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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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How to tell when a poster doesn't believe his own stance
    #7424061 - 09/18/07 02:39 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Here are a few ways to tell that a poster is unsure of his/her position:

1. Misquoting

2. Strawman arguments

3. Exaggeration or outright lying

4. Use of anecdotes

5. Personalisms

6. Emotionalism (usually anger)


There are many more, but these are some of the main red flags that the poster is scared and doubts that the facts are able speak for themselves.

Remember, The Truth NEVER need shoring up.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: How to tell when a poster doesn't believe his own stance [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7424073 - 09/18/07 02:41 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

:whoa: This is all news to me. Thanks for posting.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

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Re: How to tell when a poster doesn't believe his own stance [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7424088 - 09/18/07 02:45 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

According to your criteria, EVERYONE here (including yourself) is simply full of shit.


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Offlinecrumblebum
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Re: How to tell when a poster doesn't believe his own stance [Re: Middleman]
    #7424095 - 09/18/07 02:47 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Mostly those are just logical informal fallacies.

Logical informal fallacies don't mean that someone dosen't believe the stance that their taking, just that they aren't very good at defending it.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: How to tell when a poster doesn't believe his own stance [Re: Middleman]
    #7424097 - 09/18/07 02:48 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I'm not so sure about Veritas and Diploid. As for the rest of us that could well be the case.:monkeydance:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineBooby
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Re: How to tell when a poster doesn't believe his own stance [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7424098 - 09/18/07 02:48 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I thought it was natural to see people get emotional about issues they believe in.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: How to tell when a poster doesn't believe his own stance [Re: Booby]
    #7424102 - 09/18/07 02:49 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

It may be natural but that don't make it healthy or skillful.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: How to tell when a poster doesn't believe his own stance [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7424110 - 09/18/07 02:51 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Here are a few ways to tell that a poster is unsure of his/her position:

1. Misquoting

2. Strawman arguments

3. Exaggeration or outright lying

4. Use of anecdotes

5. Personalisms

6. Emotionalism (usually anger)


There are many more, but these are some of the main red flags that the poster is scared and doubts that the facts are able speak for themselves.

Remember, The Truth NEVER need shoring up.




This is ironically self-referential.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: How to tell when a poster doesn't believe his own stance [Re: crumblebum]
    #7424116 - 09/18/07 02:52 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Mostly those are just logical informal fallacies.





In some cases. DELIBERATELY taking a quote out of context to change meaning, lying and exaggeration are certainly not merely logical fallacies.


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

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Re: How to tell when a poster doesn't believe his own stance [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7424124 - 09/18/07 02:54 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

^^^ Projecting.


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Offlinecrumblebum
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Re: How to tell when a poster doesn't believe his own stance [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7424133 - 09/18/07 02:56 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Hence the word "Mostly". And even when people are deliberately misquoting or misrepresenting data, that dosen't suggest that they don't believe what they are arguing. They rationalize using false data because it serves to prove what they believe is true anyhow.

So they're still just crap debaters. How they debate dosen't impact on or reflect what they actually believe.


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Offlinecrumblebum
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Re: How to tell when a poster doesn't believe his own stance [Re: crumblebum]
    #7424168 - 09/18/07 03:02 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Really, the only circumstances under which someone does not believe the stance they are taking is in instances of playing "Devil's Advocate", trolling/flaming for responses, and law. And in any of those cases, what they actually believe is irrelevent to their method of argumentation.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: How to tell when a poster doesn't believe his own stance [Re: crumblebum]
    #7424179 - 09/18/07 03:03 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

:thumbup: It think so.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: How to tell when a poster doesn't believe his own stance [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7424200 - 09/18/07 03:08 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I strongly disagree, and I cannot believe that you would post something so fascist and suppressive!  I'm sure that Hitler would have approved. :thumbdown:

First of all, when you said:

Quote:

There are many more, but these are some of the main red flags that the poster is incontinent, mentally retarded and doubts that the facts are able speak for themselves.




