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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
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Loc: Under the C
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Native American Medicine
#7415490 - 09/16/07 04:58 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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For once, let's bypass how they got where they are today and the 'evil White man'.
If their shamans and ancient medicine are so powerful and actually work, why are their communities struggling with alcoholism, illiteracy and poverty? Is not The Great Spirit more powerful than circumstance?
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Middleman

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
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"Hmmn, what can we shit all over and piss on today?"
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Locus




Registered: 03/11/04
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You cant just bypass that, thats the reason why.
middleman:
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The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing. One cannot help but be in awe when he contemplates the mysteries of eternity, of life, of the marvelous structure of reality. It is enough if one tries merely to comprehend a little of this mystery every day. Never lose a holy curiosity. ~ Albert Einstein "Fear is the great barrier to human growth." ~ Dr. Robert Monroe ~~~*Dosis sola facit venenum*~~~ *Check my profile to listen to my music*
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: Locus]
#7415628 - 09/16/07 06:53 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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So the whole 'victim' thread meant nothing and your past forever defines who you are and one is powerless to change it? Is that your stance?
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs




Registered: 10/08/02
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I would agree and say the same goes for the Christian beliefs allowing Rome to fall to barbarians, the Muslim beliefs allowing the Middle East to be subjugated, and the Jewish beliefs to allow the Holocaust to occur.
Middleman: Why post if you have nothing substantive to add? This isn't MR&P.
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Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate



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This thread seems pretty bigoted to me. There are many, many American Indian tribes in the U.S., Mexico, and Canada, all of whom have different practices and medicines and many of whom have given up old customs and ways of healings in favor of whatever the state is providing. Blanket statements cannot be made about the efficacy of "Native Americans'" techniques. Also, alcoholism, illiteracy, and poverty were not problems which any tribes had to deal with before Europeans came to the Americas.
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: Lion]
#7415936 - 09/16/07 08:49 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Also, alcoholism, illiteracy, and poverty were not problems which any tribes had to deal with before Europeans came to the Americas.
In order: Right, wrong and wrong.
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Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate



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Just because there was no literacy, doesn't mean illiteracy was a problem. Written language was something that was not needed.
And maybe scarcity of resources was a problem for many tribes - but what does that have to do with shamans and medicine anyway??
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: Lion]
#7415982 - 09/16/07 09:02 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
And maybe scarcity of resources was a problem for many tribes...
Is that not poverty?
You keep dancing around my question, why is a medicine man or shaman, who allegedly is in contact with the Great Spirit, unable to bring about any real change?
One more time and I will be forced to invoke the Icelander Ruling.
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Perhaps there is no Great Spirit, and life is just a series of experiences?
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: Veritas]
#7416034 - 09/16/07 09:24 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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HERETIC!
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: If their shamans and ancient medicine are so powerful and actually work, why are their communities struggling with alcoholism, illiteracy and poverty? Is not The Great Spirit more powerful than circumstance?
Could you be any more vauge? Why doesn't modern medicine prevent communities from struggling with alcoholism, illiteracy, and poverty? What understanding are you attempting to convey?
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: Middleman]
#7416118 - 09/16/07 10:10 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Middleman said: "Hmmn, what can we shit all over and piss on today?"
Discussion in this forum is centered around the ideas being presented for discussion, and not personalisms.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'


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Let's start from the beginning, with the colonial experience. You can't separate the present from the past and so I'm going into it whether you like it or not. Here in BC, where I live, there were gunboats up and down the coast demolishing villages at whim. There were 'gifts' of blankets infected with smallpox. There was forced assimilation in the form of Residential Schools where native kids were forced to give up thier culture - speaking one's native tongue, telling thier own stories, etc were against the rules. Many many of them were raped by priests and most of them were severely beaten more or less regularly. I've heard stories of fathers going to jail for 6 months of every year as punishment for withholding thier kids from residential school. The Potlatch was banned. I could go on and on and on but I think we have the point here.
If your entire community was utterly destroyed, first by guns and disease, and then by forced assimilation, families split up, people forced to be ashamed of thier own culture... do you really think that you would come out of such an experience whole and undamaged?
Your question is utterly ridiculous because you suggest that the social issues faced by indigenous people somehow reflect a failing of thier culture. There is a pretty fucking massive difference between a culture failing due to its own weaknesses, and a deliberate and long-term genocide destroying people physically, emotionally and spiritually. I really suggest doing a little bit of research into what colonization really was before embarrassing yourself with such ignorant, inane bullshit. Few things make me as angry as settlers repeating ignorant, oppressive garbage about indigenous people who's land they live on due to genocide.
Edited by NiamhNyx (09/16/07 01:03 PM)
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'


