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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Student Tasered For Asking Sen. Kerry About Skull & Bones - Video (np) [Re: ChesterCopperpot]
    #7424880 - 09/18/07 06:01 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Ack, I it continue by mistake...

> His first minute+ of questioning was not rambling

Of course it was... it took him 40 seconds to ask a question. Kerry asked him THREE TIMES "what is your question?". If you don't call his 40 second tirade a ramble, I don't know what you would call a ramble?

> The police reaction was totally out of line.

The beginning of the police action appeared to be directed by the guy in the suit. The police were following the request of the moderator, from what I can tell.

If anybody was out of line, it was the moderator for asking the police to step in. However, the getting tased bit, the guy deserved every bit of it. They gave him almost two full minutes to quit resisting before finally resorting to painful force.

> I believe that Kerry is sincere in his "general" support of Meyers and "general" disapproval of police actions.

I can't know Kerry's motives, but I suspect he is trying to keep from being seen as the bad guy more than anything else. I could be wrong on this one.


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Offlinekotik
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Re: Student Tasered For Asking Sen. Kerry About Skull & Bones - Video (np) [Re: Seuss]
    #7424917 - 09/18/07 06:10 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

whether you guys agree with him or not, and whether you think the cops' reaction was justified or not, I am glad there are people like Meyers that will ask these types of questions in a public forum.

Obviously, if anyone knew he was a conspiracy theorist that would mention Skull and Bones, they would not let him ask questions anyways - what other option does a person have, if they refuse to ask scripted questions?

Again, I don't know his character, but as a third party observer, with no personal stake in this particular event - I'm POSITIVE that tasing this person was not the best solution. To all those saying the tasing was justified, in all honesty, have you been tased by a police-grade taser before?

It's easy to prescribe punishments and reactions to things in hindsight, and without any direct involvement. Even easier when you have neither had a question that was so avoided and mocked, and never experienced the suggested consequence.

I agree once the moderator asks you to leave, you leave. Even Alex Jones goes peacefully, but he shouts the whole time. It's one thing if he got tased right after breaking away from the first cops, but being tased while already subdued and surrounded by police? come on... you guys are usually stubborn, and borderline coldhearted on this forum, but this is a new low.

Obviously that huge black cop had the kid under control. At what point did the tasers need to come out? The number of fatalities in Florida alone due to police tasers is unheard of. We're talking an average of 50,000 volt shocks here.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Student Tasered For Asking Sen. Kerry About Skull & Bones - Video (np) [Re: kotik]
    #7425008 - 09/18/07 06:36 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

> I am glad there are people like Meyers that will ask these types of questions in a public forum.

To the contrary, I am glad that there are people that will ask these types of questions; however, it is unfortunate that they are like Meyers. Any message the guy was trying to convey was lost in his immature manic ramble. Had the guy been mature, calm, collect, and asked his questions like a normal person, rather than acting like a two year old throwing a temper tantrum, then I would agree with you completely. I had no problem with the message, but the messenger was a bit loony.

> have you been tased by a police-grade taser before?

Yep. The 50,000 volt stun guns are nothing. Hardly hurt. More shock value than anything else. Get in the 250,000V to 500,000V range and it is a completely different story. I have tested many different ones (on myself) and speak from experience.

> but being tased while already subdued and surrounded by police?

Actually, he was tased after one hand got cuffed and he started to resist / get up. This is a very dangerous situation for the police, as the wrist with the cuff on it becomes a weapon if the guy gets free and starts to swing his new metal club. I doubt they would have zapped him if he didn't have at the cuff on his one wrist, but I can't know for certain. However, had he gotten free with the cuff on one wrist, a little electric shock would have been the least of his worries. At that point, had it happened, the police would have been justified in using deadly force.

> Obviously that huge black cop had the kid under control.

Watch again. Obviously he didn't. The guy was spun on adrenaline and was in the process of getting up. Look at the picture I posted a page or two back. This was less than a second before the taser went off. The kid was half way half way up off the ground with four cops pushing him down. Under control? Hardly.

