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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Who are you really?
    #7431776 - 09/20/07 11:10 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Here's my guess. You (and I) are a lot of accidental programs. You are basically the result of the early parenting and training you received. A great example of this is that most religious Americans are Christian and  most from the middle east are Muslim and etc, etc. It just depended on where you were born. You are not really special or different from the mass of humanity. Yes, I know that being an individual there is no one else exactly like you, just like a snowflake, but the difference is so fucking slight that it's not too important. We think we are important because mommy and daddy told us we were and that was a lie. Then when mommy and daddy were gone we hooked on to all kinds of other lies, like God, and Country, and football team and Coke or Pepsi.

Castaneda once had a job in a psyche dept reviewing interviews on tape with patients, as they were going to toss most of  them. He became fascinated and then horrified listening to them. He became aware that all their stories were really all his stories and he was just like the mass in every way except the details of how it came together.

I have really become aware of this and focus on this daily. I think it is one of the biggest challenges I have ever taken on to attempt to grok this in fullness. I am really just another ant in the colony and no more important in any way as far as I can tell. The impact of this on my life has been like taking a heroic dose of psychedelics that will not go away. All my underpinnings of belief have been severely challenged and are breaking apart and I am left stepping into the void not knowing if there is anything at all solid under my feet.

What motivates one if one is not special and has no god or cosmos looking out personally for their welfare? When all the "spiritual" musings are seen to be nothing more than death anxiety. What becomes the reason for living beyond pure animal survival?

This is a subject that is most difficult to pursue. Our programs run deep and are mostly unconsciousness. We lie to ourselves almost all the time. :monkeydance::mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Who are you really? [Re: Icelander]
    #7431927 - 09/20/07 11:48 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

"but the difference is so fucking slight that it's not too important"
That's an assumption. In the sum, it makes it important :wink:
It's about the right 'perspective' or 'context' in life, where one's specialty becomes important. Then one sees the differences of ones 'specialty' compared towards one other's again clearly (separation).
But I clearly understand you, I think, as it is a constant wombling in between the 'hive' and the 'ant' :wink: And it's 'good' to focus on the hive sometimes, for a while :heart:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineVisionary Tools
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Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 7,953
Last seen: 1 year, 7 months
Re: Who are you really? [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #7431963 - 09/20/07 11:57 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Too true. I'm aspergers/autistic and I love fixing machines. Way to break societal cliches.


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Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: Who are you really? [Re: Icelander]
    #7431972 - 09/20/07 11:58 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Here comes the water.

All I knew,
All I believed,
Crumbling images,
No longer comfort me.
I scramble to reach higher ground,
Order and sanity,
Something to comfort me.

Take what is mine,
Hold what is mine,
Suffocate what is mine,
Bury what's mine.
Soon the water will come
And claim what is mine.
I must leave it behind,
And climb to a new place now.

This ground is not the rock I thought it to be.

Thought I was high,
Thought I was free.
Thought I was there
Divine destiny.

I was wrong.
This changes everything.

Running away,
Running away,
I'm running away,
Running away,
I'm running away,
Running away,
I'm running away,
Running away.

I take what is mine,
Hold what is mine,
Suffocate what is mine,
Bury what's mine.
Soon the water will come
And claim what is mine.
I must leave it behind,
And climb to a new place.

Water's rising up on me.
The water is rising up on me.
Thought the sun would come deliver me,
But the truth has come to punish me instead.

Grounds break down right under me.
Cleanse and purge me
In the water.




--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
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Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
Re: Who are you really? [Re: Icelander]
    #7431980 - 09/20/07 12:00 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I am w-a-y more unique than you. I am a delightful & beautiful snowflake. Tra-la-la La-la. :fairy:


--------------------


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Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: Who are you really? [Re: Icelander]
    #7431984 - 09/20/07 12:01 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

What motivates one if one is not special and has no god or cosmos looking out personally for their welfare? When all the "spiritual" musings are seen to be nothing more than death anxiety. What becomes the reason for living beyond pure animal survival?




I don't know. Do we need a reason to live?


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Who are you really? [Re: dblaney]
    #7431996 - 09/20/07 12:03 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Do you? You post a lot of beliefs here. These beliefs might just be your reasons.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: Who are you really? [Re: Icelander]
    #7432061 - 09/20/07 12:22 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Well I don't know if I'd call them beliefs. I'd probably call them views. But whatever, I think that's totally semantic.

