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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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No! Never!
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'


Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 3,198
Last seen: 14 years, 8 months
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7421719 - 09/17/07 10:22 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yes, yes and yes to the three posts directly following my last post. Especially the raiding party on the Romans... that sounds like a damn good time if you ask me... "When in Rome, do as the Vandals did."
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RandalFlagg
Stranger

Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7421730 - 09/17/07 10:25 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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NiamhNyx said: I don't think you understand the function of colonization with regards to the development of capital.
Did the major European powers benefit financially from making colonies out of and getting resources from these third world countries? Yes, they did. Did that wealth lay the groundwork for some of the technological and industrial advancement in these European countries? Yes, it probably did. Does this past negate the efficiency and productivity of the free-market? No. Did the European power's past colonialism adversely harm these nations forever? No. Britian used to own India and here India has become a major economic power. Britian partitioned Iraq and it still has immense oil wealth (if the Iraqi's can ever get their shit together). Past meddling in foreign country's business does not negate the benefits or efficiencies of capitalism. Even though there were abuses in the past it is still is a good system.
You are tying together the free-market with the actions of these nations. I think that is irrelevant because nations of all ideological and economic persuasions have engaged in imperialism and in my opinion the communists were the most horrific offenders.
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NiamhNyx said: Funny, we just discussed this today in my Modern History class, how convenient! Colonialism provided a resource base necessary to the growing Industrialism of the great powers of Europe. Britain, for example, was incapable of providing herself with the raw materials necessary for her continued development, thus looking elsewhere. Rubber and cotton were both extremely important commodities, thus the theft of India and other tropical colonies where such crops could be grown. The colonies provided a stable base of resources to exploit to continue feeding the ever voracious growth of capital. Marx calls this 'primitive accumulation.'
This is why I despised my university and why I am so glad I dropped out. My time there was full of Leftist ideological indoctrination pushed on me by over-educated twits who called themselves professors and who wouldn't know their asses from a hole in the ground.
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NiamhNyx said: My point is thus made, Capital required colonization if it wished to grow at such a rate.
Bull. The free-market would have done just fine and does just fine without colonization.
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NiamhNyx said: Do you deny the role governments have played in providing a climate suitable for Capital?
Have governments pursued policies which benefited their respective nations and companies? Of course there have been instances of that.
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NiamhNyx said: Governments are the police of the world, supressing rebellions and enforcing laws that ensure the mass of the population will be inclined to show up for work and purchase the goods available.
The government doesn't force people to consume. People willingly do that on their own and that is what drives the free market.
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NiamhNyx said: The economic system is inseparable from the climate and means by which it originated.
I disagree.
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NiamhNyx said: (explain the oil crisis and the American interest in the middle east in other terms, if you can.)
What about it?
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NiamhNyx said: Well, I am an anarchist after all. There is, however, nothing 'pseudo' about my intellectual babble.
Anarchism in all of its forms is a flawed and unrealistic philosophy. I myself used to spout crap from Bakunin and Proudhun. Then one day....I grew up.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: RandalFlagg]
#7421747 - 09/17/07 10:30 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Then one day....I grew up. 
Are you sure?
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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RandalFlagg
Stranger

Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7421762 - 09/17/07 10:32 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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NiamhNyx said: A corporation is not a person, it is a machine of exploitation and destruction of the land. A few people at the top of the machine benefit immensely from it, the rest of us don't.
Oh, dear Lord.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger

Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7421778 - 09/17/07 10:35 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said: Are you sure?
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....



Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,908
Loc: My Youniverse....
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7421910 - 09/17/07 11:06 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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So, just destroy everything so that nobody has anything.... Done deal.... Nothing to steal, and nothing to be stolen....
Well, except life itself.... 
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7421939 - 09/17/07 11:14 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Anarchism means absence of rule. With other words, refusing to obey to any for of authority. I see nothing wrong with that.  What does destruction, in the way you presented it, has to do anything with anarchy?
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....



Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,908
Loc: My Youniverse....
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7421974 - 09/17/07 11:25 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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MushroomTrip said: Anarchism means absence of rule. With other words, refusing to obey to any for of authority. I see nothing wrong with that.  What does destruction, in the way you presented it, has to do anything with anarchy?
LoL, have you seen the "small scale" anarchy that happens at a natural disaster like a hurricane....? Public raping also happens along with the destruction....
The anarchy would end up becoming organized if it became long term - which is contradictory(at least in my ignorant understanding of the term "anarchy")....
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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Phred
Fred's son


Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 18 days
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: SlvrZeta]
#7421976 - 09/17/07 11:26 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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SlvrZeta writes:
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1) morality is subjective
Incorrect.
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2) the CEO of WalMart doesn't need another gold doorknob or Mercedes Benz.
And this makes shoplifting okay how, exactly? Non sequitur. Note also that you don't need that CD you just shoplifted either.
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3) Life is expensive as it is.
And this makes shoplifting moral how, exactly?
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How is it fair that the proletariat earn a shitty wage like $7.50/hr -- year after year -- when inflation is a constant battle? I don't know about you but my salary is still the same after 6 months --- and I can assure you gas prices, food prices, etc have ALL gone up in the past 6 months --- but I haven't had a raise to combat these threats.
So do something to deserve a raise, or get another job that pays better. Or buy less stuff.
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4) people who would "never shoplift" are usually people who download music, DVDs, and video games --- all objects which cost money at a retail store.
Some people who wouldn't shoplift would do those things, yes. Others wouldn't. All of those examples are nonetheless theft.
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5) Capitalism by its nature is all about stealing.
Incorrect.
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For every dollar you have in your pocket, that is one less dollar somebody else has in theirs (I see some debates with this one --- zero-sum economy and all that).
You won't see "some debate", you'll see outright laughter at this absurd assertion -- anyone who actually thinks about this for more than a few minutes will recognize that the accumulation of wealth is not a zero sum game.
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6) The motto of capitalism: "YOU WORK I WIN!"
Nonsense. Even if it were the motto of capitalism (and it isn't) how does this justify shoplifiting?
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7) Is it fair that a gallon of milk should cost $4.99
Yes. In actual fact it should cost more, but the government interferes in the economy to keep its price artificially low.
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8) Shoplifting a few items can ease the pain of actually having to use money, ie, like filling up your gas tank (although stealing gasoline can be a pastime for some).
And rape can ease the pain of actually having to gain consent from a sexual partner. What's your point?
This is one of the creepiest posts I've seen in this forum in quite some time, and there is no shortage of creepy posts here. Thanks for the fascinating insight you've given us into your character. If you'd be kind enough to give us your real name and the city you live in, we'll know who to avoid when we're in town. It wouldn't be Sylvester Zeta from Chicago, would it?
Phred
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7422075 - 09/18/07 12:06 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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LoL, have you seen the "small scale" anarchy that happens at a natural disaster like a hurricane....? Public raping also happens along with the destruction....
This is the result of the fact that people refuse to take responsibility for their actions and because they're unable to reason. They're used to submitting and when they have freedom they don't know how to behave or what to make of it. It's like stating that drugs should be illegal just because there are people who act irresponsible when under the influence.
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The anarchy would end up becoming organized if it became long term - which is contradictory(at least in my ignorant understanding of the term "anarchy")....