I agree things could have been handled differently, but in the heat of the moment, the cops, from everything I have seen, acted correctly. The moderator... maybe, maybe not... can't say there... and the kid... definitely not. Once you are asked to leave, you leave. Simple.

Did you watch the part out in the hall after they removed him- where he is screaming that the police are going to kill him, or give him to the government (whatever that means) and refused to identify himself, had not brought ID, called it the "Kerry Protest", etc... some people live in a reality different from the rest of us... this kid seems to be one of those.


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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Re: Student Tasered For Asking Sen. Kerry About Skull & Bones - Video (np) [Re: kotik]
    #7425029 - 09/18/07 06:38 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

This made the front page of CNN:


Florida campus cops on leave after Taser incident

(CNN) -- Two University of Florida police officers have been placed on leave with pay after using an electronic stun gun to subdue a student who was questioning Sen. John Kerry at a campus forum, the school's president said Tuesday.

The Florida Division of Law Enforcement will investigate Monday's arrest of student Andrew Meyer, said J. Bernard Machen. Machen called the incident "regretful for us."

"The thing that I regret is that civil dialogue and civil discourse did not happen," Machen said. "That's fundamental to a university campus. Why it didn't happen is what we're trying to sort out."

During Monday's forum, Meyer came to the microphone to question why the 2004 Democratic presidential nominee from Massachusetts did not contest his loss to President Bush in the pivotal state of Ohio over allegations that African-American voters were disenfranchised, why he did not support Bush's impeachment and whether he belonged to the Yale University secret society Skull and Bones, as Bush did.

Meyer had about a minute and a half at the microphone before police stepped in to haul him away. As he tried to escape their grip, Kerry protested, "That's all right, let me answer his question." Watch the incident unfold ยป

But as Meyer repeatedly questioned why he was being arrested, officers dragged him to the back of the auditorium and then used a Taser on him when he continued to struggle.

While Kerry pleaded for calm, officers warned the student he would be shocked if he did not stop resisting.

Meyer responded, "What did I do? Get off me ... get the f--- off me, man, I didn't do anything. Don't Tase me, bro, I didn't do anything."

Meyer was charged with resisting arrest with violence -- a felony -- and a misdemeanor count of disturbing the peace. He was released without having to post bond Tuesday.

Machen said the clips posted online paint an incomplete picture of the scene.

University spokesman Steve Orlando said before police moved in, Meyer was asked to relinquish the microphone because he was "being disruptive."

But the arrest triggered a protest by a group of University of Florida students Tuesday. One of them, Benjamin Dictor, called the arrest "an assault on reason itself."

"For a question to be met with arrest, not to mention physical violence, is completely unacceptable in the United States," Dictor said.

Some students cheered Meyer's removal, and others looked on quietly. But several screamed in protest when officers prepared to shock him.

Meyer has a Web site that features videos of him taking part in several practical jokes. It also includes a "disorganized diatribe" that criticizes the war in Iraq and the media.

In a statement issued Tuesday, Kerry said he didn't know a Taser had been used on the student until after he left the event, and said he hoped no one was injured.

"In 37 years of public appearances, through wars, protests and highly emotional events, I have never had a dialogue end this way," he said.

"I believe I could have handled the situation without interruption, but again, I do not know what warnings or other exchanges transpired between the young man and the police prior to his barging to the front of the line and their intervention."

Machen said authorities have not determined whether Tasers were used improperly.

In addition, he said a student-faculty review panel will examine "all of our protocols relative to student dialogue and faculty interaction" in the wake of the incident.

-----------------------------------------


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Student Tasered For Asking Sen. Kerry About Skull & Bones - Video (np) [Re: kotik]
    #7425039 - 09/18/07 06:40 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

At what point did the tasers need to come out?

When he started resisting arrest.

