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Annapurna1
liberal pussy


Registered: 05/21/02
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"are the rich necessary??"...
#7413223 - 09/15/07 01:39 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070915/bs_nm/businessbooks_wealthy_dc
Quote:
Investment adviser asks if wealthy are necessary
By Lisa Von Ahn2 hours, 15 minutes ago
At a time when a CEO of a large U.S. company is likely to earn in one day what the average worker does in a year, an investment adviser takes the income-disparity controversy a few steps further in "Are the Rich Necessary?"
That question, almost unthinkable in a capitalist society, is one of many that Cambridge Associates LLC co-founder Hunter Lewis poses in his latest book (Axios Press, $20).
Lewis, the author of "A Question of Values" and "The Beguiling Serpent," also looks at the profit motive, its effect on democracy and society, and the roles government and central banks should play in wealth distribution.
"Are the Rich Necessary?" offers no simple or even definitive statements on these complex issues. Instead, Lewis presents a cross-section of often divergent viewpoints, in keeping with the book's subtitle: "Great Economic Arguments and How They Reflect Our Personal Values."
These are generally arguments with no clear winner.
On the question of whether the rich are necessary, for example, one school of thought considers them decadent parasites who reap the harvest sown by those less fortunate than themselves.
But another theory contends that any government seizure and redistribution of the fruits of that harvest would cause buyers to disappear and prices to plummet.
There's also the concept that the wealthy are both outnumbered and outgunned financially by the rest of society. As a result, the average consumer rules, and millionaires and billionaires are mere public servants, trustees or social agents, although Lewis acknowledges that such a view might surprise even the deep-pocketed.
In terms of the profit system, some consider it unfair and inefficient, pitting employers against workers. Others say the quest for earnings leads to increased supply and lower prices, benefiting people who have to watch what they spend.
THE PHILANTHROPIC APPROACH
Many theorists advocate progressive taxation -- in which the rich pay more -- as a way to ease the effects of income inequality, but Lewis sees great promise in expanding the nonprofit sector, an area in which he has decades of experience.
He helped start Cambridge Associates in 1973 after working on a review of Harvard University's investment approach, and nonprofit organizations are still the firm's main client base. He has also sat on board and committees of 15 not-for-profit groups.
Philanthropic associations could take over many government functions, such as social services, health, housing and education, Lewis writes. The government could either fund these groups directly or encourage the wealthy to do so with tax credits.
One scenario, he said, would be a simple income tax with only a few allowed deductions. The poor would be fully exempt, and the initial tax bracket would fund the government.
There would also be one or two higher brackets for the rich, who could either pay these additional taxes directly to the government or receive a full tax credit by donating the same amount to registered charities.
An estate tax whose revenues would go to nonprofit organizations is another possibility.
Enlarging this sector, which now accounts for only about 8 percent of the U.S. economy, would mean more money would flow directly to the needy, Lewis said. He also sees philanthropic organizations as more creative and responsive to the people they are trying to help.
But even here, he is careful to list possible objections, such as an aversion to donations as government policy and concerns that charities could become bloated and inefficient.
Still, he sees the nonprofit approach as one way to bring the various economic factions together.
"An expansion of philanthropic values," he writes, " ... could offer a way forward out of the old, bitter, and often sterile economic quarrels of the past."
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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...
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SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!

Registered: 01/15/05
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Re: "are the rich necessary??"... [Re: Annapurna1]
#7413226 - 09/15/07 01:41 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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someone has to win the game, and someone has to lose.
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Annapurna1
liberal pussy


Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
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Re: "are the rich necessary??"... [Re: SneezingPenis]
#7413299 - 09/15/07 02:00 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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thats just begging the question.. that being whether the zero-sum game is the only game in town...and all the empirical evidence suggests otherwise...
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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...
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DieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: "are the rich necessary??"... [Re: Annapurna1]
#7413389 - 09/15/07 02:24 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Annapurna1 said: thats just begging the question.. that being whether the zero-sum game is the only game in town...and all the empirical evidence suggests otherwise...
Exactly, like in america. The rich get richer and the poor get richer.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: "are the rich necessary??"... [Re: Annapurna1]
#7413466 - 09/15/07 02:41 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Annapurna1 said: thats just begging the question.. that being whether the zero-sum game is the only game in town...and all the empirical evidence suggests otherwise...
I never felt that winning that game was at all worthwhile as far a really enjoying life. When I had enough I quit and started playing . I didn't need much either. Most of my peers will have to work another fifteen years or more to be able to stop. I have never been the type to believe that too much is never enough. That IMO is completely fear based, on primitive animal emotional states.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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badchad
Mad Scientist