An ignorant understanding of the term anarchy doesn't mean that true anarchy can't exist. Growing happens when we learn from mistakes. I'd like to draw a parallel here with over protective parents. The unfortunate children who have such parents will never be ready for living live in a free and responsible manner because all they knew to do was obey and follow rules. As opposed to children which are let to experience life, get their asses kicked and learn from their mistakes. How can we ever expect from human kind to grow up, it if keeps being over protected and ruled up to the point of absurdity and alienation? Somehow, this has got to stop. Taking control over own own lives, thinking with our minds and learning from our mistakes means liberation and it's empowering for the individual. Those who don't make it - natural selection.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: SlvrZeta]
#7422187 - 09/18/07 01:03 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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SlvrZeta said: My spirits are lifted when I shoplift from corporate companies/chain grocery stores. I do not steal from little shops, mom & pop stores, etc. I like WalMart, Target, and the chain supermarkets.
The only reason you prefer these supermarkets is because of the ease with which you are capable of getting away with it.
Here's the thing with ownership - if you feel it justified to take stuff that is owned by someone else, then you logically cannot have a problem with anyone stealing anything "owned" by yourself.
If you do have a problem with people coming into your home at any time and taking anything that you might consider to belong to yourself, and yet you personally go to the property of others and take what they own, then your perspective is conflicted. For some reason you feel that one person is entitled to ownership, and another is not, and follows is your "justification" for it. It doesn't change the fact that society has a mutual understanding of the notion of ownership, which your viewpoint lies at odds with. To others, they accept the notion that they own property, with the subsequent notion that others are entitled to ownership as well. It makes sense, after all. Most people, who feel that they wish to own things in order to benefit their life, respect the fact that others have the same right, to the point that they support a legal system that establishes this right.
This same legal system establishes that individuals may cooperate with each other as an entity that has identity and existance that eclipses that of each individual, and these entities are entitled to the same notion of ownership.
When you steal property from corporations, such as national retail outlets, you are in effect stealing from every single individual that exists as an aspect of that corporation. The benefit of incorporation is more ability to absorb the loss that your theft creates amongst each individual - stealing $300 from myself personally will cause me much more harm than stealing it from my store, which will cause much more harm to the store than the corporation it exists within.
This doesn't change the fact that you are stealing from me. It doesn't change the fact that you are stealing from every single individual who works together as a corporation. This doesn't change the fact that what you are engaging in is any different from anyone coming into your home and stealing your shit.
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1) morality is subjective
Please elaborate. Morality might be subjective, but the mutual decisions as to how a society operates is objective. As most individuals do not wish for others to have the right to enter into their homes and steal that which they own, most individuals accept the notion that others are entitled to ownership as well. Morality might be subjective, but fines are objective, and so is a criminal record.
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2) the CEO of WalMart doesn't need another gold doorknob or Mercedes Benz.
Every individual is entitled to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. We are sovereign entities that have the right to make decisions for ourselves how we will utilize our resources that we have accumulated through legal means, i.e., not imposing upon the rights of others. Your decision to steal from the corporation within which the CEO is one individual amongst millions in order to dictate how he is to use his resources is not just, and it is not civil. The corporation decides how much profit he receives for his contributions, for being responsible for billions of dollars. How he uses his cut personally is his own decision.
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3) Life is expensive as it is. How is it fair that the proletariat earn a shitty wage like $7.50/hr -- year after year -- when inflation is a constant battle? I don't know about you but my salary is still the same after 6 months --- and I can assure you gas prices, food prices, etc have ALL gone up in the past 6 months --- but I haven't had a raise to combat these threats.
How is it fair that, this year, there is less and less buffalo for us to hunt? Why is it fair that, this year, there was a drought and we didn't grow enough vegetables as we feel we should have? Why is it fair that, this year, a disease came and incapacitated more of our hunters, meaning that we didn't bring in enough game for everyone to survive the winter?
Failure to comprehend the nature of reality, or of economic conditions, isn't a justification for theft. In fact, your theft from a corporation has a rippling effect towards creating inflation. These stores either have to increase the costs of the goods and services they provide, absorb the loss by taking it out of the expenses of their operations, making them less capable of effectively performing their business, thus threatening the livelihood of those who rely on those expenses to be employed, or pass that loss onto those who have invested in their corporation, making them more risky for future investment.