You seem to think that using a taser is somehow worse than five or six big guys twisting the guy's joints and pushing him into the ground for several minutes in order to get handcuffs on him is somehow better than a quick, clean zap with a taser, then it's over. You're wrong.

Injury rates to suspects go down in virtually all police departments when they begin using tasers. That's why they're used.

Why doesn't anyone get this? Why does everyone want the police to be brutes instead of technicians?


--------------------
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2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
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4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Student Tasered For Asking Sen. Kerry About Skull & Bones - Video (np) [Re: kotik]
    #7425081 - 09/18/07 06:48 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I think I have put enough time into this topic... unless something new comes up, I'm going to bow out of this debate.

> Injury rates to suspects go down in virtually all police departments when they begin using tasers.

I wish police would train with (and treat) tasers as deadly weapons rather than use them at the slightest hint of an excuse. Other than that, I agree with you completely. Again, in this particular case, I feel the use of the taser was justified (with the guy getting up and one hand already cuffed).


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Offlinekotik
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Re: Student Tasered For Asking Sen. Kerry About Skull & Bones - Video (np) [Re: Seuss]
    #7425146 - 09/18/07 07:01 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

> I am glad there are people like Meyers that will ask these types of questions in a public forum.

To the contrary, I am glad that there are people that will ask these types of questions; however, it is unfortunate that they are like Meyers.  Any message the guy was trying to convey was lost in his immature manic ramble.  Had the guy been mature, calm, collect, and asked his questions like a normal person, rather than acting like a two year old throwing a temper tantrum, then I would agree with you completely.  I had no problem with the message, but the messenger was a bit loony.




i agree with you 100%.  i mean, the type of person that would even know about that question let alone ask it is what im saying.  im not going to defend any showboating, although i would never say a taser is justified in this type of event.

Quote:

> have you been tased by a police-grade taser before?

Yep. The 50,000 volt stun guns are nothing.  Hardly hurt.  More shock value than anything else.  Get in the 250,000V to 500,000V range and it is a completely different story.  I have tested many different ones (on myself) and speak from experience.




ok, part 2 of this question - how long did you tase yourself for?  when i tase myself, its for about a second or two.  when its from the cops, its more like 5+.  there is a HUGE difference, unless you are a masochist, in which case - more power to you (pun intended).

ill just restate, that anyone saying that this kid was 'asking for it' or 'deserved it' is stating this from a very comfortable chair with a/c blasting, and probably some cheetos nearby.  but they are probably bold flavored; how daring  :smile:


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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


Edited by kotik (09/18/07 07:02 PM)


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Offlinekotik
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Re: Student Tasered For Asking Sen. Kerry About Skull & Bones - Video (np) [Re: Diploid]
    #7425166 - 09/18/07 07:05 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
At what point did the tasers need to come out?

When he started resisting arrest.

You seem to think that using a taser is somehow worse than five or six big guys twisting the guy's joints and pushing him into the ground for several minutes in order to get handcuffs on him is somehow better than a quick, clean zap with a taser, then it's over. You're wrong.




and you seem to be implying you are qualified to decide this, and have already compared the two.


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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Student Tasered For Asking Sen. Kerry About Skull & Bones - Video (np) [Re: kotik]
    #7425278 - 09/18/07 07:31 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

> how long did you tase yourself for?

At 50kv, for a while (few seconds) without any real effect. On my arm it did nothing at all. On my stomach, I clenched up for a few seconds, but nothing I couldn't work through. At 250kv, I don't really remember/couldn't say. It took me down hard and fast.


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OfflineToTheSummit
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Re: Student Tasered For Asking Sen. Kerry About Skull & Bones - Video (np) [Re: Seuss]
    #7425408 - 09/18/07 07:55 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

The more information comes out about this incident the more I am shocked to see anybody continuing to defend this guys actions. He was clearly attempting to create a disturbance, and succeeded in doing so. His opinions/questions/point of view are irrelevant to the situation. He handled himself poorly and provoked all action taken against him. There was no so-called 'dialouge' occuring between himself and Kerry, and I doubt there ever would've been had they let him ramble for another 5 minutes. I wouldn't be suprised if he went in there with full intention of pushing it to the very point that he would get "assulted" by the police in front of hundreds of witnesses. No doubt he'll have a law suit filed before the week is out.