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Re: "are the rich necessary??"... [Re: Icelander]
#7413606 - 09/15/07 03:30 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yes the rich are necessary. Without some sort of financial incentive, few would work.
-------------------- ...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge. It is an indellible experience; it is forever known. I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did. Smith, P. Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27. ...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely. Osmond, H. Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436
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ledfut
I once jerkedoff w/ bothhands


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Re: "are the rich necessary??"... [Re: badchad]
#7413627 - 09/15/07 03:39 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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uhhh...how's dying of starvation for motivation?
-------------------- May our only occupation be not having a job. May the only cocktails that we make be molitov. -Johnny Hobo and the Freight Trains
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: "are the rich necessary??"... [Re: badchad]
#7413634 - 09/15/07 03:41 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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The incentive to provide food and shelter has been around far longer then $$. One also creates incentive with interest in something.
It doesn't have to just be stored riches and power over others. I think it's one choice, and usually fear based at that. Fear of lack and limited resources. Unfortunately when that pattern is set most rarely know when they have enough and continue on automatic pilot for the rest of their lives believing that is all there is.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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DieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
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Re: "are the rich necessary??"... [Re: ledfut]
#7413638 - 09/15/07 03:44 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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But the truth is nobody in western democracies dies of starvation. There is free food for anybody in every major city, both in the form of soup kitchens where you eat it there, and food banks where you take it home.
Of course in places like rhodesia its a different story.... there starvation is very real problem, even if you do work.
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Ellis Dee
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Re: "are the rich necessary??"... [Re: Annapurna1]
#7413873 - 09/15/07 04:54 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I have never had a job working for a pan handler. There at least needs to be employers. Rich or not.
-------------------- "If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



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Re: "are the rich necessary??"... [Re: DieCommie]
#7413930 - 09/15/07 05:13 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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> Exactly, like in america. The rich get richer and the poor get richer.
Human nature. America and capitalism have nothing to do with it. Look at Venezula, Cuba, North Korea, China, etc... the poor are kept poor while the ruling elite have whatever they want. I think Icelander summed up my feelings fairly well, but for many, greed is their nature.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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DieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
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Re: "are the rich necessary??"... [Re: Seuss]
#7413950 - 09/15/07 05:19 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Im not sure I get your point...
What I meant was there doesnt need to be a system where only the rich get richer... In some systems everybody gets richer. In fact, I would say that is the overall trend in all civilizations (though very slowly at first), barring anomalies through the years like the places you mentioned.
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robbyberto
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Re: "are the rich necessary??"... [Re: DieCommie]
#7413952 - 09/15/07 05:21 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
In some systems everybody gets richer
Capitalism. And to the original poster: Yes, the rich are necessary for our economy to succeed.
-------------------- “People say having kids is life changing, well that doesn’t necessarily mean a good thing, does it? I could take one of my legs off. That would change my life.” -Karl Pilkington
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EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



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Re: "are the rich necessary??"... [Re: Seuss]
#7414315 - 09/15/07 07:45 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/01/18 07:22 PM)
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



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Re: "are the rich necessary??"... [Re: DieCommie]
#7414327 - 09/15/07 07:48 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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> In some systems everybody gets richer.
I'm claiming that such a system exists only as a fantasy. Were energy to become free, then I agree, such a system could exist, but until then, human nature will rule meaning that greed will result in "financial" disparity within the population.
I provided many socialist examples that are failures of equality. If you can show a system where everybody gets richer, then please, do so. I could be wrong, but I don't think there is such a thing.
> Capitalism.
Capitalism does not lead to everybody getting richer. Unemployment being a counter example.
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robbyberto
Water Boy


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Re: "are the rich necessary??"... [Re: Seuss]
#7414332 - 09/15/07 07:50 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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No, it doesn't. But it gives its citizens the ability and reason to acquire wealth.
-------------------- “People say having kids is life changing, well that doesn’t necessarily mean a good thing, does it? I could take one of my legs off. That would change my life.” -Karl Pilkington
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