Registered: 09/01/02
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: So the whole 'victim' thread meant nothing and your past forever defines who you are and one is powerless to change it? Is that your stance?
No. There are many indigenous people today struggling to reclaim culture and landbases. The Zapatistas, The Mohawks (Oka, the recent rebellions in Kahnesatake and Kahnewake,) The struggle against ski resort development in traditional territory at places like Sutikalh, Bear Mountain and Sunpeaks. There are also many people who are relearning thier languages just as the last speakers are getting old enough to die with the knowledge. Much knowledge remains, much has been lost. Many people are doing what they can to reclaim it.
You seem to cling to the popular and false notion that all natives are drunk, broken victims. So many people are strong, healthy and doing incredible work to overcome the legacy of colonization. If you pulled your head out of your ass and actually did some research (or talked to a native person...) you might discover this for yourself. Was that a personalism? Oops.
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Kinematics
coyote vision


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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: For once, let's bypass how they got where they are today and the 'evil White man'.
If their shamans and ancient medicine are so powerful and actually work, why are their communities struggling with alcoholism, illiteracy and poverty? Is not The Great Spirit more powerful than circumstance?
Because all humans are fallible.
Christians frequently speak of tests. "God is testing you." Well, I believe that we are all constantly being tested, our personal values, our faith, et cetera.. and it is really up to us, and not god, whether we can propel ourselves through the challenge adequately.
Edited by Kinematics (09/16/07 02:09 PM)
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jonathanseagull
Cool!


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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: Kinematics]
#7416725 - 09/16/07 02:10 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I don't see how a Shaman is supposed to materialize resources (poverty), teach people to write (illiteracy), nor change the will power of an individual (alcoholism). This thread is pointless.
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Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.
Edited by jonathanseagull (09/16/07 02:11 PM)
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'


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Quote:
jonathanseagull said: I don't see how a Shaman is supposed to materialize resources (poverty), teach people to write (illiteracy), nor change the will power of an individual (alcoholism). This thread is pointless.
...and this right here tidily wraps things up... why didn't I say this?
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Diploid
Cuban



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Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: Kinematics]
#7416794 - 09/16/07 02:31 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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and it is really up to us, and not god, whether we can propel ourselves through the challenge adequately.
Then what the fuck is God good for?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: Diploid]
#7416806 - 09/16/07 02:36 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Religion
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Kinematics
coyote vision


