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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Native American Medicine [Re: Icelander]
    #7417762 - 09/16/07 08:09 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

He's been banned. :sad:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
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Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
Re: Native American Medicine [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7417764 - 09/16/07 08:10 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

How do you know this?




By this, you are referring to 'evil'?

I know that killing five people is not more evil than killing four; it is merely more ambitious.


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Native American Medicine [Re: Diploid]
    #7417770 - 09/16/07 08:12 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
He's been banned. :sad:




Not sad. Happy daze.:D


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
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Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
Re: Native American Medicine [Re: jonathanseagull]
    #7417872 - 09/16/07 08:44 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

I don't see how a Shaman is supposed to materialize resources ...




Have you read the Shamans' User Guide?

The Great Spirit created all things.

The Shaman is a conduit to the Great Spirit for his people.

The Great Spirit hears any earnest request and provides guidance for ALL problems large & small.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
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Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
Re: Native American Medicine [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7417881 - 09/16/07 08:48 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

I am not even remotely trying to say that indigenous people everywhere are perfect happy rainbow people that spend all day dancing on clouds, eating cotton candy and playing with kitty cats.




What other (orgone) conclusion could I come to?


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OfflineNiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'
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Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 3,198
Last seen: 14 years, 8 months
Re: Native American Medicine [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7418004 - 09/16/07 09:24 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

I don't see how a Shaman is supposed to materialize resources ...




Have you read the Shamans' User Guide?

The Great Spirit created all things.

The Shaman is a conduit to the Great Spirit for his people.

The Great Spirit hears any earnest request and provides guidance for ALL problems large & small.




Do you think that the 'shaman's user guide' is even remotely representative of all native cultures? I think it's pretty important to note that there were many, many distinct cultures in north and south america, some of which believed in a concept like the great spirit, others which did not. the 'shaman's user guide' sounds like a hokey piece of trash if you ask me. There is a lot more to understanding the complexities of a culture's mythos and religion than reading some extremely generalized schlock written for white hippies. Come on Orgone, I'd expect some more legit sources from a critical thinker like you...


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
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Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
Re: Native American Medicine [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7418021 - 09/16/07 09:31 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

think it's pretty important to note that there were many, many distinct cultures in north and south america




Of course. NI tribes are not one people, however even you have grouped them.

Back to Thread topic: Why are shamans so ineffectual (in tribes where shamans are an integral part of tribal life) in helping with real-world problems?


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OfflineLion
Decadent Flower Magnate
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Registered: 09/20/05
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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7418979 - 09/17/07 07:34 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

The statement, 'Shamans are ineffectual at dealing with real-world problems', is a statement that you can't prove. How do you know that there are not thousands of shamans in the world who are good healers and who affect positive change for their people? Have you been to Oaxaca, the inner Amazon, the N'doki? Until you provide hard evidence that all shamans, or even a majority, are ineffectual, how can the question you've posed be debated? This will mean, on your end, doing some research on many, many peoples and the wide varieties of roles which 'shamans' (a name which is about as good as 'witch-doctors' in terms of blanket accuracy) play in their societies, the beliefs behind the shamans' practices, and the efficacy of their specific methods.


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


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OfflineArchemetis
newbie

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 200
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
Re: Native American Medicine [Re: Lion]
    #7419044 - 09/17/07 08:31 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

we're all playing with the cards we'v been dealt. shaman is not synonomous with god or omnipotent. there are many factors in a mans life that lead to his success or failure if such extremes exist on ones spiritual path. one such factor would be that one only has the power to effect his own inner essence. you cant give strength to anothers spirit without cooperation from all involved.

it seems black elk felt at the end of his life that he failed his people. i tend to think it was the people who failed him.


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OfflineArchemetis
newbie

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 200
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
Re: Native American Medicine [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7419055 - 09/17/07 08:35 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:



Back to Thread topic: Why are shamans so ineffectual (in tribes where shamans are an integral part of tribal life) in helping with real-world problems?




because the problems of the real world are generated by people unwilling to work out or even acknowledge these problems. and because shamans too have problems of their own that demand their attention.


Edited by Archemetis (09/17/07 08:37 AM)


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OfflineKinematics
coyote vision


Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 662
Loc: Colorado
Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
Re: Native American Medicine [Re: Archemetis]
    #7419103 - 09/17/07 08:58 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

This just seems like a thread to discredit shamanism and native American spirituality to me.