This idiot did nothing but damage the cause of people who think like him and want some of the same questions asked.


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Offlinekotik
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Re: Student Tasered For Asking Sen. Kerry About Skull & Bones - Video (np) [Re: ToTheSummit]
    #7425457 - 09/18/07 08:02 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

ha, well coldhearted and now jumping the gun with ad hominem attacks to-boot! Let's all just wait a while before we claim to know this guys character and background, jesus.


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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


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OfflineToTheSummit
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Re: Student Tasered For Asking Sen. Kerry About Skull & Bones - Video (np) [Re: kotik]
    #7425488 - 09/18/07 08:06 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I don't know, seems like everyone in this thread has done a good job so far of making assumptions about this guy. I'm just calling it like I see it from the evidence we have so far. I'll be the first to say my opinions are just that and I don't know any more then the rest of you here.

But regardless, the guy was still an idiot in his handling of it all. That can be seen plain enough in the video.


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Re: Student Tasered For Asking Sen. Kerry About Skull & Bones - Video (np) [Re: kotik]
    #7425554 - 09/18/07 08:17 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

kotik writes:

Quote:

The number of fatalities in Florida alone due to police tasers is unheard of.




First of all, these aren't Florida police, they're University security staff.

Secondly, I'd really like to see some statistics from credible sources on the number of people killed by police using tasers in Florida in say the last ten years.




Phred


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Offlinekotik
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Re: Student Tasered For Asking Sen. Kerry About Skull & Bones - Video (np) [Re: ToTheSummit]
    #7425562 - 09/18/07 08:19 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

But regardless, the guy was still an idiot in his handling of it all. That can be seen plain enough in the video.




i still disagree. inexperienced, perhaps. but that does not automatically make you an idiot.

if we are discussing our favorite albums, and then all of a sudden someone throws you a football and you are tackled to the ground - I wouldn't call you an idiot, because you didn't know what was coming next.

If he knew he would be tasered, than he is an idiot. If he knew he would be tasered, and then on CNN / Fox, then he's a genius.

In either scenario, I would want him to pick my lottery numbers from now on, and i may even try that James Randi Challenge.

Quote:

Phred said:
I'd really like to see some statistics from credible sources on the number of people killed by police using tasers in Florida in say the last ten years.





me too, please post asap.


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


Edited by kotik (09/18/07 08:21 PM)


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Student Tasered For Asking Sen. Kerry About Skull & Bones - Video (np) [Re: kotik]
    #7425616 - 09/18/07 08:32 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

If he knew he would be tasered, than he is an idiot.




Then he is an idiot. Because in at least one of the videos (the one I posted) it is quite obvious once they have him down on the ground that one of the cops is telling the guy that if he won't let them cuff him, he is gonna get tasered. So yeah... he knew he was gonna get tasered -- IF he didn't co-operate. His choice all the way.

As I said earlier... comedy gold, man.



Phred


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Offlinekotik
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Re: Student Tasered For Asking Sen. Kerry About Skull & Bones - Video (np) [Re: Phred]
    #7425668 - 09/18/07 08:44 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Quote:

If he knew he would be tasered, than he is an idiot.




Then he is an idiot. Because in at least one of the videos (the one I posted) it is quite obvious once they have him down on the ground that one of the cops is telling the guy that if he won't let them cuff him, he is gonna get tasered. So yeah... he knew he was gonna get tasered -- IF he didn't co-operate. His choice all the way.

As I said earlier... comedy gold, man.



Phred




again, this is obvious to a third party observer that's able to analyze these things in depth over the course of a few minutes, review their opinion, etc. It's not an accurate comparison, taking into account how quick this happened, the additional factor of being in a large public forum, and quite obviously adrenalin running through your system.

