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OfflineLion
Decadent Flower Magnate
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Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 8,775
Last seen: 3 days, 17 hours
Re: The Irony of it all [Re: jonathanseagull]
    #7435703 - 09/21/07 08:54 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Castaneda's don Juan


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Posts: 24,855
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Re: The Irony of it all [Re: suave]
    #7435713 - 09/21/07 08:58 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

suave said:
A person can sit here and say that he is happy in and of the moment. But they aren't happy.




Wonderful conclusion, unfortunately it is completely unsubstantiated. :shrug:

Quote:


They are simply in a good mood at that moment ( all ego ). Their programming has them in "happy" mood ( ego ). YOU, YOURSELF ( other words, your spirit, not your ego ) is a never changing state of being, you are neither happy nor sad nor angry, you simply are. Your FEELINGS on the other hand....




No, it does not make sense. Human beings exist as the culmination of the interaction amongst themselves and reality, in this moment. The experience thereof is being human. Our existance is this present experience. You can choose to mentally construct a sense of identity for yourself in any manner you wish, but for you to assert the nature of others is baseless.

To suggest that someone who experiences a state of enthusiasm and happiness in being alive and communicates as such isn't actually happy and enthused because there is a mental thought process that brings them to channel energy to be blessed with such an experience is no different than to suggest that someone who is breathing isn't actually breathing because the act of breathing is simply a physical process carried out by the respiratory system. :lol:

Quote:


What a fool one is to say that they "know" how they feel with their life.




A fool is someone who does not know thyself. Considering that we are ourselves, knowing oneself is easy for the honest.

Quote:


NO NO No.... you base how you feel on how your EGO feels about it. You yourself has no changes ever made to your mood. The arrogance of it even reveals itself openly when such a statement is made like "whats all this "we" nonsense, im very happy and content", which is a cry of defense straight out of a persons ego.




An observation of the nature of reality is only seen as a cry of defense to those who perceive reality through the lens of threat to themselves, subsequently concluding that others must feel threatened as well. To feel threatened, of course, is the result of an attachment to one's mental sense of identity. :strokebeard:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinestellar renegade
explorer ofmetaphysicaldepths
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Registered: 09/19/07
Posts: 201
Loc: carrollton, tx
Last seen: 13 years, 10 months
Re: The Irony of it all [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7439185 - 09/22/07 02:48 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

fireworks_god, I have to say... I love you. :smile:


--------------------
"I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou

"To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Posts: 14,794
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Re: The Irony of it all [Re: stellar renegade]
    #7439190 - 09/22/07 02:51 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

stellar renegade said:
fireworks_god, I have to say... I love you. :smile:




I'll second that :heartpump:
FWG, I love you! :loveeyes:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Offlinemikebart101
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Registered: 08/01/06
Posts: 619
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Last seen: 11 years, 5 months
Re: The Irony of it all [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7439669 - 09/22/07 07:52 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Yup. Pretty positive of the fact that if I remembered 'everything' I have experienced over the last few years (even just the last time I smoked), I would be sitting in a mental institution, writing a book about how insanity is the only true reality.


--------------------
So we finish the eighteenth and he's gonna stiff me. And I say, "Hey, Lama, hey, how about a little something, you know, for the effort, you know." And he says, "Oh, uh, there won't be any money, but when you die, on your deathbed, you will receive total consciousness." So I got that goin' for me, which is nice.


Edited by mikebart101 (09/22/07 09:13 AM)


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Offlinesuave
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Registered: 04/23/07
Posts: 289
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: The Irony of it all [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7446776 - 09/24/07 07:38 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

suave said:
A person can sit here and say that he is happy in and of the moment. But they aren't happy.




Wonderful conclusion, unfortunately it is completely unsubstantiated. :shrug:

Quote:


They are simply in a good mood at that moment ( all ego ). Their programming has them in "happy" mood ( ego ). YOU, YOURSELF ( other words, your spirit, not your ego ) is a never changing state of being, you are neither happy nor sad nor angry, you simply are. Your FEELINGS on the other hand....




