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Offlinekotik
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Re: Student Tasered For Asking Sen. Kerry About Skull & Bones - Video (np) [Re: Diploid]
    #7428676 - 09/19/07 03:16 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
So, it's your job to keep order, your boss asked you to remove the guy, and the guy kept rushing the microphone.

You're up: How would you have handled things (and kept your job)?




well, seeing how the officers involved are now on leave, and pending investigation - there really is no right answer. Id I didn't do anything (which is what I would have done) I'd lose my job. If I used a taser, I would lose my job. This is truly a lose lose situation.

This is not sidestepping. Hypothetically, you are a Nazi, and you must either shoot and kill a jewish family, and then be tried in court under war crimes. How do you keep your job as a Nazi? I mean come on...

and this IS valid, as I WAS in Military Security Forces, and I DID refuse to assault somebody. And I WAS reprimanded. And I would do it again, and again, and again.


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Student Tasered For Asking Sen. Kerry About Skull & Bones - Video (np) [Re: kotik]
    #7428689 - 09/19/07 03:21 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

They're suspended WITH PAY pending an investigation. They haven't lost their job. When the investigation is over, they'll be reinstated.

So, if I understand your answer, you would have just stood there after being asked to do your job and remove an unruly guy from the room? This explains a lot about you.

Wow, I'm glad you're not a cop.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Offlinekotik
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Re: Student Tasered For Asking Sen. Kerry About Skull & Bones - Video (np) [Re: Diploid]
    #7428704 - 09/19/07 03:24 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

yes, you have that 100% correct.

I was in the same situation while in the military, and ordered to assault somebody. I refused, and was reprimanded.

I'm glad you are not in charge of sticking up for my rights.


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Student Tasered For Asking Sen. Kerry About Skull & Bones - Video (np) [Re: kotik]
    #7428722 - 09/19/07 03:32 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

So you're saying that simply removing the guy from the building goes against your conscience so much that you would give up your job rather than remove him from the building?

Is that correct?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Offlinekotik
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Re: Student Tasered For Asking Sen. Kerry About Skull & Bones - Video (np) [Re: Diploid]
    #7429019 - 09/19/07 04:57 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

no, but in this particular situation, I would have taken a seat. To me, a college kid with his arms in the air holding a book does not constitute a threat.

To you, perhaps - however I am very used to being around people, and I do not get intimidated from peaceful protests like this.

If I have to pick a way just to appease you, then fine. I would have bear hugged the kid, and carried him to an exit. If I got punched or kicked on the way there, so be it. If I got hit so hard that I was injured, I would probably sneak a few in myself.

Again, this was not a violent demonstration, and the best response thus far has been "he's a comedian, he deserved it, he planned it"

Well, apparently the news media, general public, police chief and john kerry all disagree with you. But I assume that's nothing new, and you may take pride in it. I would. Normally I'm on the other side of this coin.


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


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InvisibleLuddite
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Re: Student Tasered For Asking Sen. Kerry About Skull & Bones - Video (np) [Re: kotik]
    #7429164 - 09/19/07 05:32 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

kotik said:
p.s. i realize this is probably the most right-winged and anti-conspiracy site on the entire internet, including foxnews forums.  I figured I would post it anyways, just in spite.  :evil:




What you see as right wing, I see as rational people who see your paranoid rants and wonder if you're going to flip out and blow anything up.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Student Tasered For Asking Sen. Kerry About Skull & Bones - Video (np) [Re: Luddite]
    #7429261 - 09/19/07 05:55 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

The day America stood up!

