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SlvrZeta
~Asi



Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 200
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Shoplifting can be morally right.
#7420406 - 09/17/07 04:46 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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My spirits are lifted when I shoplift from corporate companies/chain grocery stores. I do not steal from little shops, mom & pop stores, etc. I like WalMart, Target, and the chain supermarkets. Here is my justification:
1) morality is subjective
2) the CEO of WalMart doesn't need another gold doorknob or Mercedes Benz.
3) Life is expensive as it is. How is it fair that the proletariat earn a shitty wage like $7.50/hr -- year after year -- when inflation is a constant battle? I don't know about you but my salary is still the same after 6 months --- and I can assure you gas prices, food prices, etc have ALL gone up in the past 6 months --- but I haven't had a raise to combat these threats.
4) people who would "never shoplift" are usually people who download music, DVDs, and video games --- all objects which cost money at a retail store.
5) Capitalism by its nature is all about stealing. For every dollar you have in your pocket, that is one less dollar somebody else has in theirs (I see some debates with this one --- zero-sum economy and all that).
6) The motto of capitalism: "YOU WORK I WIN!"
7) Is it fair that a gallon of milk should cost $4.99 (that is what it is in this state everywhere)?
8) Shoplifting a few items can ease the pain of actually having to use money, ie, like filling up your gas tank (although stealing gasoline can be a pastime for some).
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SlvrZeta
~Asi



Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 200
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: SlvrZeta]
#7420442 - 09/17/07 04:58 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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9) I can understand someone asking: "Why did you steal that 27'' plasma TV", a TV more or less isn't a human requirement. Food is.
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: SlvrZeta]
#7420468 - 09/17/07 05:03 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Well, morals are merely culturally defined norms. They don't really mean anything and they are quite arbitrary. If you violate certain of these norms you will not have to steal to eat as you will be provided with free room and board by the federal government. It is a sort of mandatory assistance they offer to those who feel the need to steal in order to provide for themselves. If I was going to steal I would just grab the plasma tv. The money I saved could be used to buy food "morally".
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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adrug

Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 15,800
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: SlvrZeta]
#7420475 - 09/17/07 05:05 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
SlvrZeta said: My spirits are lifted when I shoplift from corporate companies/chain grocery stores. I do not steal from little shops, mom & pop stores, etc. I like WalMart, Target, and the chain supermarkets. Here is my justification:
1) morality is subjective
2) the CEO of WalMart doesn't need another gold doorknob or Mercedes Benz.
3) Life is expensive as it is. How is it fair that the proletariat earn a shitty wage like $7.50/hr -- year after year -- when inflation is a constant battle? I don't know about you but my salary is still the same after 6 months --- and I can assure you gas prices, food prices, etc have ALL gone up in the past 6 months --- but I haven't had a raise to combat these threats.
4) people who would "never shoplift" are usually people who download music, DVDs, and video games --- all objects which cost money at a retail store.
5) Capitalism by its nature is all about stealing. For every dollar you have in your pocket, that is one less dollar somebody else has in theirs (I see some debates with this one --- zero-sum economy and all that).
6) The motto of capitalism: "YOU WORK I WIN!"
7) Is it fair that a gallon of milk should cost $4.99 (that is what it is in this state everywhere)?
8) Shoplifting a few items can ease the pain of actually having to use money, ie, like filling up your gas tank (although stealing gasoline can be a pastime for some).
You can rationalize all you want, but you're still just a thief.
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SlvrZeta
~Asi



Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 200
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#7420483 - 09/17/07 05:07 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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The federal government does an awful job at providing for the less fortunate. For such a wealthy nation, we have one of the highest homeless rates over many other industrialized nations.
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: SlvrZeta]
#7420485 - 09/17/07 05:07 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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IMO, if you truly felt that it was OK, you would not feel the need to justify your behavior. 
I don't believe in morality, and prefer to make my decisions based upon what the world would be like if everyone behaved the way I do. If it is still a world I would choose to live in, then my behavior is acceptable to me.
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SlvrZeta
~Asi



Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 200
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: Veritas]
#7420496 - 09/17/07 05:09 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said: IMO, if you truly felt that it was OK, you would not feel the need to justify your behavior. 
I'm sure you do things you feel are OK and yet you find yourself justifying those. As do many people. "John, you purchased another CD? That is the 5th CD this week". "Well I really like the artist! He just rocks on track #7, listen and you'll know what I mean!!"
Quote:
adrug said: You can rationalize all you want, but you're still just a thief.
That is about as powerful of a statement adrug as me going to a gay man: "Rationalize all you want, but you're still homo".
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: SlvrZeta]
#7420504 - 09/17/07 05:12 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Why justify anything you do? Merely do or do not. Justification is a waste of personal power.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: SlvrZeta]
#7420510 - 09/17/07 05:13 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Nope. If I feel it is OK, then I don't think about it afterward. Except to enjoy, of course. If I think that my decision was not-so-great, then I'll consider why I disapprove. Any attempts on my part to justify behavior are cause for suspicion and self-examination.
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'


Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 3,198
Last seen: 14 years, 8 months
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: SlvrZeta]
#7420856 - 09/17/07 06:26 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I fully agree with you and steal myself on occasion - mostly expensive health food and herbal medicine type items, but occasionally clothing or camping equipment. I tend to steal things that are utilitarian, but outside of a reasonable price range. I also don't think it's any more 'wrong' to steal luxury items than simple necessities. But then I'm amoral...
I think the only phrase you need to argue in favour of shoplifting is Proudhon's 'property is theft.' What this means is that capitalism itself is a gigantic sytem designed to allow one class to steal the time and labour of the working class, therefore shoplifting is a small way of expropriating some of what is stolen from us every single day. One could even argue, if they wanted to, that shoplifting is more morally correct than purchasing items. But that is a whole realm I don't have the energy or will to delve into at the moment.
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'


Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 3,198
Last seen: 14 years, 8 months
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: Veritas]
#7420862 - 09/17/07 06:28 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said: Nope. If I feel it is OK, then I don't think about it afterward. Except to enjoy, of course. If I think that my decision was not-so-great, then I'll consider why I disapprove. Any attempts on my part to justify behavior are cause for suspicion and self-examination.
Have you never done anything that you felt was completely acceptable according to your own moral standards, yet most people find completely unacceptable? In such a situation would you not feel to need to defend yourself against those who criticize you for your immorality?
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Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate



Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 8,775
Last seen: 3 days, 17 hours
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7420872 - 09/17/07 06:31 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Proudhon was a smart guy, I enjoy his writing. If anyone's interested.
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!

Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: SlvrZeta]
#7420886 - 09/17/07 06:34 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
SlvrZeta said: My spirits are lifted when I shoplift from corporate companies/chain grocery stores. I do not steal from little shops, mom & pop stores, etc. I like WalMart, Target, and the chain supermarkets. Here is my justification:
1) morality is subjective
2) the CEO of WalMart doesn't need another gold doorknob or Mercedes Benz.
3) Life is expensive as it is. How is it fair that the proletariat earn a shitty wage like $7.50/hr -- year after year -- when inflation is a constant battle? I don't know about you but my salary is still the same after 6 months --- and I can assure you gas prices, food prices, etc have ALL gone up in the past 6 months --- but I haven't had a raise to combat these threats.
4) people who would "never shoplift" are usually people who download music, DVDs, and video games --- all objects which cost money at a retail store.
5) Capitalism by its nature is all about stealing. For every dollar you have in your pocket, that is one less dollar somebody else has in theirs (I see some debates with this one --- zero-sum economy and all that).
6) The motto of capitalism: "YOU WORK I WIN!"
7) Is it fair that a gallon of milk should cost $4.99 (that is what it is in this state everywhere)?
8) Shoplifting a few items can ease the pain of actually having to use money, ie, like filling up your gas tank (although stealing gasoline can be a pastime for some).
so you take your frustration, frustration that is caused because you are a failure at life, out on corporations and justify it with this bullshit? It isnt the governments job to take care of you. That is your job. It is the governments job to ensure a safe, cohesive society. Chances are, you are probably such a fuck-up that you waste what little money you have on stupid shit and then cry when your electricity gets turned off, so you think that it is ok to steal the stupid, useless, shiny object that you think you deserve to save money for lifes needs... No one garauntee's you happiness. Life isnt fair. The funny thing is that it is people exactly like you who shout "socialism/communism is the way!".... which are the very people who fuck up societies like that.
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'


Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 3,198
Last seen: 14 years, 8 months
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: SneezingPenis]
#7420901 - 09/17/07 06:39 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Holy personalisms there buddy. Why don't you try and make a real argument?
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SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!

Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7420907 - 09/17/07 06:41 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I will take a little ban just to let this guy know how much of a waste of life he is. He is the epitome of niggerdom.
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'


Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 3,198
Last seen: 14 years, 8 months
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: SneezingPenis]
#7420911 - 09/17/07 06:42 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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the epitome of niggerdom?
Hey mods, can we get that little ban over here? Someone's begging for it.
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Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate



Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 8,775
Last seen: 3 days, 17 hours
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: SneezingPenis]
#7420913 - 09/17/07 06:43 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Somebody's got a case of the Moooooondayyyyyyyyyys.
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!

Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: Lion]
#7420922 - 09/17/07 06:45 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I just find that it is an attitude like the one the thread starter has that is wrong with this country, and probably a few other countries.
They want to claim PLUR but they are really just looking out for number one.
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7420942 - 09/17/07 06:54 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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If you accept responsibility for your actions there is no need to defend anything.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: SlvrZeta]
#7420970 - 09/17/07 07:03 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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By stealing, you're taking away money from the employees, not the managers.
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'


Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 3,198
Last seen: 14 years, 8 months
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Mushman - That's simply not true. This is sometimes the case in restaurants, but it is not true in retail establishments, and it is not true in any place that I have ever worked. If you are refering to some arcane economic principle, and arguing that the profit discrepancy caused by shoplifting comes out of wages, that's ridiculous. Wages are determined by many factors (legal minimum wages, unions, trends within the field, etc.) Employers on principle keep wages as low as possible, and use things like shoplifting as an argument to defend themselves, when really, the wages would be as low as possible regardless.
Huehue, I disagree. What if you hold a value that is not shared by a close friend or family member, and they are telling you off for doing something they think is wrong? Would you roll over and let them berate you, or would you attempt to explain how and why your values differ from thiers? I know and care about many people who's values are not always in line with mine (considering how unconventional my perspective is, this is rather common.) Because I care about these people, I prefer to engage in a dialogue about our differences, explaining how I came to the conclusions I have regarding my ethics. I can take complete responsibility for myself and my actions but also defend them for the sake of being understood by others (and not needlessly persecuted due to misunderstanding.) It's silly to think that defending one's ideas somehow reflects a shortcoming or lack of true belief when it is really about communication and clarity. Talking about things is, after all, how we develop and challenge ourselves and one another.
Edited by NiamhNyx (09/17/07 07:36 PM)
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RandalFlagg
Stranger

Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: SlvrZeta]
#7421151 - 09/17/07 07:57 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
SlvrZeta said: 2) the CEO of WalMart doesn't need another gold doorknob or Mercedes Benz.
Actually, the executives at Wal-Mart are renowned for their frugality. The CEO has a tiny and austere office (I've seen it on TV) and stays in $60 a night hotel rooms. I'm not sure what his pay is off the top of my head though.
Quote:
SlvrZeta said: 3) Life is expensive as it is. How is it fair that the proletariat earn a shitty wage like $7.50/hr -- year after year -- when inflation is a constant battle?
Because their labor isn't worth much. Running a cash register isn't difficult and thus it isn't valuable.
Quote:
SlvrZeta said: 5) Capitalism by its nature is all about stealing. For every dollar you have in your pocket, that is one less dollar somebody else has in theirs
Leftist drivel.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger

Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: SlvrZeta]
#7421171 - 09/17/07 08:02 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
SlvrZeta said: The federal government does an awful job at providing for the less fortunate. For such a wealthy nation, we have one of the highest homeless rates over many other industrialized nations.
The federal government shouldn't provide anything for anybody in my opinion. I think that we should support ourselves.
But, the federal government does give a shitload of free stuff to poor people. Some welfare mom who popped out four kids and earns $15,000 a year at some shit job will probably get a free public-subsidized apartment, free medical care for her kids (Medicaid), free schooling for her children (usually $10,000 per public school student), free food stamps every month, not be required to pay federal taxes (in fact she might even get a credit, i.e. the federal government gives her money), and on and on.
So, this hypothetical woman contributes nothing to the federal government and the federal government is probably spending at least $50,000 a year on her and her kids. Sounds like a sweet deal to me.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger

Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7421186 - 09/17/07 08:05 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
NiamhNyx said: I think the only phrase you need to argue in favour of shoplifting is Proudhon's 'property is theft.' What this means is that capitalism itself is a gigantic sytem designed to allow one class to steal the time and labour of the working class
hahaha hehehe hohoho
So, let's try to live in a communist country and watch economic output and material wealth for everybody plummet.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger

Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: SneezingPenis]
#7421198 - 09/17/07 08:07 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
YawningAnus said: I just find that it is an attitude like the one the thread starter has that is wrong with this country, and probably a few other countries.
They want to claim PLUR but they are really just looking out for number one.

People like this claim enlightenment and "disgust with the way things are" and use these things as justification to mooch and steal because they are lazy wastes.
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kotik
fuckingsuperhero


Registered: 06/29/04
Posts: 3,531
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: RandalFlagg]
#7421208 - 09/17/07 08:10 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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wooo fuck YA stealing.
I wouldn't condone it for a mom @ pop shop, or a local franchise, etc. but for walmart or target or kmart or etc. fuck it!
unload that shit by the truck if you can.
-------------------- No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger

Registered: 06/15/02
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: kotik]
#7421221 - 09/17/07 08:13 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Stealing is stealing. Whether you take from a rich man or a poor man it's still theft.
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: RandalFlagg]
#7421241 - 09/17/07 08:19 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
RandalFlagg said:
Quote:
SlvrZeta said: 3) Life is expensive as it is. How is it fair that the proletariat earn a shitty wage like $7.50/hr -- year after year -- when inflation is a constant battle?
Because their labor isn't worth much. Running a cash register isn't difficult and thus it isn't valuable.
They should be happy that they have not been replaced by a machine yet.
Edited by MushmanTheManic (09/17/07 08:24 PM)
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RandalFlagg
Stranger

Registered: 06/15/02
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They already are being replaced by machines.
And I'm sorry...but if you do some job that requires no skill and that is very easy you aren't going to earn much money at it.
Maybe people who work shit jobs shouldn't have four kids that they can't afford to aupport or maybe they should learn to live within their means.
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'


Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 3,198
Last seen: 14 years, 8 months
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: RandalFlagg]
#7421272 - 09/17/07 08:27 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Sure, then would you agree that colonization is stealing? Would you agree that the European imperialism resulted in the theft of a vast tracts of land? Because this theft was the engine of the development of capitalism, theft is it's very heart and soul. If it's wrong to steal dinner, than it's wrong to steal native land... If 'stealing is stealing' and it's unconditionally 'wrong' than the entire premise of the capitalist system is wrong. If the entire premise of the capitalist system is wrong than it's morally correct to attack it, or at least expropriate a tiny piece what was stolen from us in the first place.
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....



Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,908
Loc: My Youniverse....
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: RandalFlagg]
#7421287 - 09/17/07 08:29 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Just curious.... Have you ever used bootleg/hacked software, downloaded "illegal" music or other media....?
Just wondering if/how the relative "ease" of pushing buttons to steal and a lower "risk" factor plays a role in all of this....  Morality is a bitch, especially if you don't agree with the "norm"....
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7421296 - 09/17/07 08:31 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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What was stolen from you?
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RandalFlagg
Stranger

Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7421297 - 09/17/07 08:31 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
NiamhNyx said: Sure, then would you agree that colonization is stealing? Would you agree that the European imperialism resulted in the theft of a vast tracts of land?
Initially it did. But, that land has been given back to indigenous peoples. India rules itself. Pakistan rules itself. The African nations rule themselves(or at least they try to). etc..etc..
Quote:
NiamhNyx said: If 'stealing is stealing' and it's unconditionally 'wrong' than the entire premise of the capitalist system is wrong.
Capitalism does not have to entail colonialism and imperialism. A free market can exist without such infractions. And as I said, the native peoples now rule themselves and the European empires have relinquished such imperialistic exercises.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger

Registered: 06/15/02
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7421307 - 09/17/07 08:33 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
PhanTomCat said: Just curious.... Have you ever used bootleg/hacked software, downloaded "illegal" music or other media....?
Just wondering if/how the relative "ease" of pushing buttons to steal and a lower "risk" factor plays a role in all of this....  Morality is a bitch, especially if you don't agree with the "norm"....
A long long time ago I used a pirated version of Windows 98. Since then no. I have bought all of my CD's, movies, and computer software.
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'


Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 3,198
Last seen: 14 years, 8 months
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: RandalFlagg]
#7421310 - 09/17/07 08:33 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
RandalFlagg said: They already are being replaced by machines.
And I'm sorry...but if you do some job that requires no skill and that is very easy you aren't going to earn much money at it.
Maybe people who work shit jobs shouldn't have four kids that they can't afford to aupport or maybe they should learn to live within their means.
Have you ever tried to pay $600+ rent per month on $4-5 an hour? Or even $500 on $8 an hour... (plus food, utilities, transportation, utilitarian needs such as basic shoes and clothing fit to wear to your shitty job...)Please give this a shot and let me know how it works out for you.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger

Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7421319 - 09/17/07 08:37 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
NiamhNyx said: Have you ever tried to pay $600+ rent per month on $4-5 an hour? Or even $500 on $8 an hour... (plus food, utilities, transportation, utilitarian needs such as basic shoes and clothing fit to wear to your shitty job...)
Get a roommate. 
The minimum wage is $5.75 I believe and it is being raised nationwide to $7 something in the next few years. And yes, I have been poor before. I have been to the point where I weighed 115 pounds, my apartment's heat was set at 50 in the middle of the winter, and I had nothing. I still refuse to blame some "corporation" for my meager surroundings nor will I mooch off of the government or other people. I have too much pride and I will support myself without thieving from society.
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....



