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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7422282 - 09/18/07 02:33 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

...every individual is responsible for themself...




"Every individual" includes those who have suffered hardships, does it not? Otherwise your premise would be "some individuals are responsible for themselves".

FWG speak with forked tongue. You cannot logically argue it both ways.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: Kinematics]
    #7422292 - 09/18/07 02:37 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

they just want to live the same way they have for thousands of years.




Change happens. Denying current reality and longing for the past is not a healthy spiritual attitude.


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OfflineKinematics
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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7422447 - 09/18/07 04:59 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

they just want to live the same way they have for thousands of years.




Change happens. Denying current reality and longing for the past is not a healthy spiritual attitude.




Well good thing you're not the ultimate authority when it comes to spirituality, otherwise we'd all be in deep shit. :lol:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: Kinematics]
    #7422466 - 09/18/07 05:50 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Well good thing you're not the ultimate authority when it comes to spirituality, otherwise we'd all be in deep shit.




Of course not - don't be silly!

The ultimate authority (or teacher) is suffering. It tells us our attitude regarding something is wrong. It clearly points to where we are clinging and not surrendering.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7422556 - 09/18/07 06:52 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
"Every individual" includes those who have suffered hardships, does it not? Otherwise your premise would be "some individuals are responsible for themselves".




Clearly it does, yet that doesn't mean that every individual assumes responsibility for themself subsequently, nor does it mean that every individual assumes responsibility for themself by acting in a certain manner. While the truth is that every individual is responsible for themself, it clearly does not extend that every individual realizes this and acts in accordance with this, and the realization is not one that one can instantly attain.

I'm still not understanding how it was a failure of Native American culture that is responsible for their current, generalized state of affairs. We can clearly see the cirumstances which have brought them to this point in time, living in poverty. Awareness arrives through circumstance - not everyone finds a deeper understanding of reality, not everyone realizes their responsibility for themselves.

Most people suffer and do not realize they are the cause of their own suffering, yet it doesn't change the truth that they are. Observing what has happened and understanding why things are now the way they are now is not arguing it both ways. I am responsible for myself, yet I obviously have not always realized this or acted in accordance with it. Circumstance brings oneself to the realization, time and thought and experience, and I, conviently enough, did not inherit an impoverished life resulting from genocide and being contained. :shrug:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7422572 - 09/18/07 07:00 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

So the state of a people is in no way linked to the efficacy of it's spiritual leadership?


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7422584 - 09/18/07 07:06 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

No, it is not, and in this case, this spirituality was based upon their way of life, which was completely removed from them. :shrug:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7422594 - 09/18/07 07:12 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

No, it is not...




So the shaman is superfluous then?


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InvisibleTaharka
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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7422636 - 09/18/07 07:46 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The ultimate authority (or teacher) is suffering. It tells us our attitude regarding something is wrong. It clearly points to where we are clinging and not surrendering.



Right, because no one has ever suffered through no fault of their own. Native Americans were destroyed by firearms and foreign diseases because their attitudes about the whole thing were wrong. :rolleyes:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: Taharka]
    #7422648 - 09/18/07 07:53 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I'm not sure, as that would lie dependent upon what a shaman is, and what need they are intended to fufill. Not enough information regarding shamanism has been provided in this thread to be able to speculate on the matter, and I am not adept in regards to shamanism.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: Taharka]
    #7423759 - 09/18/07 01:22 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Native Americans were destroyed by firearms and foreign diseases because their attitudes about the whole thing were wrong.




This is a classic strawman argument and has nothing to do with what I said. Try again.


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7423786 - 09/18/07 01:29 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

My grandma was a full blooded Chippewa, she lived to 102, and her teas beat any cold medicine. :shrug:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: Middleman]
    #7423803 - 09/18/07 01:33 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Interesting non sequitur.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: Middleman]
    #7423808 - 09/18/07 01:34 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Granny from the Beverley Hillbilly's had a cold cure that worked every time. You take it and in two weeks to a month your cold was gone. It was amazing.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7423829 - 09/18/07 01:41 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Not enough information regarding shamanism has been provided in this thread to be able to speculate on the matter,




I suppose you could say that about every single word used on any post. Try www.dictioniary.com.

sha·man /ˈʃɑmən, ˈʃeɪ-, ˈʃæmən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[shah-muhn, shey-, sham-uhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

–noun (esp. among certain tribal peoples) a person who acts as intermediary between the natural and supernatural worlds, using magic to cure illness, foretell the future, control spiritual forces, etc.