America's motto is no longer, "Don't tread on me," but




Phred


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Offlinekotik
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Re: Student Tasered For Asking Sen. Kerry About Skull & Bones - Video (np) [Re: Luddite]
    #7429275 - 09/19/07 05:59 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

What you see as right wing, I see as rational people who see your paranoid rants and wonder if you're going to flip out and blow anything up.




who knows, i just might.  i'm also under the influence of drugs most of the time (imagine that, here of all places).  does that make it more comforting for you? :crazy2:

The fact that I believe this incident was wrong, in that a person was assaulted, then electrocuted (potentially lethal) for asking a question, and then trying to avoid being handcuffed.  It's not just the tasing, or the "omfg what about free speech?!?!" knee-jerk reaction.

This was a civil debate.  The kid was obviously asking questions that made everyone uncomfortable, and had to know that Kerry would dodge them anyways.  So in that regard, yes it was a show - to that extent.  I support that, in every way - because it would have shown the ignorant students that Kerry was ignoring the questions, and perhaps it would raise questions for them to look up on their own.

If my curiosity, and support for civil disobedience when necessary (say, at a political debate, in an academic setting, between two people that obviously wanted to continue) makes me irrational, and a threat to you, then so be it.  Quite ironic that you would call me paranoid.

Honestly, I am much more afraid of you guys, as you wouldn't think twice of throwing me into a cell to shut me up, as you disagree with what I have to say.  It's also obvious you are for torturing people, laughing and mocking the victim all the way.  Even going so far as to profess that complaining after being tased for 5 seconds is "putting on a show."

Christ, we are talking about US citizens here, not terrorists.  A student, asking a question in college, being assaulted, shocked, arrested and mocked.  I'll just re-emphasize that you guys scare the shit out of me, way more than I could imagine scaring you.


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


Edited by kotik (09/19/07 05:59 PM)


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Student Tasered For Asking Sen. Kerry About Skull & Bones - Video (np) [Re: kotik]
    #7429313 - 09/19/07 06:08 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I would have bear hugged the kid, and carried him to an exit.

Far increasing the chances of the kid or someone else being injured compared to a quick taser zap.

Take off your blinders. Tasers are not instruments of torture. They're a modern, safe, and effective police tool that does what it's designed for: preventing injuries.

You have things backward. Thuggish force is what's brutal, not using a taser.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Offlinekotik
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Re: Student Tasered For Asking Sen. Kerry About Skull & Bones - Video (np) [Re: Diploid]
    #7429390 - 09/19/07 06:27 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
I would have bear hugged the kid, and carried him to an exit.

Far increasing the chances of the kid or someone else being injured compared to a quick taser zap.

Take off your blinders. Tasers are not instruments of torture. They're a modern, safe, and effective police tool that does what it's designed for: preventing injuries.

You have things backward. Thuggish force is what's brutal, not using a taser.




haha, and as predicted you just needed a quick response to pick apart. enjoy it, that was a bone i threw just for you. If you are satisfied now, I hope we can move past what actions I may or may not have done in a hypothetical situation, without actually knowing what it's like anyways. Seems a bit irrelevant to me, how either of us suppose we may or may not have acted.

if you can truly predict yours, and every other persons moves, than you are probably a) a ninja, and b) bored most of the time.

p.s. i own and have used a taser. also have a sig .40, .38 and a .22. I've used all those as well, along with a decent array of automatic rifles, and some classic remingtons. I'm also aware of how to restrain people, as I was assigned as an MP for a while, and had to go through all the extra training required.

The difference between taser / physical force is again hypothetical! Some people die from tasers. Nobody asks about heart conditions or anything like that before they tase you. Your, and my own preferences are completely subjective.


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


Edited by kotik (09/19/07 06:34 PM)


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Student Tasered For Asking Sen. Kerry About Skull & Bones - Video (np) [Re: Diploid]
    #7429392 - 09/19/07 06:27 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

The tazer is safe and prevents injury, except for when it causes injury and death.

http://blogs.zmag.org/ee_links/death_by_taser_lazy_cops_and_a_lazy_reporter

Care to a see a link about a schizophrenic in a wheel chair who was lethaly zapped?