Registered: 10/01/06
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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: Diploid]
#7417006 - 09/16/07 04:09 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: and it is really up to us, and not god, whether we can propel ourselves through the challenge adequately.
Then what the fuck is God good for?
God, or whatever you would like to call it, is to me just a kid with an antfarm.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7417265 - 09/16/07 05:16 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Your question is utterly ridiculous because you suggest that the social issues faced by indigenous people somehow reflect a failing of thier culture.
If a species is wiped out, it certainly reflects a failing on their ability to survive.
"Well, if the polar bears weren't so mean and nasty..." 
Same goes with tribes. The stronger survives. Sorry, NN, but I didn't invent the evolutionary rules nor kill any Injuns, so your anger is misplaced.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7417284 - 09/16/07 05:21 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Here in BC, where I live, there were gunboats up and down the coast demolishing villages at whim.
Simple question, let's see if I can get a straight answer:
Did Native Americans ever raid other tribes, savagely kill members, steal their food, hides & horses and kidnap and rape their women? YES or NO.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7417317 - 09/16/07 05:34 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
You seem to cling to the popular and false notion that all natives are drunk, broken victims.
Your emotionalism is showing. I never said 'all'. Exaggeration through misquoting is a sure sign that you do not fully believe what you are saying. The truth never needs shoring up.
The 'popular notion' that Indians suffer alcoholism at a far greater rate than other groups is certainly true.
alcoholism and minorities
"Although highly variable among tribes, alcohol abuse is a factor in five leading causes of death for American Indians, including motor vehicle crashes, alcoholism, cirrhosis, suicide, and homicide. Mortality rates for crashes and alcoholism are 5.5 and 3.8 times higher, respectively, among American Indians than among the general population. Among tribes with high rates of alcoholism, reports estimate that 75 percent of all accidents, the leading cause of death among American Indians, are alcohol related."
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OrgoneConclusion
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Quote:
Could you be any more vauge?
I could try. As I know you would not use sarcasm, I shall take this as an encouragment to be even more murky in future threads.
Quote:
Why doesn't modern medicine prevent communities from struggling with alcoholism, illiteracy, and poverty?
Because modern medicine is a result of studying cause and affect (science) and makes no pretenses to be able to elicit tribal guidance from the Great Spirit as NA Medicine Men do.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Note: I am part Iroquois and have worked up a mighty, mighty thirst after all that typing.
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'


Registered: 09/01/02
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
Your question is utterly ridiculous because you suggest that the social issues faced by indigenous people somehow reflect a failing of thier culture.
If a species is wiped out, it certainly reflects a failing on their ability to survive.
"Well, if the polar bears weren't so mean and nasty..." 
Same goes with tribes. The stronger survives. Sorry, NN, but I didn't invent the evolutionary rules nor kill any Injuns, so your anger is misplaced.
So, you are a proponent of Social Darwinism? Interesting. Social Darwinism is the same ideology that argues to justify a hierarchy of race. 'Blacks are poor because they are evolutionarily inferior.' It is the ideology that became eugenics. Social Darwinism is a disgusting, racist convulution of Darwin's theory of evolution.
There is an incredibly vast difference between utilizing the resources and territory one's group needs to survive and defending said territory, and a deliberate campaign of imperialism which entails brutally exterminating all human groups one comes in contact with- voraciously exploiting anything one can grasp. It is utterly ridiculous to compare a polar bear with an Empire.
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lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
Stranger

Registered: 12/16/04
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Mod Edit: C'mon. You know better than to flame in here. Please don't do it again.
Edited by Diploid (09/16/07 07:49 PM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Is not The Great Spirit more powerful than circumstance?
No.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
Stranger

Registered: 12/16/04
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Loc: Texas
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: If their shamans and ancient medicine are so powerful and actually work, why are their communities struggling with alcoholism, illiteracy and poverty? Is not The Great Spirit more powerful than circumstance?
Lets start with the dene indians which I'm most familiar with.
They were nomadic stone age hunters until around 1950, at which point the government forced them to live in settlements. These are guys who travelled all over the barrens on foot and hunted with spears.
So first of all they never lived in groups much greater than 10 individuals and didn't have the social skills nessecary to live in a large settlement.
Then most of the childred were taken to residential schools where they were forced to speak english and accept a new religion. In addition to this most were abused physically, as well as being basically abducted from their parents.
Recently a huge billion dollar settlement was made where every one of those residential school students was paid around 22 grand.
So you have stone age people with no social skills... forced to live in settlements where there is no economic potential at all. And they get enough food and money to survive without working. Wonder why they have these problems of suicide and alcoholism?
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'