Alcoholism is an illness. As it is extraordinarily high in Native pople's as a generalized whole, then it stands to reason, that the shaman is doing a poor job in curing said illness. Logic 101, baby!


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7423847 - 09/18/07 01:45 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

My question would be as it would be with any medical practitioner. Does the individual actually go to the shaman and if so does he follow the shamans advice?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: Icelander]
    #7423862 - 09/18/07 01:48 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

However one chooses to explain it, the fact remains that it isn't working.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7423920 - 09/18/07 02:07 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

It could be working for individuals and maybe this has always been the case. It's just that when the culture was in jeopardy from encroachment from whitey it became more apparent that ignoring the shaman has disastrous results.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleTaharka
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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7424340 - 09/18/07 03:45 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The ultimate authority (or teacher) is suffering. It tells us our attitude regarding something is wrong. It clearly points to where we are clinging and not surrendering.




My point was that the above is bullshit. It has everything to do with what you said, as you said it. It was not a strawman for your arguments against shamanism. Suffering does not tell us that our attitude regarding something is wrong, because our attitude is often not the source of suffering. An individual's actions are not always the source of his suffering, and sometimes there is nothing he can do to change his circumstances.

As far as the topic at hand, what are you getting at? Your first post reads as though Native Americans have made some claim that they are now responsible for proving to you. Are you saying that the great spirit does not exist? That shamanism is ineffectual compared to Western medicine? The same could be said of countless other religions - does the Christian god exist, and is he any better at healing his followers' ailments? The beliefs of those who attribute powers to non-observable things like gods and spirits might not stand up to scientific scrutingy, but the believers usually don't mind. And, Great Spirit or no, shamanistic ritual and medicine can have an effect, whether it is through the power of the mind that you emphasize so much, or the pharmacological properties of say Mescaline.
Or is this an attack on Native Americans because of the role they occupy in our society today? Their traditional culture and beliefs, having failed to "save" them from Eastern invasion, are worthless compared to ours?

If the answers to the questions in the opening post were No and No, what then?


Edited by Taharka (09/18/07 10:54 PM)


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7427146 - 09/19/07 07:32 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
I suppose you could say that about every single word used on any post. Try www.dictioniary.com.




I tried www.dictioniary.com, but, for some strange reason, it didn't work. :strokebeard:

As a matter of fact, I did pull up the dictionary's definition of shaman. Within the context of this thread, it did not reveal enough information regarding your perspective on the matter to be of any use. I was not simply interested in knowing the dictionary definition, but actual information concerning their role and their responsibility for the statistical data cited.

Essentially, your conclusion that, if these conditions are in existance, then shamanism doesn't work, is completely unfounded. There isn't enough information in that conclusion for it to pretend to represent the nature of reality.

Quote:


Alcoholism is an illness. As it is extraordinarily high in Native pople's as a generalized whole, then it stands to reason, that the shaman is doing a poor job in curing said illness. Logic 101, baby!




Precisely; Logic 101, but making an if/then statement doesn't substantiate truth. :sorry:

It could just as easily be proposed that these conditions have arisen, not due to the fault of these shamans, whoever they may be and whatever their nature is (who knows, after all.... nothing of substance regarding them has been proposed in this thread :shrug:), but because they are outnumbered by the existance of medevial Druids, who work to counter the shaman's magick. Such a conclusion is just as founded. Everyone knows that medevial Druids, after all, are more successful. :smirk: The fact that the Indo-Aryans ethnically cleansed most of the Native American population left too few shamans to continue the defense of the onslaught of the medevial Druid magick. :frown:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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