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Offlinekotik
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Re: Student Tasered For Asking Sen. Kerry About Skull & Bones - Video (np) [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #7429424 - 09/19/07 06:37 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
The tazer is safe and prevents injury, except for when it causes injury and death.

http://blogs.zmag.org/ee_links/death_by_taser_lazy_cops_and_a_lazy_reporter

Care to a see a link about a schizophrenic in a wheel chair who was lethaly zapped?




but thats from 2005. how about a story from today:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/wkmg/20070919/lo_wkmg/14147512

Quote:


Wed Sep 19, 9:38 AM ET
Wheelchair-Bound Woman Dies After Being Shocked With Taser 10 Times

A Clay County woman's family said it's seeking justice after their loved one died shortly after being shocked 10 times with Taser guns during a confrontation with police.

Officers said they arrived to find Delafield in a wheelchair, armed with two knives and a hammer. Police said the woman was swinging the weapons at family members and police.

Within an hour of her call to 911, Delafield, a wheelchair-bound woman documented to have mental illness, was dead.

Family attorney Rick Alexander said Delafield's death could have been prevented and that there are four things that jump out at him about the case.

"One, she's in a wheelchair. Two, she's schizophrenic. Three, they're using a Taser on a person that's in a wheelchair, and then four is that they tasered her 10 times for a period of like two minutes," Alexander said.

According to a police report, one of the officers used her Taser gun nine times for a total of 160 seconds and the other officer discharged his Taser gun once for a total of no more than five seconds.




edit: oops, i see you already noticed. lol

Quote:

Care to a see a link about a schizophrenic in a wheel chair who was lethaly zapped?




--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


Edited by kotik (09/19/07 06:39 PM)


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Student Tasered For Asking Sen. Kerry About Skull & Bones - Video (np) [Re: kotik]
    #7429704 - 09/19/07 07:42 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

The difference between taser / physical force is again hypothetical!

Nope.

From a document on taser statistics. PM if you want a copy for yourself:

--

The Orange County (Florida) sheriff's department recorded an injury rate drop of ~80% when they stopped manhandling suspects and began using tasers. Source: Orlando Sentinel July 29, 2002

The Phoenix PD recorded a 67% drop. Source: Report issued by the PPD December, 2003

The Glenn Country (California) sheriff's office reported a 100% drop in injuries in 2006 after they started using tasers. There were ZERO injuries the entire year. Source: Sgt. Todd James Sacramento PD, February 17, 2007.

Putnam County (Florida) sheriff reports an 86% drop in injuries since they started using tasers. Source: Palatka Daily News, August 11, 2006

South Bend (Indiana) PD saw a drop of 66% in injuries since they started using tasers. Before, we used to have officers who got broken hands or broken arms - you name it - in physical altercations. Now, instead of having officers off for six months with various broken bones, the worst thing we see happening is officers with bad knees from chasing peopple". Source: Journal Gazette, March 6, 2006

And it goes on...

Austin Police officer injuries down 50%, suspect injuries down 82%. Source: Austin Chronicle Home, July 29, 2005

Charlotte-Mecklenburg PD: Officer injuries down 59%, suspect injuries down 79%.

Cape Coral (Florida) PD, officer injuries down 93%, suspect injuries down 68%.

Topeca, officers injuries down 46%, suspect injuries down 41%.

Sarasota (FLorida) PD. injuries down 65.

Hialeah (Florida) PD: Injuries down 95%

Omaha PD. Injuries down 47%

Garner (North Carolina) PD, down 38%

El Paso TX, down 59%

Cincinnati PD: officer injuries down 56%, suspect injuries down 35%

Columbus PD, officer down 23%, suspect down 24%.

Totonto: 100% drop in injuries. That's right, they went from putting many suspects and officers in hospitals with broken bones one year to ZERO injuries the next.

Oakland County: 100% drop in injuries.

Long Beach: 25% drop in injuries to officers, 33% drop for suspects.

And I'm only a quarter of the way through the document.