They could very well be my reasons sometimes. But the approach of trying to find some raison d'etre seems flawed to me. If you're alive, then you're just alive. It is what it is. Why would one try to find a purpose in life? Because just living life as it is, moment by moment, without adding any meaning or anything else to it, can be unnerving. I mean you just don't know what will happen next (for that matter, we never do, but we like to pretend that we do, for sure), and that can make anyone uneasy. So instead of simply being that uneasiness, we try to find something that will cover that up with meaning and purpose, such as pure animal survival, or fame, or wealth, or health, etc.

So that's my view. I suppose, if I had to articulate it, my raison d'etre is no raison d'etre. But to be honest, I do often identify with my views, and become attached to them.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Who are you really? [Re: dblaney]
    #7432069 - 09/20/07 12:24 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Honesty is good.:lol: I do often identify with my views, and become attached to them.

That's what this post is all about. This is what we are IMO. Views on things.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: Who are you really? [Re: Icelander]
    #7432098 - 09/20/07 12:30 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

This is what we are IMO. Views on things.




Definitely. But, only if we identify with them.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: Who are you really? [Re: Icelander]
    #7432151 - 09/20/07 12:39 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

What becomes the reason for living beyond pure animal survival?




Survival friggin rocks! It is the best game in town - waaaay better than football.


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Offlinefiggusfiddus
Arrogant Worm
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Registered: 02/02/07
Posts: 2,126
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Last seen: 15 years, 4 months
Re: Who are you really? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #7432217 - 09/20/07 12:55 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Oy, with the Chuck Palahniuk teen angst. It's a common, but purely emotional sort of mindset, one based less on a real observation than on a defeatist, depressive sort of "well, yeah, everything's different, but it's all the same, so let's just fuck it all" mentality.

Where do you think these environments came from? Where did religion come from? Where did Coke and Pepsi come from? We made them. And they made us. Everything is a product of and a participant in its environment. Terrible things, great things--they're all there, however you make them out to be, but above all things, you can't say it's boring. And if you do, you're forcing yourself into it. Get out and see some of it, go hitch-hiking, prostitute yourself on craigslist, do something insane, drastic, preferably only minimally life-threatening, and find out that there are lots of incredibly bizarre things in the world. They're not exactly hard to find.

Humanity is pretty amazing--at least by my subjective, human standards, sure--and I think we should all be pretty impressed with our own complexity. Or not, hey. We're all going to do what we're going to do, but I do think the complexity of it all is hard to miss, and easy to appreciate if you take the time to learn how.


--------------------
FGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDS
FGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDS
FGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDS


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Who are you really? [Re: dblaney]
    #7432343 - 09/20/07 01:28 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Definitely. But, only if we identify with them.


This could be the way around this problem.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (09/20/07 01:29 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Who are you really? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #7432352 - 09/20/07 01:30 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
Quote:

What becomes the reason for living beyond pure animal survival?




Survival friggin rocks! It is the best game in town - waaaay better than football.




Today it rocks. Tomorrow it could be extreme unrelenting pain from cancer or some emotional issue.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (09/20/07 01:30 PM)


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Who are you really? [Re: dblaney]
    #7432410 - 09/20/07 01:42 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

dblaney said:
Quote:

What motivates one if one is not special and has no god or cosmos looking out personally for their welfare? When all the "spiritual" musings are seen to be nothing more than death anxiety. What becomes the reason for living beyond pure animal survival?




I don't know. Do we need a reason to live?



We have 'us', existing :eek:, at least :wink:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleEternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance
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Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
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Re: Who are you really? [Re: Icelander]
    #7432451 - 09/20/07 01:50 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Programs as in automatic reactions and responses to certain stimuli and situations? I wish my programs had less control of me, the last time I had ego loss I had to endure a serious year long night of the soul because I basically had no ground to my being, I had become almost entirely programs!

Then the last time I took 2 hits of acid I was in physical pain, it felt like something was trying to rip itself out of me but I couldn't let go, I knew that the same thing was going to happen if I let go because I am so wrapped up in my beliefs, I felt like I would have to start all over again, basically the mind of a 3 year old - it was too scary.