Registered: 09/01/02
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
Here in BC, where I live, there were gunboats up and down the coast demolishing villages at whim.
Simple question, let's see if I can get a straight answer:
Did Native Americans ever raid other tribes, savagely kill members, steal their food, hides & horses and kidnap and rape their women? YES or NO.
Did Indigenous people ever colonize an entire continent (or many continents, for the sake of accurate comparison,) wiping out hundreds if not thousands of cultures and assimilating the few survivors through means of torture? Did they claim a right to exploit the resources of the land of these conquered peoples into utter depletion, thus threatening the prospects of any of us living anywhere on the planet?
I am not even remotely trying to say that indigenous people everywhere are perfect happy rainbow people that spend all day dancing on clouds, eating cotton candy and playing with kitty cats. I am simply saying that nothing compares to the Imperialism of Europe, that genocide cannot be explained in terms of 'evolution,' and that the terms of your argument are totally falseminded.
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'


Registered: 09/01/02
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Quote:
adjust said:
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: If their shamans and ancient medicine are so powerful and actually work, why are their communities struggling with alcoholism, illiteracy and poverty? Is not The Great Spirit more powerful than circumstance?
Lets start with the dene indians which I'm most familiar with.
They were nomadic stone age hunters until around 1950, at which point the government forced them to live in settlements. These are guys who travelled all over the barrens on foot and hunted with spears.
So first of all they never lived in groups much greater than 10 individuals and didn't have the social skills nessecary to live in a large settlement.
Then most of the childred were taken to residential schools where they were forced to speak english and accept a new religion. In addition to this most were abused physically, as well as being basically abducted from their parents.
Recently a huge billion dollar settlement was made where every one of those residential school students was paid around 22 grand.
So you have stone age people with no social skills... forced to live in settlements where there is no economic potential at all. And they get enough food and money to survive without working. Wonder why they have these problems of suicide and alcoholism?
The only complaint I have with this is the social skills thing... it isn't about having social skills or not. Many groups thrown in residential school lived in dense settlements (coastal peoples, for example.) The process fucked everyone, whether they were a band or a chiefdom based society...
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7417690 - 09/16/07 07:51 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Before I respond, can we be clear, as I do not want to make an assumption on your POV. Was that a YES or a NO to my simple question?
One word will do.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: For once, let's bypass how they got where they are today and the 'evil White man'.
If their shamans and ancient medicine are so powerful and actually work, why are their communities struggling with alcoholism, illiteracy and poverty? Is not The Great Spirit more powerful than circumstance?
Here's what I really think. These early on Shaman were pioneers and therefore only made the first step in cosmic awareness and spiritual power. Maybe we've made one more step since then. Maybe not. Maybe there is nothing to this shit and maybe there is. It's way too soon to tell.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
Stranger

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 11,123
Loc: Texas
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Did Native Americans ever raid other tribes, savagely kill members, steal their food, hides & horses and kidnap and rape their women? YES or NO.
YES
Look dude I've read the samuel hern diary (though it is in old english and a bit hard to understant) it shows the brutality and merciless nature of some native americans towards outsiders.
What is your point? Because they did it, then that means it's okay for europeans to do it too? And you're not part iroquois you fucking dope, you weren't raised iroquois.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
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Quote:
What is your point? Because they did it, then that means it's okay for europeans to do it too?
My point is that both Europeans and Native Americans have committed atrocious acts. The Europeans did more damage because of more advanced weapons and superior numbers not because they were more evil.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
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And just because the idiots do it in OTD does that make it OK for you to flame people that push your many buttons?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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adjust, stop flaming. I'm not telling you again.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
Stranger

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 11,123
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How do you know this?
You know orgone it seems to me you really are clueless on this issue.
I suggest you make a new troll thread.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
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And yet another personalism.!
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: Icelander]
#7417762 - 09/16/07 08:09 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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He's been banned.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Quote:
How do you know this?
By this, you are referring to 'evil'?
I know that killing five people is not more evil than killing four; it is merely more ambitious.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: Diploid]
#7417770 - 09/16/07 08:12 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: He's been banned.
Not sad. Happy daze.:D
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Quote:
I don't see how a Shaman is supposed to materialize resources ...
Have you read the Shamans' User Guide?
The Great Spirit created all things.
The Shaman is a conduit to the Great Spirit for his people.
The Great Spirit hears any earnest request and provides guidance for ALL problems large & small.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7417881 - 09/16/07 08:48 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
I am not even remotely trying to say that indigenous people everywhere are perfect happy rainbow people that spend all day dancing on clouds, eating cotton candy and playing with kitty cats.
What other (orgone) conclusion could I come to?
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'