Thanks for contributing to inflation. 
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4) people who would "never shoplift" are usually people who download music, DVDs, and video games --- all objects which cost money at a retail store.
Murder is acceptable behavior, provided that others engage in it as well, eh?
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5) Capitalism by its nature is all about stealing. For every dollar you have in your pocket, that is one less dollar somebody else has in theirs (I see some debates with this one --- zero-sum economy and all that).
It is about production, not theft. Exerting energy in exchange for a representation of that energy with which one can trade for goods and services. Competition does not justify theft.
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6) The motto of capitalism: "YOU WORK I WIN!"
Rather, "We all work; We all win."
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7) Is it fair that a gallon of milk should cost $4.99 (that is what it is in this state everywhere)?
The world doesn't revolve around you. There are actually reasons why the cost of milk has risen.
Startling realization that!
Milk production falls, demand continues to increase, cost increases. Information and understanding can be your friend, although it probably makes it less possible to rationalize wrongdoing.
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8) Shoplifting a few items can ease the pain of actually having to use money, ie, like filling up your gas tank (although stealing gasoline can be a pastime for some).
I look forward to the day when you are locked up. It'll ease my pain knowing that I will profit more as the loss you provide the corporation I currently exist within no longer has to be absorbed. The opportunity for meditation in jail will be very spiritual.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7422209 - 09/18/07 01:19 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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MushroomTrip said: This is the result of the fact that people refuse to take responsibility for their actions and because they're unable to reason. They're used to submitting and when they have freedom they don't know how to behave or what to make of it. It's like stating that drugs should be illegal just because there are people who act irresponsible when under the influence.
Precisely; I think he would have been better to define what he was referring to as chaos. From what I understand, anarchy is the thought that individuals are sovereign and the formation of any kind of institution to regulate societal order is a limitation of that inherent sovereignity. I do not consider myself an anarchist myself though, and haven't really studied it, so perhaps that is wrong. I definitely wouldn't consider what occurs when a natural disaster occurs and when the normal societal framework that conducts human affairs (which exists simply as an abstraction in the minds of each individual, of course) is no longer adhered to as anarchy, however.
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Growing happens when we learn from mistakes. I'd like to draw a parallel here with over protective parents. The unfortunate children who have such parents will never be ready for living live in a free and responsible manner because all they knew to do was obey and follow rules. As opposed to children which are let to experience life, get their asses kicked and learn from their mistakes. How can we ever expect from human kind to grow up, it if keeps being over protected and ruled up to the point of absurdity and alienation? Somehow, this has got to stop. Taking control over own own lives, thinking with our minds and learning from our mistakes means liberation and it's empowering for the individual. Those who don't make it - natural selection.
As I was saying, the order that brings us all to act as a society exists as an abstraction, and, as you say, the more we assume responsibility for ourselves, the more we act and exist as sovereign human beings, the more empowered we will be. Quite naturally, the less power will be centralized away from the individual and into an externalized, abstract system that enables those who are willing to assume responsibility for the lives of others to take advantage of that opportunity.
To relate to the original topic and support my own position on the matter, this order exists as a more or less mutual understanding, and those who are not civil beings, engaging in behavior that infringes upon the rights and liberties of others, only serve to bring others to choose to perpetuate an abstract limitation of their own power, even though it has to be reinforced that these individuals, themselves, are responsible for doing so, and not the uncivil. Still, the more everyone takes responsibility for themselves, and consciously chooses to act in civil, symbiotic ways, the more preferential this experience on this planet will be, as we will all be free, from ourselves.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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BlueCoyote
Beyond



Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 16 days
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7422269 - 09/18/07 02:18 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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There is indeed a big imbalance of wealth for the people on earth, which could justify some 'moderate' pricing politics so one hasn't to label it 'stealing' anymore 
But economics sadly works the other way around, 'till now, because profit can only be done if a good portion of humans stay poor and therefor in need-mode.
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Kinematics
coyote vision


Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 662
Loc: Colorado
Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: fireworks_god]
#7422274 - 09/18/07 02:22 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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What it comes down to is, you're taking something that doesn't belong to you, and regardless of who is more rich or who can afford to lose it doesn't matter. It's not yours and it is disrespectful of another's property and person.
Why is this even a discussion?
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7422422 - 09/18/07 04:31 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Huehue, I disagree. What if you hold a value that is not shared by a close friend or family member, and they are telling you off for doing something they think is wrong? Would you roll over and let them berate you, or would you attempt to explain how and why your values differ from thiers?
I may try to explain my values (rather lack of values) to someone, but not in defense of my actions. When you take responsibility for your actions, and act in full awareness, then your actions come directly from your integrity. When you act out of integrity your actions stand alone. There is no need for explanation or defense. Others can criticise, but the need to defend only arises when one feels that they did not act out of their integrity. This insecurity is avoided if one owns their actions. As for values....I try to not use generalizations and just rely on a few rules of thumb that are flexible. I try to take everything on a case by case basis.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7422690 - 09/18/07 08:17 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
NiamhNyx said:
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Veritas said: Nope. If I feel it is OK, then I don't think about it afterward. Except to enjoy, of course. If I think that my decision was not-so-great, then I'll consider why I disapprove. Any attempts on my part to justify behavior are cause for suspicion and self-examination.
Have you never done anything that you felt was completely acceptable according to your own moral standards, yet most people find completely unacceptable? In such a situation would you not feel to need to defend yourself against those who criticize you for your immorality?
Not unless they have the power to arrest me. I found myself in exactly that position with my mother during my wild youth, and I refused to defend or explain myself to her. Since then, it has been clear to me that others will not understand nor condone my amorality, so I do not attempt to educate nor convince them.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: SlvrZeta]
#7422936 - 09/18/07 10:09 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
SlvrZeta said: My spirits are lifted when I shoplift from corporate companies/chain grocery stores. I do not steal from little shops, mom & pop stores, etc. I like WalMart, Target, and the chain supermarkets. Here is my justification:
1) morality is subjective
2) the CEO of WalMart doesn't need another gold doorknob or Mercedes Benz.
3) Life is expensive as it is. How is it fair that the proletariat earn a shitty wage like $7.50/hr -- year after year -- when inflation is a constant battle? I don't know about you but my salary is still the same after 6 months --- and I can assure you gas prices, food prices, etc have ALL gone up in the past 6 months --- but I haven't had a raise to combat these threats.
4) people who would "never shoplift" are usually people who download music, DVDs, and video games --- all objects which cost money at a retail store.
5) Capitalism by its nature is all about stealing. For every dollar you have in your pocket, that is one less dollar somebody else has in theirs (I see some debates with this one --- zero-sum economy and all that).
6) The motto of capitalism: "YOU WORK I WIN!"
7) Is it fair that a gallon of milk should cost $4.99 (that is what it is in this state everywhere)?
8) Shoplifting a few items can ease the pain of actually having to use money, ie, like filling up your gas tank (although stealing gasoline can be a pastime for some).
I'm going to rate you five shrooms for this wonderful post.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: Kinematics]
#7422951 - 09/18/07 10:14 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Why is this even a discussion?
Because just because you believe something to be true don't make it so.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'


Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 3,198
Last seen: 14 years, 8 months
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: Veritas]
#7423017 - 09/18/07 10:31 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Veritas said:
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NiamhNyx said:
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Veritas said: Nope. If I feel it is OK, then I don't think about it afterward. Except to enjoy, of course. If I think that my decision was not-so-great, then I'll consider why I disapprove. Any attempts on my part to justify behavior are cause for suspicion and self-examination.
Have you never done anything that you felt was completely acceptable according to your own moral standards, yet most people find completely unacceptable? In such a situation would you not feel to need to defend yourself against those who criticize you for your immorality?
Not unless they have the power to arrest me. I found myself in exactly that position with my mother during my wild youth, and I refused to defend or explain myself to her. Since then, it has been clear to me that others will not understand nor condone my amorality, so I do not attempt to educate nor convince them.
Fair enough.
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