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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
Native American Medicine
    #7415490 - 09/16/07 04:58 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

For once, let's bypass how they got where they are today and the 'evil White man'.

If their shamans and ancient medicine are so powerful and actually work, why are their communities struggling with alcoholism, illiteracy and poverty? Is not The Great Spirit more powerful than circumstance?


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
Re: Native American Medicine [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7415553 - 09/16/07 05:59 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

"Hmmn, what can we shit all over and piss on today?"  :poop: :piss:


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OfflineLocus
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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7415614 - 09/16/07 06:48 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

You cant just bypass that, thats the reason why.

middleman: :grin:


--------------------

The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing. One cannot help but be in awe when he contemplates the mysteries of eternity, of life, of the marvelous structure of reality. It is enough if one tries merely to comprehend a little of this mystery every day. Never lose a holy curiosity. ~ Albert Einstein
"Fear is the great barrier to human growth." ~ Dr. Robert Monroe



~~~*Dosis sola facit venenum*~~~

*Check my profile to listen to my music* :smile:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: Locus]
    #7415628 - 09/16/07 06:53 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

So the whole 'victim' thread meant nothing and your past forever defines who you are and one is powerless to change it? Is that your stance?


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7415831 - 09/16/07 08:15 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I would agree and say the same goes for the Christian beliefs allowing Rome to fall to barbarians, the Muslim beliefs allowing the Middle East to be subjugated, and the Jewish beliefs to allow the Holocaust to occur.

Middleman: Why post if you have nothing substantive to add? This isn't MR&P.


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OfflineLion
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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7415914 - 09/16/07 08:41 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

This thread seems pretty bigoted to me.  There are many, many American Indian tribes in the U.S., Mexico, and Canada, all of whom have different practices and medicines and many of whom have given up old customs and ways of healings in favor of whatever the state is providing.  Blanket statements cannot be made about the efficacy of "Native Americans'" techniques.  Also, alcoholism, illiteracy, and poverty were not problems which any tribes had to deal with before Europeans came to the Americas. :shrug:


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: Lion]
    #7415936 - 09/16/07 08:49 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Also, alcoholism, illiteracy, and poverty were not problems which any tribes had to deal with before Europeans came to the Americas.




In order: Right, wrong and wrong.


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OfflineLion
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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7415949 - 09/16/07 08:52 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

:confused:

Just because there was no literacy, doesn't mean illiteracy was a problem.  Written language was something that was not needed.

And maybe scarcity of resources was a problem for many tribes - but what does that have to do with shamans and medicine anyway??


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Registered: 04/01/07
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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: Lion]
    #7415982 - 09/16/07 09:02 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

And maybe scarcity of resources was a problem for many tribes...




Is that not poverty?

You keep dancing around my question, why is a medicine man or shaman, who allegedly is in contact with the Great Spirit, unable to bring about any real change?

One more time and I will be forced to invoke the Icelander Ruling.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7416022 - 09/16/07 09:18 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Perhaps there is no Great Spirit, and life is just a series of experiences?  :eek:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: Veritas]
    #7416034 - 09/16/07 09:24 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

HERETIC! :mad:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7416114 - 09/16/07 10:09 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
If their shamans and ancient medicine are so powerful and actually work, why are their communities struggling with alcoholism, illiteracy and poverty? Is not The Great Spirit more powerful than circumstance?




Could you be any more vauge? Why doesn't modern medicine prevent communities from struggling with alcoholism, illiteracy, and poverty? What understanding are you attempting to convey? :confused:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: Middleman]
    #7416118 - 09/16/07 10:10 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Middleman said:
"Hmmn, what can we shit all over and piss on today?"  :poop: :piss:




Discussion in this forum is centered around the ideas being presented for discussion, and not personalisms. :wink:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7416544 - 09/16/07 12:49 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Let's start from the beginning, with the colonial experience. You can't separate the present from the past and so I'm going into it whether you like it or not. Here in BC, where I live, there were gunboats up and down the coast demolishing villages at whim. There were 'gifts' of blankets infected with smallpox. There was forced assimilation in the form of Residential Schools where native kids were forced to give up thier culture - speaking one's native tongue, telling thier own stories, etc were against the rules. Many many of them were raped by priests and most of them were severely beaten more or less regularly. I've heard stories of fathers going to jail for 6 months of every year as punishment for withholding thier kids from residential school. The Potlatch was banned. I could go on and on and on but I think we have the point here.

If your entire community was utterly destroyed, first by guns and disease, and then by forced assimilation, families split up, people forced to be ashamed of thier own culture... do you really think that you would come out of such an experience whole and undamaged?

Your question is utterly ridiculous because you suggest that the social issues faced by indigenous people somehow reflect a failing of thier culture. There is a pretty fucking massive difference between a culture failing due to its own weaknesses, and a deliberate and long-term genocide destroying people physically, emotionally and spiritually. I really suggest doing a little bit of research into what colonization really was before embarrassing yourself with such ignorant, inane bullshit. Few things make me as angry as settlers repeating ignorant, oppressive garbage about indigenous people who's land they live on due to genocide.


Edited by NiamhNyx (09/16/07 01:03 PM)


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7416574 - 09/16/07 01:00 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
So the whole 'victim' thread meant nothing and your past forever defines who you are and one is powerless to change it? Is that your stance?




No. There are many indigenous people today struggling to reclaim culture and landbases. The Zapatistas, The Mohawks (Oka, the recent rebellions in Kahnesatake and Kahnewake,) The struggle against ski resort development in traditional territory at places like Sutikalh, Bear Mountain and Sunpeaks. There are also many people who are relearning thier languages just as the last speakers are getting old enough to die with the knowledge. Much knowledge remains, much has been lost. Many people are doing what they can to reclaim it.

You seem to cling to the popular and false notion that all natives are drunk, broken victims. So many people are strong, healthy and doing incredible work to overcome the legacy of colonization. If you pulled your head out of your ass and actually did some research (or talked to a native person...) you might discover this for yourself. Was that a personalism? Oops.


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OfflineKinematics
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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7416715 - 09/16/07 02:04 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
For once, let's bypass how they got where they are today and the 'evil White man'.

If their shamans and ancient medicine are so powerful and actually work, why are their communities struggling with alcoholism, illiteracy and poverty? Is not The Great Spirit more powerful than circumstance?




Because all humans are fallible.

Christians frequently speak of tests. "God is testing you." Well, I believe that we are all constantly being tested, our personal values, our faith, et cetera.. and it is really up to us, and not god, whether we can propel ourselves through the challenge adequately.


Edited by Kinematics (09/16/07 02:09 PM)


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Offlinejonathanseagull
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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: Kinematics]
    #7416725 - 09/16/07 02:10 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I don't see how a Shaman is supposed to materialize resources (poverty), teach people to write (illiteracy), nor change the will power of an individual (alcoholism). This thread is pointless.


--------------------
Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.


Edited by jonathanseagull (09/16/07 02:11 PM)


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: jonathanseagull]
    #7416744 - 09/16/07 02:16 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

jonathanseagull said:
I don't see how a Shaman is supposed to materialize resources (poverty), teach people to write (illiteracy), nor change the will power of an individual (alcoholism). This thread is pointless.




...and this right here tidily wraps things up... why didn't I say this?


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: Kinematics]
    #7416794 - 09/16/07 02:31 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

and it is really up to us, and not god, whether we can propel ourselves through the challenge adequately.

Then what the fuck is God good for?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Native American Medicine [Re: Diploid]
    #7416806 - 09/16/07 02:36 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Religion :hehehe:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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