To a police officer, or perhaps a convict - the instant reaction of submission / compliance would be obvious. To a college kid that's just old enough to drink, it's another thing entirely. Again, lack of experience does not equal idiocy.


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Re: Student Tasered For Asking Sen. Kerry About Skull & Bones - Video (np) [Re: Phred]
    #7425671 - 09/18/07 08:45 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

i can't believe this has become the thread it has.

Everyone knows you don't ask the elected about their shit!

waht did he think was gonna happen?

People might be like, oh! someone called them out.

now if only we could get the rest of the world as interested as us "drug crazed hippies".


















Carry on!!!!! dissmeinate! my lovely brethren, and sistren. Terminus Novus Seclorum Ordo, or what4ver/


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Student Tasered For Asking Sen. Kerry About Skull & Bones - Video (np) [Re: kotik]
    #7425758 - 09/18/07 09:00 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

again, this is obvious to a third party observer that's able to analyze these things in depth over the course of a few minutes, review their opinion, etc.




Fuck me. You are just determined to lay this on everyone except the fool who brought it on himself, aren't you?

How many minutes of "analyzing in depth" does it take anyone with an IQ higher than pocket lint to understand that when you're pinned to the ground by a bunch of big dudes, and one of them holding a taser shows it to you and says, "If you don't let us cuff you, you're gonna get zapped," then you had better let them cuff you? There's not a whole lot of nuance to try to puzzle out, here.

Now let's remember this guy is a student at a university, so he's not likely to be suffering from Down's Syndrome. Admittedly, he's not the brightest guy I've ever seen (his belief that Greg Palast is "the top investigative journalist in America" gives us a pretty clear indication that he's no rocket scientist), but let's face it -- you don't need a PhD in Communications Theory to understand a simple declarative sentence like, "Sir, stop fighting or I'm gonna zap you."

Give it up, dude.




Phred


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Student Tasered For Asking Sen. Kerry About Skull & Bones - Video (np) [Re: Phred]
    #7425792 - 09/18/07 09:08 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

As a side note, did anyone else catch the way that preening useless waste of human flesh in a suit (I refer to John F'ing Kerry, of course) agreed that Bush stole the election?

An honorable man listening to a ranting moonbat prattle on and on about how he had really won the election would have said something like "Well, no, actually I lost the election. But what's your question?"

Not our John-boy. Re-read Seuss's transcript for Kerry's comment -- "Correct".

We all dodged a bullet when Kerry lost in 2004.





Phred


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Re: Student Tasered For Asking Sen. Kerry About Skull & Bones - Video (np) [Re: Phred]
    #7425827 - 09/18/07 09:16 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I would like to stress the point that this was a college campus with the goal of student education. The college formed this event as an opportunity for students. College encourages critical thinking and has a history of activism. Take this situation into a classroom context... Kerry has been invited as a source of current political debate and the students are there to observe and remark. Think about the perspective of the teachers, students, and John Kerry concerning Meyer. Did they see him as a threat? Did they see him as such an annoyance that they needed the cops to restrain him? Of course I cannot assume what they thought. This really comes down to the behavior of the cops. From my military experience I can guess that these guys had a full briefing and warm up on security concerning such a high profile personality as John Kerry. I can only assume that the cops were hyped up and ready to put on their best behavior for a guest of that magnitude. Ok..now I am going into assumption mode--- the cops were on edge and ready for anything (like an assassination attempt). So the moment things got "out of hand" (a young adult carrying on about far-left politics and not stopping) the cops went into full-on defensive mode. The problem is that the drastic measures that the police took were completely out of context giving the circumstances. I believe that this is another example of police brutality that can be attributed to a lack of training and understanding.


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Ancalagon 4,619 31 08/16/04 08:55 PM
by Ancalagon
* Kerry's "Cambodian Christmas" etc.
( 1 2 3 all )
Phred 3,464 55 08/22/04 05:26 AM
by Xlea321

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