative. I made this post to point out that what we believe about ourselves does not make us of special importance to the universe at large. As in: there is a creator that is thinking just about our situation and problems etc. And that this belief is an inhibition to a possible potential beyond the cultural programming. Life in the hive doesn't appeal to me. What is outside the box (if anything) is worth the risk of this personal alienation from society for me.



Wait a second, I think I'm confused... so you're saying that we're not really inherently unique, but we can make ourselves so by stepping outside of the proverbial hive?  Is it having that mindset that makes us non-special?  I'm not sure I understand.

I also don't believe that anything is accidental, but that's a personal decision about how to view the universe that each person must come to on their own.




Don't worry, I'm confused too.:monkeydance:

I'm not talking about making oneself unique. I'm talking about delving into our possible potential outside of the cultural programs given at birth and beyond.

Nothing accidental as far as your intention huh? So you decided who your parents were going to be? What culture you were born into? You decided you would be born human rather than a tree? Wow! what are you doing posting here?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Posts: 6,697
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Re: Who are you really? [Re: Icelander]
    #7436158 - 09/21/07 11:18 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

One could call the difference, expressed with 'special', what makes it a meaning in some context and therefor important, 'talent' :grin:

At least for me it clears up most of the confusion :wink:

edit:Punktuation for better understanding.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


Edited by BlueCoyote (09/21/07 01:41 PM)


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