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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7421330 - 09/17/07 08:39 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
NiamhNyx said: Have you ever tried to pay $600+ rent per month on $4-5 an hour? Or even $500 on $8 an hour... (plus food, utilities, transportation, utilitarian needs such as basic shoes and clothing fit to wear to your shitty job...)Please give this a shot and let me know how it works out for you.
Yes, going thru school - for 3 years.... Roommates were key, and a necessity for living that lifestyle.... Worked at a restaurant, solved half of the food problem - the other half was Faygo pop, pot pies, mac'n cheese, etc etc.... And we car-pooled....
You can make due without stealing just fine if you put your mind to it....
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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RandalFlagg
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7421333 - 09/17/07 08:40 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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You mean survival takes effort? No!! That's totally unfair.
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MushmanTheManic
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: RandalFlagg]
#7421338 - 09/17/07 08:42 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yeah, wtf. Isn't everyone supposed to be rich and happy all the time?
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NiamhNyx
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: RandalFlagg]
#7421349 - 09/17/07 08:43 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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(you said) Initially it did. But, that land has been given back to indigenous peoples. India rules itself. Pakistan rules itself. The African nations rule themselves(or at least they try to). etc..etc..
Response: Interesting. How about Canada, the United States, Mexico, South America, much of the South Pacific, etc.. etc...
(you said) Capitalism does not have to entail colonialism and imperialism. A free market can exist without such infractions. And as I said, the native peoples now rule themselves and the European empires have relinquished such imperialistic exercises.
Response: As I already pointed out, entire continents are still colonized and will continue to be colonized in perpetuity. The free market never could have developed to the extent it did without Imperialism. Yes, the days of European Imperialism have come to a close (for many reasons, mainly because there is absolutely nowhere left to lay claim to,) but this does not negate the fact that the development of Capitalism required the wholesale theft of half of the planet. The essence of capitalism is theft. This is my point, you clearly do not deny it. My argument is that, if this premise is true, then it is ridiculous to believe that it is morally wrong to steal from a corporation. If Capital is theft, then expropriation is a natural and proper balancing mechanism.
Edited by NiamhNyx (09/17/07 08:46 PM)
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PhanTomCat
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: RandalFlagg]
#7421351 - 09/17/07 08:44 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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MushmanTheManic
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7421371 - 09/17/07 08:48 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Either theft is morally acceptable or not, make up yer damn mind or redefine property.
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NiamhNyx
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: RandalFlagg]
#7421383 - 09/17/07 08:51 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I have 2 roomates and my rent is $525 a month. It's next to impossible to live for any cheaper in my city, unless you want to live in a moldy, disease ridden shithole in the ghetto. Even then you'll be paying $400. I'm not complaining about my economic position though, I have a student loan so I'm living the high life. I also have access to middle class privilege in that my dad is well off and helps me if I need it (I prefer not to take his money most of the time, I have pride too you know.) The trouble is when I finish school and have $50,000 debt... I sure would appreciate a grant system instead, considering my education with inevitably benefit the economy.
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RandalFlagg
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7421396 - 09/17/07 08:55 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
NiamhNyx said: Interesting. How about Canada, the United States, Mexico, South America, much of the South Pacific, etc.. etc...
I would not equate a mass exodus of new people moving into a land as being "capitalism". Did the Indians get screwed? Yes. Does that have anything to do with the principles of the free-market and how efficient a system it is and how it provides unparalleled wealth to all classes? No. Poor people in American have roofs over their heads, food in their stomachs (they are often overweight), TV's, phones, electricity, and access to transportation. They are living better than 99% of the people who have lived throughout history.
Funny...do you remember when communist Russia took over Eastern Europe and made all of those countries puppet regimes?
Quote:
NiamhNyx said: If 'stealing is stealing' and it's unconditionally 'wrong' than the entire premise of the capitalist system is wrong.
Capitalism merely is a term to describe the free market. A free market is when people are left to engage in economic activity without excessive government interference. It should be noted that America is not %100 capitalist. We have minimum wage laws, interest rate controls, anti-monopoly laws, worker safety laws, etc.. There are tons of instances where the U.S. federal government interferes in economic affairs.
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NiamhNyx said: As I already pointed out, entire continents are still colonized and will continue to be colonized in perpetuity. The free market never could have developed to the extent it did without Imperialism.
Bullshit. No matter what the population trends and exoduses Mankind may have been engaged in a free market economy is still the best economic system for providing the highest possible material wealth to all of its participants.
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NiamhNyx said: The essence of capitalism is theft.
You are confusing the history of some nations and peoples with an economic system. I repeat: this economic system can and does exist without any type of imperialism or colonialism and also there were many instances of naked aggression by communist countries.
Quote:
NiamhNyx said: If Capital is theft, then expropriation is a natural and proper balancing mechanism.
Bull. That's nothing but Leftist-anarcho pseudo intellectual babble that attempts to justify taking something that isn't yours.
Edited by RandalFlagg (09/17/07 09:01 PM)
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NiamhNyx
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Quote:
MushmanTheManic said: Either theft is morally acceptable or not, make up yer damn mind or redefine property.
I'm attempting to illustrate the hypocrisy of the capitalist system. If capitalists believe that stealing is morally wrong, then they must also believe that that the way capitalism developed was morally wrong. If the way capitalism developed was morally wrong, than it is not so much of a leap to believe that it is morally right to attempt to balance the scales through petty theft and/or larger scale expropriation.
Morality is not black and white, Mushman. There is a pretty massive difference between stealing a continent and stealing a loaf of bread. I believe that theft is right or wrong depending on context. I do not believe it is right to steal from an impoverished individual, or from a small and struggling family business. I have no qualms stealing from Walmart or the Queen of England. The latter hoard wealth, the former have too little.
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RandalFlagg
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7421422 - 09/17/07 09:00 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
NiamhNyx said: The trouble is when I finish school and have $50,000 debt...
Millions of people are dealing with this same reality. Work hard, get your shit paid off, and save. 
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NiamhNyx said: I sure would appreciate a grant system instead, considering my education with inevitably benefit the economy.
If you are in the U.S. there are grants available at the state and federal level. Also, look into scholarships. And, lastly I would suggest getting good grades, working a part time job, and working your ass off. If you do these things you'll set yourself up for a good future and you'll get ahead. Then you can watch as the government takes a bunch of your money and gives it to other people who made dumb decisions (having too many kids, smoking cigarettes, not working very hard, etc..).
Yay for socialism!
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PhanTomCat
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7421461 - 09/17/07 09:07 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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So, do you think it would be OK for everyone in the US to go to the local Walmart and steal whatever they want....? Then go back tomorrow and do it again....? And again....?
Where do you start drawing the lines.... When is it "OK" for me to steal from you.....?
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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RandalFlagg
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7421474 - 09/17/07 09:09 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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My computer is acting kind of goofy lately. And given that he is using a computer (that was made under the evil economic system known as capitalism) then I should be able to just take it for my own purposes. After all, I deserve it!
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MushmanTheManic
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7421481 - 09/17/07 09:10 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
If capitalists believe that stealing is morally wrong, then they must also believe that that the way capitalism developed was morally wrong.
The way industrial capitalism developed may be morally wrong, and I think many capitalists would be willing to accept this, but that does not make a free-market system morally wrong in and of itself. In it's present incarnation in most of the Western world, I don't think capitalism is very exploitative nor do I see any system that works much better. Even in countries such as Sweden and Norway, a free-market economy still exists to some extent.
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RandalFlagg
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Quote:
MushmanTheManic said: The way industrial capitalism developed may be morally wrong, and I think many capitalists would be willing to accept this, but that does not make a free-market system morally wrong in and of itself. In it's present incarnation in most of the Western world, I don't think capitalism is very exploitative nor do I see any system that works much better. Even in countries such as Sweden and Norway, a free-market economy still exists to some extent.
Exactly.
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MushmanTheManic
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7421488 - 09/17/07 09:13 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
I believe that theft is right or wrong depending on context. I do not believe it is right to steal from an impoverished individual, or from a small and struggling family business. I have no qualms stealing from Walmart or the Queen of England. The latter hoard wealth, the former have too little.
The more property a person has, the less right they have to own it?
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RandalFlagg
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Classic Leftist class-envy/hatred that has no basis in logic or rationality.
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MushmanTheManic
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: RandalFlagg]
#7421510 - 09/17/07 09:20 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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To be honest, I have stolen many times. I think it is wrong... but at the time I didn't give a fuck.
Anything not nailed to the floor is mine.
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NiamhNyx
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: RandalFlagg]
#7421518 - 09/17/07 09:22 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I would not equate a mass exodus of new people moving into a land as being "capitalism". Did the Indians get screwed? Yes. Does that have anything to do with the principles of the free-market and how efficient a system it is and how it provides unparalleled wealth to all classes? No. Poor people in American have roofs over their heads, food in their stomachs (they are often overweight), TV's, phones, electricity, and access to transportation. They are living better than 99% of the people who have lived throughout history.
Funny...do you remember when communist Russia took over Eastern Europe and made all of those countries puppet regimes?
I don't think you understand the function of colonization with regards to the development of capital. Funny, we just discussed this today in my Modern History class, how convenient! Colonialism provided a resource base necessary to the growing Industrialism of the great powers of Europe. Britain, for example, was incapable of providing herself with the raw materials necessary for her continued development, thus looking elsewhere. Rubber and cotton were both extremely important commodities, thus the theft of India and other tropical colonies where such crops could be grown. The colonies provided a stable base of resources to exploit to continue feeding the ever voracious growth of capital. Marx calls this 'primitive accumulation.'
The colonies also provided a convenient place to dump inconvenient masses of increasingly class-conscious proletarians, thus easing internal tensions at home.
A third factor is that the steady and predictable import of raw materials from the colonies provided a stable basis for production level investment at home. Factories could run because there was no shortage of materials to work with. The colonies also provided a market for the goods made at home, as most colonies did not have the sort of manufacturing infrastructure that the homeland had, and the settlers of course still had a taste for the sorts of things they got at home.
Imperialism provided the perfect climate for the hasty development of Capital.
My point is thus made, Capital required colonization if it wished to grow at such a rate. It would have otherwise been contained to a rather small geographical region which was facing increasing tensions regarding class, nationalist aspirations, the decline of the Austro-Hungarian and Ottoman Empires, etc.
Capitalism merely is a term to describe the free market. A free market is when people are left to engage in economic activity without excessive government interference. It should be noted that America is not %100 capitalist. We have minimum wage laws, interest rate controls, anti-monopoly laws, worker safety laws, etc.. There are tons of instances where the U.S. federal government interferes in economic affairs.
Do you deny the role governments have played in providing a climate suitable for Capital? Governments are the police of the world, supressing rebellions and enforcing laws that ensure the mass of the population will be inclined to show up for work and purchase the goods available.
Bullshit. No matter what the population trends and exoduses Mankind may have been engaged in a free market economy is still the best economic system for providing the highest possible material wealth to all of its participants.
Colonization is more complex than simple population fluctuation and exodus. I am not arguing about whether or not capitalism is more or less materially productive than other systems, this is besides the point.
You are confusing the history of some nations and peoples with an economic system. I repeat: this economic system can and does exist without any type of imperialism or colonialism and also there were many instances of naked aggression by communist countries.
The economic system is inseparable from the climate and means by which it originated. This economic system cannot and never has existed without Imperialism and colonization. It developed in this climate, and it continues to function on the same principle (explain the oil crisis and the American interest in the middle east in other terms, if you can.)
Bull. That's nothing but Leftist-anarcho pseudo intellectual babble that attempts to justify taking something that isn't yours.
Well, I am an anarchist after all. There is, however, nothing 'pseudo' about my intellectual babble.
Edited by NiamhNyx (09/17/07 09:23 PM)
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NiamhNyx
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Quote:
MushmanTheManic said:
The more property a person has, the less right they have to own it?
If person A is starving, and person B has such a feast that they require a vomitorium to make room in thier gut to stuff more in there, than of course person A is justified in stealing enough to fill thier belly. (Wealthy Romans would go to 'vomitoriums' to puke so that they could eat more, this is what I am referencing.)
I'm not talking about stealing plasma screen tv's from the living room of some comfortable middle class family, I'm talking about subsistence and the relativity of morality. Context is key.
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MushmanTheManic
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7421573 - 09/17/07 09:42 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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That was not the context I was discussing.
The context was stealing from large businesses because capitalists exploit the working class and don't need a new Benz.
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NiamhNyx
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A corporation is not a person, it is a machine of exploitation and destruction of the land. A few people at the top of the machine benefit immensely from it, the rest of us don't. So yes, it is morally right to steal from such a thing.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7421626 - 09/17/07 10:01 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I think we should have a raiding party on the ancient Romans. Who is with me?
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7421634 - 09/17/07 10:03 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I think that the term morality should vanish from our vocabulary
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7421643 - 09/17/07 10:06 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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The word 'should' should be removed as well.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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No! Never!
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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NiamhNyx
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7421719 - 09/17/07 10:22 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yes, yes and yes to the three posts directly following my last post. Especially the raiding party on the Romans... that sounds like a damn good time if you ask me... "When in Rome, do as the Vandals did."
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RandalFlagg
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7421730 - 09/17/07 10:25 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
NiamhNyx said: I don't think you understand the function of colonization with regards to the development of capital.
Did the major European powers benefit financially from making colonies out of and getting resources from these third world countries? Yes, they did. Did that wealth lay the groundwork for some of the technological and industrial advancement in these European countries? Yes, it probably did. Does this past negate the efficiency and productivity of the free-market? No. Did the European power's past colonialism adversely harm these nations forever? No. Britian used to own India and here India has become a major economic power. Britian partitioned Iraq and it still has immense oil wealth (if the Iraqi's can ever get their shit together). Past meddling in foreign country's business does not negate the benefits or efficiencies of capitalism. Even though there were abuses in the past it is still is a good system.
You are tying together the free-market with the actions of these nations. I think that is irrelevant because nations of all ideological and economic persuasions have engaged in imperialism and in my opinion the communists were the most horrific offenders.
Quote:
NiamhNyx said: Funny, we just discussed this today in my Modern History class, how convenient! Colonialism provided a resource base necessary to the growing Industrialism of the great powers of Europe. Britain, for example, was incapable of providing herself with the raw materials necessary for her continued development, thus looking elsewhere. Rubber and cotton were both extremely important commodities, thus the theft of India and other tropical colonies where such crops could be grown. The colonies provided a stable base of resources to exploit to continue feeding the ever voracious growth of capital. Marx calls this 'primitive accumulation.'
This is why I despised my university and why I am so glad I dropped out. My time there was full of Leftist ideological indoctrination pushed on me by over-educated twits who called themselves professors and who wouldn't know their asses from a hole in the ground.
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NiamhNyx said: My point is thus made, Capital required colonization if it wished to grow at such a rate.
Bull. The free-market would have done just fine and does just fine without colonization.
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NiamhNyx said: Do you deny the role governments have played in providing a climate suitable for Capital?
Have governments pursued policies which benefited their respective nations and companies? Of course there have been instances of that.
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NiamhNyx said: Governments are the police of the world, supressing rebellions and enforcing laws that ensure the mass of the population will be inclined to show up for work and purchase the goods available.
The government doesn't force people to consume. People willingly do that on their own and that is what drives the free market.
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NiamhNyx said: The economic system is inseparable from the climate and means by which it originated.
I disagree.
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NiamhNyx said: (explain the oil crisis and the American interest in the middle east in other terms, if you can.)
What about it?
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NiamhNyx said: Well, I am an anarchist after all. There is, however, nothing 'pseudo' about my intellectual babble.
Anarchism in all of its forms is a flawed and unrealistic philosophy. I myself used to spout crap from Bakunin and Proudhun. Then one day....I grew up.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: RandalFlagg]
#7421747 - 09/17/07 10:30 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Then one day....I grew up. 
Are you sure?
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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RandalFlagg
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7421762 - 09/17/07 10:32 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
NiamhNyx said: A corporation is not a person, it is a machine of exploitation and destruction of the land. A few people at the top of the machine benefit immensely from it, the rest of us don't.
Oh, dear Lord.
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RandalFlagg
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7421778 - 09/17/07 10:35 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said: Are you sure?
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....