This is all the result of serious death anxiety and the need to be important, something more than I am. Now I'm trying to take it slowly, be in nature at least an hour a day away from the city noise and maybe meditate a little... I'm really thinking of going to live in the forest for a year or something. These programmed reactions are so unnatural, they have nothing to do with present reality.


--------------------


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InvisibleIcelander
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Posts: 95,368
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Re: Who are you really? [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7432504 - 09/20/07 02:03 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I agree that it's a very good idea when confronting death anxiety and ones programs to take it slowly and carefully. Take it on and when you've pushed yourself a little take a rest. This is something IMO that can kill you dead if you aren't careful and wise about it. On the other hand if you avoid it you are as good as dead IMO anyway.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineLion
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Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 8,775
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Re: Who are you really? [Re: Icelander]
    #7432520 - 09/20/07 02:06 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Living is easy with eyes closed, misunderstanding all you see.
It's getting hard to be someone but it all works out.
It doesn't matter much to me.

Let me take you down, 'cause I'm going to Strawberry Fields.
Nothing is real and nothing to get hung about.
Strawberry Fields forever.


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


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Offlinestellar renegade
explorer ofmetaphysicaldepths
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Posts: 201
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Last seen: 13 years, 10 months
Re: Who are you really? [Re: Icelander]
    #7432528 - 09/20/07 02:07 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Here's my guess. You (and I) are a lot of accidental programs.


Why do you say 'accidental'? :wink:

Quote:

Icelander said:
You are not really special or different from the mass of humanity. Yes, I know that being an individual there is no one else exactly like you, just like a snowflake, but the difference is so fucking slight that it's not too important. We think we are important because mommy and daddy told us we were and that was a lie. Then when mommy and daddy were gone we hooked on to all kinds of other lies, like God, and Country, and football team and Coke or Pepsi.

Castaneda once had a job in a psyche dept reviewing interviews on tape with patients, as they were going to toss most of  them. He became fascinated and then horrified listening to them. He became aware that all their stories were really all his stories and he was just like the mass in every way except the details of how it came together.

I have really become aware of this and focus on this daily. I think it is one of the biggest challenges I have ever taken on to attempt to grok this in fullness. I am really just another ant in the colony and no more important in any way as far as I can tell. The impact of this on my life has been like taking a heroic dose of psychedelics that will not go away. All my underpinnings of belief have been severely challenged and are breaking apart and I am left stepping into the void not knowing if there is anything at all solid under my feet.

What motivates one if one is not special and has no god or cosmos looking out personally for their welfare? When all the "spiritual" musings are seen to be nothing more than death anxiety. What becomes the reason for living beyond pure animal survival?



I guess I'm finding this difficult... how does being like everyone else make us not-so special?  I think it makes us even more special.  We are miraculous beings, indeed.  If you live inside a philosophical cave (as I have often done) with barely any sunlight drifting through the dim shades, then you may believe there is nothing much to us.  But it's our similarities that are so potent, otherwise we would not be able to percieve our differences.  This can be seen at least by the fact that we percieve that we are distinct from one another in the first place.  If we weren't different, why would it be such a big deal that we are the same?

I don't think the similarities are depressing.  It's the reason I can connect with that poor oppressed family over in China that can't have more than two children.  I have never had a kid, but I understand the delight of children, and of giving birth to great works of poetry or art, and the depression of having those feelings suppressed.  We're all connected, and that's what makes this whole big game that much more appealing.  Sure, we're the same, but it's only through our differences that these similarities exist.

I am the reverberation of the whole, echoing back its strength in a slightly variating hue, giving everyone else meaning again.  I am a piece in the orchestra.  I am another species in the animal kingdom.

It is by the  body that we  come  into  contact with Nature, with our fellowmen, with all their revelations to us. It is  through the body that we receive all the lessons of passion, of suffering, of  love,  of beauty, of science. It is through  the  body that  we  are both  trained  outward from ourselves, and driven inward into our deepest selves to find God.  There is glory and might in this vital evanescence, this slow glacierlike flow of clothing and  revealing matter, this  ever  uptossed  rainbow  of  tangible humanity. It is no less of God's making than  the  spirit that is clothed therein.
-George MacDonald
(yes, I love the dude)


--------------------
"I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou

"To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
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Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
Re: Who are you really? [Re: Icelander]
    #7432529 - 09/20/07 02:08 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

You should have been a funeral director or undertaker. :reaper:

"Don't fear the reaper." ~ B.O.C.


--------------------


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