Registered: 04/27/01
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> Since being elected to power, Hugo Chavez has cut the pay of politicians & government officials
And yet Hugo and his buddies live like royalty while the poor are still living in tin huts.
> Have you been to Venezuela in the last 10 years?
Yes. It is interesting; there is very little middle class left. I've only been in the areas where people take their boats during hurricane season, but in those areas, small business owners are a thing of the past. From what I see, Chavez has managed to bribe the poor at the expense of the middle class. It will be interesting to see how the country does as their oil starts to run out.
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EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



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Re: "are the rich necessary??"... [Re: Seuss]
#7414381 - 09/15/07 08:02 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/01/18 07:23 PM)
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EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



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Re: "are the rich necessary??"... [Re: Seuss]
#7414405 - 09/15/07 08:08 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/01/18 07:23 PM)
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EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



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Re: "are the rich necessary??"... [Re: Seuss]
#7414431 - 09/15/07 08:16 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/01/18 07:23 PM)
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DieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: "are the rich necessary??"... [Re: Seuss]
#7414471 - 09/15/07 08:29 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
If you can show a system where everybody gets richer, then please, do so. I could be wrong, but I don't think there is such a thing.
I think civilization in general is an example of such a system. Since the beginning of civilization life spans have increased, populations have increased, the amount of living space a person has increased, the amount of energy available to each person has increased, oppurtinities for personal choice of fulfillment has increased, the amount of food available to each person has increased, the list goes on... I think most civilizations in most of history have exhibited this to some extent.
This is in general of course. You pointed out a few places where this is not the case, but that is not the general trend. The general trend of humanity is the rich get richer and the poor get richer. They may not get richer at the same rate, but both classes are getting richer.
This growth has been slow for the thousands of years preceding, but now I believe we are poised for this growth to change faster than ever.
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Phred
Fred's son


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Re: "are the rich necessary??"... [Re: Seuss]
#7414556 - 09/15/07 09:04 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Seuss writes:
Quote:
Capitalism does not lead to everybody getting richer.
Not everybody, no. There will always be a certain very small percentage of people unable to support themselves. This is true in any political system, of course. But the "poor" in any country that has been at least quasi-capitalist for say half a century or more are vastly better off than the poor in non-capitalist countries.
Phred
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



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Re: "are the rich necessary??"... [Re: Phred]
#7415514 - 09/16/07 05:16 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I don't know if the poor in a capitalist society are better off than the poor in a socialist society (or non-capitalist society). I suspect you are correct, based upon what I have seen in my travels. Nobody has brought it up yet, so I will. To me, what capitalism offers is the chance for anybody, regardless of being born into the elite, regardless of being poor, anybody has the opportunity to become "king".
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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Arp
roving mycophagist


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Re: "are the rich necessary??"... [Re: Seuss]
#7416067 - 09/16/07 09:43 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Edited by Arp (09/16/07 12:04 PM)
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EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



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Re: "are the rich necessary??"... [Re: Seuss]
#7416346 - 09/16/07 11:34 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/01/18 07:24 PM)
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Arp
roving mycophagist


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Re: "are the rich necessary??"... [Re: Seuss]
#7416432 - 09/16/07 12:03 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Wouldn't you consider a country like Peru more of a capitalistic society than the USA? There government control is far less, you can buy an university diploma on the black market and practice pretty much anything you would desire. If you get in trouble most times bribes can work in your favor. And you can easily avoid paying tax.
They even had a fake-Peruvian president not so long ago.
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BrAiN
Art Fag

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Re: "are the rich necessary??"... [Re: Arp]
#7416514 - 09/16/07 12:38 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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It's either what we have now or communism.
Personally.. I'll take what we have now. At least this way the poor have a fighting chance if they're smart emough.
In communism, you don't have any choices. Period. And you're still opressed... just by the government instead of companies.
It's all the same shit.
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Arp
roving mycophagist


Registered: 04/20/98
Posts: 2,191
Loc: in a van by the river
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Re: "are the rich necessary??"... [Re: BrAiN]
#7416594 - 09/16/07 01:08 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I'm just saying that it isn't capitalism alone that has taken us to where we are today. It's a hybrid system utilizing a little of everything in various amounts.
Which I find pretty nice as well. No worries in the world besides having to clean the litter box.
But I'm curious how well we would be off without the cheap labor of other systems where people are treated like dirt.
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EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



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Re: "are the rich necessary??"... [Re: BrAiN]
#7417399 - 09/16/07 06:04 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/01/18 07:24 PM)
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gluke bastid
Stinky Bum



