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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #7421062 - 09/17/07 07:28 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Mushman - That's simply not true. This is sometimes the case in restaurants, but it is not true in retail establishments, and it is not true in any place that I have ever worked. If you are refering to some arcane economic principle, and arguing that the profit discrepancy caused by shoplifting comes out of wages, that's ridiculous. Wages are determined by many factors (legal minimum wages, unions, trends within the field, etc.) Employers on principle keep wages as low as possible, and use things like shoplifting as an argument to defend themselves, when really, the wages would be as low as possible regardless.


Huehue, I disagree. What if you hold a value that is not shared by a close friend or family member, and they are telling you off for doing something they think is wrong? Would you roll over and let them berate you, or would you attempt to explain how and why your values differ from thiers? I know and care about many people who's values are not always in line with mine (considering how unconventional my perspective is, this is rather common.) Because I care about these people, I prefer to engage in a dialogue about our differences, explaining how I came to the conclusions I have regarding my ethics. I can take complete responsibility for myself and my actions but also defend them for the sake of being understood by others (and not needlessly persecuted due to misunderstanding.) It's silly to think that defending one's ideas somehow reflects a shortcoming or lack of true belief when it is really about communication and clarity. Talking about things is, after all, how we develop and challenge ourselves and one another.


Edited by NiamhNyx (09/17/07 07:36 PM)


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: SlvrZeta]
    #7421151 - 09/17/07 07:57 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

SlvrZeta said:
2) the CEO of WalMart doesn't need another gold doorknob or Mercedes Benz.




Actually, the executives at Wal-Mart are renowned for their frugality. The CEO has a tiny and austere office (I've seen it on TV) and stays in $60 a night hotel rooms. I'm not sure what his pay is off the top of my head though.

Quote:

SlvrZeta said:
3) Life is expensive as it is. How is it fair that the proletariat earn a shitty wage like $7.50/hr -- year after year -- when inflation is a constant battle?




Because their labor isn't worth much. Running a cash register isn't difficult and thus it isn't valuable.

Quote:

SlvrZeta said:
5) Capitalism by its nature is all about stealing. For every dollar you have in your pocket, that is one less dollar somebody else has in theirs




Leftist drivel.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: SlvrZeta]
    #7421171 - 09/17/07 08:02 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

SlvrZeta said:
The federal government does an awful job at providing for the less fortunate. For such a wealthy nation, we have one of the highest homeless rates over many other industrialized nations.




The federal government shouldn't provide anything for anybody in my opinion. I think that we should support ourselves.

But, the federal government does give a shitload of free stuff to poor people. Some welfare mom who popped out four kids and earns $15,000 a year at some shit job will probably get a free public-subsidized apartment, free medical care for her kids (Medicaid), free schooling for her children (usually $10,000 per public school student), free food stamps every month, not be required to pay federal taxes (in fact she might even get a credit, i.e. the federal government gives her money), and on and on.

So, this hypothetical woman contributes nothing to the federal government and the federal government is probably spending at least $50,000 a year on her and her kids. Sounds like a sweet deal to me.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7421186 - 09/17/07 08:05 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

NiamhNyx said:
I think the only phrase you need to argue in favour of shoplifting is Proudhon's 'property is theft.' What this means is that capitalism itself is a gigantic sytem designed to allow one class to steal the time and labour of the working class




hahaha hehehe hohoho

So, let's try to live in a communist country and watch economic output and material wealth for everybody plummet.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #7421198 - 09/17/07 08:07 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

YawningAnus said:
I just find that it is an attitude like the one the thread starter has that is wrong with this country, and probably a few other countries.

They want to claim PLUR but they are really just looking out for number one.




:thumbup:

People like this claim enlightenment and "disgust with the way things are" and use these things as justification to mooch and steal because they are lazy wastes.  :shrug:


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Offlinekotik
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #7421208 - 09/17/07 08:10 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

wooo fuck YA stealing.

I wouldn't condone it for a mom @ pop shop, or a local franchise, etc. but for walmart or target or kmart or etc. fuck it!

unload that shit by the truck if you can.


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: kotik]
    #7421221 - 09/17/07 08:13 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Stealing is stealing.  :shrug:  Whether you take from a rich man or a poor man it's still theft.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #7421241 - 09/17/07 08:19 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
Quote:

SlvrZeta said:
3) Life is expensive as it is. How is it fair that the proletariat earn a shitty wage like $7.50/hr -- year after year -- when inflation is a constant battle?




Because their labor isn't worth much. Running a cash register isn't difficult and thus it isn't valuable.




They should be happy that they have not been replaced by a machine yet.


Edited by MushmanTheManic (09/17/07 08:24 PM)


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #7421249 - 09/17/07 08:23 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

They already are being replaced by machines.

And I'm sorry...but if you do some job that requires no skill and that is very easy you aren't going to earn much money at it. 