--

You guys are having an irrational knee-jerk reaction to the idea of an electric shock: The taser is electric, it shocks people, so it must automatically be a bad thing. Well, it's not. And it's way better than a billyclub.

You can bury your head in the sand all you like. The truth of the statistics won't go away: tasers prevent harm compared to brutish physical force.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Offlinekotik
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Re: Student Tasered For Asking Sen. Kerry About Skull & Bones - Video (np) [Re: Diploid]
    #7429761 - 09/19/07 07:56 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

lol, well if the police say their new toys are better... than I guess I'll just take their word for it.

I wonder where that lady in the wheelchair fit into those stats.


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Student Tasered For Asking Sen. Kerry About Skull & Bones - Video (np) [Re: kotik]
    #7429791 - 09/19/07 08:03 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

lol, well if the police say their new toys are better... than I guess I'll just take their word for it.

You make it seem like this is opinion. It's not. There are numbers behind it showing a clear reduction in injuries when tasers are used instead of brute force.

I wonder where that lady in the wheelchair fit into those stats.

I'm not sure what you're asking here. That tasers can be used improperly has no bearing on whether or not they are better than brute force for controlling suspects.

That lady in a wheelchair could have been stomped on by a brute police officer with a billyclub instead of assaulted with a taser. So what?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Student Tasered For Asking Sen. Kerry About Skull & Bones - Video (np) [Re: Diploid]
    #7429803 - 09/19/07 08:05 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

You can bury your head in the sand all you like. The truth of the statistics won't go away: tasers prevent harm compared to brutish physical force.




I'm not arguing that though. I addressed your comment that tazers alone, are safe and harmless. They have injured and killed some people.

That is all.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Student Tasered For Asking Sen. Kerry About Skull & Bones - Video (np) [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #7429815 - 09/19/07 08:08 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

They have injured and killed some people.

So have billyclubs and brute force. In the final analysis, fewer people are hurt when a taser is used verses when a bunch of cops manhandle a suspect into custody.

That's why they're used. To PROTECT suspects from injury.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Student Tasered For Asking Sen. Kerry About Skull & Bones - Video (np) [Re: Diploid]
    #7429848 - 09/19/07 08:14 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I didn't argue that dip. If a person is posing a serious threat of physical harm to an officer, or other civilians the cops gotta do what he's gotta do to subdue him. I'm okay with billy clubs, or tazers in such a case. If they are apprehending at the scene of the crime, a rapist, child molester, or bank robber driving like a mad man down the highways, I don't care if they shoot them dead.

I just wanted to correct your statement that tazers are safe and harmless. In some instances they have caused injury and death.

That is all.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Student Tasered For Asking Sen. Kerry About Skull & Bones - Video (np) [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #7430727 - 09/20/07 12:24 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

> I just wanted to correct your statement that tazers are safe and harmless. In some instances they have caused injury and death.

I don't disagree. As I said in an earlier post, I wish police would treat a tazer as with more respect (from a lethal weapon standpoint). However, given the choice, I will take a tazer shock over a bullet any day of the week. Also, lets not forget that people die from being restrained as well. At the same time, this video shows just how effective a tazer can be. The kid was resisting for almost two minutes before getting tazed. After getting tazed, he is removed from the room in under ten seconds. Very effective. Once outside the auditorium, we see that the kid is fine, and is more worried about finding his book than having just been tazed.


--------------------
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InvisibleBridgeburner
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Re: Student Tasered For Asking Sen. Kerry About Skull & Bones - Video (np) [Re: Seuss]
    #7431068 - 09/20/07 04:37 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

that video was sick. the cops were on him like a pack of rabid dogs and THEY COULDN'T HANDLE THE SITUATION. yes, the guy HAD A RIGHT to ask those questions. and kerry had a right not to answer those. it was a dialogue between the candidate and the questioneer, but the cops fucked him up. it's a disgrace.


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