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Offlinepalmersc
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truth is not subjective
    #7425045 - 09/18/07 06:41 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

what if you found the objective truth and it wasn't what you expected? once you find what you're looking for doesn't mean you continue to try finding something else.

or all you're doing is building up and tearing down your own subjective truth which places the human mind at the center of the universe.

most seem like they never expect to arrive at a conclusion and actually live it. make up the rules as you go huh?


we are not the center of creation. this mind did not come up with all this. following selfish desires and then justifying them is what wickedness is.

ever think that calling Christians closed minded is not quite correct. having an open mind to what is wrong is not healthy.

its interesting how open most here are to new ideas, but the tried and true way is immediately discarded. i did it too because i thought the rational mind was worth putting faith in. I will say that you cannot rationalize faith.

its a tough spot to be in if you think you can do no wrong or make wrong be what you think it should be. very dangerous.

perhaps this could be a discussion of how many strayed from Christianity in search of truth. I myself never felt like the whole thing was 100 percent legit as a kid. I felt like I was different because I questioned it.

The only way I justified not turning around was a lack of fear and reverence for the Father. He disciplines those he loves and Hell is definitely real. Though I don't know what it means for sure.

Maybe we on here are just really hard headed. Maybe soften up a bit and look to the wisdom in the Bible. I have enjoyed reading Proverbs and Ecclesiastes expresses some of the ideas on this forum.

http://www.letgodbetrue.com/proverbs/18_02.htm

i am trying to convey my beliefs in a way that might provoke some to share why they no longer feel it to be true.

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InvisibleBridgeburner
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Re: truth is not subjective [Re: palmersc]
    #7425074 - 09/18/07 06:47 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

what if




that, like religion, is what fairy tales are made of. take everything as it is.


--------------------

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Invisibledblaney
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Re: truth is not subjective [Re: palmersc]
    #7425156 - 09/18/07 07:03 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

but the tried and true way is immediately discarded




Actually, in the history of mankind, there have been many 'tried and true' ways. In fact, there have been many, many paths, trodden by many, many people. To claim that the path you walk on is the one and only true way sounds a bit like "following selfish desires and then justifying them" to me. And as you say, that "is what wickedness is." :wink:

Quote:

its a tough spot to be in if you think you can do no wrong or make wrong be what you think it should be. very dangerous.




It's only a tough spot if you think it is. The way you speak of 'wrong' makes it sound as you believe it to exist on its own. As if evil and wrong are things that actually exist 'out there'. Does it actually exist 'out there'? What is it? Where is it? How is it created? I would say that it is just an idea that describes something based on our own perspective. The way a man in modern day America conceives of 'evil' would not be the same as a man living in equatorial Africa 1500 years ago. It depends on the situation...the time and place.

Quote:

He disciplines those he loves and Hell is definitely real.




Could you perhaps be a bit more specific? I haven't recently seen any mythical or supernatural beings descending from the sky to deliver ten lashes to someone for being evil. What is Hell? Where is it?

Quote:

i am trying to convey my beliefs in a way that might provoke some to share why they no longer feel it to be true.




Well I hope you're open to discussion. Personally, I never felt it to be true.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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OfflineBooby
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Re: truth is not subjective [Re: palmersc]
    #7425218 - 09/18/07 07:15 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

palmersc said:
make up the rules as you go huh?..

following selfish desires and then justifying them is what wickedness is.






Who made up that rule?

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InvisibleBridgeburner
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Re: truth is not subjective [Re: Booby]
    #7425238 - 09/18/07 07:21 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

selfish desires? as if doing something for yourself? i don't even feel the need to justify 90% of my acts, i just do them because i'm me and that's my self. sounds like you are guilt-ridden and beaten down by a certain book.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: truth is not subjective [Re: palmersc]
    #7425267 - 09/18/07 07:28 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

what if you found the objective truth and it wasn't what you expected? once you find what you're loat you expected? once you find what you're looking for doesn't mean you continue to try finding something else.