Registered: 09/01/02
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
I don't see how a Shaman is supposed to materialize resources ...
Have you read the Shamans' User Guide?
The Great Spirit created all things.
The Shaman is a conduit to the Great Spirit for his people.
The Great Spirit hears any earnest request and provides guidance for ALL problems large & small.
Do you think that the 'shaman's user guide' is even remotely representative of all native cultures? I think it's pretty important to note that there were many, many distinct cultures in north and south america, some of which believed in a concept like the great spirit, others which did not. the 'shaman's user guide' sounds like a hokey piece of trash if you ask me. There is a lot more to understanding the complexities of a culture's mythos and religion than reading some extremely generalized schlock written for white hippies. Come on Orgone, I'd expect some more legit sources from a critical thinker like you...
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7418021 - 09/16/07 09:31 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
think it's pretty important to note that there were many, many distinct cultures in north and south america
Of course. NI tribes are not one people, however even you have grouped them.
Back to Thread topic: Why are shamans so ineffectual (in tribes where shamans are an integral part of tribal life) in helping with real-world problems?
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Lion
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The statement, 'Shamans are ineffectual at dealing with real-world problems', is a statement that you can't prove. How do you know that there are not thousands of shamans in the world who are good healers and who affect positive change for their people? Have you been to Oaxaca, the inner Amazon, the N'doki? Until you provide hard evidence that all shamans, or even a majority, are ineffectual, how can the question you've posed be debated? This will mean, on your end, doing some research on many, many peoples and the wide varieties of roles which 'shamans' (a name which is about as good as 'witch-doctors' in terms of blanket accuracy) play in their societies, the beliefs behind the shamans' practices, and the efficacy of their specific methods.
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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Archemetis
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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: Lion]
#7419044 - 09/17/07 08:31 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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we're all playing with the cards we'v been dealt. shaman is not synonomous with god or omnipotent. there are many factors in a mans life that lead to his success or failure if such extremes exist on ones spiritual path. one such factor would be that one only has the power to effect his own inner essence. you cant give strength to anothers spirit without cooperation from all involved.
it seems black elk felt at the end of his life that he failed his people. i tend to think it was the people who failed him.
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Archemetis
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OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
Back to Thread topic: Why are shamans so ineffectual (in tribes where shamans are an integral part of tribal life) in helping with real-world problems?
because the problems of the real world are generated by people unwilling to work out or even acknowledge these problems. and because shamans too have problems of their own that demand their attention.
Edited by Archemetis (09/17/07 08:37 AM)
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Kinematics
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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: Archemetis]
#7419103 - 09/17/07 08:58 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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This just seems like a thread to discredit shamanism and native American spirituality to me.
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Archemetis
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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: Kinematics]
#7419109 - 09/17/07 09:02 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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this is an orgone thread
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: Kinematics]
#7419233 - 09/17/07 10:18 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kinematics said: This just seems like a thread to discredit shamanism and native American spirituality to me.
'White culture' very few, if any shamans - quite successful in the material world.
NI culture as a whole, more shamans - less successful in the material world.
Do you agree or disagree with this base assessment?
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fireworks_god
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Success being defined, of course, by the "White culture" world.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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MushroomTrip
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And Yosemite Sam 
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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NiamhNyx
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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7420869 - 09/17/07 06:30 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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OrgoneConclusion
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Quote:
fireworks_god said: Success being defined, of course, by the "White culture" world.
I suppose you could play word games and say short lifespans, high infant mortality, poverty, high suicide and alcoholism rates are 'success' indicators in non-white culture, but I would have to disagree.
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Kinematics
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
Kinematics said: This just seems like a thread to discredit shamanism and native American spirituality to me.
'White culture' very few, if any shamans - quite successful in the material world.
NI culture as a whole, more shamans - less successful in the material world.
Do you agree or disagree with this base assessment?
Perhaps by your own definition, Native culture is the 'winner' in that regard being as they aren't as tied to material possessions and 'success' as those in contemporary western culture.
This is all a little too much of an apples-oranges comparison, anyway.
Edited by Kinematics (09/18/07 12:45 AM)
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fireworks_god
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: I suppose you could play word games and say short lifespans, high infant mortality, poverty, high suicide and alcoholism rates are 'success' indicators in non-white culture, but I would have to disagree.
So, we aren't speaking anymore of "culture", but now race? I believe race is how these statistics you refer to are determined... Holding this specific race's culture responsible makes no sense, as their culture has already been decimated. The foundation of Native American culture cannot exist, as it is a life that can no longer be lived, due to the genocide and colonization of North America.