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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7421910 - 09/17/07 11:06 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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So, just destroy everything so that nobody has anything.... Done deal.... Nothing to steal, and nothing to be stolen....
Well, except life itself.... 
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7421939 - 09/17/07 11:14 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Anarchism means absence of rule. With other words, refusing to obey to any for of authority. I see nothing wrong with that.  What does destruction, in the way you presented it, has to do anything with anarchy?
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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PhanTomCat
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7421974 - 09/17/07 11:25 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said: Anarchism means absence of rule. With other words, refusing to obey to any for of authority. I see nothing wrong with that.  What does destruction, in the way you presented it, has to do anything with anarchy?
LoL, have you seen the "small scale" anarchy that happens at a natural disaster like a hurricane....? Public raping also happens along with the destruction....
The anarchy would end up becoming organized if it became long term - which is contradictory(at least in my ignorant understanding of the term "anarchy")....
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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Phred
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: SlvrZeta]
#7421976 - 09/17/07 11:26 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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SlvrZeta writes:
Quote:
1) morality is subjective
Incorrect.
Quote:
2) the CEO of WalMart doesn't need another gold doorknob or Mercedes Benz.
And this makes shoplifting okay how, exactly? Non sequitur. Note also that you don't need that CD you just shoplifted either.
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3) Life is expensive as it is.
And this makes shoplifting moral how, exactly?
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How is it fair that the proletariat earn a shitty wage like $7.50/hr -- year after year -- when inflation is a constant battle? I don't know about you but my salary is still the same after 6 months --- and I can assure you gas prices, food prices, etc have ALL gone up in the past 6 months --- but I haven't had a raise to combat these threats.
So do something to deserve a raise, or get another job that pays better. Or buy less stuff.
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4) people who would "never shoplift" are usually people who download music, DVDs, and video games --- all objects which cost money at a retail store.
Some people who wouldn't shoplift would do those things, yes. Others wouldn't. All of those examples are nonetheless theft.
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5) Capitalism by its nature is all about stealing.
Incorrect.
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For every dollar you have in your pocket, that is one less dollar somebody else has in theirs (I see some debates with this one --- zero-sum economy and all that).
You won't see "some debate", you'll see outright laughter at this absurd assertion -- anyone who actually thinks about this for more than a few minutes will recognize that the accumulation of wealth is not a zero sum game.
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6) The motto of capitalism: "YOU WORK I WIN!"
Nonsense. Even if it were the motto of capitalism (and it isn't) how does this justify shoplifiting?
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7) Is it fair that a gallon of milk should cost $4.99
Yes. In actual fact it should cost more, but the government interferes in the economy to keep its price artificially low.
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8) Shoplifting a few items can ease the pain of actually having to use money, ie, like filling up your gas tank (although stealing gasoline can be a pastime for some).
And rape can ease the pain of actually having to gain consent from a sexual partner. What's your point?
This is one of the creepiest posts I've seen in this forum in quite some time, and there is no shortage of creepy posts here. Thanks for the fascinating insight you've given us into your character. If you'd be kind enough to give us your real name and the city you live in, we'll know who to avoid when we're in town. It wouldn't be Sylvester Zeta from Chicago, would it?
Phred
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7422075 - 09/18/07 12:06 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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LoL, have you seen the "small scale" anarchy that happens at a natural disaster like a hurricane....? Public raping also happens along with the destruction....
This is the result of the fact that people refuse to take responsibility for their actions and because they're unable to reason. They're used to submitting and when they have freedom they don't know how to behave or what to make of it. It's like stating that drugs should be illegal just because there are people who act irresponsible when under the influence.
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The anarchy would end up becoming organized if it became long term - which is contradictory(at least in my ignorant understanding of the term "anarchy")....
An ignorant understanding of the term anarchy doesn't mean that true anarchy can't exist. Growing happens when we learn from mistakes. I'd like to draw a parallel here with over protective parents. The unfortunate children who have such parents will never be ready for living live in a free and responsible manner because all they knew to do was obey and follow rules. As opposed to children which are let to experience life, get their asses kicked and learn from their mistakes. How can we ever expect from human kind to grow up, it if keeps being over protected and ruled up to the point of absurdity and alienation? Somehow, this has got to stop. Taking control over own own lives, thinking with our minds and learning from our mistakes means liberation and it's empowering for the individual. Those who don't make it - natural selection.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: SlvrZeta]
#7422187 - 09/18/07 01:03 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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SlvrZeta said: My spirits are lifted when I shoplift from corporate companies/chain grocery stores. I do not steal from little shops, mom & pop stores, etc. I like WalMart, Target, and the chain supermarkets.
The only reason you prefer these supermarkets is because of the ease with which you are capable of getting away with it.
Here's the thing with ownership - if you feel it justified to take stuff that is owned by someone else, then you logically cannot have a problem with anyone stealing anything "owned" by yourself.
If you do have a problem with people coming into your home at any time and taking anything that you might consider to belong to yourself, and yet you personally go to the property of others and take what they own, then your perspective is conflicted. For some reason you feel that one person is entitled to ownership, and another is not, and follows is your "justification" for it. It doesn't change the fact that society has a mutual understanding of the notion of ownership, which your viewpoint lies at odds with. To others, they accept the notion that they own property, with the subsequent notion that others are entitled to ownership as well. It makes sense, after all. Most people, who feel that they wish to own things in order to benefit their life, respect the fact that others have the same right, to the point that they support a legal system that establishes this right.
This same legal system establishes that individuals may cooperate with each other as an entity that has identity and existance that eclipses that of each individual, and these entities are entitled to the same notion of ownership.
When you steal property from corporations, such as national retail outlets, you are in effect stealing from every single individual that exists as an aspect of that corporation. The benefit of incorporation is more ability to absorb the loss that your theft creates amongst each individual - stealing $300 from myself personally will cause me much more harm than stealing it from my store, which will cause much more harm to the store than the corporation it exists within.
This doesn't change the fact that you are stealing from me. It doesn't change the fact that you are stealing from every single individual who works together as a corporation. This doesn't change the fact that what you are engaging in is any different from anyone coming into your home and stealing your shit.
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1) morality is subjective
Please elaborate. Morality might be subjective, but the mutual decisions as to how a society operates is objective. As most individuals do not wish for others to have the right to enter into their homes and steal that which they own, most individuals accept the notion that others are entitled to ownership as well. Morality might be subjective, but fines are objective, and so is a criminal record.
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2) the CEO of WalMart doesn't need another gold doorknob or Mercedes Benz.
Every individual is entitled to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. We are sovereign entities that have the right to make decisions for ourselves how we will utilize our resources that we have accumulated through legal means, i.e., not imposing upon the rights of others. Your decision to steal from the corporation within which the CEO is one individual amongst millions in order to dictate how he is to use his resources is not just, and it is not civil. The corporation decides how much profit he receives for his contributions, for being responsible for billions of dollars. How he uses his cut personally is his own decision.
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3) Life is expensive as it is. How is it fair that the proletariat earn a shitty wage like $7.50/hr -- year after year -- when inflation is a constant battle? I don't know about you but my salary is still the same after 6 months --- and I can assure you gas prices, food prices, etc have ALL gone up in the past 6 months --- but I haven't had a raise to combat these threats.
How is it fair that, this year, there is less and less buffalo for us to hunt? Why is it fair that, this year, there was a drought and we didn't grow enough vegetables as we feel we should have? Why is it fair that, this year, a disease came and incapacitated more of our hunters, meaning that we didn't bring in enough game for everyone to survive the winter?
Failure to comprehend the nature of reality, or of economic conditions, isn't a justification for theft. In fact, your theft from a corporation has a rippling effect towards creating inflation. These stores either have to increase the costs of the goods and services they provide, absorb the loss by taking it out of the expenses of their operations, making them less capable of effectively performing their business, thus threatening the livelihood of those who rely on those expenses to be employed, or pass that loss onto those who have invested in their corporation, making them more risky for future investment.
Thanks for contributing to inflation. 
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4) people who would "never shoplift" are usually people who download music, DVDs, and video games --- all objects which cost money at a retail store.
Murder is acceptable behavior, provided that others engage in it as well, eh?
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5) Capitalism by its nature is all about stealing. For every dollar you have in your pocket, that is one less dollar somebody else has in theirs (I see some debates with this one --- zero-sum economy and all that).
It is about production, not theft. Exerting energy in exchange for a representation of that energy with which one can trade for goods and services. Competition does not justify theft.
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6) The motto of capitalism: "YOU WORK I WIN!"
Rather, "We all work; We all win."
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7) Is it fair that a gallon of milk should cost $4.99 (that is what it is in this state everywhere)?
The world doesn't revolve around you. There are actually reasons why the cost of milk has risen.
Startling realization that!
Milk production falls, demand continues to increase, cost increases. Information and understanding can be your friend, although it probably makes it less possible to rationalize wrongdoing.
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8) Shoplifting a few items can ease the pain of actually having to use money, ie, like filling up your gas tank (although stealing gasoline can be a pastime for some).
I look forward to the day when you are locked up. It'll ease my pain knowing that I will profit more as the loss you provide the corporation I currently exist within no longer has to be absorbed. The opportunity for meditation in jail will be very spiritual.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7422209 - 09/18/07 01:19 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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MushroomTrip said: This is the result of the fact that people refuse to take responsibility for their actions and because they're unable to reason. They're used to submitting and when they have freedom they don't know how to behave or what to make of it. It's like stating that drugs should be illegal just because there are people who act irresponsible when under the influence.
Precisely; I think he would have been better to define what he was referring to as chaos. From what I understand, anarchy is the thought that individuals are sovereign and the formation of any kind of institution to regulate societal order is a limitation of that inherent sovereignity. I do not consider myself an anarchist myself though, and haven't really studied it, so perhaps that is wrong. I definitely wouldn't consider what occurs when a natural disaster occurs and when the normal societal framework that conducts human affairs (which exists simply as an abstraction in the minds of each individual, of course) is no longer adhered to as anarchy, however.
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Growing happens when we learn from mistakes. I'd like to draw a parallel here with over protective parents. The unfortunate children who have such parents will never be ready for living live in a free and responsible manner because all they knew to do was obey and follow rules. As opposed to children which are let to experience life, get their asses kicked and learn from their mistakes. How can we ever expect from human kind to grow up, it if keeps being over protected and ruled up to the point of absurdity and alienation? Somehow, this has got to stop. Taking control over own own lives, thinking with our minds and learning from our mistakes means liberation and it's empowering for the individual. Those who don't make it - natural selection.
As I was saying, the order that brings us all to act as a society exists as an abstraction, and, as you say, the more we assume responsibility for ourselves, the more we act and exist as sovereign human beings, the more empowered we will be. Quite naturally, the less power will be centralized away from the individual and into an externalized, abstract system that enables those who are willing to assume responsibility for the lives of others to take advantage of that opportunity.
To relate to the original topic and support my own position on the matter, this order exists as a more or less mutual understanding, and those who are not civil beings, engaging in behavior that infringes upon the rights and liberties of others, only serve to bring others to choose to perpetuate an abstract limitation of their own power, even though it has to be reinforced that these individuals, themselves, are responsible for doing so, and not the uncivil. Still, the more everyone takes responsibility for themselves, and consciously chooses to act in civil, symbiotic ways, the more preferential this experience on this planet will be, as we will all be free, from ourselves.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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BlueCoyote
Beyond



Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7422269 - 09/18/07 02:18 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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There is indeed a big imbalance of wealth for the people on earth, which could justify some 'moderate' pricing politics so one hasn't to label it 'stealing' anymore 
But economics sadly works the other way around, 'till now, because profit can only be done if a good portion of humans stay poor and therefor in need-mode.
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Kinematics
coyote vision


Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 662
Loc: Colorado
Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: fireworks_god]
#7422274 - 09/18/07 02:22 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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What it comes down to is, you're taking something that doesn't belong to you, and regardless of who is more rich or who can afford to lose it doesn't matter. It's not yours and it is disrespectful of another's property and person.
Why is this even a discussion?
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7422422 - 09/18/07 04:31 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Huehue, I disagree. What if you hold a value that is not shared by a close friend or family member, and they are telling you off for doing something they think is wrong? Would you roll over and let them berate you, or would you attempt to explain how and why your values differ from thiers?
I may try to explain my values (rather lack of values) to someone, but not in defense of my actions. When you take responsibility for your actions, and act in full awareness, then your actions come directly from your integrity. When you act out of integrity your actions stand alone. There is no need for explanation or defense. Others can criticise, but the need to defend only arises when one feels that they did not act out of their integrity. This insecurity is avoided if one owns their actions. As for values....I try to not use generalizations and just rely on a few rules of thumb that are flexible. I try to take everything on a case by case basis.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7422690 - 09/18/07 08:17 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
NiamhNyx said:
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Veritas said: Nope. If I feel it is OK, then I don't think about it afterward. Except to enjoy, of course. If I think that my decision was not-so-great, then I'll consider why I disapprove. Any attempts on my part to justify behavior are cause for suspicion and self-examination.
Have you never done anything that you felt was completely acceptable according to your own moral standards, yet most people find completely unacceptable? In such a situation would you not feel to need to defend yourself against those who criticize you for your immorality?
Not unless they have the power to arrest me. I found myself in exactly that position with my mother during my wild youth, and I refused to defend or explain myself to her. Since then, it has been clear to me that others will not understand nor condone my amorality, so I do not attempt to educate nor convince them.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: SlvrZeta]
#7422936 - 09/18/07 10:09 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
SlvrZeta said: My spirits are lifted when I shoplift from corporate companies/chain grocery stores. I do not steal from little shops, mom & pop stores, etc. I like WalMart, Target, and the chain supermarkets. Here is my justification:
1) morality is subjective
2) the CEO of WalMart doesn't need another gold doorknob or Mercedes Benz.
3) Life is expensive as it is. How is it fair that the proletariat earn a shitty wage like $7.50/hr -- year after year -- when inflation is a constant battle? I don't know about you but my salary is still the same after 6 months --- and I can assure you gas prices, food prices, etc have ALL gone up in the past 6 months --- but I haven't had a raise to combat these threats.
4) people who would "never shoplift" are usually people who download music, DVDs, and video games --- all objects which cost money at a retail store.
5) Capitalism by its nature is all about stealing. For every dollar you have in your pocket, that is one less dollar somebody else has in theirs (I see some debates with this one --- zero-sum economy and all that).
6) The motto of capitalism: "YOU WORK I WIN!"
7) Is it fair that a gallon of milk should cost $4.99 (that is what it is in this state everywhere)?
8) Shoplifting a few items can ease the pain of actually having to use money, ie, like filling up your gas tank (although stealing gasoline can be a pastime for some).
I'm going to rate you five shrooms for this wonderful post.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: Kinematics]
#7422951 - 09/18/07 10:14 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Why is this even a discussion?
Because just because you believe something to be true don't make it so.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'


Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 3,198
Last seen: 14 years, 8 months
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: Veritas]
#7423017 - 09/18/07 10:31 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
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NiamhNyx said:
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Veritas said: Nope. If I feel it is OK, then I don't think about it afterward. Except to enjoy, of course. If I think that my decision was not-so-great, then I'll consider why I disapprove. Any attempts on my part to justify behavior are cause for suspicion and self-examination.
Have you never done anything that you felt was completely acceptable according to your own moral standards, yet most people find completely unacceptable? In such a situation would you not feel to need to defend yourself against those who criticize you for your immorality?
Not unless they have the power to arrest me. I found myself in exactly that position with my mother during my wild youth, and I refused to defend or explain myself to her. Since then, it has been clear to me that others will not understand nor condone my amorality, so I do not attempt to educate nor convince them.
Fair enough.
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'


Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 3,198
Last seen: 14 years, 8 months
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7423042 - 09/18/07 10:37 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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MushroomTrip said:
This is the result of the fact that people refuse to take responsibility for their actions and because they're unable to reason. They're used to submitting and when they have freedom they don't know how to behave or what to make of it. It's like stating that drugs should be illegal just because there are people who act irresponsible when under the influence.
An ignorant understanding of the term anarchy doesn't mean that true anarchy can't exist.
Hey MT, thanks for taking that one on! And I thought I was gonna be stuck with it... again. The problem with explicitly and proudly proclaiming one's controversial ideas is having to explain them in the most basic terms to every jerk who can't use wikipedia and prefers, instead, to say things like "anarchy is what's happening in Iraq right now, you like that?" Jesus Christ. It's nice to have friends!
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dorkus
don't look back
Registered: 04/12/04
Posts: 1,511
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Quote:
MushmanTheManic said:
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Even in countries such as Sweden and Norway, a free-market economy still exists to some extent.
What the fuck are you talking about? Anarchy has been running smoothly here since the Kafkanians killed Einar Gerhardsen shortly after WWII. Don't you remember, they never even offered him the Trial? You could be stuck in the wrong timeline. There is a password to bypass and receive the "right" output, plot "SatanicMajestiesRequest666" into all the co-ordination values, x y & z. Then spin through Pi.
You will now have increased entropy dramatically. If everything goes according to lack of plan, a higher "order" will ensue.
Forgot to tell you... A tail will have appeared growing five centimeters above your rectum. They told me they're working on that one. Wear it with pride.
On a serious note; some great defense for theft here. I think i'll start stealing again.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: dorkus]
#7423222 - 09/18/07 11:19 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I have heard that many of the American Indians were great thiefs. They stole from anyone not in their tribe without stigma.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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shakercee
Atheistic Mystic



Registered: 04/08/07
Posts: 606
Loc: Here and there
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: Icelander]
#7423241 - 09/18/07 11:23 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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..yes, and offering a prayer to the Great Spirit, would absolve them of the crime, i guess.
-------------------- Pray, v.: To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy - Ambrose Bierce Medical science has confirmed what the male world has known intuitively for millenia: that scratching your ass is a great aid to complex thinking. Its God's responsibility to forgive the terrorist organizations such as Jaish, Lashkar etc. Its our responsibility to arrange the meeting between them and god." - Indian Armed Forces "Hey Monkey!! Get Funky" - Tarzan and Jane
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dorkus
don't look back
Registered: 04/12/04
Posts: 1,511
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: shakercee]
#7423247 - 09/18/07 11:24 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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What crime?
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....



Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,908
Loc: My Youniverse....
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7423280 - 09/18/07 11:31 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
NiamhNyx said:
Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
This is the result of the fact that people refuse to take responsibility for their actions and because they're unable to reason. They're used to submitting and when they have freedom they don't know how to behave or what to make of it. It's like stating that drugs should be illegal just because there are people who act irresponsible when under the influence.
An ignorant understanding of the term anarchy doesn't mean that true anarchy can't exist.
Hey MT, thanks for taking that one on! And I thought I was gonna be stuck with it... again. The problem with explicitly and proudly proclaiming one's controversial ideas is having to explain them in the most basic terms to every jerk who can't use wikipedia and prefers, instead, to say things like "anarchy is what's happening in Iraq right now, you like that?" Jesus Christ. It's nice to have friends!
OK, us jerks have a few question, but don't feel stuck with answering because of my ignorance on the subject, but still wanting to discuss and learn..... 
Does anarchy exist and "run" anywhere....? If so, where.... If not, why not.....?
Quote:
Anarchy (from Greek: ἀναρχία anarchía, "without ruler") may refer to any of the following: . "Absence of government; a state of lawlessness due to beliefs that people are inherently good and can organize themselves without government or bureaucracies; another type of political order."[1] "A theoretical social state in which there is no governing person or body of persons, but each individual has absolute liberty (without the implication of disorder)."[2] "Absence or non-recognition of authority in any given sphere."[3] or, simply, (from Greek: an-, "without" and Greek: -archy, "leadership") Without leadership. Hence, the common use of anarchism as a system of organisation without leaders.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchy
I did look on Wikipedia.... "May refer to any of the following".... "Lawlessness due to beliefs that people are inherently good".... This is the planet Earth..... MT has givien the underlying reasons as to why it doesn't (and/or won't) work.... So, with those reasons being instilled upon the people of the world, - how would this new system work without whiping everyone's brain clean and starting over with fingers crossed....?
Is taking/stealing from another person "inherently good" within anarchy....?
People can reason.... The people that are NOT "inherently good" can reason that there is no consequences for the actions that they bestow upon another.... Whether they take responsibility or not, who is to stop those people from running amok when there is no leadership or laws or enforcers....?
Yes to anarchy - in a perfect world, with perfect people, it would be just perfect.......................... 
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: shakercee]
#7423329 - 09/18/07 11:42 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
shakercee said: ..yes, and offering a prayer to the Great Spirit, would absolve them of the crime, i guess.
You missed the whole point. To them it was not a crime or something wrong.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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shakercee
Atheistic Mystic



Registered: 04/08/07
Posts: 606
Loc: Here and there
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: Icelander]
#7423350 - 09/18/07 11:46 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Hmm..yeah..point taken.
-------------------- Pray, v.: To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy - Ambrose Bierce Medical science has confirmed what the male world has known intuitively for millenia: that scratching your ass is a great aid to complex thinking. Its God's responsibility to forgive the terrorist organizations such as Jaish, Lashkar etc. Its our responsibility to arrange the meeting between them and god." - Indian Armed Forces "Hey Monkey!! Get Funky" - Tarzan and Jane
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: shakercee]
#7423367 - 09/18/07 11:49 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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This is true of everything we believe. If you think it's wrong it's wrong. If you don't then it isn't. All rules about morality and right and wrong are cultural and artificial.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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SlvrZeta
~Asi



Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 200
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: Icelander]
#7423430 - 09/18/07 12:08 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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To the guy who said morality is not subjective, please explain.
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dorkus
don't look back
Registered: 04/12/04
Posts: 1,511
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7423469 - 09/18/07 12:19 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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So describing anarchy as a natural disaster compared to a hurricane where public raping happens along with the destruction, is your way of discussing to learn?
Piffle, piffle, piffle.
Or you could go for option number two which we will refer to as Ignoramus Saueflokkius.
What is a perfect world with perfect people? Maybe you have to let go of some dearly held ideals as to what a society should achieve and how it should function to function "perfectly" to understand that anarchy actually could function? Does "perfect" mean without conflict and resistance? Does it mean that we cut human losses from 100 percent (today's count from my own estimates) down to ... what? Will we start surviving? I find it funny when people talk about how economy needs to be continually expanding - then complain about how we are killing the earth. It's time for a strike.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: dorkus]
#7423491 - 09/18/07 12:24 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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bugi_bi
bogey_shroom


Registered: 05/09/05
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: dorkus]
#7423509 - 09/18/07 12:28 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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okey, i agree with writer.. i am doing the same thing.. one man sad, "love is beyong good and evil, and i love what i do".. and really i do, i can steal without regreting it... i am used that people are stealing from me... if you describe yourself as good person you must be aware that we all are theifs... there almost no difference between sharing and stealing.. only imaginary difference... still be sure not to get cought...
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7423871 - 09/18/07 01:51 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Does anarchy exist and "run" anywhere....? If so, where....
Yes it does run and yes it does work. It's highly efficient as a personal philosophy of life, for those who are willing, like I stated before, to live a conscious and responsible life, to set their own priorities and accept what works for them and what doesn't. By making their best guess on reality, using reason and understanding. There are people that are really good at being autodidacts and which don't need others to tell them what to do in order to live a fulfilling and happy life. I think that one of the best motto's for anarchy that I could think about is "think for yourself, question authority". Why should those people, who are a living prove for the fact that one can live outside the system, without becoming a plague for for the structure of the world, should just submit to authority, just because others are incapable of living a responsible life. Anarchy is about personal option, which is a basic human right.
Quote:
If not, why not.....?
It doesn't work as an infrastructure, because of many reasons. One of the reasons for which anarchy could never work as a social conduct is because it would become a rule and it wouldn't be anarchy anymore. Another reason, which I already stated, is because not everybody's willing to take control over their lives and accept responsibility. One more reason why anarchy wouldn't work as a universal truth is just because nothing really works as a universal truth. And this brings me back to personal option.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: dorkus]
#7424051 - 09/18/07 02:37 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
dorkus said:
Quote:
MushmanTheManic said:
Quote:
Even in countries such as Sweden and Norway, a free-market economy still exists to some extent.
What the fuck are you talking about? Anarchy has been running smoothly here since the Kafkanians killed Einar Gerhardsen shortly after WWII. Don't you remember, they never even offered him the Trial? You could be stuck in the wrong timeline. There is a password to bypass and receive the "right" output, plot "SatanicMajestiesRequest666" into all the co-ordination values, x y & z. Then spin through Pi.
You will now have increased entropy dramatically. If everything goes according to lack of plan, a higher "order" will ensue.
Forgot to tell you... A tail will have appeared growing five centimeters above your rectum. They told me they're working on that one. Wear it with pride.
On a serious note; some great defense for theft here. I think i'll start stealing again.
Want to know the difference between Discordians and Subgenii? Subgenii get laid.
You're facts are wrong, too. The Kafkanians only killed Joseph K and that was before WWII. As far as the rest of your Carrie Fisheresque ramble, harrumph.
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dorkus
don't look back
Registered: 04/12/04
Posts: 1,511
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You get laid? Wow, that is very impressive.
Facts? Hahaha. Do you even know what Einar Gerhardsen have done for Norway?
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....



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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7424780 - 09/18/07 05:30 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said: Yes it does run and yes it does work. It's highly efficient as a personal philosophy of life, for those who are willing, like I stated before, to live a conscious and responsible life, to set their own priorities and accept what works for them and what doesn't. By making their best guess on reality, using reason and understanding. There are people that are really good at being autodidacts and which don't need others to tell them what to do in order to live a fulfilling and happy life. I think that one of the best motto's for anarchy that I could think about is "think for yourself, question authority". Why should those people, who are a living prove for the fact that one can live outside the system, without becoming a plague for the structure of the world, should just submit to authority, just because others are incapable of living a responsible life. Anarchy is about personal option, which is a basic human right.
For the most part, that IS the way I live.... But, when I hear "Anarchy", I never think of just one person.... "It was total anarchy" is a saying that comes to mind - as a way to describe unruly chaos - or social breakdown.... If I have misinterpreted this, it is my mistake....
I still don't see how anarchy advocates the personal choice to steal from another - in the personal philosophy regard of "self responsibility".... The person that is responsibly working hard to make a product or provide a service, what is the point if in a system of anarchy, it is OK for someone to decide that you have "more than them" to justify stealing your work....?
How is that any different than a non-anarchist stealing just for the joy of stealing....? Whether it is a "better reason" or not, your shit is still stolen by a thief.... 
I was being responsible for myself today, and I stole some stuff I needed.... It just doesn't sound right to me.... 
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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adrug

Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 15,800
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7424939 - 09/18/07 06:16 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Its called "being a nice person". And "doing unto others as you would have them do unto you". I may not be a believer in religion so much these days, but even I can see the sense and value in that advice.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7424945 - 09/18/07 06:20 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
How is that any different than a non-anarchist stealing just for the joy of stealing....? Whether it is a "better reason" or not, your shit is still stolen by a thief.... 
What does better reason have to do with all that? And why the need for justification? If I would decide to steal, I would assume responsibility for my actions and would not feel guilty or uncomfortable about it. I would do it because I decided to do so, no matter the reason. If I would fail at one or more of these criteria, I would decide not to steal.
Quote:
I was being responsible for myself today, and I stole some stuff I needed.... It just doesn't sound right to me.... 
And that is exactly what I was talking about. If it doesn't sound right to me, I don't do it.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....



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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: adrug]
#7424949 - 09/18/07 06:21 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Mee two.... 
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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kotik
fuckingsuperhero


Registered: 06/29/04
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: RandalFlagg]
#7425279 - 09/18/07 07:31 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
RandalFlagg said: Stealing is stealing. Whether you take from a rich man or a poor man it's still theft.
i have no problem with that, whatsoever
Quote:
The minimum wage is $5.75 I believe and it is being raised nationwide to $7 something in the next few years. And yes, I have been poor before. I have been to the point where I weighed 115 pounds, my apartment's heat was set at 50 in the middle of the winter, and I had nothing. I still refuse to blame some "corporation" for my meager surroundings nor will I mooch off of the government or other people. I have too much pride and I will support myself without thieving from society.
your pride doesnt mean anything, to anyone but you. as long as you are comfortable with that, I am comfortable with stealing twice as much, just to make up for your own inaction.
-------------------- No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.
Edited by kotik (09/18/07 07:34 PM)
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thedudenj
Man of the Woods

Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 14,684
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: SlvrZeta]
#7430518 - 09/19/07 11:00 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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i lived off of shoplifting,dine and running,gas and run for 3 months it may not be morally wrong but the police will chase you and security if they get a chance be aware of all cameras and undercover people. PS if you form a band of thieves and a guild there will be copy cats make sure they are decoys and get caught while your working. those idoits get in the new paper and you get away scot free, o we also stole alot of whiskey and beer you gota feed the crew and they loved their coke
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  "You all are just puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain..."" you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours
Edited by thedudenj (09/19/07 11:02 PM)
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blewmeanie




Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 28,984
Loc:
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: thedudenj]
#7431269 - 09/20/07 06:51 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Whatever happened to the golden rule? It's pretty sensible if you ask me. That being said I steal from kangaroo gas stations every chance I get. (Dont buy gas from them, there pumps arent accurate)
Edited by blewmeanie (09/20/07 06:53 AM)
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thedudenj
Man of the Woods

Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 14,684
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: SlvrZeta]
#7431385 - 09/20/07 08:26 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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dude i know an exon dealer that makes his pumps inaccurate,when my friend worked for him he told him about it. Lots of stores rip you the fuck off its just they have gov. protection. im gona help create the new american gov. of the old country Union. the NAGOCU
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  "You all are just puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain..."" you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7431711 - 09/20/07 10:49 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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What does better reason have to do with all that? And why the need for justification? If I would decide to steal, I would assume responsibility for my actions and would not feel guilty or uncomfortable about it. I would do it because I decided to do so, no matter the reason. If I would fail at one or more of these criteria, I would decide not to steal.
I think basically this is a good action plan. It may take some practice to fully live it.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'


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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: Icelander]
#7431737 - 09/20/07 10:56 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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That's pretty much my approach too... for some reason I always feel like I have to convince people that there really are all kinds of "reasons" for the things I think and do, especially when they believe the opposite. jesus, why do I do this?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7431816 - 09/20/07 11:22 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
NiamhNyx said: That's pretty much my approach too... for some reason I always feel like I have to convince people that there really are all kinds of "reasons" for the things I think and do, especially when they believe the opposite. jesus, why do I do this?
I think you (and I) do this because we truly do not have confidence in our own beliefs. Once full responsibility is accepted for the self then all that shit drops away.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7431837 - 09/20/07 11:28 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I think it is more than a lack of confidence in the validity of our beliefs. It seems to me that diverging from our "tribe," no matter how much we may intellectually believe it is correct, triggers our ancient survival fears. We really have not evolved very much since the days when acceptance and belonging made the difference between living and dying. In our oldest brain, ostracism = death.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: Veritas]
#7431843 - 09/20/07 11:29 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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That too.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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adrug

Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 15,800
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: Icelander]
#7432203 - 09/20/07 12:51 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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This thread makes me feel so old-fashioned...
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figgusfiddus
Arrogant Worm


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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: SlvrZeta]
#7432244 - 09/20/07 01:05 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
1) morality is subjective
Then why are you defending it?
-------------------- FGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDS FGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDS FGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDS
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: figgusfiddus]
#7432250 - 09/20/07 01:06 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Because of the emotional content
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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figgusfiddus
Arrogant Worm


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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7432270 - 09/20/07 01:13 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Well, I find people sometimes defend the most adamantly the things they don't quite believe yet. I wouldn't say that makes it incorrect, and either way it's just a guess on my part.
How much of theft morality is social? Does that make it illegitimate? Is this communitarian instinct, or conditioning? And is one more real than the other?
I think you have to prove that theft is wrong before you can prove it's right. I don't think anyone has conclusively done either, since a value judgment is necessary to say anything is wrong or right, really; is human community a good thing, or a bad thing? If you agree it's a good thing, then I guess you have a starting ground. After all, taboos on theft, murder, and so on surely originated as a means of protecting societies from the individuals that comprise them. (Unless you subscribe to the notion that some kind of irritable space-hippy was involved.)
-------------------- FGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDS FGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDS FGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDS
Edited by figgusfiddus (09/20/07 01:15 PM)
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thedudenj
Man of the Woods

Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 14,684
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: SlvrZeta]
#7432276 - 09/20/07 01:14 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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the only things that shouldnt be stolen are things with emotional attachment. those should be shared
--------------------
  "You all are just puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain..."" you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours
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figgusfiddus
Arrogant Worm


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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: thedudenj]
#7432282 - 09/20/07 01:15 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Like our womens?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: figgusfiddus]
#7432306 - 09/20/07 01:21 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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It gets more complicated then just saying is community a good thing IMO. I live in a community and a country that is called a tribe. But is it my tribe? To my liking? With my values. We don't live in a world where you can necessarily just bail to somewhere else if you don't like what's going on around you.
So for me the question is does this community value my values and respect me the way I want to be. The answer is no. So do I owe allegiance to their values?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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BlueCoyote
Beyond



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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: figgusfiddus]
#7432325 - 09/20/07 01:24 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Ah, isn't that obvious ?
Theft, done from 'poor' ones in 'existential' needs done towards 'rich' ones in 'capitalistic' greed is (or can be seen) morally 'right' and justiciable.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: figgusfiddus]
#7432340 - 09/20/07 01:27 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I think that mostly, thought establishing what's moral, all we do is determining what offends us and hurts us. And this is mainly because we borrow those ideas from our parents, teachers, and the like. It's not even like we filter them through reason anymore. If the majority says we should get offended by something, then we do, because we figure that they should "know better". I see the reasons behind protecting societies and I believe it does make some sense, but the thing is that, with many occasions, through ethics, we're not even doing that anymore. We rather protect the idea of what a society should be like, instead of accepting what's really happening and looking for the most efficient solutions that would fit for the actual circumstances.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7432404 - 09/20/07 01:41 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Right.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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figgusfiddus
Arrogant Worm


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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: Icelander]
#7432405 - 09/20/07 01:41 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: It gets more complicated then just saying is community a good thing IMO. I live in a community and a country that is called a tribe. But is it my tribe? To my liking? With my values. We don't live in a world where you can necessarily just bail to somewhere else if you don't like what's going on around you.
So for me the question is does this community value my values and respect me the way I want to be. The answer is no. So do I owe allegiance to their values?
That's up to you to decide. And that would be a major factor in determining whether theft is acceptable to your moral standards.
But if so, what about murder? I mean, you can draw the rejection of communitarian ideals out to its extreme and come up with things most of us would still find unpalatable. Perhaps we've just been very well conditioned.
But I think it comes down to more than just which society you live in, and whether you agree with the majority of its people on certain issues. I'm not talking about tribe, or identity, or nationality, or ethnicity. I'm talking about the actual interaction of human beings, the most basic, paleolithic kind of community you can imagine, but applicable to modern times as much as ancient.
In other words, are you willing, through theft, to forsake the protections that society gives you against theft? Don't fool yourself, they're plenty, and they don't just come in the form of the police (who are only effective mostly as a deterrent, anyway). Societies have conditioned their members against theft, murder, and certain other vices deemed unsuitable to the stability of human interaction. They're very effective systems, because they also condition their members to recognize those who break the codes as exempt from certain protections.
If you're willing to forsake those protections, you must admit that the people around you are free to do whatever they wish to you--well, not literally perhaps. Generally speaking, this will involve imprisonment, but only because we live in a society that has built-in restraints other than simple morality.
Morality is a tool for communal stabilization. Aspects of it seem to be ingrained into us, but most of the things we actually have names for are taught. There's nothing magical or ethereal about it, it's just a matter of deciding whether you wish to subscribe to given parts of the common morality or not. Social contract theory at its simplest.
It's not just political science, though. It's just as true with individual relationships. More true, maybe. A nation-state is not exactly an ideal representative of human society. It's a modern, artificial construct, and doesn't really have so much to do with the our society as the people we see every day. Law wasn't always codified, and before it was, it was pretty fluid. There are ways in which your relationship with a significant other, or with family members, resemble the same pattern. Human relationships are all founded on some kind of implicit mutual agreement, and that's all law and morality comes down to.
-------------------- FGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDS FGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDS FGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDS
Edited by figgusfiddus (09/20/07 01:53 PM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: figgusfiddus]
#7432425 - 09/20/07 01:45 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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You bring up some really good points here.
At this point I'm ready for the collapse of civilization (think that it's a good idea if we go all the way) and am willing to bear responsibility for anything I might contribute by being naughty.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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thedudenj
Man of the Woods

Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 14,684
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: SlvrZeta]
#7432456 - 09/20/07 01:51 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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its all culture,sub culture and counter culture
--------------------
  "You all are just puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain..."" you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours
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figgusfiddus
Arrogant Worm


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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: thedudenj]
#7432469 - 09/20/07 01:55 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Don't forget liquid culture.
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BlueCoyote
Beyond



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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: BlueCoyote]
#7432590 - 09/20/07 02:21 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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It doesn't seem obvous. Damned.:(
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thedudenj
Man of the Woods

Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 14,684
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: BlueCoyote]
#7433664 - 09/20/07 06:15 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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oh yeah liquid culture
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  "You all are just puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain..."" you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....



Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,908
Loc: My Youniverse....
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: thedudenj]
#7433737 - 09/20/07 06:41 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Damn doood, well spoken.... 
FiggusFiddus for president....! 
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'


Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 3,198
Last seen: 14 years, 8 months
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: Veritas]
#7434065 - 09/20/07 08:15 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said: I think it is more than a lack of confidence in the validity of our beliefs. It seems to me that diverging from our "tribe," no matter how much we may intellectually believe it is correct, triggers our ancient survival fears. We really have not evolved very much since the days when acceptance and belonging made the difference between living and dying. In our oldest brain, ostracism = death.
I think you're onto something here... to avoid ostracism one tries to convince others that thier difference is valid and to encourage others to join them in thier beliefs... to draw a larger circle of shared worldview around oneself. This is a pretty natural drive. Either one 'joins the herd' or attempts to draw others out of the herd to share in thier difference together. We are social animals after all, it's hard to blame anyone for this instinct.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7435906 - 09/21/07 10:02 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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This is what the power struggles for leadership of the tribe are all about. Lead or follow. To choose something else...?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea


Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: SlvrZeta]
#7436102 - 09/21/07 11:04 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Of course it can, morals are made by each individual and theres moral expectation. The general mass consensus morals.
The whole of life itself as we know it, was built on murder, rape and theft - life does not have morals, humans have morals.
If the pyramid of society broke down tomorrow; have no doubt that it would be a kill or be killed, steal or have stolen world.
I just do to others what I don't mind being done to myself and try not to cause other people hurt. I don't do this because of any other reason than its the way I like to be.
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Viveka
refutation bias