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OfflineArchemetis
newbie

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 200
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
Re: Native American Medicine [Re: Kinematics]
    #7419109 - 09/17/07 09:02 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

this is an orgone thread


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: Kinematics]
    #7419233 - 09/17/07 10:18 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Kinematics said:
This just seems like a thread to discredit shamanism and native American spirituality to me.




'White culture' very few, if any shamans - quite successful in the material world.

NI culture as a whole, more shamans - less successful in the material world.

Do you agree or disagree with this base assessment?


--------------------


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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7419314 - 09/17/07 10:50 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Success being defined, of course, by the "White culture" world. :lol:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7419356 - 09/17/07 11:05 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

And Yosemite Sam :smirk:



--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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OfflineNiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'
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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7420869 - 09/17/07 06:30 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

:lol:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
Re: Native American Medicine [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7421399 - 09/17/07 08:56 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Success being defined, of course, by the "White culture" world. :lol:




I suppose you could play word games and say short lifespans, high infant mortality, poverty, high suicide and alcoholism rates are 'success' indicators in non-white culture, but I would have to disagree.


--------------------


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OfflineKinematics
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Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 662
Loc: Colorado
Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
Re: Native American Medicine [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7422158 - 09/18/07 12:44 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

Kinematics said:
This just seems like a thread to discredit shamanism and native American spirituality to me.




'White culture' very few, if any shamans - quite successful in the material world.

NI culture as a whole, more shamans - less successful in the material world.

Do you agree or disagree with this base assessment?




Perhaps by your own definition, Native culture is the 'winner' in that regard being as they aren't as tied to material possessions and 'success' as those in contemporary western culture.

This is all a little too much of an apples-oranges comparison, anyway.


Edited by Kinematics (09/18/07 12:45 AM)


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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7422241 - 09/18/07 01:47 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
I suppose you could play word games and say short lifespans, high infant mortality, poverty, high suicide and alcoholism rates are 'success' indicators in non-white culture, but I would have to disagree.




So, we aren't speaking anymore of "culture", but now race? :what: I believe race is how these statistics you refer to are determined... Holding this specific race's culture responsible makes no sense, as their culture has already been decimated. The foundation of Native American culture cannot exist, as it is a life that can no longer be lived, due to the genocide and colonization of North America.

These facts have nothing to do with culture, and everything to do with the effects of the Indo-Ayran presence on this continent. Native Americans never had much material existance, in the eyes of the culture that ethnically cleansed their populations, and we certainly haven't given them much opportunity for them to assimilate. The opportunity for them to do so has been there for the last few decades, but is the opportunity for them to realize it as prevalent? Is this a failure of personal responsibility? I personally realize that every individual is responsible for themself, but not everyone realizes this, or has much of a means to begin that path.

Collective consciousness and the economic surroundings of the lands that Native Americans were forced onto have their toll, after all. Murder most of the population of a civilization, take away the well-being and source of livelihood of those who remain, partition them away into camps, and provide little opportunity for them to generate resources for themselves. It doesn't exactly sound like a formula that will promote "success".


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineKinematics
coyote vision


Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 662
Loc: Colorado
Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
Re: Native American Medicine [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7422272 - 09/18/07 02:21 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
I suppose you could play word games and say short lifespans, high infant mortality, poverty, high suicide and alcoholism rates are 'success' indicators in non-white culture, but I would have to disagree.




So, we aren't speaking anymore of "culture", but now race? :what: I believe race is how these statistics you refer to are determined... Holding this specific race's culture responsible makes no sense, as their culture has already been decimated. The foundation of Native American culture cannot exist, as it is a life that can no longer be lived, due to the genocide and colonization of North America.

These facts have nothing to do with culture, and everything to do with the effects of the Indo-Ayran presence on this continent. Native Americans never had much material existance, in the eyes of the culture that ethnically cleansed their populations, and we certainly haven't given them much opportunity for them to assimilate. The opportunity for them to do so has been there for the last few decades, but is the opportunity for them to realize it as prevalent? Is this a failure of personal responsibility? I personally realize that every individual is responsible for themself, but not everyone realizes this, or has much of a means to begin that path.

Collective consciousness and the economic surroundings of the lands that Native Americans were forced onto have their toll, after all. Murder most of the population of a civilization, take away the well-being and source of livelihood of those who remain, partition them away into camps, and provide little opportunity for them to generate resources for themselves. It doesn't exactly sound like a formula that will promote "success".




Good post. In addition, not all native Americans wish to integrate themselves with western civilization, they just want to live the same way they have for thousands of years. How exactly then, can you compare their culture with ours in terms of success? There's two entirely different goals here.


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