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OfflineKinematics
coyote vision


Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 662
Loc: Colorado
Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
Re: Native American Medicine [Re: Diploid]
    #7417006 - 09/16/07 04:09 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
and it is really up to us, and not god, whether we can propel ourselves through the challenge adequately.

Then what the fuck is God good for?




God, or whatever you would like to call it, is to me just a kid with an antfarm.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
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Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
Re: Native American Medicine [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7417265 - 09/16/07 05:16 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Your question is utterly ridiculous because you suggest that the social issues faced by indigenous people somehow reflect a failing of thier culture.




If a species is wiped out, it certainly reflects a failing on their ability to survive.

"Well, if the polar bears weren't so mean and nasty..." :blah:

Same goes with tribes. The stronger survives. Sorry, NN, but I didn't invent the evolutionary rules nor kill any Injuns, so your anger is misplaced.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
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Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
Re: Native American Medicine [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7417284 - 09/16/07 05:21 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Here in BC, where I live, there were gunboats up and down the coast demolishing villages at whim.




Simple question, let's see if I can get a straight answer:

Did Native Americans ever raid other tribes, savagely kill members, steal their food, hides & horses and kidnap and rape their women? YES or NO.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7417317 - 09/16/07 05:34 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

You seem to cling to the popular and false notion that all natives are drunk, broken victims.




Your emotionalism is showing. I never said 'all'. Exaggeration through misquoting is a sure sign that you do not fully believe what you are saying. The truth never needs shoring up.

The 'popular notion' that Indians suffer alcoholism at a far greater rate than other groups is certainly true.

alcoholism and minorities

"Although highly variable among tribes, alcohol abuse is a factor in five leading causes of death for American Indians, including motor vehicle crashes, alcoholism, cirrhosis, suicide, and homicide. Mortality rates for crashes and alcoholism are 5.5 and 3.8 times higher, respectively, among American Indians than among the general population. Among tribes with high rates of alcoholism, reports estimate that 75 percent of all accidents, the leading cause of death among American Indians, are alcohol related."


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
Re: Native American Medicine [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7417336 - 09/16/07 05:41 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Could you be any more vauge?



I could try. As I know you would not use sarcasm, I shall take this as an encouragment to be even more murky in future threads.

Quote:

Why doesn't modern medicine prevent communities from struggling with alcoholism, illiteracy, and poverty?



Because modern medicine is a result of studying cause and affect (science) and makes no pretenses to be able to elicit tribal guidance from the Great Spirit as NA Medicine Men do.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7417344 - 09/16/07 05:44 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Note: I am part Iroquois and have worked up a mighty, mighty thirst after all that typing. :yesnod:


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OfflineNiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'
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Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 3,198
Last seen: 14 years, 8 months
Re: Native American Medicine [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7417628 - 09/16/07 07:29 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

Your question is utterly ridiculous because you suggest that the social issues faced by indigenous people somehow reflect a failing of thier culture.




If a species is wiped out, it certainly reflects a failing on their ability to survive.

"Well, if the polar bears weren't so mean and nasty..." :blah:

Same goes with tribes. The stronger survives. Sorry, NN, but I didn't invent the evolutionary rules nor kill any Injuns, so your anger is misplaced.




So, you are a proponent of Social Darwinism? Interesting. Social Darwinism is the same ideology that argues to justify a hierarchy of race. 'Blacks are poor because they are evolutionarily inferior.' It is the ideology that became eugenics. Social Darwinism is a disgusting, racist convulution of Darwin's theory of evolution.

There is an incredibly vast difference between utilizing the resources and territory one's group needs to survive and defending said territory, and a deliberate campaign of imperialism which entails brutally exterminating all human groups one comes in contact with- voraciously exploiting anything one can grasp. It is utterly ridiculous to compare a polar bear with an Empire. :rolleyes:


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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
Stranger

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 11,123
Loc: Texas
Re: Native American Medicine [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7417638 - 09/16/07 07:34 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Mod Edit: C'mon. You know better than to flame in here. Please don't do it again.


Edited by Diploid (09/16/07 07:49 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Native American Medicine [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7417650 - 09/16/07 07:40 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Is not The Great Spirit more powerful than circumstance?

No.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
Stranger

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 11,123
Loc: Texas
Re: Native American Medicine [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7417657 - 09/16/07 07:41 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
If their shamans and ancient medicine are so powerful and actually work, why are their communities struggling with alcoholism, illiteracy and poverty? Is not The Great Spirit more powerful than circumstance?




Lets start with the dene indians which I'm most familiar with.

They were nomadic stone age hunters until around 1950, at which point the government forced them to live in settlements. These are guys who travelled all over the barrens on foot and hunted with spears.

So first of all they never lived in groups much greater than 10 individuals and didn't have the social skills nessecary to live in a large settlement.

Then most of the childred were taken to residential schools where they were forced to speak english and accept a new religion. In addition to this most were abused physically, as well as being basically abducted from their parents.