These facts have nothing to do with culture, and everything to do with the effects of the Indo-Ayran presence on this continent. Native Americans never had much material existance, in the eyes of the culture that ethnically cleansed their populations, and we certainly haven't given them much opportunity for them to assimilate. The opportunity for them to do so has been there for the last few decades, but is the opportunity for them to realize it as prevalent? Is this a failure of personal responsibility? I personally realize that every individual is responsible for themself, but not everyone realizes this, or has much of a means to begin that path.
Collective consciousness and the economic surroundings of the lands that Native Americans were forced onto have their toll, after all. Murder most of the population of a civilization, take away the well-being and source of livelihood of those who remain, partition them away into camps, and provide little opportunity for them to generate resources for themselves. It doesn't exactly sound like a formula that will promote "success".
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Kinematics
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: I suppose you could play word games and say short lifespans, high infant mortality, poverty, high suicide and alcoholism rates are 'success' indicators in non-white culture, but I would have to disagree.
So, we aren't speaking anymore of "culture", but now race? I believe race is how these statistics you refer to are determined... Holding this specific race's culture responsible makes no sense, as their culture has already been decimated. The foundation of Native American culture cannot exist, as it is a life that can no longer be lived, due to the genocide and colonization of North America.
These facts have nothing to do with culture, and everything to do with the effects of the Indo-Ayran presence on this continent. Native Americans never had much material existance, in the eyes of the culture that ethnically cleansed their populations, and we certainly haven't given them much opportunity for them to assimilate. The opportunity for them to do so has been there for the last few decades, but is the opportunity for them to realize it as prevalent? Is this a failure of personal responsibility? I personally realize that every individual is responsible for themself, but not everyone realizes this, or has much of a means to begin that path.
Collective consciousness and the economic surroundings of the lands that Native Americans were forced onto have their toll, after all. Murder most of the population of a civilization, take away the well-being and source of livelihood of those who remain, partition them away into camps, and provide little opportunity for them to generate resources for themselves. It doesn't exactly sound like a formula that will promote "success".
Good post. In addition, not all native Americans wish to integrate themselves with western civilization, they just want to live the same way they have for thousands of years. How exactly then, can you compare their culture with ours in terms of success? There's two entirely different goals here.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Quote:
...every individual is responsible for themself...
"Every individual" includes those who have suffered hardships, does it not? Otherwise your premise would be "some individuals are responsible for themselves".
FWG speak with forked tongue. You cannot logically argue it both ways.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: Kinematics]
#7422292 - 09/18/07 02:37 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
they just want to live the same way they have for thousands of years.
Change happens. Denying current reality and longing for the past is not a healthy spiritual attitude.
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Kinematics
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
they just want to live the same way they have for thousands of years.
Change happens. Denying current reality and longing for the past is not a healthy spiritual attitude.
Well good thing you're not the ultimate authority when it comes to spirituality, otherwise we'd all be in deep shit.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: Kinematics]
#7422466 - 09/18/07 05:50 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Well good thing you're not the ultimate authority when it comes to spirituality, otherwise we'd all be in deep shit.
Of course not - don't be silly!
The ultimate authority (or teacher) is suffering. It tells us our attitude regarding something is wrong. It clearly points to where we are clinging and not surrendering.
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fireworks_god
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: "Every individual" includes those who have suffered hardships, does it not? Otherwise your premise would be "some individuals are responsible for themselves".
Clearly it does, yet that doesn't mean that every individual assumes responsibility for themself subsequently, nor does it mean that every individual assumes responsibility for themself by acting in a certain manner. While the truth is that every individual is responsible for themself, it clearly does not extend that every individual realizes this and acts in accordance with this, and the realization is not one that one can instantly attain.
I'm still not understanding how it was a failure of Native American culture that is responsible for their current, generalized state of affairs. We can clearly see the cirumstances which have brought them to this point in time, living in poverty. Awareness arrives through circumstance - not everyone finds a deeper understanding of reality, not everyone realizes their responsibility for themselves.
Most people suffer and do not realize they are the cause of their own suffering, yet it doesn't change the truth that they are. Observing what has happened and understanding why things are now the way they are now is not arguing it both ways. I am responsible for myself, yet I obviously have not always realized this or acted in accordance with it. Circumstance brings oneself to the realization, time and thought and experience, and I, conviently enough, did not inherit an impoverished life resulting from genocide and being contained.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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OrgoneConclusion
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So the state of a people is in no way linked to the efficacy of it's spiritual leadership?
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fireworks_god
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No, it is not, and in this case, this spirituality was based upon their way of life, which was completely removed from them.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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OrgoneConclusion
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Quote:
No, it is not...
So the shaman is superfluous then?
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Taharka
The Root of the Problem

