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OfflineSeekSalviaSee
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Registered: 09/19/07
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Redgreenvines Salvia insights!
    #7430532 - 09/19/07 11:07 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

(orginally I worte this as a PM, but decided 'why not post it' so that why its worded towrd one person (redgreenvines)

Hello my friend,
I was directed toward your writings on this forum by a fellow shroomry memeber. I'm particularly intrigued by your salvia research. You are really on to something with your frame stacking theory!
I remeber one of my more overwhelming salvia-extract experiences: it started out with a sensory impression or "moment", to use your vocabulary (just a quick note, I really like what your doing as far as trying to create a vocab. for talking about whats happening in inner-space and the workings of the cortex... for all the science terminology ciricumscribing every observable aspect of brain anatomy and phisiology, there seems to be a mysterious lack of verabage for the abstract perceptions and emotions we're all so familiar with. ) this initial moment begins buliding to the next thought. Something like "here comes the salvia"--then somehow i'm back to that intial moment of sparking the bowl, then it plays through that first thought "here comes the salvia", then having witnessed this recursion i think "man how can a plant do this?. Boom, i'm back to that intial moment-hit-here comes salvia-hows it doing this- (then I start getting a little freaked out, as this intially novel experience builds to something powerful and terrifying at times). This recursive dimension builds repeating maybe 15-20 times adding new thoughts/moments as it builds. Then I reach a state i call "lateral perception"- normal conciousness follows a linear motion past-present-future as a straight line starting at birth ending at death, "linear perception" we could say. At the peak of the salvia trance I feel I'm no longer witnessing front-to-back reality, but its as if i'm looking sideways across the breadth of the Moment. From this perspective, I see a fractal world that creates my existence not in a linear fashion I perceive in normal sobriety, but as a series of moments that stack like sections of a nautilus shell, where the inside of the spiral on the shell represents birth and the opening of the shell is the present moment. We noramlly experience the shell as the critter inside moving in and out of our memories within the walls of the shell. Salvia, in a high dose, seems to turn the shell on its side and allow a kind of cross-referencing of sensory-input and memory that appears to take place outside of time, or what we percieve as time making visable the entire spiral. I see myself as only that moment and its potential for eternity in its endless flux.
I beleive Salvia research to be of immense importance for advancing our understanding of the brain, our interconnectedness with nature, people, and ultimate reality. I'm curious to here your response. Keep up the good work!

After reading some of your posts here I was instantly reminded of a quote, "We are all so fascinated with recording things: taking photoraphs, writing them down, and above all remebering. Its a form of resonance. Beacuse you see if you don't remeber anything you don't know you're there, a person who had total amnesia and lived in a split-second only wouldn't know he was there. But to know that you're there you need an echo. There was a young man who said 'it seems that I know that I know, what I would like to see is the I that knows me when I know that know." -Alan Watts


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: Redgreenvines Salvia insights! [Re: SeekSalviaSee]
    #7431187 - 09/20/07 05:36 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

another fine introduction, thanks.
let me echo and resonate again then:

in answer to a pm, I did a quick utfse of "redgreenvines frames" and got
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/4946798#4946798
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/3061283#3061283
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/3519843
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/4101386#4101386
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/3512825#3512825

which was deliciously lazy on my part, but to answer the points raised above, this cohesive body of thought was conceived in 1973 derivative of buddhist Abhidhamma and modern neuroscience.

I agree that a sense of being at an angle to reality is involved when stoned or "twisted"

such as is depicted in this series:






in which longer fading of signal groups representing frames overlapp progressively as they diverge from a more steep fadeout angle to a longer sloped character.

Anyway, if you get into this stuff you will find I purposefully do not add any vocabulary, and I use common words such as feeling in a very strict way (to mean only pain, pleasure or indifference - as in body feeling - like abhidhamma does) yet I use sense in a way to encompass signals in the brain from all sources including memory (sense of memory - i.e. associative recall is a signal generator to the same extent as vision and touch)
I add cerebellum as a sense organ for the sense of interval, used not only to generate coordinated actions, and to help with anticipation of associated events, but also as a pure vibratory jamming device for when we need to concentrate on some partial sensory field.

So cerebrum is also a sense organ for the sense of memory which is a generator of signals (to itself).

Anyway, the result of combining analysis of abhidhamma, neuroscience and insight meditation, helped create a good model of cortex as a holographic association machine working in cycles of citta of frames of experience:
1- signals (in the experience frame or gestalt)
2- intereference (mix in the cortical plane - spreadout that crinkled cortex and it is a huge flat membrane)
3- memory fixation (to memory frame)

1- signals can be from any sense including memory recall
2- they combine and form interference which excites multiaxxon cells that spread out widely from the excitation points (key to holographic memory fixation)
3- cotemporally activated cortex cells are fixed together into a memory engram by the multiaxxoned cells.
(4- later reactivation of the same interference points by anysignals from any source combining - even jamming input from cerebellum- causes reactivation of the previously cotemporally fixed memory frame -
This is called association which is key in all aspects of psychological analysis
memory is associative from beginning to end, things are connected by links that are created this way and triggered this way.)

As for verbal practice, I refuse to use "feeling" for the sense of touch and this little practice keeps me on track with the rest of the idea of consciousness. But I do allow it to encroach with emotions which are body experience memory (with feeling) from associative triggers (signals - any sense will do) in the mind.


