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OfflineCaptainLinger
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Are spores dangerous after they've been PC'd?
    #7429519 - 09/19/07 07:03 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Of course there's the standard advice to PC your jars after they've been contaminated. I had an outbreak of a black pin mold, and PC'd about 20 jars; should I exercise caution in trashing them? I don't know what the mechanism of action is for spores damaging lungs, and heard of even inert spores causing problems (like "mushroom lung"). Just checking...


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Invisibleorchidfanatic
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Re: Are spores dangerous after they've been PC'd? [Re: CaptainLinger]
    #7429547 - 09/19/07 07:09 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

pretty sure PC kills every pathogen or spore


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Invisiblesimplemachine
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Re: Are spores dangerous after they've been PC'd? [Re: CaptainLinger]
    #7429561 - 09/19/07 07:13 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I would err on the side of caution and take any measures you can to protect yourself from inhaling the spores.


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OfflineWronguy

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Re: Are spores dangerous after they've been PC'd? [Re: orchidfanatic]
    #7429571 - 09/19/07 07:15 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I would personally never waste time pressure cooking contaminated jars. Next time take your jars outside and dump them in a trash bag. Take that bag and place it into another bag and dispose.


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Offlinecbiegel
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Re: Are spores dangerous after they've been PC'd? [Re: Wronguy]
    #7429624 - 09/19/07 07:24 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Do you mean trashing the jar or dumping the contents because if you dump contaminated jars (especially 20 ) there's a good chance you'll bring a lot of spores back in with you.


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OfflineCaptainLinger
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Re: Are spores dangerous after they've been PC'd? [Re: Wronguy]
    #7429629 - 09/19/07 07:26 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Wronguy that approach has been empirically ruled out. Doing that meant I got hit with severe black mold problems. Never had them until I opened a black mold jar outside...brought plenty in.

I also am in an urban environment. That is not always an option.

Orchid, it absolutely kills the spore. Just not sure whether the dead spore is similarly pathogenic, or not.


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OfflineWronguy

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Re: Are spores dangerous after they've been PC'd? [Re: cbiegel]
    #7429637 - 09/19/07 07:29 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Never had an issue with that myself. I always take contaminated jars outside and either let the sun kill them off for a few days or go right into the trash. I use a great deal of care when doing this.


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Invisibleorchidfanatic
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Re: Are spores dangerous after they've been PC'd? [Re: Wronguy]
    #7431141 - 09/20/07 05:13 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

When brewing beer you sometimes (not yet for me knock on wood) get mold into your beer .. Charlie papazain states no pathogen can survive in fermented beer. it may taste like crap moldy, sour or whatnot but it wont make you sick from pathagens .. so if 6 % alchohol in beer kills all pathgens then I am sure, after thinking about it more, a PC kills them too ..


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Invisiblemycocurious
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Re: Are spores dangerous after they've been PC'd? [Re: orchidfanatic]
    #7431174 - 09/20/07 05:27 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

orchidfanatic said:
pretty sure PC kills every pathogen or spore




Just splitting hairs here, but that is untrue...

Even though we're calling it sterile when it comes out of a PC, it rarely is. It would take the better part of 24 hours inside a pressure cooker to kill "every pathogen or spore".


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:justdontknow: Don't mistake my tone for a "matter-of-fact" attitude.  I'm just presenting what I believe to be correct, until I'm corrected...

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------------------------------------
figgusfiddus said:
Keep in mind that inoculating or whatever in front of a flow hood won't help your bad substrate, your bad inoculant, your bad sterile procedure, etc. etc. etc. It's not a +3 flowhood of magic, it's just a tool.


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Invisibleorchidfanatic
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Re: Are spores dangerous after they've been PC'd? [Re: mycocurious]
    #7431206 - 09/20/07 05:54 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

you know they only PC cans of corn for human consumption for a couple of hours in an autoclave? maybe it doesn't kill them all but it kills most of them so the threat to health is negligible?


Edited by orchidfanatic (09/20/07 05:55 AM)


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Offlineaspore
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Re: Are spores dangerous after they've been PC'd? [Re: mycocurious]
    #7431334 - 09/20/07 07:52 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

mycocurious said:
Quote:

orchidfanatic said:
pretty sure PC kills every pathogen or spore




Just splitting hairs here, but that is untrue...