Why not?
Let's take you way back, to the times where people were living in caves.
What were they looking for? Food mostly. So they began to build tools which made them able to become hunters and catch animals so they could eat them.
By doing that they also discovered that they can use their fur so they don't feel cold. And this way they became more aware.
Now tell me, if they would have sticked only to what they initially were looking for - food, doesn't it mean that they would have never discovered the qualities of animal's fur and skin?
Wouldn't it also mean that right now we would still living in caves and hunting?
How many times in your life have you looked for something and then when you got it, it brought you to new realizations that you might need something else too, in order to improve the quality of your life?
I think it's this endless state of looking for the better that keeps us growing and evolving.
This also the role of philosophy.
Tell me doesn't it feel contradictory to you, to make this statement: "once you find what you're looking for doesn't mean you continue to try finding something else." on a philosophy forum?
Through philosophy we're always looking for more efficient and satisfying ways of living. Why should this search stop? It has barely began...

What does this affirmation:

Quote:

or all you're doing is building up and tearing down your own subjective truth




Have to do with this one:

Quote:

which places the human mind at the center of the universe.




:confused:

I would say that, on the contrary, thinking that there's only one truth that applies to all of us is what can make one think that we're the center of the Universe and that everything revolves around us, and there's something/somebody that has a special plan for us. :shrug:
Can you explain that to me?

Quote:

most seem like they never expect to arrive at a conclusion and actually live it. make up the rules as you go huh?




Most of us have probably reached multiple and diversified conclusions and counting. Life is fluid, and so are our experiences. If we try to box ourselves in, as well as our experiences, it would be no less than trying to stop the course of river.
Or trying to put the toothpaste back on the tube. :nut:
Anyways, I think you got the picture. :smirk:

Quote:

we are not the center of creation.




Which creation? Any creation also has a Creator, so... which creator? What are you talking about? :eek:

Quote:

this mind did not come up with all this.




With what? Can you be more specific?

Quote:

following selfish desires and then justifying them is what wickedness is.




Anything that we do has a certain degree of selfishness. Thinking otherwise has been proven to be incorrect.
Not to mention that, logically speaking, you can only have selfish desires. It's just comes with the territory. :shrug:

Selfish:

Quote:

self·ish      /ˈsɛlfɪʃ/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[sel-fish] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. devoted to or caring only for oneself; concerned primarily with one's own interests, benefits, welfare, etc., regardless of others.
2. characterized by or manifesting concern or care only for oneself: selfish motives.




Desire:

Quote:

de·sire      /dɪˈzaɪər/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[di-zahyuhr] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation verb, -sired, -sir·ing, noun
–verb (used with object)
1. to wish or long for; crave; want.
2. to express a wish to obtain; ask for; request: The mayor desires your presence at the next meeting.
–noun
3. a longing or craving, as for something that brings satisfaction or enjoyment: a desire for fame.
4. an expressed wish; request.
5. something desired.
6. sexual appetite or a sexual urge.




Voila :satansmoking:

Quote:

ever think that calling Christians closed minded is not quite correct. having an open mind to what is wrong is not healthy.




And how do you determine that this is "wrong"? :rolleyes:
With the wrong-o-meter? :strokebeard:
Honestly though, this sounds like a Christian campaign...

Quote:

its interesting how open most here are to new ideas, but the tried and true way is immediately discarded.




And how can you prove that this is the true way?
Should we take your word?
You know, there are people which sustain that they know the true way, and it differs from person to person. :shocked:
Hmm... :strokebeard:

i did it too because i thought the rational mind was worth putting faith in.

This doesn't prove anything and it only means that probably this way works for you. :shrug:
Again, I see NO reason at all why it should work for everybody...

Quote:

I will say that you cannot rationalize faith.




How convenient. :rolleyes:
And yes... it was quite obvious that you can't rationalize faith because those two terms are opposed. :smirk:
Shall I explain?
Ok I will... :shrug:

Quote:

faith      (fāth)  Pronunciation Key
n. 

  1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
  2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief, trust.
  3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
  4. often Faith Christianity The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
  5. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
  6. A set of principles or beliefs.




Quote:

rea·son      (rē'zən)  Pronunciation Key
n. 

  1. The basis or motive for an action, decision, or conviction. See Usage Notes at because, why.
  2. A declaration made to explain or justify action, decision, or conviction: inquired about her reason for leaving.
  3. An underlying fact or cause that provides logical sense for a premise or occurrence: There is reason to believe that the accused did not commit this crime.
  4. The capacity for logical, rational, and analytic thought; intelligence.
  5. Good judgment; sound sense.
  6. A normal mental state; sanity: He has lost his reason.
  7. Logic A premise, usually the minor premise, of an argument.