How, exactly, is one's ability to refrain from spontaneous urination related to surety in one's argument?  I mean, you might as well have posted:

:piss:

Additionally, your claim that Strawman arguments are indicative of uncertainty is absurd.  Eliminating this debate tactic would result in a disruption of the time-space continuum, and your argument against it points to your being an agent of chaos and destruction.  :thumbdown:

In fact, your entire post reminds me of the time I was at band camp, and the camp counselor for our group told us to shut up and go to sleep, already.  From that moment forward, we knew that adults were not to be trusted, because they wanted to stop our enjoyment of living.

To sum up, you are a doo-doo head, and I am furious with you. :mad: :razz:


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: How to tell when a poster doesn't believe his own stance [Re: Veritas]
    #7424208 - 09/18/07 03:10 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

:rofl2:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: How to tell when a poster doesn't believe his own stance [Re: crumblebum]
    #7424240 - 09/18/07 03:21 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

There is 'believing' and then there is 'wanting to believe'.

Years ago I had a thread about the ABSOLUTE BEST EVIDENCE for UFOs. Give it to me in order, I requested. When several of the top cases were effectively deconstructed, all of the above tactits were in evidence instead of real counterpoint.

That points to the 'wanting to believe' camp.


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

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Re: How to tell when a poster doesn't believe his own stance [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7424261 - 09/18/07 03:27 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I "want to believe" we aren't all just livestock for their voracious young. :crazy:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: How to tell when a poster doesn't believe his own stance [Re: Middleman]
    #7424278 - 09/18/07 03:31 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Me too!


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: How to tell when a poster doesn't believe his own stance [Re: Veritas]
    #7424920 - 09/18/07 06:11 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

:lol:  :rofl2:  :tongue2:


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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Offlinekotik
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Re: How to tell when a poster doesn't believe his own stance [Re: Middleman]
    #7425294 - 09/18/07 07:35 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Middleman said:
According to your criteria, EVERYONE here (including yourself) is simply full of shit.




that was my first reaction as well.

and how one could equate being emotional, with not believing in their stance, is beyond me. Ever heard of religion?


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


Edited by kotik (09/18/07 07:36 PM)


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Offlinecrumblebum
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Re: How to tell when a poster doesn't believe his own stance [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #7425360 - 09/18/07 07:48 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Do you really think such a semantic difference as believeing and wanting to believe will affect how someone argues, or lead to the use of fallacious arguments?
That would imply that people reflexively know what informal fallacies are before uttering them, which they obviously often don't. And even when people DO use them with foreknowledge, it's generally still to try and convince others of something.

You can divide bad arguers into catagories of "Believers" and "Want to Belivers", and you can then point out that the second catagory of bad arguers don't believe their own premise, but you're still left with the existence of bad arguers who do believe.

As an Aristotilian syllogism:

Some People are Bad Arguers
Some Bad Arguers Do Not Believe in Their Stance
Therefore
All Bad Arguers Do Not Believe in Their Stance

This is a catagorical error, and an actual Formal Error. So if comitting informal errors means one dosen't believe there own stance, what does comitting Formal Errors imply?


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: How to tell when a poster doesn't believe his own stance [Re: crumblebum]
    #7425514 - 09/18/07 08:10 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

One does not have to believe nor want to believe in a stance to argue the point in debate....    :wink:


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: How to tell when a poster doesn't believe his own stance [Re: crumblebum]
    #7426227 - 09/18/07 10:37 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

This is the US Govt's stand on pot. Suppress studies that show it is relatively harmless. Create false myths of psychosis and crime and murder. Exaggerate. Call it a stepping stone, the decline of morality and so on.

I seriously doubt this is believed by those in power (and many know first-hand - hello Clinton?). Yet lies are propagated for decades.

What does this have to do with stuff discussed here? It is all the same in that THE TRUTH NEED NOT BE FEARED and certainly needs no help.