No, it does not make sense. Human beings exist as the culmination of the interaction amongst themselves and reality, in this moment. The experience thereof is being human. Our existance is this present experience. You can choose to mentally construct a sense of identity for yourself in any manner you wish, but for you to assert the nature of others is baseless.

To suggest that someone who experiences a state of enthusiasm and happiness in being alive and communicates as such isn't actually happy and enthused because there is a mental thought process that brings them to channel energy to be blessed with such an experience is no different than to suggest that someone who is breathing isn't actually breathing because the act of breathing is simply a physical process carried out by the respiratory system. :lol:

Quote:


What a fool one is to say that they "know" how they feel with their life.




A fool is someone who does not know thyself. Considering that we are ourselves, knowing oneself is easy for the honest.

Quote:


NO NO No.... you base how you feel on how your EGO feels about it. You yourself has no changes ever made to your mood. The arrogance of it even reveals itself openly when such a statement is made like "whats all this "we" nonsense, im very happy and content", which is a cry of defense straight out of a persons ego.




An observation of the nature of reality is only seen as a cry of defense to those who perceive reality through the lens of threat to themselves, subsequently concluding that others must feel threatened as well. To feel threatened, of course, is the result of an attachment to one's mental sense of identity. :strokebeard:




After reading all of that. I wonder if even you understand what you wrote :lol:

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

suave said:
A person can sit here and say that he is happy in and of the moment. But they aren't happy.




Wonderful conclusion, unfortunately it is completely unsubstantiated. :shrug:


This is childs play for even an unenlightened person my friend. You YOURSELF is a never changing being. For me to say that a person isn't happy is correct. Because a person simply IS. A person's ego may or may not at that moment have a person happy based on the way that it views THAT current situation.

I tend to wonder if you even understand what i'm saying here because your arguement back tends to be torward trying to be right for your "groupy" friends here.

quote "You can choose to mentally construct a sense of identity for yourself in any manner you wish, but for you to assert the nature of others is baseless."

Well once again that wouldn't be me, myself, but my ego. Wrong.

quote"Human beings exist as the culmination of the interaction amongst themselves and reality, in this moment."

Is this your opinion on how life works? I mean it seems to me that it is simply your ego choosing this sentence as the best way to explain "life". In so, i'll quote you "Wonderful conclusion, unfortunately it is completely unsubstantiated. :shrug:"

I exist based on the culmination of the blood running through my body. My heartbeat. My brain. My existence hasn't got a damn thing to do with interacting with another human being.

quote"To suggest that someone who experiences a state of enthusiasm and happiness in being alive and communicates as such isn't actually happy and enthused because there is a mental thought process that brings them to channel energy to be blessed with such an experience is no different than to suggest that someone who is breathing isn't actually breathing because the act of breathing is simply a physical process carried out by the respiratory system. :lol: "

how bout some commas? How many fragments can i count in just the first part of this paragraph here. You expect an audience to understand this bla bla?

I'll let you explain what you meant if you choose to.

"A fool is someone who does not know thyself. Considering that we are ourselves, knowing oneself is easy for the honest."

Completely unrelated subjective opinion once again from you. As stated before "Wonderful conclusion, unfortunately it is completely unsubstantiated. :shrug: ". A fool to me is a person that uses his mouth without a pause. Example being: if i was preaching to some people outside and tried to explain to them that if they were angry with the way a person is speaking to them, they wouldn't be angry at their words, instead their ego would be manipulating their feelings to the point where they were mad. Some guy (fool) in the back then cries out "that's bs, i'm mad because he's disrespecting me", all because he fails to understand the difference between his ego, and his self.