:grin:

Quote:

its a tough spot to be in if you think you can do no wrong or make wrong be what you think it should be. very dangerous.




Would you please define "wrong" for me?
From the data I gather, everything we do had both positive and negative effects. And everything in between. So... again... how do you establish what's wrong?

Quote:

perhaps this could be a discussion of how many strayed from Christianity in search of truth. I myself never felt like the whole thing was 100 percent legit as a kid. I felt like I was different because I questioned it.




This sounds like an anti-drug campaign. :lol:
"I started doing drugs because I wanted to be different. Now I have 10  needles in my veigns because of it" :rolleyes:

Quote:

The only way I justified not turning around was a lack of fear and reverence for the Father. He disciplines those he loves and Hell is definitely real. Though I don't know what it means for sure.




So let me get this straight. :nerd:
You KNOW that hell exists, you are 100% sure, but you have no clue what it really is... right...

Quote:

i am trying to convey my beliefs in a way that might provoke some to share why they no longer feel it to be true.




Read all the above. :thumbup:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Offlinekotik
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Re: truth is not subjective [Re: palmersc]
    #7425268 - 09/18/07 07:28 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

palmersc said:
what if you found the objective truth and it wasn't what you expected? once you find what you're looking for doesn't mean you continue to try finding something else.




just for clarification, could you state a few objective truths, so I have a better idea?


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.

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OfflineBooby
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Re: truth is not subjective [Re: kotik]
    #7425301 - 09/18/07 07:35 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

kotik said:
Quote:

palmersc said:
what if you found the objective truth and it wasn't what you expected? once you find what you're looking for doesn't mean you continue to try finding something else.




just for clarification, could you state a few objective truths, so I have a better idea?




I think it is obvious that the Lord your God knows what 'Wicked' is, and that Palmersc is the voice in these matters.

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Offlinepalmersc
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Re: truth is not subjective [Re: kotik]
    #7425995 - 09/18/07 09:51 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Jesus is Lord. He seeks to only please the Father in his judgments. One can only know the Father through Jesus Christ.

Jesus was not just a man. He came here as God in the flesh and lived a perfect life and died a sinless death only to rise 3 days later by conquering death.

And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this [is] the first commandment.

And the second [is] like, [namely] this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.


This is the message board where I sought to find truth and meaning in life. I got a bit cocky and was put in my place fortunately. Seek and you will find. Knock and the door will be opened. What cannot be seen must become more important than anything of this world.

This is where it ends my friends. I will not linger here where the Word is not well received. I remember guys like fivepointer coming on here and going at it. This is a place to hide from the truth, or a detour along the way which creates much confusion and pride.

Proverbs 12:15 The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, But a wise man is he who listens to counsel.

Proverbs 16:25 There is a way which seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death.

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: truth is not subjective [Re: palmersc]
    #7426127 - 09/18/07 10:19 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

k then...


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: truth is not subjective [Re: palmersc]
    #7426204 - 09/18/07 10:35 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

I got a bit cocky and was put in my place fortunately.




How were you put in your place?

Quote:

Seek and you will find.




What did you find?


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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InvisibleEternalCowabunga
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Re: truth is not subjective [Re: palmersc]
    #7426247 - 09/18/07 10:41 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

The funny thing is palmersc is completely right, I've realized it a bunch of times, but it's much easier to live with eyes closed - God, the infinite light at the end of time, will only resurrect us into his spirit if we carry out his will. On the other hand, MushroomTrip debates so eloquently and makes palmersc sound very vague and confused.

It comes down to two things for me: God is an archetype in the human mind which makes people, probably in moments of weakness, turn to it and gain strength from it because they are bad at loving themselves so they can relax if they know that God is out there loving them, and if an infinite force loves them then there should be no reason why they can't love themselves; hence, faith.

I don't know about this whole Jesus coming back after 3 days. Is 3 an important number, or he was just chilling on the first two days? I'm not up to date on my Bible knowledge unfortunately.

In the end, palmersc is right but it doesn't matter because we all go to "heaven" in the end anyways, and the reason why palmersc doesn't know what hell is, is because it doesn't exist - it is literally non-existence, the result of the infinite unity at the end of time not resurrecting you because your soul was not positive enough to blend into it.. so it exists in its own subjective hell for en eternity before it is saved by the lights grace or is lost forever. Weird, I just got crazy dejavu, have I made this post before? I don't know.. everything I'm saying seems familiar.

