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Offlinekotik
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #7425279 - 09/18/07 07:31 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
Stealing is stealing.  :shrug:  Whether you take from a rich man or a poor man it's still theft.




i have no problem with that, whatsoever

Quote:


The minimum wage is $5.75 I believe and it is being raised nationwide to $7 something in the next few years.  And yes, I have been poor before.  I have been to the point where I weighed 115 pounds, my apartment's heat was set at 50 in the middle of the winter, and I had nothing.  I still refuse to blame some "corporation" for my meager surroundings nor will I mooch off of the government or other people.  I have too much pride and I will support myself without thieving from society.




your pride doesnt mean anything, to anyone but you.  as long as you are comfortable with that, I am comfortable with stealing twice as much, just to make up for your own inaction. :thumbup:


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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


Edited by kotik (09/18/07 07:34 PM)


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Invisiblethedudenj
Man of the Woods

Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 14,684
Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: SlvrZeta]
    #7430518 - 09/19/07 11:00 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

i lived off of shoplifting,dine and running,gas and run for 3 months it may not be morally wrong but the police will chase you and security if they get a chance be aware of all cameras and undercover people. PS if you form a band of thieves and a guild there will be copy cats make sure they are decoys and get caught while your working. those idoits get in the new paper and you get away scot free, o we also stole alot of whiskey and beer you gota feed the crew and they loved their coke


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"You all are just  puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain...""
you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours


Edited by thedudenj (09/19/07 11:02 PM)


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Invisibleblewmeanie
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: thedudenj]
    #7431269 - 09/20/07 06:51 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Whatever happened to the golden rule?
It's pretty sensible if you ask me.
That being said I steal from kangaroo
gas stations every chance I get.
(Dont buy gas from them, there pumps arent accurate)


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The Prophecy!

Learn To Code


Edited by blewmeanie (09/20/07 06:53 AM)


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Invisiblethedudenj
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: SlvrZeta]
    #7431385 - 09/20/07 08:26 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

dude i know an exon dealer that makes his pumps inaccurate,when my friend worked for him he told him about it. Lots of stores rip you the fuck off its just they have gov. protection. im gona help create the new american gov. of the old country Union. the NAGOCU


--------------------

"You all are just  puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain...""
you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7431711 - 09/20/07 10:49 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

What does better reason have to do with all that?
And why the need for justification?
If I would decide to steal, I would assume responsibility for my actions and would not feel guilty or uncomfortable about it. I would do it because I decided to do so, no matter the reason. If I would fail at one or more of these criteria, I would decide not to steal.


I think basically this is a good action plan. It may take some practice to fully live it.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: Icelander]
    #7431737 - 09/20/07 10:56 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

That's pretty much my approach too... for some reason I always feel like I have to convince people that there really are all kinds of "reasons" for the things I think and do, especially when they believe the opposite. jesus, why do I do this? :cuckoo:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7431816 - 09/20/07 11:22 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

NiamhNyx said:
That's pretty much my approach too... for some reason I always feel like I have to convince people that there really are all kinds of "reasons" for the things I think and do, especially when they believe the opposite. jesus, why do I do this? :cuckoo:




I think  you (and I) do this because we truly do not have confidence in our own beliefs. Once full responsibility is accepted for the self then all that shit drops away.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7431837 - 09/20/07 11:28 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I think it is more than a lack of confidence in the validity of our beliefs.  It seems to me that diverging from our "tribe," no matter how much we may intellectually believe it is correct, triggers our ancient survival fears.  We really have not evolved very much since the days when acceptance and belonging made the difference between living and dying.  :shrug:  In our oldest brain, ostracism = death.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: Veritas]
    #7431843 - 09/20/07 11:29 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

That too.:thumbup::lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleadrug

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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: Icelander]
    #7432203 - 09/20/07 12:51 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

This thread makes me feel so old-fashioned...


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Offlinefiggusfiddus
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: SlvrZeta]
    #7432244 - 09/20/07 01:05 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

1) morality is subjective




Then why are you defending it?


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: figgusfiddus]
    #7432250 - 09/20/07 01:06 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Because of the emotional content :smirk:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Offlinefiggusfiddus
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7432270 - 09/20/07 01:13 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Well, I find people sometimes defend the most adamantly the things they don't quite believe yet. I wouldn't say that makes it incorrect, and either way it's just a guess on my part.

How much of theft morality is social? Does that make it illegitimate? Is this communitarian instinct, or conditioning? And is one more real than the other?

