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crumblebum
The Guy Who's Really Bad At Sex


Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 1,459
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Re: How to tell when a poster doesn't believe his own stance [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7425360 - 09/18/07 07:48 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Do you really think such a semantic difference as believeing and wanting to believe will affect how someone argues, or lead to the use of fallacious arguments? That would imply that people reflexively know what informal fallacies are before uttering them, which they obviously often don't. And even when people DO use them with foreknowledge, it's generally still to try and convince others of something.
You can divide bad arguers into catagories of "Believers" and "Want to Belivers", and you can then point out that the second catagory of bad arguers don't believe their own premise, but you're still left with the existence of bad arguers who do believe.
As an Aristotilian syllogism:
Some People are Bad Arguers Some Bad Arguers Do Not Believe in Their Stance Therefore All Bad Arguers Do Not Believe in Their Stance
This is a catagorical error, and an actual Formal Error. So if comitting informal errors means one dosen't believe there own stance, what does comitting Formal Errors imply?
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....



Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,908
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Re: How to tell when a poster doesn't believe his own stance [Re: crumblebum]
#7425514 - 09/18/07 08:10 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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One does not have to believe nor want to believe in a stance to argue the point in debate.... 
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: How to tell when a poster doesn't believe his own stance [Re: crumblebum]
#7426227 - 09/18/07 10:37 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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This is the US Govt's stand on pot. Suppress studies that show it is relatively harmless. Create false myths of psychosis and crime and murder. Exaggerate. Call it a stepping stone, the decline of morality and so on.
I seriously doubt this is believed by those in power (and many know first-hand - hello Clinton?). Yet lies are propagated for decades.
What does this have to do with stuff discussed here? It is all the same in that THE TRUTH NEED NOT BE FEARED and certainly needs no help.
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kotik
fuckingsuperhero


Registered: 06/29/04
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Re: How to tell when a poster doesn't believe his own stance [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7426917 - 09/19/07 04:40 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
PhanTomCat said: One does not have to believe nor want to believe in a stance to argue the point in debate.... 
good point as well.
and about truth not needing help, I couldn't disagree more.
-------------------- No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.
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implee
Cyber Hippie


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Re: How to tell when a poster doesn't believe his own stance [Re: kotik]
#7426919 - 09/19/07 04:46 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Plus in all of the collected thing you learn through out years, sometimes its just plain hard to remember specific facts, or quotes.
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crumblebum
The Guy Who's Really Bad At Sex


Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 1,459
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: How to tell when a poster doesn't believe his own stance [Re: implee]
#7427471 - 09/19/07 10:14 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Now, see, you're comitting further fallacies. You're diverting the discussion.
You have claimed that people who use fallacious arguments do not believe their argument.
I have refuted this by showing that it's an obvious catagorical error. And so my counter stance is this: While some people who use fallacious argumentation do not believe their own stance, some do. Therefore, not all people who use fallacious arguments do not believe their stances.
You're responses have not furthered your argument, mearly diverted the focus of it.
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stellar renegade
explorer ofmetaphysicaldepths



Registered: 09/19/07
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Re: How to tell when a poster doesn't believe his own stance [Re: crumblebum]
#7428914 - 09/19/07 04:25 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I think the problem is that one goes by the strict definition of 'believe' and another goes by the passing social version. In normal conversation it does not usually matter to someone whether you sincerely, in your heart believe it and are sure of it. Therefore when one says 'I believe' or 'he/she believes' they are merely referring to a public confession.
I think OrgoneConclusion is trying to say that if one feels they must resort to using those arguments then underneath their statement of beliefs there is an underlying strata of doubt. Maybe they don't even recognize it, and they certainly wouldn't confess it to others if they did, but they are not being truly sincere.
It's merely referencing the fact that an attitude of honesty (of wanting to know the truth no matter what it is) will not lead to dishonest argumentation.
-------------------- "I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou
 "To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Posts: 45,414
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Re: How to tell when a poster doesn't believe his own stance [Re: stellar renegade]
#7428953 - 09/19/07 04:39 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
I think OrgoneConclusion is trying to say that if one feels they must resort to using those arguments then underneath their statement of beliefs there is an underlying strata of doubt. Maybe they don't even recognize it, and they certainly wouldn't confess it to others if they did, but they are not being truly sincere.
It's merely referencing the fact that an attitude of honesty (of wanting to know the truth no matter what it is) will not lead to dishonest argumentation.
Thank you. SR, really hit the nail on the head here. When one posts, is their goal to shore up their current position or to uncover the truth (where possible)?
Would you like to apply for Official OC Interpreter? The pay is low, the hours are long, but the rewards are unlimited.
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stellar renegade
explorer ofmetaphysicaldepths



Registered: 09/19/07
Posts: 201
Loc: carrollton, tx
Last seen: 13 years, 10 months
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Re: How to tell when a poster doesn't believe his own stance [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7428982 - 09/19/07 04:48 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Would you like to apply for Official OC Interpreter? The pay is low, the hours are long, but the rewards are unlimited.
haha, I'll certainly help where needed.
-------------------- "I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou
 "To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....



Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,908
Loc: My Youniverse....
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
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Re: How to tell when a poster doesn't believe his own stance [Re: crumblebum]
#7429479 - 09/19/07 06:54 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
crumblebum said: You're responses have not furthered your argument, mearly diverted the focus of it.
Some philosophy is the discussion of ideas, and not necessarily debating in argument.... 
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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jonathanseagull
Cool!


Registered: 10/28/05
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Re: How to tell when a poster doesn't believe his own stance [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7431633 - 09/20/07 10:28 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Where does the person who uses "needling" come into play in all of this?
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Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.
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stellar renegade
explorer ofmetaphysicaldepths



Registered: 09/19/07
Posts: 201
Loc: carrollton, tx
Last seen: 13 years, 10 months
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Re: How to tell when a poster doesn't believe his own stance [Re: jonathanseagull]
#7432364 - 09/20/07 01:31 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Because they feel the need for their belief to be strengthened by the accompaniment of the belief of others? I don't know. I believe alot of things that most people don't believe, and yet I don't feel the need to force it upon others because I'm already certain it's true.
-------------------- "I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou
 "To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald
Edited by stellar renegade (09/22/07 02:49 AM)
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