The sense of amusement, of joy, of anger are all feelings. They are not "substantiated" by ones interaction with others, but by the way that one SEE'S their interaction with another. The ego of a person defines these feelings. Theres the mental and physical part of a human being, we can all agree? The physical plain is where life is given it's spice, it's feelings, it's turmoil, it's pain. Then there is the mental which is the self, the limitless, unbounded, unchained, never ending state of being. We influence this state of being through the way we "feel" about things. Someone calls you an asshole, you are offended are in some way or another have a reaction torward that comment. That reaction comes from your ego.

If you haven't done some heavy reading, it's hard to grab these concepts. Once you understand them though, it is alot easier to go through life with better understanding.

On a side note, I think the quotes got all messed up somewhere along the line :frown:. And i replied to this not in a state of defense by my ego because someone is calling me out as wrong, but to simply help a person understand his/her underlying feelings in a limitless world. NO hard feelings meant, i'm open for debate as long as it doesn't get to huge.


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Offlinesuave
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Registered: 04/23/07
Posts: 289
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: The Irony of it all [Re: Acaterpillar]
    #7446780 - 09/24/07 07:40 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Rabidbaboon said:
But having desire to be content is the whole reason our species has done so well. Because we are never content so we are always pushing into new boundaries, looking for things to cure us of our 'lust disease'.

I change my statement in that human nature is not to be content, but to seek to become content.




It's not only the reason we have done so well, but also our abomination.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Posts: 24,855
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Re: The Irony of it all [Re: suave]
    #7446956 - 09/24/07 08:54 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

suave said:
This is childs play for even an unenlightened person my friend. You YOURSELF is a never changing being.




False. We change in every moment. This is readily observable.

Quote:


For me to say that a person isn't happy is correct. Because a person simply IS.




Yes, a human being is a state of existance, and that state of existance has qualities of existance. Being happy is one of them.

Quote:


A person's ego may or may not at that moment have a person happy based on the way that it views THAT current situation.




So, a person can choose whether or not they feel happy in a certain situation? :shocked: The fact that they make this choice thus designates that they aren't actually happy? :what:

Quote:


I tend to wonder if you even understand what i'm saying here because your arguement back tends to be torward trying to be right for your "groupy" friends here.




We discuss ideas in this forum, and not personalisms. This quotation is a personalism, and it has nothing to do with the ideas that I presented. Read the forum rules. This is not acceptable.

Quote:


Well once again that wouldn't be me, myself, but my ego. Wrong.




Sorry dude, but human beings are everything that makes them.

Quote:


Is this your opinion on how life works? I mean it seems to me that it is simply your ego choosing this sentence as the best way to explain "life".




Of course, you haven't once elaborated as to what the ambigious term "ego" means, but this statement in quotations could be equally applicable to your expressed point of view.

Tell me, how do you choose sentences, any differently than how I choose them? :sherlock:

Quote:


I exist based on the culmination of the blood running through my body. My heartbeat. My brain. My existence hasn't got a damn thing to do with interacting with another human being.




Incorrect. One's environment is as integral as one's physical body in providing for one's existance. The sensory data that our senses collect change who we are. They change the nature of our existance, as our perceptions change, as our environment that we perceive changes.

If it wasn't for other human beings, you personally wouldn't exist. Your interactions with the environment that has produced you, and other human beings specifically, define your existance.

Quote:


The sense of amusement, of joy, of anger are all feelings. They are not "substantiated" by ones interaction with others, but by the way that one SEE'S their interaction with another.




No arguement there, but, judging by your use of one of my words, out of context, you clearly have misconceptions of what I'm talking about. Human beings make decisions how they feel, the feeling being an aspect of their experience of life. Human beings are their experience of life. Your entire assertion that human beings are not happy because they choose to be happy makes absolutely no sense.

Quote:


  We influence this state of being through the way we "feel" about things. Someone calls you an asshole, you are offended are in some way or another have a reaction torward that comment. That reaction comes from your ego.