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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Invisibletruekimbo2
Cya later, friends.
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Re: Redgreenvines Salvia insights! [Re: redgreenvines]
    #7431204 - 09/20/07 05:51 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

redgreenvines has always been my favorite poster here.

i know what you're talking about with the sideways viewing things. what interested me is if you take that sideways world and arrange it front to back like the normal world you get what appears to be another reality or something that has rules and objects and entities just like the physical world.

i was never able to consciousessly make much use of this sideways world (although i did sense things that made itself known by sudden dark spots (unseen) in my unconscious that if i then reliquished control i would watch the dark spots in my unconscious interact with this world)
yeah so i hope that made sense, like i was saying i was never able to use it for anything, so i gave up exploration of it.
i learned i don't really have the desire to see things just find out whats see-able.

i've been meaning to ask redgreenvines, what do you get out of it?

oh yeah also i don't think this is just salvia that can allow for these perceptions.


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You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Redgreenvines Salvia insights! [Re: truekimbo2]
    #7431215 - 09/20/07 06:05 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

it is a refresher.
takes me back to the well in which I can see this kind of cosmos,
and in which I seem to have other "senses".

as for "is there a universe at right angles to this one..."

well when you are there that is the universe, which strangely seems pulled to an angle from this one, which strangely has events you can begin to predict that are unlike those in this universe...
strange and consistent memories too...

I would expect all that from the simple "frame stacking" model, no alternate external universe is required.

I should add that many artifacts of experiencing are in themselves signal generators (senses).
a calmed mind might notice in the angled universe that these new "senses" are consistent but peculiar to that place...


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Invisibletruekimbo2
Cya later, friends.
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Registered: 12/08/02
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Re: Redgreenvines Salvia insights! [Re: redgreenvines]
    #7431244 - 09/20/07 06:30 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

oh yeah, just wanted to add, my introduction to this viewpoint came from dxm.

i spent many nights sinking below my bed or into the walls and then winding up looking at reality from strange angles. (now you've got me thinking redgreenvines, i'm wondering if the reason i would always get trapped in the walls or the floor because my sensory input was limited to the rooms i was in, and those were the borders of space as far as my brain was concerned.)

on dxm i usually got computer circuit looking stuff, never fractals.

later maybe because of mushrooms i continued exploration of these other vantage points.


--------------------
You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Redgreenvines Salvia insights! [Re: truekimbo2]
    #7431257 - 09/20/07 06:37 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

body sense overlaooing and lingering with mental contents
same as set and setting


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Redgreenvines Salvia insights! [Re: SeekSalviaSee]
    #7431894 - 09/20/07 11:39 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Almost any kind of thinking can happen with Salvia. If you want to call it thinking.


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineSeekSalviaSee
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Registered: 09/19/07
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Re: Redgreenvines Salvia insights! [Re: SeekSalviaSee]
    #7432650 - 09/20/07 02:38 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Thanks for the quick response. There are so many good thinkers on this forum, I'm upset with myself for not joining earlier!

@Redgreeenvines- Wow! You are right on man. It's fascinating to hear about the connection of neuroscience and Buddhism. All throughout my private psychedelic research, Buddhism keeps popping up as the one source of info that seems to be the most objective in describing the inner and outer realities, and the most accurate. Especially Zen, the Denkoroku is full of those sort of ideas. I like the simplicity of the language, as you've pointed out you use those 'simple' words intentionally. And now that you've explained your definitions of "feelings" for example, you're other descriptions make more sense, too.
Also, the diagrams just clicked for me the second time I tried to wrap my head around it. If I'm getting it right, the arrows represent that 3 sec. mind-frame (i know that's not the term you use, but i think of it as the aggregate of sense data, memory/minding, subconscious, etc.) and during the course of the "twisted" experience that the 3 secs begins to widen, the arrow slants from its normal trajectory and begins to overlap with the normal stream of consciousness, so the experiencer begins to exist in a "lateral" framework. I feel like I'm getting closer to understanding, anyway. I think there might be a link between Zen's obsession with 'being in the moment' as the source of 'enlightenment', and this particular experience we're discussing.

@truekimbo2- you said "i know what you're talking about with the sideways viewing things. what interested me is if you take that sideways world and arrange it front to back like the normal world you get what appears to be another reality or something that has rules and objects and entities just like the physical world." Man that's spot on! Indeed I think we glimpse the One, or whatever you name the nameless, right? You also said you weren't able to make use of that 'world' consciously, and I would agree... and add that I think 'consciousness' or 'minding', as I like to say, does not apply in that realm. Indeed, it is a place for letting go.
I also think its fascinating you mention dxm. I have also had powerful experiences with it, and its one of the few chemicals that's ever produced anything close to what Salvia does with me. I wonder if it as something to do with dxm being a dissociative and not an alkaloid. I think having experiences of sinking into objects or even becoming them, stems from awareness not residing just in living things; but everywhere. It reminds me of the Buddhist idea of no-permanent self. Where exactly do we define the boundaries of who or what we are? Where do "I" begin and where does the air I breath, food I eat, earth I walk, etc. end?

Anyway, thanks for your wonderful thoughts! I'm intrigued!


Edited by SeekSalviaSee (09/20/07 02:45 PM)


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