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Quote:
The ultimate authority (or teacher) is suffering. It tells us our attitude regarding something is wrong. It clearly points to where we are clinging and not surrendering.
Right, because no one has ever suffered through no fault of their own. Native Americans were destroyed by firearms and foreign diseases because their attitudes about the whole thing were wrong.
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fireworks_god
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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: Taharka]
#7422648 - 09/18/07 07:53 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I'm not sure, as that would lie dependent upon what a shaman is, and what need they are intended to fufill. Not enough information regarding shamanism has been provided in this thread to be able to speculate on the matter, and I am not adept in regards to shamanism.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: Taharka]
#7423759 - 09/18/07 01:22 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Native Americans were destroyed by firearms and foreign diseases because their attitudes about the whole thing were wrong.
This is a classic strawman argument and has nothing to do with what I said. Try again.
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Middleman

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My grandma was a full blooded Chippewa, she lived to 102, and her teas beat any cold medicine.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: Middleman]
#7423803 - 09/18/07 01:33 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Interesting non sequitur.
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Icelander
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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: Middleman]
#7423808 - 09/18/07 01:34 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Granny from the Beverley Hillbilly's had a cold cure that worked every time. You take it and in two weeks to a month your cold was gone. It was amazing.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OrgoneConclusion
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Quote:
Not enough information regarding shamanism has been provided in this thread to be able to speculate on the matter,
I suppose you could say that about every single word used on any post. Try www.dictioniary.com.
sha·man /ˈʃɑmən, ˈʃeɪ-, ˈʃæmən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[shah-muhn, shey-, sham-uhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun (esp. among certain tribal peoples) a person who acts as intermediary between the natural and supernatural worlds, using magic to cure illness, foretell the future, control spiritual forces, etc.
Alcoholism is an illness. As it is extraordinarily high in Native pople's as a generalized whole, then it stands to reason, that the shaman is doing a poor job in curing said illness. Logic 101, baby!
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Icelander
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My question would be as it would be with any medical practitioner. Does the individual actually go to the shaman and if so does he follow the shamans advice?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: Icelander]
#7423862 - 09/18/07 01:48 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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However one chooses to explain it, the fact remains that it isn't working.
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Icelander
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It could be working for individuals and maybe this has always been the case. It's just that when the culture was in jeopardy from encroachment from whitey it became more apparent that ignoring the shaman has disastrous results.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Taharka
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Quote:
The ultimate authority (or teacher) is suffering. It tells us our attitude regarding something is wrong. It clearly points to where we are clinging and not surrendering.
My point was that the above is bullshit. It has everything to do with what you said, as you said it. It was not a strawman for your arguments against shamanism. Suffering does not tell us that our attitude regarding something is wrong, because our attitude is often not the source of suffering. An individual's actions are not always the source of his suffering, and sometimes there is nothing he can do to change his circumstances.