--------------------


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Offlinekotik
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Re: How to tell when a poster doesn't believe his own stance [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #7426917 - 09/19/07 04:40 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

PhanTomCat said:
One does not have to believe nor want to believe in a stance to argue the point in debate....    :wink:





good point as well.

and about truth not needing help, I couldn't disagree more.


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


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Offlineimplee
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Re: How to tell when a poster doesn't believe his own stance [Re: kotik]
    #7426919 - 09/19/07 04:46 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Plus in all of the collected thing you learn through out years, sometimes its just plain hard to remember specific facts, or quotes.


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Offlinecrumblebum
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Re: How to tell when a poster doesn't believe his own stance [Re: implee]
    #7427471 - 09/19/07 10:14 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Now, see, you're comitting further fallacies. You're diverting the discussion.

You have claimed that people who use fallacious arguments do not believe their argument.

I have refuted this by showing that it's an obvious catagorical error. And so my counter stance is this: While some people who use fallacious argumentation do not believe their own stance, some do. Therefore, not all people who use fallacious arguments do not believe their stances.

You're responses have not furthered your argument, mearly diverted the focus of it.


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Offlinestellar renegade
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Re: How to tell when a poster doesn't believe his own stance [Re: crumblebum]
    #7428914 - 09/19/07 04:25 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I think the problem is that one goes by the strict definition of 'believe' and another goes by the passing social version. In normal conversation it does not usually matter to someone whether you sincerely, in your heart believe it and are sure of it. Therefore when one says 'I believe' or 'he/she believes' they are merely referring to a public confession.

I think OrgoneConclusion is trying to say that if one feels they must resort to using those arguments then underneath their statement of beliefs there is an underlying strata of doubt. Maybe they don't even recognize it, and they certainly wouldn't confess it to others if they did, but they are not being truly sincere.

It's merely referencing the fact that an attitude of honesty (of wanting to know the truth no matter what it is) will not lead to dishonest argumentation.


--------------------
"I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou

"To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: How to tell when a poster doesn't believe his own stance [Re: stellar renegade]
    #7428953 - 09/19/07 04:39 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

I think OrgoneConclusion is trying to say that if one feels they must resort to using those arguments then underneath their statement of beliefs there is an underlying strata of doubt. Maybe they don't even recognize it, and they certainly wouldn't confess it to others if they did, but they are not being truly sincere.

It's merely referencing the fact that an attitude of honesty (of wanting to know the truth no matter what it is) will not lead to dishonest argumentation.





Thank you. SR, really hit the nail on the head here. When one posts, is their goal to shore up their current position or to uncover the truth (where possible)?

Would you like to apply for Official OC Interpreter? The pay is low, the hours are long, but the rewards are unlimited. :yesnod:


--------------------


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Offlinestellar renegade
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Re: How to tell when a poster doesn't believe his own stance [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7428982 - 09/19/07 04:48 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Would you like to apply for Official OC Interpreter? The pay is low, the hours are long, but the rewards are unlimited. :yesnod:


haha, I'll certainly help where needed.  :wink:


--------------------
"I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou

"To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: How to tell when a poster doesn't believe his own stance [Re: crumblebum]
    #7429479 - 09/19/07 06:54 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

crumblebum said:
You're responses have not furthered your argument, mearly diverted the focus of it.




Some philosophy is the discussion of ideas, and not necessarily debating in argument....  :wink:


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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Offlinejonathanseagull
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Re: How to tell when a poster doesn't believe his own stance [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7431633 - 09/20/07 10:28 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Where does the person who uses "needling" come into play in all of this?


--------------------
Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.


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Offlinestellar renegade
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Re: How to tell when a poster doesn't believe his own stance [Re: jonathanseagull]
    #7432364 - 09/20/07 01:31 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Because they feel the need for their belief to be strengthened by the accompaniment of the belief of others? I don't know. I believe alot of things that most people don't believe, and yet I don't feel the need to force it upon others because I'm already certain it's true.


--------------------
"I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou

"To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald


Edited by stellar renegade (09/22/07 02:49 AM)


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