The "ego", of course, being an aspect of oneself. :wink:

Your understanding of how human beings come to "feel" things is nothing new, and no one has argued that. We are, obviously, to anyone who can exhibit reading comprehension, debating your assertion that human beings are not their experience of reality, that they do not feel happy because an aspect of themself chooses to create that experience of happiness.

Interestingly enough, you never addressed my analogy regarding the thought that human beings do not breathe because there is a physical process known as the respiratory system that carries itself out in order to produce the phenomenon of breathing. :strokebeard:


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Offlinebackfromthedead
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Re: The Irony of it all [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7446988 - 09/24/07 09:05 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

:lol:
:shrug:

Somebody better take responsibility for that damn ego!!

Ka-Boom. :psychsplit:

:cheers:


--------------------


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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: The Irony of it all [Re: suave]
    #7447017 - 09/24/07 09:15 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Very good, you have realized we are not our feelings. Because if we were our feelings we could say: "Let my feelings be this" and they would be that. But because, we cannot say that and feelings are prone to affliction it is evident that we are not our feelings. Because many of us believe we are our feelings, we experience a feeling and crave that sensation or crave for that sensation to be different. This craving creates clinging. We crave certain feelings, and since feelings by their very nature are subject to change and transient, can never be ultimately satisfied. So here we are, going through life never fully satisfied continuously attempting to fill up that craving by clinging. Our behaviors follow the basic same formula without end: ... Contact -> Feeling -> Craving -> Clinging -> Habits ...

How does one solve this problem, how does one become satisfied? Practice. You first must realize that there is no such thing as an individual. An individual (ego) is a constructed entity consisting of clinging to the notion of a form, consciousness, feelings, perception, and thoughts/concepts. We may think we are these, but none of these show any evidence of a self. Just like feelings, these are all prone to affliction, are transient in nature, and so no individual can be found in any of them. "The lights are on but nobody is home." The truth is when we cling to any of these elements the process of craving arises over and over, which manifests itself as resistance. The key here, is to be observant of this process, and just deeply relax all the subtle tension and tightness in your body and mind. This weakens the ego (identity of a self) and strengthens mental clarity.

The interesting thing is, when under the influence of mushrooms (or some other hallucinogen), the concept of self (ego) can be shattered and when this happens there is only radiant love left to experience. Some call this "all", "god", "clear light", the feeling of enlightenment. It is the missing ingredient. It is the spiritual lesson (if you seek it). The more you radiate love to others, and the less emphasis you put on your self, the more clarity and joy you will experience in life. You will see the world with different eyes, and you will stop taking things so seriously, and start playing again. The craving will go away, as you have loving acceptance of the current moment. You will gain new insights to the world around you. Your whole perspective shifts as you understand reality is just an impersonal process.

But, it all starts with a smile :smile:


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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Offlinebackfromthedead
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Re: The Irony of it all [Re: psyka]
    #7447030 - 09/24/07 09:18 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

:grin:


--------------------


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: The Irony of it all [Re: psyka]
    #7447076 - 09/24/07 09:40 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

psyka said:
Very good, you have realized we are not our feelings.




Ahh, but we are. :yesnod: We are our experience, we are our perceptions. The manner in which we unfold is us. Ultimately, we are reality, all aspects within included. :smile:

Quote:


Because if we were our feelings we could say: "Let my feelings be this" and they would be that. But because, we cannot say that and feelings are prone to affliction it is evident that we are not our feelings.




Some people say that, and it is thus so. The fact that most people have no understanding how to manage their thought processes that produce feelings in their experience does not mean that it isn't possible, simply that most people are unskillful in doing so.

Quote:


Because many of us believe we are our feelings, we experience a feeling and crave that sensation or crave for that sensation to be different.




Ahh, addiction to a sensation does not result from identifying with one's experience of reality. It results from an addicted mind. I am my feelings, I am my thoughts, I am my physical body, I am my perceptions, I am my awareness, my consciousness. Yet, I am not addicted to one aspect of how I could exist being presently manifested, although I could be. Its my choice, after all. :wink:

Quote:


So here we are, going through life never fully satisfied continuously attempting to fill up that craving by clinging. Our behaviors follow the basic same formula without end: ... Contact -> Feeling -> Craving -> Clinging -> Habits ...