Registered: 10/21/02
Posts: 4,061
Last seen: 7 years, 3 months
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: SlvrZeta]
#7440986 - 09/22/07 04:24 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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2) the CEO of WalMart doesn't need another gold doorknob or Mercedes Benz.
Who needs anything? Why do you need the shit you steal? Why do you need to live?
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3) Life is expensive as it is. How is it fair that the proletariat earn a shitty wage like $7.50/hr -- year after year -- when inflation is a constant battle? I don't know about you but my salary is still the same after 6 months --- and I can assure you gas prices, food prices, etc have ALL gone up in the past 6 months --- but I haven't had a raise to combat these threats.
Who are these "proletariats" and why are they constantly vascilating between the pride of their self-identification and the angst of their victimhood? They sound pretty fucking stupid to me. If you're earning $7.50 year after year, here's a clue: learn a skill. Or are proletariats people incapable of diversifying their abilities?
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4) people who would "never shoplift" are usually people who download music, DVDs, and video games --- all objects which cost money at a retail store.
A thief is a thief is a thief. What's your point?
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5) Capitalism by its nature is all about stealing. For every dollar you have in your pocket, that is one less dollar somebody else has in theirs
This is the biggest heap of bullshit in this thread.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: Viveka]
#7441044 - 09/22/07 04:38 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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This is the biggest heap of bullshit in this thread.
You're right. Capitalism is about power and control.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: Viveka]
#7441090 - 09/22/07 04:54 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Who are these "proletariats" and why are they constantly vascilating between the pride of their self-identification and the angst of their victimhood? They sound pretty fucking stupid to me. If you're earning $7.50 year after year, here's a clue: learn a skill. Or are proletariats people incapable of diversifying their abilities?
Excellent points. If one is earning minimum wage, or even the same sub-standard wage year-after-year, the problem is not with the system, it is with your self-marketing. Improve your "product," and demand a higher price.
I'm working on this myself, though it has been a great many years since I earned the minimum wage.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: Veritas]
#7441095 - 09/22/07 04:55 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Or get good at stealing and consider that your skill.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: Icelander]
#7441099 - 09/22/07 04:57 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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It's not a good skill if I don't feel OK with it at the end of the day.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: Veritas]
#7441104 - 09/22/07 04:58 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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True, but for the rest of us low lifes...
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Viveka
refutation bias


Registered: 10/21/02
Posts: 4,061
Last seen: 7 years, 3 months
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: Icelander]
#7444889 - 09/23/07 05:27 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
This is the biggest heap of bullshit in this thread.
You're right. Capitalism is about power and control.
That's one way to look at it. More simply, it's about supply and demand, though some manipulate the system as fully as possible in order to consolidate as much leverage for themselves as possible.
Collectivism is more about power and control: the redistribution of wealth generated by others in order to ply the will and values of a governing state to a coerced populous. There are always those whose values align with those of the state and many whose values don't. There's a tyranny lurking, if not actively working, in any system. But the canard about every dollar earned equaling a dollar robbed from someone shouldn't go unchecked. It's such a fundamental falsehood.
There is a scheme where wealth is stolen instead of being generated. It's not Capitalism -- it's called Government.
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Compass
Ancient Light

Registered: 10/17/06
Posts: 1,149
Loc: The Border of Reality
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: SlvrZeta]
#8457381 - 05/28/08 09:27 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Nothing compares to the feeling of elation, of burdens being lifted and constraints escaped, that I feel when I walk out of a store with their products in my pockets. In a world where everything already belongs to someone else, where I am expected to sell away my life at work in order to get the money to pay for the minimum I need to survive, where I am surrounded by forces beyond my control or comprehension that obviously are not concerned about my needs or welfare, it is a way to carve out a little piece of the world for myself—to act back upon a world that acts so much upon me.
It is an entirely different sensation than the one I feel when I buy something. When I pay for something, I'm making a trade; I'm offering the money that I bought with my labor, my time, and my creativity for a product or service that the corporation wouldn't share with me under any other circumstances. In a sense, we have a relationship based on violence: we negotiate an exchange not according to our respect or concern for each other, but according to the forces that we can bring to bear on each other. Supermarkets know they can charge me a dollar for bread because I will starve if I do not buy it from them; they know they can't charge me four dollars, because I will go somewhere else. So our interaction revolves around unspoken threats, rather than love, and I am forced to give up something of my own to get anything from them.[1][1] In a love relationship, conversley, people usually think of themselves as benefitting from giving to others, and vice versa.
Everything changes when I shoplift. I'm no longer negotiating with faceless, inhuman entities that have no concern for my welfare; instead, I'm taking what I need without giving anything up. I no longer feel like I am being forced into an exchange, and I no longer feel as if I have no control over the way the world around me dictates my life. I no longer have to worry about whether the pleasure I receive from the book I purchased was equal to the two hours of labor it cost me to be able to afford it. In these and a thousand other ways, shoplifting makes me feel liberated and empowered. Let's examine what shoplifting has to offer as an alternative way of life.
The shoplifter wins her prize by taking risks, not by exchanging a piece of her life for it. Life for her is not something that must be sold away for seven or eight dollars an hour in return for survival; it is something that is hers because she takes it for herself, because she lays claim to it. In stark contrast to the law-abiding consumer, the means by which she acquires goods is as exciting as the goods themselves; and this means is also, in many ways, more praiseworthy.
Shoplifting is a refusal of the exchange economy. It is a denial that people deserve to eat, live, and die based on how effectively they are able to exchange their labor and capital with others. It is a denial that a monetary value can be ascribed to everything, that having a piece of delicious chocolate in your mouth is worth exactly fifty cents or that an hour of one person's life can really be worth ten dollars more than that of another person. It is a refusal to accept the capitalist system, in which workers have to buy back the products of their own labor at a profit to the owners of capital, who thus get them coming and going.
Shoplifting says NO to all the objectionable features that have come to characterize the modern corporation. It is an expression of discontent with the low wages and lack of benefits that so many exploiting corporations force their employees to suffer in the name of company profits. It is a refusal to pay for low quality products that have been designed to break or wear out soon in order to force consumers to buy more. It is a refusal to fund the environmental damage that so many corporations perpetrate heartlessly in the course of manufacturing their products and building new stores, a refusal to support the corporations that run private, local businesses into bankruptcy, a refusal to accept the murder of animals in the meat and dairy industries and the exploitation of migrant labor in the fruit and vegetable industries. Shoplifting makes a statement against the alienation of the modern consumer. "If we are not able to find or afford any products other than these, that were made a thousand miles from us and about which we can know nothing," it asserts, "then we refuse to pay for these."
The shoplifter attacks the cynical mind control tactics of modern advertising. Today's commercials, billboards, even the floor—layouts and product displays in stores are designed by psychologists to manipulate potential consumers into purchasing products. Corporations carry out extensive advertising campaigns to insinuate their exhortations to consumption into every mind, and even work to make their products into status symbols that people from some walks of society eventually must own in order to be accorded respect. Faced with this kind of manipulation, the law-abiding consumer has two choices: either to come up with the money to purchase these products by selling his life away as a wage laborer, or to go without and possibly invite public ridicule as well as private frustration. The shoplifter creates a third choice of her own: she takes the products she has been conditioned to desire without paying for them, so the corporations themselves must pay for all of their propagandizing and mind control tactics.
Shoplifting is the most effective protest against all these objectionable attributes of modern corporations because it is not merely theoretical—it is practical, it involves action. Verbal protests can be raised to irresponsible business practices without ever having any solid effect, but shoplifting is intrinsically damaging these corporations at the same time as it (however covertly) demonstrates dissatisfaction. It is better than a boycott, because not only does it cost the corporation money rather than just denying it profit, it also means that the shoplifter is still able to obtain the products, which she may need to survive. And in these days when so many corporations are interconnected, and so many multinationals are involved in unacceptable activity, shoplifting is a generalized protest: it is a refusal to put any cash into the economy at all, so that the shoplifter can be sure that none of her cash will ever end up in the hands of the corporations she disapproves of. In addition to that, she will have to work less for them, as well!
But what about the people in the corporations? What about their welfare? First of all, corporations are distinct from traditional private businesses in that they exist as separate financial entities from their owners. So the shoplifter is stealing from a non-human entity, not directly from the pocket of a human being. Second, since so many workers are paid set wages (minimum wage, for example) that depend more on how little the corporation can get away with paying rather than on how much profit it is making, the shoplifter is not really hurting most of the workforce at any given company either. The stockholders, who are almost always far richer than your average thief, are the ones who stand to lose a little if the company suffers significant losses; but realistically, no campaign of shoplifting could be intense enough to force any of the wealthy individuals who actually profit from these companies into poverty. Besides, modern corporations have money set aside for shoplifting losses, because they anticipate them. That's correct—these corporations are aware that there is enough dissatisfaction with them and their capitalist economy that people are going to steal from them remorselessly. In that sense, shoplifters are just playing their role in society, just like C.E.O.s. More significantly, these corporations are cynical enough to go about their business as usual, even though they know this leaves many of their customers (and employees!) ready to steal anything from them that they can. If they are willing to continue doing business in this way even when they are aware how many people it alienates, they should not be surprised that people continue stealing from them.
Shoplifting is more than a way to survive in the cutthroat competition of the "free market" and protest corporate injustices. It is also a different kind of orientation to the world and to life.
The shoplifter makes do with an environment that has been conquered by capitalism and industry, where there is no longer a natural world from which to gather resources and everything has become private property, without accepting it or the absurd way of life it entails. She takes her life into her own hands by applying an ancient method to the problem of modern survival: she lives by urban hunting and gathering. In this way she is able to live much as her distant ancestors did before the world was subjugated by technology, imperialism, and the irrational demands of the "free" market; and she can find the same challenges and rewards in her work, rewards that are lost to the rest of us today. For her, the world is as dangerous and as exciting as it was to prehistoric humanity: every day she is in new situations, confronting new risks, living by her wits in a constantly changing environment. For the law-abiding consumer, it is likely that every day at work is similar to the last one and danger is as sorely lacking in life as meaning and purpose are.
To shoplift is to affirm immediate, bodily desires (such as hunger) over abstract "ethics" and other such ethereal constructs, most of which are left over from a deceased Christianity anyway. Shoplifting divests commodities (and the marketplace in general) of the mythical power they seem to have to control the lives of consumers... when they are seized by force, they show themselves for what they are: merely resources that have been held by force by these corporations at the expense of everyone else. Shoplifting places us back in the physical world, where things are real, where things are nothing more than their physical characteristics (weight, taste, ease of acquisition) and are not invested with superstitious qualities such as "market value" and "profit margin." It forces us to take risks and experience life firsthand again. Perhaps shoplifting alone will not be able to overthrow industrial society or the capitalist system... but in the meantime it is one of the best forms of protest and self-empowerment, and one of the most practical, too!
But shoplifting isn't herbaceous.
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blewmeanie




Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 28,984
Loc:
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: Compass]
#8457391 - 05/28/08 09:29 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Truthfully I don't even care if its wrong, I rob the fuck out of kangaroo gas stations every chance I get. I steal things I dont even want just because I can. My level of hatred for them is a little ridiculous.
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backfromthedead
Activated


Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 3,592
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: blewmeanie]
#8457818 - 05/28/08 11:00 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
blewmeanie said: Truthfully I don't even care if its wrong, I rob the fuck out of kangaroo gas stations every chance I get. I steal things I dont even want just because I can. My level of hatred for them is a little ridiculous.
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