As far as the topic at hand, what are you getting at? Your first post reads as though Native Americans have made some claim that they are now responsible for proving to you. Are you saying that the great spirit does not exist? That shamanism is ineffectual compared to Western medicine? The same could be said of countless other religions - does the Christian god exist, and is he any better at healing his followers' ailments? The beliefs of those who attribute powers to non-observable things like gods and spirits might not stand up to scientific scrutingy, but the believers usually don't mind. And, Great Spirit or no, shamanistic ritual and medicine can have an effect, whether it is through the power of the mind that you emphasize so much, or the pharmacological properties of say Mescaline. Or is this an attack on Native Americans because of the role they occupy in our society today? Their traditional culture and beliefs, having failed to "save" them from Eastern invasion, are worthless compared to ours?
If the answers to the questions in the opening post were No and No, what then?
Edited by Taharka (09/18/07 10:54 PM)
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fireworks_god
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: I suppose you could say that about every single word used on any post. Try www.dictioniary.com.
I tried www.dictioniary.com, but, for some strange reason, it didn't work.
As a matter of fact, I did pull up the dictionary's definition of shaman. Within the context of this thread, it did not reveal enough information regarding your perspective on the matter to be of any use. I was not simply interested in knowing the dictionary definition, but actual information concerning their role and their responsibility for the statistical data cited.
Essentially, your conclusion that, if these conditions are in existance, then shamanism doesn't work, is completely unfounded. There isn't enough information in that conclusion for it to pretend to represent the nature of reality.
Quote:
Alcoholism is an illness. As it is extraordinarily high in Native pople's as a generalized whole, then it stands to reason, that the shaman is doing a poor job in curing said illness. Logic 101, baby!
Precisely; Logic 101, but making an if/then statement doesn't substantiate truth.
It could just as easily be proposed that these conditions have arisen, not due to the fault of these shamans, whoever they may be and whatever their nature is (who knows, after all.... nothing of substance regarding them has been proposed in this thread ), but because they are outnumbered by the existance of medevial Druids, who work to counter the shaman's magick. Such a conclusion is just as founded. Everyone knows that medevial Druids, after all, are more successful. The fact that the Indo-Aryans ethnically cleansed most of the Native American population left too few shamans to continue the defense of the onslaught of the medevial Druid magick.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Kinematics
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Well, we can always twist this logic around another way.
Christianity isn't the solver of all of western civilization's problems either. In fact, I would say it is the perpetrator of 99% of them. So in that regard, I would consider shamanism and native American spirituality a success, in that it isn't to blame for the furthering of native's problems.
I mean, if it makes a good thread for orgone we can all twist words and logic around all day.
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fireworks_god
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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: Kinematics]
#7427297 - 09/19/07 09:02 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Modern medicine is very advanced, yet look at the overwhelming prevalence of heart disease, obesity, psychological disorders... As these diseases are quite prominent in modern civilization, then it stands to reason that the modern medical community is doing a poor job in curing these serious, life-threatening diseases.
There you have it, ladies and gentlemen... modern medicine debunked.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Icelander
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I couldn't agree more. Modern medicine with it's mono focus on treating symptoms without looking for underlying causes has, IMO, failed miserably in treating disease. They are pretty good at physical trauma though.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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thedudenj
Man of the Woods

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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: For once, let's bypass how they got where they are today and the 'evil White man'.
If their shamans and ancient medicine are so powerful and actually work, why are their communities struggling with alcoholism, illiteracy and poverty? Is not The Great Spirit more powerful than circumstance?
they became early white man thats why but without money. im more a native then poeple that are far greater blood then me. its like saying american germans are real germans. if you not a native german your not, when i got to germany german people realize who i am and treat me amazing.
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