Some people dissolve obstructive elements of their thought processes that produce a feeling of unsatisfaction and craving, and fully immerse themselves with the present experience, feelings and all. To immerse is to accept, after all. :yesnod: When you accept who you are, as well as what makes you who you are.... no more clinging. :wink:

Quote:


How does one solve this problem, how does one become satisfied? Practice. You first must realize that there is no such thing as an individual. An individual (ego) is a constructed entity consisting of clinging to the notion of a form, consciousness, feelings, perception, and thoughts/concepts.




Form, consciousness, feeling, perception, and thoughts and conceptions all exist, do they not?

I experience reality, and another form does not have the same experience. Thus, individuality. An individual is not a constructed entity, a sense of individuality is. :smirk:

Quote:


We may think we are these, but none of these show any evidence of a self. Just like feelings, these are all prone to affliction, are transient in nature, and so no individual can be found in any of them.




This present experience is individual, singular, whole. An individual cannot be found through division, so it is no wonder that no individual is found by searching for the individual in one aspect of the phenomenon. There is no individual, and yet there is. :smirk:

Quote:


The truth is when we cling to any of these elements the process of craving arises over and over, which manifests itself as resistance. The key here, is to be observant of this process, and just deeply relax all the subtle tension and tightness in your body and mind. This weakens the ego (identity of a self) and strengthens mental clarity.




Precisely, don't cling. :smile: It does weaken the sense of individuality, yet one is still individual. :wink:

Quote:


The interesting thing is, when under the influence of mushrooms (or some other hallucinogen), the concept of self (ego) can be shattered and when this happens there is only radiant love left to experience.




Yet there still exists a form that experiences. :wink:

Quote:


You will gain new insights to the world around you. Your whole perspective shifts as you understand reality is just an impersonal process.




It isn't just an impersonal process. It is a personal one as well. We are people, after all. :grin:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Invisiblepsyka
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Posts: 1,652
Re: The Irony of it all [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7447086 - 09/24/07 09:44 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

"Some people say that, and it is thus so. The fact that most people have no understanding how to manage their thought processes that produce feelings in their experience does not mean that it isn't possible, simply that most people are unskillful in doing so."

Suppose you are trying to goto sleep, and you are feeling peaceful. You get up to goto the bathroom and stub your toe hard. And it hurts. Did you ask the pain to arise and the peacefulness to go away?

And just FYI, you are correct. What you have said is the other side of the same coin. There is a compounded individual, yet that compounded individual's nature is essentially empty of substance, but it doesn't mean that there is non-existence of being. It just implies that there is no existence of being. The truth is somewhere in between existence and non-existence.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



Edited by psyka (09/24/07 09:51 AM)


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Male


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Posts: 24,855
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Re: The Irony of it all [Re: psyka]
    #7447196 - 09/24/07 10:25 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Ahh, but not all thought processes occur on a conscious level, although the conscious mind can bring them into consciousness and consciously choose. Consious or not, it is still a choice, and the question is regarding the degree to which we effectively manage our experience. :wink: It may also be a question of the difference between physical sensation and emotional feeling. :grin:

I believe you are correct as well. I haven't been proposing ultimate truth, but simply responding with ideas that floated into being. In replying to your post, I was having a very interesting experience, feeling no boundaries between myself and anything else along and within this vast spectrum of reality. :mushroom2: Thank you for interacting! :smile:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
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Re: The Irony of it all [Re: psyka]
    #7447791 - 09/24/07 01:54 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Indeed, by knowing the passing of the pain of the toe (if it's not broken :eek: :wink:), one may possibly find a state of mind which makes sleep most adorable and pleasureful, therby making it an positive experienced feeling towards sleep :smile:
(Just flipping the coin)


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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