Maybe people who work shit jobs shouldn't have four kids that they can't afford to aupport or maybe they should learn to live within their means.  :shrug:


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #7421272 - 09/17/07 08:27 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Sure, then would you agree that colonization is stealing? Would you agree that the European imperialism resulted in the theft of a vast tracts of land? Because this theft was the engine of the development of capitalism, theft is it's very heart and soul. If it's wrong to steal dinner, than it's wrong to steal native land... If 'stealing is stealing' and it's unconditionally 'wrong' than the entire premise of the capitalist system is wrong. If the entire premise of the capitalist system is wrong than it's morally correct to attack it, or at least expropriate a tiny piece what was stolen from us in the first place. :shrug:


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #7421287 - 09/17/07 08:29 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Just curious....
Have you ever used bootleg/hacked software, downloaded "illegal" music or other media....?

Just wondering if/how the relative "ease" of pushing buttons to steal and a lower "risk" factor plays a role in all of this....    :wink:
Morality is a bitch, especially if you don't agree with the "norm"....


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7421296 - 09/17/07 08:31 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

What was stolen from you?


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7421297 - 09/17/07 08:31 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

NiamhNyx said:
Sure, then would you agree that colonization is stealing? Would you agree that the European imperialism resulted in the theft of a vast tracts of land?




Initially it did. But, that land has been given back to indigenous peoples. India rules itself. Pakistan rules itself. The African nations rule themselves(or at least they try to). etc..etc..

Quote:

NiamhNyx said:
If 'stealing is stealing' and it's unconditionally 'wrong' than the entire premise of the capitalist system is wrong.





Capitalism does not have to entail colonialism and imperialism. A free market can exist without such infractions. And as I said, the native peoples now rule themselves and the European empires have relinquished such imperialistic exercises.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #7421307 - 09/17/07 08:33 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

PhanTomCat said:
Just curious....
Have you ever used bootleg/hacked software, downloaded "illegal" music or other media....?

Just wondering if/how the relative "ease" of pushing buttons to steal and a lower "risk" factor plays a role in all of this....    :wink:
Morality is a bitch, especially if you don't agree with the "norm"....





A long long time ago I used a pirated version of Windows 98.  Since then no.  I have bought all of my CD's, movies, and computer software.


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #7421310 - 09/17/07 08:33 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
They already are being replaced by machines.

And I'm sorry...but if you do some job that requires no skill and that is very easy you aren't going to earn much money at it. 

Maybe people who work shit jobs shouldn't have four kids that they can't afford to aupport or maybe they should learn to live within their means.  :shrug:




Have you ever tried to pay $600+ rent per month on $4-5 an hour? Or even $500 on $8 an hour... (plus food, utilities, transportation, utilitarian needs such as basic shoes and clothing fit to wear to your shitty job...)Please give this a shot and let me know how it works out for you.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7421319 - 09/17/07 08:37 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

NiamhNyx said:
Have you ever tried to pay $600+ rent per month on $4-5 an hour? Or even $500 on $8 an hour... (plus food, utilities, transportation, utilitarian needs such as basic shoes and clothing fit to wear to your shitty job...)




Get a roommate.  :shrug:

The minimum wage is $5.75 I believe and it is being raised nationwide to $7 something in the next few years.  And yes, I have been poor before.  I have been to the point where I weighed 115 pounds, my apartment's heat was set at 50 in the middle of the winter, and I had nothing.  I still refuse to blame some "corporation" for my meager surroundings nor will I mooch off of the government or other people.  I have too much pride and I will support myself without thieving from society.


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7421330 - 09/17/07 08:39 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

NiamhNyx said:
Have you ever tried to pay $600+ rent per month on $4-5 an hour? Or even $500 on $8 an hour... (plus food, utilities, transportation, utilitarian needs such as basic shoes and clothing fit to wear to your shitty job...)Please give this a shot and let me know how it works out for you.





Yes, going thru school - for 3 years....
Roommates were key, and a necessity for living that lifestyle....
Worked at a restaurant, solved half of the food problem - the other half was Faygo pop, pot pies, mac'n cheese, etc etc....
And we car-pooled....

You can make due without stealing just fine if you put your mind to it....


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #7421333 - 09/17/07 08:40 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

You mean survival takes effort? No!! That's totally unfair.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #7421338 - 09/17/07 08:42 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Yeah, wtf. Isn't everyone supposed to be rich and happy all the time?


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Shoplifting can be morally right. [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #7421349 - 09/17/07 08:43 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)


(you said)
Initially it did. But, that land has been given back to indigenous peoples. India rules itself. Pakistan rules itself. The African nations rule themselves(or at least they try to). etc..etc..


Response: Interesting. How about Canada, the United States, Mexico, South America, much of the South Pacific, etc.. etc...



(you said) Capitalism does not have to entail colonialism and imperialism. A free market can exist without such infractions. And as I said, the native peoples now rule themselves and the European empires have relinquished such imperialistic exercises.


Response: As I already pointed out, entire continents are still colonized and will continue to be colonized in perpetuity. The free market never could have developed to the extent it did without Imperialism. Yes, the days of European Imperialism have come to a close (for many reasons, mainly because there is absolutely nowhere left to lay claim to,) but this does not negate the fact that the development of Capitalism required the wholesale theft of half of the planet. The essence of capitalism is theft. This is my point, you clearly do not deny it. My argument is that, if this premise is true, then it is ridiculous to believe that it is morally wrong to steal from a corporation. If Capital is theft, then expropriation is a natural and proper balancing mechanism.


Edited by NiamhNyx (09/17/07 08:46 PM)


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