Even though we're calling it sterile when it comes out of a PC, it rarely is. It would take the better part of 24 hours inside a pressure cooker to kill "every pathogen or spore".




You just said they could be killed by PC.

It would just take a while.

I say chuck the whole jar. It's not worth the spores in your house. Trust me, that has cost me more time and money that throwing away those jars that I didn't throw away.....damnnit!!


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OfflineCaptainLinger
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Re: Are spores dangerous after they've been PC'd? [Re: aspore]
    #7431424 - 09/20/07 08:46 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Making corn safe for human consumption is simply not the same as killing "every pathogen or spore".

aspore, that elongated time period is specifically to make the jars bacteria-free. *All* mold spores will be dead after an hour in a PC; they die off around 130F, 100 degrees below the PC temperature.

Yeah, orchid...I've been wondering about that too. I'm about to crack the lid on some low-AA Belgian golden trippel that was exposed to some very sporey air and fermented for 2 months; we'll see. I've been reading about molds in beer...and suspect that actually, pathogenic molds probably can live *on* beer...but in low enough quantities that you don't really have to worry about it.


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Offlinefiggusfiddus
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Re: Are spores dangerous after they've been PC'd? [Re: CaptainLinger]
    #7431445 - 09/20/07 08:53 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

CaptainLinger said:
Of course there's the standard advice to PC your jars after they've been contaminated. I had an outbreak of a black pin mold, and PC'd about 20 jars; should I exercise caution in trashing them? I don't know what the mechanism of action is for spores damaging lungs, and heard of even inert spores causing problems (like "mushroom lung"). Just checking...





Mushroom lung is mostly from shovelling like, pounds and pounds of contaminated compost for years on end, from every non-internet/bullshit source I've read. Even if you didn't PC them, jars of mold shouldn't be much worse than finding a scary peach in the kitchen, or a bunch of moldy bread. Not that I'm suggesting you sit around huffing it for fun, but I don't think there's any way it can hurt you in the quantities to which you'd be exposed to it.

Inert spores in large enough quantities are dangerous for the same reason coal mining is dangerous. It's not about the fact that they're spores so much as the fact that they wind up in your lungs. Cultivator's lung is different from pulmonary mycoses, which are actual fungal infections of the lung and usually only happen in immunodeficient people.


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Offlinefiggusfiddus
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Re: Are spores dangerous after they've been PC'd? [Re: mycocurious]
    #7431460 - 09/20/07 08:59 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

mycocurious said:
Quote:

orchidfanatic said:
pretty sure PC kills every pathogen or spore




Just splitting hairs here, but that is untrue...

Even though we're calling it sterile when it comes out of a PC, it rarely is.  It would take the better part of 24 hours inside a pressure cooker to kill "every pathogen or spore".




If I remember correctly (Alton Brown taught me this one, but I might be off by a digit), "sterilization" means a 99.998% reduction in microbe content. Now, I dunno if that means PCing for 90min actually makes something sterile by CDC or FDA standards, but we can all say it's pretty damn close I think. :smile:

Also if anything survives an hour of PCing it sure ain't a mold, it's going to be bacterial. Those fuckers are way tougher than fungi. But yeah, all heat sterilization is kind of logarithmic... so I guess up to a point there's a good chance one or two bacteria have survived the process by some biological miracle. But all commonplace bacteria (i.e. not the kind that live in volcanic magma) will eventually be killed at 255F or so from what I've read on autoclaving.


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FGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDS
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FGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDS


Edited by figgusfiddus (09/20/07 09:02 AM)


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OfflineCaptainLinger
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Re: Are spores dangerous after they've been PC'd? [Re: figgusfiddus]
    #7431546 - 09/20/07 09:40 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Not that I'm suggesting you sit around huffing it for fun




:rofl2:

I just have had some serious respiratory issues as of late. Could be spores (I have a few black molds floating around), could be that I decided to insulate my gf's house with fiberglass batting and no dust mask. Could be smoking.

Thanks, figgus...I'll avoid huffing!


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Offlinefiggusfiddus
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Re: Are spores dangerous after they've been PC'd? [Re: CaptainLinger]
    #7431558 - 09/20/07 09:49 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Do you have mold allergies?

Sorry, that didn't occur to me. Those are pretty common. You can get tested for them. A really heavy dose of the wrong kind of mold could irritate your lungs pretty bad, if you do, along with sinuses and so on.


