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Offlineski
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Flipping jars for faster colonization. Experiment (PICS)!!!
    #7426034 - 09/18/07 09:59 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

OK well I'm in my first grow and have been asking my fair share of questions and have gotten help from so many people, thanks every one!!!

Now I have read MANY posts and threads about flipping jars for faster colonization, more particular to faster colonization of the bottom of the jars. As far as I have read many people don't think this works, while just as many others claim it does. The reason for many people believing it does speed up colonization is because CO2 is heavier it fills the bottoms of jars, and by flipping it you allow that heavy CO2 to escape.... or so they say. Now I have taken pictures of 5 jars, last night at this exact time I drew lines around the edges of the myc. so I could see how fast they grow in one day (They have been incubating right side up in my incubator). Just now (exactly one day later) I drew another set of lines around the edges of the myc. and put them lid down in my incubator and this time tomorrow I will take them out and draw another set of lines around the edges of the myc. to see how much they grew with the lids down.

Temps in my incubator range from 82-86 depending on day or night.

The first line on the jars (line closest to the top)was drawn yesterday which was exactly 2 weeks after inoculation

The second line on the jars (line closest to the bottom) was drawn 15 days after inoculation

Sorry, I used black marker for both sets of lines, blue and red were too light for my camera to capture, hopefully the lines are distinct enough for every one to see.

**I know that I could have made this more accurate and had control jars and control strains and such but I was going to do this just because I was curious and decided to put it up for every one**

OK the good part. PICTURES

The strains in these two jars are (from left to right)Ecuador and B+


The strains in these two are (from left to right) Treasure Coast and Cambodian


And this last single jar is Orissa India


Just giving a little back to the Shroomery community that has taught me so much, thanks for all the help.

I'll post the pictures of the results tomorrow!

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OfflineanarchOi
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Re: Flipping jars for faster colonization. Experiment (PICS)!!! [Re: ski]
    #7426133 - 09/18/07 10:21 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

what you can't photograph here, is how the mycelia really does benefit from the FAE, how it can spring up in seemingly uncolonized areas and rip through the substrate

i've had cake jars colonized to 60-70% in 3 weeks, then flipped and they finished colonizing in 2 days


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Offlineski
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Re: Flipping jars for faster colonization. Experiment (PICS)!!! [Re: anarchOi]
    #7426191 - 09/18/07 10:33 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah I completely understand, As you can see EQ and B+ are like 75-80 done and the others are the same or not far behind, there could be so many other factors. Something as simple as the way heat rises from top to bottom could mess it up because they are flipped now. Never know. This is just a very simple experiment, if you want to call it that, they could be all colonized tomorrow and it may not have been because the flipping did help FAE, never know. Might be interesting though

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OfflineanarchOi
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Re: Flipping jars for faster colonization. Experiment (PICS)!!! [Re: ski]
    #7426310 - 09/18/07 10:55 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

yeah i suppose you are right, maybe it's just the fact that it's not smushed against the glass :smile:
that's mostly the answer i've settled on besides improved FAE

but like someone in another thread said, if you blow in a straw into a jar upside down in water, it fills with air and pushes the water out

i figure since cO2 settles at the bottoms, it works kind of like that, the oxygen pushes the carbon out allowing for FREE air exchange
whereas the carbon would otherwise just sit in the jar, building up, with no way to escape. i suppose those would slow your jar down quite a bit in comparison to a flipped jar.

that's just my own theory, but i still mostly think it's the fact that the mycelium has open air regardless how fresh it is


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Offlineski
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Re: Flipping jars for faster colonization. Experiment (PICS)!!! [Re: anarchOi]
    #7427304 - 09/19/07 09:06 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Well tonight well see, maybe the growth is the same and the myc grows around the same speed always, depending on the strain

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OfflineanarchOi
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Re: Flipping jars for faster colonization. Experiment (PICS)!!! [Re: ski]
    #7427428 - 09/19/07 09:58 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

well i've only had much experience with extremely fast colonizers (in cakes)
possibly a slower colonizing strain might be effected differently, possibly by contams

are you flipping the jars back over to take the pics? that would slow growth i think


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Invisiblelegallyhomeless
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Re: Flipping jars for faster colonization. Experiment (PICS)!!! [Re: ski]
    #7427795 - 09/19/07 12:07 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

ski said:
Well tonight well see, maybe the growth is the same and the myc grows around the same speed always, depending on the strain




looking foward to reading


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OfflineeVenom
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Re: Flipping jars for faster colonization. Experiment (PICS)!!! [Re: anarchOi]
    #7427808 - 09/19/07 12:09 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Interesting I what the results soon!

Too i think this should be done with a clone culture and at least 3 upside-down and 3 upside-up :confused:  and put them that way since day one!!

but still i love to see results!!


