|
PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....



Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,908
Loc: My Youniverse....
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
|
Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: RandalFlagg]
#7421351 - 09/17/07 08:44 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|

>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
|
MushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
|
Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7421371 - 09/17/07 08:48 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Either theft is morally acceptable or not, make up yer damn mind or redefine property.
|
NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'


Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 3,198
Last seen: 14 years, 8 months
|
Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: RandalFlagg]
#7421383 - 09/17/07 08:51 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
I have 2 roomates and my rent is $525 a month. It's next to impossible to live for any cheaper in my city, unless you want to live in a moldy, disease ridden shithole in the ghetto. Even then you'll be paying $400. I'm not complaining about my economic position though, I have a student loan so I'm living the high life. I also have access to middle class privilege in that my dad is well off and helps me if I need it (I prefer not to take his money most of the time, I have pride too you know.) The trouble is when I finish school and have $50,000 debt... I sure would appreciate a grant system instead, considering my education with inevitably benefit the economy.
|
RandalFlagg
Stranger

Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
|
Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7421396 - 09/17/07 08:55 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
NiamhNyx said: Interesting. How about Canada, the United States, Mexico, South America, much of the South Pacific, etc.. etc...
I would not equate a mass exodus of new people moving into a land as being "capitalism". Did the Indians get screwed? Yes. Does that have anything to do with the principles of the free-market and how efficient a system it is and how it provides unparalleled wealth to all classes? No. Poor people in American have roofs over their heads, food in their stomachs (they are often overweight), TV's, phones, electricity, and access to transportation. They are living better than 99% of the people who have lived throughout history.
Funny...do you remember when communist Russia took over Eastern Europe and made all of those countries puppet regimes?
Quote:
NiamhNyx said: If 'stealing is stealing' and it's unconditionally 'wrong' than the entire premise of the capitalist system is wrong.
Capitalism merely is a term to describe the free market. A free market is when people are left to engage in economic activity without excessive government interference. It should be noted that America is not %100 capitalist. We have minimum wage laws, interest rate controls, anti-monopoly laws, worker safety laws, etc.. There are tons of instances where the U.S. federal government interferes in economic affairs.
Quote:
NiamhNyx said: As I already pointed out, entire continents are still colonized and will continue to be colonized in perpetuity. The free market never could have developed to the extent it did without Imperialism.
Bullshit. No matter what the population trends and exoduses Mankind may have been engaged in a free market economy is still the best economic system for providing the highest possible material wealth to all of its participants.
Quote:
NiamhNyx said: The essence of capitalism is theft.
You are confusing the history of some nations and peoples with an economic system. I repeat: this economic system can and does exist without any type of imperialism or colonialism and also there were many instances of naked aggression by communist countries.
Quote:
NiamhNyx said: If Capital is theft, then expropriation is a natural and proper balancing mechanism.
Bull. That's nothing but Leftist-anarcho pseudo intellectual babble that attempts to justify taking something that isn't yours.
Edited by RandalFlagg (09/17/07 09:01 PM)
|
NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'


Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 3,198
Last seen: 14 years, 8 months
|
|
Quote:
MushmanTheManic said: Either theft is morally acceptable or not, make up yer damn mind or redefine property.
I'm attempting to illustrate the hypocrisy of the capitalist system. If capitalists believe that stealing is morally wrong, then they must also believe that that the way capitalism developed was morally wrong. If the way capitalism developed was morally wrong, than it is not so much of a leap to believe that it is morally right to attempt to balance the scales through petty theft and/or larger scale expropriation.
Morality is not black and white, Mushman. There is a pretty massive difference between stealing a continent and stealing a loaf of bread. I believe that theft is right or wrong depending on context. I do not believe it is right to steal from an impoverished individual, or from a small and struggling family business. I have no qualms stealing from Walmart or the Queen of England. The latter hoard wealth, the former have too little.
|
RandalFlagg
Stranger

Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
|
Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7421422 - 09/17/07 09:00 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
NiamhNyx said: The trouble is when I finish school and have $50,000 debt...
Millions of people are dealing with this same reality. Work hard, get your shit paid off, and save. 
Quote:
NiamhNyx said: I sure would appreciate a grant system instead, considering my education with inevitably benefit the economy.
If you are in the U.S. there are grants available at the state and federal level. Also, look into scholarships. And, lastly I would suggest getting good grades, working a part time job, and working your ass off. If you do these things you'll set yourself up for a good future and you'll get ahead. Then you can watch as the government takes a bunch of your money and gives it to other people who made dumb decisions (having too many kids, smoking cigarettes, not working very hard, etc..).
Yay for socialism!
|
PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....



Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,908
Loc: My Youniverse....
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
|
Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7421461 - 09/17/07 09:07 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
So, do you think it would be OK for everyone in the US to go to the local Walmart and steal whatever they want....? Then go back tomorrow and do it again....? And again....?
Where do you start drawing the lines.... When is it "OK" for me to steal from you.....?
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
|
RandalFlagg
Stranger

Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
|
Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7421474 - 09/17/07 09:09 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
My computer is acting kind of goofy lately. And given that he is using a computer (that was made under the evil economic system known as capitalism) then I should be able to just take it for my own purposes. After all, I deserve it!
|
MushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
|
Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7421481 - 09/17/07 09:10 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
If capitalists believe that stealing is morally wrong, then they must also believe that that the way capitalism developed was morally wrong.
The way industrial capitalism developed may be morally wrong, and I think many capitalists would be willing to accept this, but that does not make a free-market system morally wrong in and of itself. In it's present incarnation in most of the Western world, I don't think capitalism is very exploitative nor do I see any system that works much better. Even in countries such as Sweden and Norway, a free-market economy still exists to some extent.
|
RandalFlagg
Stranger

Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
|
|
Quote:
MushmanTheManic said: The way industrial capitalism developed may be morally wrong, and I think many capitalists would be willing to accept this, but that does not make a free-market system morally wrong in and of itself. In it's present incarnation in most of the Western world, I don't think capitalism is very exploitative nor do I see any system that works much better. Even in countries such as Sweden and Norway, a free-market economy still exists to some extent.
Exactly.
|
MushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
|
Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7421488 - 09/17/07 09:13 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
I believe that theft is right or wrong depending on context. I do not believe it is right to steal from an impoverished individual, or from a small and struggling family business. I have no qualms stealing from Walmart or the Queen of England. The latter hoard wealth, the former have too little.
The more property a person has, the less right they have to own it?
|
RandalFlagg
Stranger

Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
|
|
Classic Leftist class-envy/hatred that has no basis in logic or rationality.
|
MushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
|
Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: RandalFlagg]
#7421510 - 09/17/07 09:20 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
To be honest, I have stolen many times. I think it is wrong... but at the time I didn't give a fuck.
Anything not nailed to the floor is mine.
|
NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'


Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 3,198
Last seen: 14 years, 8 months
|
Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: RandalFlagg]
#7421518 - 09/17/07 09:22 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
I would not equate a mass exodus of new people moving into a land as being "capitalism". Did the Indians get screwed? Yes. Does that have anything to do with the principles of the free-market and how efficient a system it is and how it provides unparalleled wealth to all classes? No. Poor people in American have roofs over their heads, food in their stomachs (they are often overweight), TV's, phones, electricity, and access to transportation. They are living better than 99% of the people who have lived throughout history.
Funny...do you remember when communist Russia took over Eastern Europe and made all of those countries puppet regimes?
I don't think you understand the function of colonization with regards to the development of capital. Funny, we just discussed this today in my Modern History class, how convenient! Colonialism provided a resource base necessary to the growing Industrialism of the great powers of Europe. Britain, for example, was incapable of providing herself with the raw materials necessary for her continued development, thus looking elsewhere. Rubber and cotton were both extremely important commodities, thus the theft of India and other tropical colonies where such crops could be grown. The colonies provided a stable base of resources to exploit to continue feeding the ever voracious growth of capital. Marx calls this 'primitive accumulation.'
The colonies also provided a convenient place to dump inconvenient masses of increasingly class-conscious proletarians, thus easing internal tensions at home.
A third factor is that the steady and predictable import of raw materials from the colonies provided a stable basis for production level investment at home. Factories could run because there was no shortage of materials to work with. The colonies also provided a market for the goods made at home, as most colonies did not have the sort of manufacturing infrastructure that the homeland had, and the settlers of course still had a taste for the sorts of things they got at home.
Imperialism provided the perfect climate for the hasty development of Capital.
My point is thus made, Capital required colonization if it wished to grow at such a rate. It would have otherwise been contained to a rather small geographical region which was facing increasing tensions regarding class, nationalist aspirations, the decline of the Austro-Hungarian and Ottoman Empires, etc.
Capitalism merely is a term to describe the free market. A free market is when people are left to engage in economic activity without excessive government interference. It should be noted that America is not %100 capitalist. We have minimum wage laws, interest rate controls, anti-monopoly laws, worker safety laws, etc.. There are tons of instances where the U.S. federal government interferes in economic affairs.
Do you deny the role governments have played in providing a climate suitable for Capital? Governments are the police of the world, supressing rebellions and enforcing laws that ensure the mass of the population will be inclined to show up for work and purchase the goods available.
Bullshit. No matter what the population trends and exoduses Mankind may have been engaged in a free market economy is still the best economic system for providing the highest possible material wealth to all of its participants.
Colonization is more complex than simple population fluctuation and exodus. I am not arguing about whether or not capitalism is more or less materially productive than other systems, this is besides the point.
You are confusing the history of some nations and peoples with an economic system. I repeat: this economic system can and does exist without any type of imperialism or colonialism and also there were many instances of naked aggression by communist countries.
The economic system is inseparable from the climate and means by which it originated. This economic system cannot and never has existed without Imperialism and colonization. It developed in this climate, and it continues to function on the same principle (explain the oil crisis and the American interest in the middle east in other terms, if you can.)
Bull. That's nothing but Leftist-anarcho pseudo intellectual babble that attempts to justify taking something that isn't yours.
Well, I am an anarchist after all. There is, however, nothing 'pseudo' about my intellectual babble.
Edited by NiamhNyx (09/17/07 09:23 PM)
|
NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'


Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 3,198
Last seen: 14 years, 8 months
|
|
Quote:
MushmanTheManic said:
The more property a person has, the less right they have to own it?
If person A is starving, and person B has such a feast that they require a vomitorium to make room in thier gut to stuff more in there, than of course person A is justified in stealing enough to fill thier belly. (Wealthy Romans would go to 'vomitoriums' to puke so that they could eat more, this is what I am referencing.)
I'm not talking about stealing plasma screen tv's from the living room of some comfortable middle class family, I'm talking about subsistence and the relativity of morality. Context is key.
|
MushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
|
Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7421573 - 09/17/07 09:42 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
That was not the context I was discussing.
The context was stealing from large businesses because capitalists exploit the working class and don't need a new Benz.
|
NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'


Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 3,198
Last seen: 14 years, 8 months
|
|
A corporation is not a person, it is a machine of exploitation and destruction of the land. A few people at the top of the machine benefit immensely from it, the rest of us don't. So yes, it is morally right to steal from such a thing.
|
OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
|
Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7421626 - 09/17/07 10:01 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
I think we should have a raiding party on the ancient Romans. Who is with me?
--------------------
|
MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
|
Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7421634 - 09/17/07 10:03 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
I think that the term morality should vanish from our vocabulary
--------------------
   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
|
OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
|
Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7421643 - 09/17/07 10:06 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
The word 'should' should be removed as well.
--------------------
|
|