Anyone who has actually found the truth, has become pure in heart and enlightened would not be posting here, it's true. But it doesn't matter, this is just a kind of purgatory, but it's all happening as it needs to.

On the other hand, this could all be a defense mechanism of a weak mind. I just wonder sometimes... there's a reason why our body is called a temple.

It has nothing to do with Christianity per se though, this has more to do with the end of time and your role in bringing it to Earth.

None of this should be taken literally of course, I can just see where palmserc is coming from because I can see where these ideas have their source.


--------------------

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OfflineBooby
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Re: truth is not subjective [Re: palmersc]
    #7426612 - 09/19/07 12:43 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

This exchange has been fruitful. Under the tenet of "know thyself" all is not lost.

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InvisibleMiddlemanM

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Posts: 8,399
Re: truth is not subjective [Re: palmersc]
    #7426850 - 09/19/07 03:17 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

palmersc said:

we are not the center of creation.

Hell is definitely real.




That's just what the Roman Empire wants you to think.

What kind of GOD would give you one short chance and punish you FOREVER if you fucked it up?

Jesus is the Antichrist, imo.

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Offlinekotik
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Re: truth is not subjective [Re: Middleman]
    #7426916 - 09/19/07 04:36 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

is it just me, or is this TOTALLY in the wrong forum?

I mean, I asked for a few objective truths, and I get this?!?:

Quote:

Jesus is Lord. He seeks to only please the Father in his judgments. One can only know the Father through Jesus Christ.

Jesus was not just a man. He came here as God in the flesh and lived a perfect life and died a sinless death only to rise 3 days later by conquering death.

And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this [is] the first commandment.

And the second [is] like, [namely] this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.




now if that doesnt scream MRP, I don't know what does.

I'm a bit offended a completely serious question was met with that type of response. In my book, that is the very definition of trolling.


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.

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Offlinestellar renegade
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Re: truth is not subjective [Re: kotik]
    #7427281 - 09/19/07 08:52 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Well this discussion turned out to be pointless. :rolleyes:

The problem, I think, is that people use different definitions for the same words.  One says "truth" and the others think "truths".  Surely there are many different truths, but they are all unified in the same one truth, which is not a mere fact but an entity.  We refer to it when we say that someone is being both honest and factual.  It's the essence of truth which Jesus claimed to embody - he was, presumably, the most honest and truthful person who has ever existed.

Surely we can't keep contradicting ourselves and claim to know anything.  But it's not the facts themselves which are the truth, it's the essence of truth which is the truth.  Even Jesus said that if you misunderstand him, don't believe he's the One, or even speak evil about him that's fine, as long as you don't obfuscate and speak evil about the truth.

Here, the nature of truth is best explained by a post made here a year ago:

Quote:

AlteredAgain said:
So how? If you can’t go left or right, up or down, in or out, to find nature, there is only one other way to go, and that is transcendence. Duality must be transcended, one has to go beyond questions and answers to find truth. One must come to the realization that there are no questions and no answers, only truth. Now some will say that truth too is again a duality, that the opposite of a truth is a lie. But this is nothing but a flaw in our language, a mistake on our part, a misunderstanding, nothing more. A truth is not ‘The Truth’ I am speaking of. The truth cannot be broken down into this and that. The counterpart of truth is truth itself. It is what is because it is. That’s all it really is.




Quote:

EternalCowabunga said:
In the end, palmersc is right but it doesn't matter because we all go to "heaven" in the end anyways, and the reason why palmersc doesn't know what hell is, is because it doesn't exist - it is literally non-existence, the result of the infinite unity at the end of time not resurrecting you because your soul was not positive enough to blend into it.. so it exists in its own subjective hell for en eternity before it is saved by the lights grace or is lost forever. Weird, I just got crazy dejavu, have I made this post before? I don't know.. everything I'm saying seems familiar.



It's because you were accessing eternity.  People always get deja vu when they come into contact with eternity or the dream world.


Quote:

kotik said:
now if that doesnt scream MRP, I don't know what does.

I'm a bit offended a completely serious question was met with that type of response. In my book, that is the very definition of trolling.



made me LOL.

Edited by stellar renegade (09/19/07 09:01 AM)

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