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Invisiblesimplemachine
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Re: Are spores dangerous after they've been PC'd? [Re: figgusfiddus]
    #7431568 - 09/20/07 09:55 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Mold allergies are a bitch...

I inhaled a pretty heavy dose of mold spores cleaning out some very neglected monotubs one night and ever since I sneeze like crazy when I get around trich.

It always acts up when I eat mushies too.

Thats why I would suggest breathing in as little as possible!


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Invisibledumbfounded1600
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Re: Are spores dangerous after they've been Pressure Cooked? [Re: simplemachine]
    #7431741 - 09/20/07 10:57 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

try doing some maintenance around your house and check under your house or around it for mold and shit...most contaminants I've heard....come from the mold inside or around the house....like we had a leak in our bathroom...there was black powder mildew all around the back of the toilet....THE SHIT IS SO TOXIC IT IS MORE LETHAL THEN

BLEACH AND AMMONIA MIXED

WHAT I WOULD DO IS MAKE A BLEACH/WATER SOLUTION IN AN EMPTY WIN DEX BOTTLE...(WASH IT FIRST AND USE ALCOHOL TO GET THE CRAP OUT)...WHERE YOU USUALLY GET MOLD...CLEAN IT 3 TIMES A DAY...MEANING TAKE YOUR JARS OUT OF THAT AREA...SPRAY IT SEVERALLY...WIPE IT DOWN AFTER AN HOUR AND WAIT ANOTHER HALF AN HOUR THEN PUT YOUR JARS BACK..

FOR THE CONTAMINATED JARS...I JUST CHUCK EM IN THE BACK YARD AND HOPEFULLY IT HITS A ROCK AND BREAKS AND WITH THE HIGH WINDS WE GET AROUND HERE...THE SPORES JUST DRIFT OFF

WHEN HANDLING CAKES OR COLONIZING CAKES...I USE 99.9% SANITIZER AND THEN USE POWDER-FREE GLOVES...WHEN I'M LOOKING...I FIND IT NOT TO USE THE MASKS BECAUSE THE MASKS HOLD BACTERIA IN THE THIN FABRIC MATERIAL...WHEN I'M HANDLING THEM I BREATHE IN ONCE! THAN WHEN I CANT KEEP IT IN i BLOW IN THE OTHER DIRECTION...THEN KEEP IT IN FOR ANOTHER 20 SECONDS WHEN I'M DONE SHAKING AND LOOKING AT THE JARS....PUT THEM BACK IN THE STERILE TIT OR DRESSER AND LET EM BE


Edited by dumbfounded1600 (09/20/07 11:09 AM)


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Invisiblemycocurious
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Re: Are spores dangerous after they've been PC'd? [Re: CaptainLinger]
    #7431815 - 09/20/07 11:22 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

CaptainLinger said:
I just have had some serious respiratory issues as of late.




While not being the same as mushroom lung, if you work with the same species of sporulating mushroom, you'll eventually end up becoming very sensitized by it and it will make you miserable. In terms of allergies, that is...

I remember once, long ago, RR (or maybe Agar) rattled off a rather long list of species he can't be in the same room in for that reason.


--------------------
:justdontknow: Don't mistake my tone for a "matter-of-fact" attitude.  I'm just presenting what I believe to be correct, until I'm corrected...

- How Myco-Curious Prepares Coir & Compost Substrates
- How Myco-Curious Builds A Bulk Humidifier
- How Myco-Curious Builds An Automated Greenhouse
------------------------------------
figgusfiddus said:
Keep in mind that inoculating or whatever in front of a flow hood won't help your bad substrate, your bad inoculant, your bad sterile procedure, etc. etc. etc. It's not a +3 flowhood of magic, it's just a tool.


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Invisiblemycocurious
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Re: Are spores dangerous after they've been PC'd? [Re: mycocurious]
    #7431817 - 09/20/07 11:23 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

As for the sterilization bits, like I said... I was just splitting hairs.  :grin:


--------------------
:justdontknow: Don't mistake my tone for a "matter-of-fact" attitude.  I'm just presenting what I believe to be correct, until I'm corrected...

- How Myco-Curious Prepares Coir & Compost Substrates
- How Myco-Curious Builds A Bulk Humidifier
- How Myco-Curious Builds An Automated Greenhouse
------------------------------------
figgusfiddus said:
Keep in mind that inoculating or whatever in front of a flow hood won't help your bad substrate, your bad inoculant, your bad sterile procedure, etc. etc. etc. It's not a +3 flowhood of magic, it's just a tool.