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eVenom

"Some of us like a nice buzz, while others want to climb a screaming volcano naked to meet god."
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OfflineanarchOi
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Re: Flipping jars for faster colonization. Experiment (PICS)!!! [Re: eVenom]
    #7428041 - 09/19/07 01:01 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

gonna be hard to do a cake experiment with clones, gonna have to make some LC

i might try that
looking forward to an update Ski


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OfflineeVenom
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Re: Flipping jars for faster colonization. Experiment (PICS)!!! [Re: anarchOi]
    #7428438 - 09/19/07 02:24 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

anarchOi said:
gonna be hard to do a cake experiment with clones, gonna have to make some LC




Why you say that?? why will it be harder to do with jars?


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eVenom

"Some of us like a nice buzz, while others want to climb a screaming volcano naked to meet god."
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Offlineski
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Re: Flipping jars for faster colonization. Experiment (PICS)!!! [Re: eVenom]
    #7428514 - 09/19/07 02:40 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Yeah i am flipping over to take the pictures, i only planned on leaving them upside down for 24 hours, and again i could leave them longer but this is just a rough experiment i decided to do because i was bored last night. These were all done with syringes from spores 101... in case any one was wondering. Hopefully one night is enough to show some results, i mean you can clearly see the growth of 24 hours upright.... will update tonight

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Offlineski
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Re: Flipping jars for faster colonization. Experiment (PICS)!!! [Re: ski]
    #7429672 - 09/19/07 07:36 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Ok so I was going to post pics but a friend OFFERED me 4 grams of chocolate covered shrooms and i cant pass up an opportunity and for me to check the jars and write lines and take pictures right now is a hard task..... i looked and i was suprised, they grew little to none at all, I will post pictures tomorrow. I will leave the upside down until then. But like i said this is not a very accurate experiment, this makes it worse. Sorry all, will post tomorrow!

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Offlinecbiegel
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Re: Flipping jars for faster colonization. Experiment (PICS)!!! [Re: ski]
    #7429713 - 09/19/07 07:44 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Have you had any problems with moisture on the sides of the jars wetting the "dry" verm layer under the lid? I could see that as a contam risk.


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Offlineski
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Re: Flipping jars for faster colonization. Experiment (PICS)!!! [Re: cbiegel]
    #7429866 - 09/19/07 08:19 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

theres moisture on the sides of my jars, but this is normal, im not going to open my jars for any reason. No contams here. no thank you lol

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Offlinecbiegel
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Re: Flipping jars for faster colonization. Experiment (PICS)!!! [Re: ski]
    #7429890 - 09/19/07 08:25 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Are they sealed?

Of course the moisture on the sides is normal; my point is that if it runs down the sides when the jars are upside down they could ruin the "dry" verm layer that keeps out contams. If your jars are sealed I guess this wouldn't matter. On the other hand the amount of moisture could be small enough that it wouldn't wet the verm enough to cause a problem anyway. That's my question: does the moisture wet the verm?


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Relax, don't worry, have a homebrew.

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Offlineski
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Re: Flipping jars for faster colonization. Experiment (PICS)!!! [Re: cbiegel]
    #7430124 - 09/19/07 09:23 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Oh sorry, didnt get that, they are sealed any ways, good thinking, i overlooked that..... im going to try to get pictures now.... coming down

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Offlineski
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Re: Flipping jars for faster colonization. Experiment (PICS)!!! [Re: ski]
    #7430217 - 09/19/07 09:48 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Ok so the results..... Not much growth, suprisingly it seems they grew faster right side up, and flipping them only slowed them down! You decide!

EQ and B+


TC and CAM


And OI



So, and i know this is not a legit experiment, but from this i would just leave the jars right side up. Maybe some one could incubate 3 up and 3 down for a better experiment..... So i flipped my jars back over and they are sitting there right side up. Enjoy

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OfflineeVenom
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Re: Flipping jars for faster colonization. Experiment (PICS)!!! [Re: ski]
    #7430621 - 09/19/07 11:32 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

nice try!!! still I know chocolate and shrooms is to tempting!!! hope you had a good time!

if I remember in my next grow ill do it!but that wont be for a while if some one is doing a grow sooner could try!


--------------------
eVenom

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InvisibleOptx
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Re: Flipping jars for faster colonization. Experiment (PICS)!!! [Re: ski]
    #7430997 - 09/20/07 03:41 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

to get "scientific" results you need a much larger sample. like 50 regular, 50 flipped...


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Offlinefiggusfiddus
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Re: Flipping jars for faster colonization. Experiment (PICS)!!! [Re: Optx]
    #7431091 - 09/20/07 04:47 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Right, Optx. And you should use an isolate, certainly not two different strains.

But I will tell you now that vegetative mycelium (especially the small amount contained in a half-pint or even pinter) doesn't need all that much o2, and I'm honestly not sure that the flipping technique does anything to bring any fresh air into the jar anyway. This is something that was put forth in the original PF tek, or an adaptation of it, if I remember correctly, and it's yet another piece of BS, untested information from that otherwise-valuable newbie source. They claim it sucks some air in, with some iffy explanation involving a vacuum at the bottom of the jar when you tip it, or some crap... doesn't make an ounce of sense to me.

In other words, don't take everything you read at face value, especially if it doesn't add up. This is common practice because a well-distributed manual suggests it, and that's all. For an idea like this, being well-distributed is more important than being scientifically accurate.


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