I think you have to prove that theft is wrong before you can prove it's right. I don't think anyone has conclusively done either, since a value judgment is necessary to say anything is wrong or right, really; is human community a good thing, or a bad thing? If you agree it's a good thing, then I guess you have a starting ground. After all, taboos on theft, murder, and so on surely originated as a means of protecting societies from the individuals that comprise them. (Unless you subscribe to the notion that some kind of irritable space-hippy was involved.)


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Edited by figgusfiddus (09/20/07 01:15 PM)


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Invisiblethedudenj
Man of the Woods

Registered: 08/18/04
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: SlvrZeta]
    #7432276 - 09/20/07 01:14 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

the only things that shouldnt be stolen are things with emotional attachment. those should be shared


--------------------

"You all are just  puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain...""
you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours


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Offlinefiggusfiddus
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: thedudenj]
    #7432282 - 09/20/07 01:15 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Like our womens?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: figgusfiddus]
    #7432306 - 09/20/07 01:21 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

It gets more complicated then just saying is community a good thing IMO. I live in a community and a country that is called a tribe. But is it my tribe? To my liking? With my values. We don't live in a world where you can necessarily just bail to somewhere else if you don't like what's going on around you.

So for me the question is does this community value my values and respect me the way I want to be. The answer is no. So do I owe allegiance to their values?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: figgusfiddus]
    #7432325 - 09/20/07 01:24 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Ah, isn't that obvious ?

Theft, done from 'poor' ones in 'existential' needs done towards 'rich' ones in 'capitalistic' greed is (or can be seen) morally 'right' and justiciable.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: figgusfiddus]
    #7432340 - 09/20/07 01:27 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I think that mostly, thought establishing what's moral, all we do is determining what offends us and hurts us. And this is mainly because we borrow those ideas from our parents, teachers, and the like. It's not even like we filter them through reason anymore. If the majority says we should get offended by something, then we do, because we figure that they should "know better".
I see the reasons behind protecting societies and I believe it does make some sense, but the thing is that, with many occasions, through ethics, we're not even doing that anymore. We rather protect the idea of what a society should be like, instead of accepting what's really happening and looking for the most efficient solutions that would fit for the actual circumstances. :shrug:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7432404 - 09/20/07 01:41 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

:thumbup: Right.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinefiggusfiddus
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: Icelander]
    #7432405 - 09/20/07 01:41 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
It gets more complicated then just saying is community a good thing IMO. I live in a community and a country that is called a tribe. But is it my tribe? To my liking? With my values. We don't live in a world where you can necessarily just bail to somewhere else if you don't like what's going on around you.

So for me the question is does this community value my values and respect me the way I want to be. The answer is no. So do I owe allegiance to their values?




That's up to you to decide. And that would be a major factor in determining whether theft is acceptable to your moral standards.

But if so, what about murder? I mean, you can draw the rejection of communitarian ideals out to its extreme and come up with things most of us would still find unpalatable. Perhaps we've just been very well conditioned.

But I think it comes down to more than just which society you live in, and whether you agree with the majority of its people on certain issues. I'm not talking about tribe, or identity, or nationality, or ethnicity. I'm talking about the actual interaction of human beings, the most basic, paleolithic kind of community you can imagine, but applicable to modern times as much as ancient.

In other words, are you willing, through theft, to forsake the protections that society gives you against theft? Don't fool yourself, they're plenty, and they don't just come in the form of the police (who are only effective mostly as a deterrent, anyway). Societies have conditioned their members against theft, murder, and certain other vices deemed unsuitable to the stability of human interaction. They're very effective systems, because they also condition their members to recognize those who break the codes as exempt from certain protections.

If you're willing to forsake those protections, you must admit that the people around you are free to do whatever they wish to you--well, not literally perhaps. Generally speaking, this will involve imprisonment, but only because we live in a society that has built-in restraints other than simple morality.

Morality is a tool for communal stabilization. Aspects of it seem to be ingrained into us, but most of the things we actually have names for are taught. There's nothing magical or ethereal about it, it's just a matter of deciding whether you wish to subscribe to given parts of the common morality or not. Social contract theory at its simplest.

It's not just political science, though. It's just as true with individual relationships. More true, maybe. A nation-state is not exactly an ideal representative of human society. It's a modern, artificial construct, and doesn't really have so much to do with the our society as the people we see every day. Law wasn't always codified, and before it was, it was pretty fluid. There are ways in which your relationship with a significant other, or with family members, resemble the same pattern. Human relationships are all founded on some kind of implicit mutual agreement, and that's all law and morality comes down to.


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Edited by figgusfiddus (09/20/07 01:53 PM)


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