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OfflineJSshroom
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Re: Are spores dangerous after they've been PC'd? [Re: mycocurious]
    #7431866 - 09/20/07 11:34 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

This is a minorly absurd argument. If you get contamed jars just pc for 30 minutes or so and dispose of the contents outside. Scrub your jars and I put warm water, and a tablespoon of bleach in them for a bit. Wash and re-load and it has never contamed. If jars are left for X amount of time they will re-contaminate. Whether it be the same mold, or bacteria. Without FAE then the bad stuff just comes back. We are huge vectors in contamination. The biggest imo so to say that bringing spores inside from jars. Implying that the house is not already full of those spores from the prior contam issue. Some info supplied by the TMC


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OfflineCaptainLinger
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Re: Are spores dangerous after they've been PC'd? [Re: JSshroom]
    #7432006 - 09/20/07 12:06 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I doubt I have allergies...and the longer I go the less I think I got exposed to spores, more just a nasty illness. I'm pretty okay now...and might've gotten it from other sources. I simultaneously had an outbreak of pin mold in some jars (might've shaken 1 or 2 out indoors), and then a mysterious, rapidly spreading black affliction.

Turns out it was contaminant mushrooms; Coprinus spp sporulating before I ever noticed it present.

JSshroom, that's simply incorrect. *ALL* mold spores will be killed by PCing; they're dead, and won't reform. I'm not sure what your point is; you still don't want to exponentially increase the spore count in your house.


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OfflineJSshroom
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Re: Are spores dangerous after they've been PC'd? [Re: CaptainLinger]
    #7615297 - 11/09/07 01:27 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

well when I pc a jar and dump it outside after it has cooled. It plops out without spores going everywhere. If you want to try it. You can get a contamed jar, PC it, if it re-contams in a week then thats my point. If I am wrong then Damn. info taken from personal experience and TMC. To say that at 90PC everything is dead is incorrect IMO. Endospores perhaps, but I have also had jars that I PC'd and knocked up with a solution that did not take. Nothing grew at all. I dont throw good jars away. Lids can be cleaned as well. It would be a pima pain in my ass to have to re-machine lids every time a contam happens. which is 1 in 100 jars or more so in bags as I have not mastered them yet


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Are spores dangerous after they've been PC'd? [Re: JSshroom]
    #7616542 - 11/09/07 07:26 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

> should I exercise caution in trashing them?

For sure. There are plenty of ways to do it. Probably the best way is to open them underwater using a 10% bleach solution.

I wouldn't worry about mushroom lung though. That usually happens at massive mushroom farms where workers are breathing extremely high spore counts for 40+ hours/wk.


-FF


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Offlinemilkman
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Re: Are spores dangerous after they've been PC'd? [Re: fastfred]
    #7616744 - 11/09/07 08:25 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

what i like to do with my contamed jars is let them colonize as much as they can then strip to my undies run out back with a little alcohol solution and dump them near a old cow poo i dumped out there then before i come back in side i wipe myself down


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OfflineBlargIAmDead
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Re: Are spores dangerous after they've been PC'd? [Re: milkman]
    #7616765 - 11/09/07 08:29 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

That almost sounds like some festivals I've seen. "Awright, now whatcha gonna do is strip bare ass naked an run thru this corn field here. Make sure to get chur three whiskey shot min'mum for ya do." :smile:


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OfflineFirewolf1327
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Re: Are spores dangerous after they've been Pressure Cooked? [Re: dumbfounded1600]
    #7617070 - 11/09/07 10:16 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

dumbfounded1600 said:
THE SHIT IS SO TOXIC IT IS MORE LETHAL THEN BLEACH AND AMMONIA MIXED...

WHAT I WOULD DO IS MAKE A BLEACH/WATER SOLUTION IN AN EMPTY WIN DEX BOTTLE...




Knowing that you never mix chlorine and ammonia because of the noxious gas created, why would you ever tell someone to bother with this possibly disastrous concoction? I don't care how much you try to rinse the windex bottle...


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OfflineJSshroom
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Re: Are spores dangerous after they've been Pressure Cooked? [Re: Firewolf1327]
    #7619315 - 11/10/07 03:45 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

you can get a good sprayer for as little as a dollar


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