Recently a huge billion dollar settlement was made where every one of those residential school students was paid around 22 grand.

So you have stone age people with no social skills... forced to live in settlements where there is no economic potential at all. And they get enough food and money to survive without working. Wonder why they have these problems of suicide and alcoholism?


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OfflineNiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'
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Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 3,198
Last seen: 14 years, 8 months
Re: Native American Medicine [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7417666 - 09/16/07 07:43 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

Here in BC, where I live, there were gunboats up and down the coast demolishing villages at whim.




Simple question, let's see if I can get a straight answer:

Did Native Americans ever raid other tribes, savagely kill members, steal their food, hides & horses and kidnap and rape their women? YES or NO.




Did Indigenous people ever colonize an entire continent (or many continents, for the sake of accurate comparison,) wiping out hundreds if not thousands of cultures and assimilating the few survivors through means of torture? Did they claim a right to exploit the resources of the land of these conquered peoples into utter depletion, thus threatening the prospects of any of us living anywhere on the planet?

I am not even remotely trying to say that indigenous people everywhere are perfect happy rainbow people that spend all day dancing on clouds, eating cotton candy and playing with kitty cats. I am simply saying that nothing compares to the Imperialism of Europe, that genocide cannot be explained in terms of 'evolution,' and that the terms of your argument are totally falseminded.


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OfflineNiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'
Female User Gallery

Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 3,198
Last seen: 14 years, 8 months
Re: Native American Medicine [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7417670 - 09/16/07 07:45 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

adjust said:
Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
If their shamans and ancient medicine are so powerful and actually work, why are their communities struggling with alcoholism, illiteracy and poverty? Is not The Great Spirit more powerful than circumstance?




Lets start with the dene indians which I'm most familiar with.

They were nomadic stone age hunters until around 1950, at which point the government forced them to live in settlements. These are guys who travelled all over the barrens on foot and hunted with spears.

So first of all they never lived in groups much greater than 10 individuals and didn't have the social skills nessecary to live in a large settlement.

Then most of the childred were taken to residential schools where they were forced to speak english and accept a new religion. In addition to this most were abused physically, as well as being basically abducted from their parents.

Recently a huge billion dollar settlement was made where every one of those residential school students was paid around 22 grand.

So you have stone age people with no social skills... forced to live in settlements where there is no economic potential at all. And they get enough food and money to survive without working. Wonder why they have these problems of suicide and alcoholism?




The only complaint I have with this is the social skills thing... it isn't about having social skills or not. Many groups thrown in residential school lived in dense settlements (coastal peoples, for example.) The process fucked everyone, whether they were a band or a chiefdom based society...


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
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Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
Re: Native American Medicine [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7417690 - 09/16/07 07:51 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Before I respond, can we be clear, as I do not want to make an assumption on your POV. Was that a YES or a NO to my simple question?

One word will do.


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Native American Medicine [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7417699 - 09/16/07 07:54 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
For once, let's bypass how they got where they are today and the 'evil White man'.

If their shamans and ancient medicine are so powerful and actually work, why are their communities struggling with alcoholism, illiteracy and poverty? Is not The Great Spirit more powerful than circumstance?




Here's what I really think.:tongue:  These early on Shaman were pioneers and therefore only made the first step in cosmic awareness and spiritual power. Maybe we've made one more step since then. Maybe not. Maybe there is nothing to this shit and maybe there is. It's way too soon to tell.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
Stranger

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 11,123
Loc: Texas
Re: Native American Medicine [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7417702 - 09/16/07 07:55 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Did Native Americans ever raid other tribes, savagely kill members, steal their food, hides & horses and kidnap and rape their women? YES or NO.




YES

Look dude I've read the samuel hern diary (though it is in old english and a bit hard to understant) it shows the brutality and merciless nature of some native americans towards outsiders.

What is your point? Because they did it, then that means it's okay for europeans to do it too? And you're not part iroquois you fucking dope, you weren't raised iroquois.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
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Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
Re: Native American Medicine [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7417722 - 09/16/07 08:01 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

What is your point? Because they did it, then that means it's okay for europeans to do it too?




My point is that both Europeans and Native Americans have committed atrocious acts. The Europeans did more damage because of more advanced weapons and superior numbers not because they were more evil.


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Native American Medicine [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7417727 - 09/16/07 08:02 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

And just because the idiots do it in OTD does that make it OK for you to flame people that push your many buttons?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Native American Medicine [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7417733 - 09/16/07 08:04 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

adjust, stop flaming. I'm not telling you again.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
Stranger

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 11,123
Loc: Texas
Re: Native American Medicine [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7417741 - 09/16/07 08:05 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

How do you know this?

You know orgone it seems to me you really are clueless on this issue.

I suggest you make a new troll thread.


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Native American Medicine [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7417755 - 09/16/07 08:08 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

And yet another personalism.!:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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