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Re: "are the rich necessary??"... [Re: BrAiN]
#7423446 - 09/18/07 12:14 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
BrAiN said: It's either what we have now or communism.
Capitalism has been, currently is, and can be many different things. Capitalism in pre-industrial Britain was an entirely different game than capitalism in contemporary Britain, which is significantly different than capitalism in America.
For example capitalism with a 100% inheritance tax would still be capitalism. Capitalism without child labor laws would still be capitalism. Capitalism without a military would still be capitalism. Capitalism with state mandatory executions of anyone over 30 would still be capitalism.
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Society in every form is a blessing, but government at its best is but a necessary evil - Thomas Paine
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BrAiN
Art Fag

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Re: "are the rich necessary??"... [Re: gluke bastid]
#7423496 - 09/18/07 12:27 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yea true...
Just seems that capitalism and communism are really easy to exploit. Capitalism, because it's such a free and open system, is easy to let the greedy fuck everyone else. Communism, because all the masses are pretty much 'broken', it's easy for a power hungry fool to take advantage of it and step up to control the sedated crowd.
I'm not anti capitalism. I hate commies. But the flavor of capitalism right now seems to be polarizing everyone into rich or poor categories and as I heard someone once say "Once the middle class wakes up and realized they don't have the power anymore.. that's when a Revolution happens".
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero


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Re: "are the rich necessary??"... [Re: BrAiN]
#7423521 - 09/18/07 12:30 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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> I hate commies.
I wouldn't claim to hate commies... in theory, communism is a great system. Unfortunately, theory and reality (in this case) are very far removed from one another. (Communism only works where there is enough to go around that anybody can have anything they want at any time they want... something that will never be a reality.)
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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BrAiN
Art Fag

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Re: "are the rich necessary??"... [Re: Seuss]
#7423530 - 09/18/07 12:33 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said: > I hate commies.
I wouldn't claim to hate commies... in theory, communism is a great system. Unfortunately, theory and reality (in this case) are very far removed from one another. (Communism only works where there is enough to go around that anybody can have anything they want at any time they want... something that will never be a reality.)
Let me rephrase
I hate the commies that act like it's all justified to overthrow a gov't by blowing up innocent ppl like they do frequently in south america.
And commies like Kim Jong Il that decide to fuck their masses over to huddle to any ounce of power they have left to muster..
And commies that start a war and kill millions of people in genocide (cough cough Cambodia) in order to claim power.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: "are the rich necessary??"... [Re: BrAiN]
#7425069 - 09/18/07 06:46 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Communism is inconsistent with immutable human nature. The notion that we are created equal is a fiction. The notion that we are all created equal "under law" is one of the greatest ideas we have ever invented. Capitalism is the greatest expression of that difference.
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gluke bastid
Stinky Bum



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Re: "are the rich necessary??"... [Re: zappaisgod]
#7427576 - 09/19/07 10:58 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: Communism is inconsistent with immutable human nature. The notion that we are created equal is a fiction. The notion that we are all created equal "under law" is one of the greatest ideas we have ever invented. Capitalism is the greatest expression of that difference.
I am anti communist and pro capitalist but the arguement that capitalism is the best expression of human nature is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Its so dumb I don't even know where to start. It's an intellectual turd that is so massive and built on so many bad ideas that deconstructing it would require an army.
Suffice to say that people used to say the same thing about Feudalism, that it was in keeping with "the natural state of man." The said the same thing about the slavery system. Of course the system you are in seems "natural." But its a totally subjective experience.
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Society in every form is a blessing, but government at its best is but a necessary evil - Thomas Paine
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Annapurna1
liberal pussy


Registered: 05/21/02
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Loc: innsmouth..MA
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Re: "are the rich necessary??"... [Re: gluke bastid]
#7428003 - 09/19/07 12:54 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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i would answer that human nature is very mutable and dynamic..which is why it doesnt mesh well with things that look good on paper..such as neoconservatism (as witness iraq) and communism...
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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...
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Phred
Fred's son


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Re: "are the rich necessary??"... [Re: gluke bastid]
#7428282 - 09/19/07 01:50 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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gluke_bastid writes:
Quote:
I am anti communist and pro capitalist but the arguement that capitalism is the best expression of human nature is the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
Actually, Capitalism isn't even an "ism" at all. It's nothing more than what people do when left alone.
Phred
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: "are the rich necessary??"... [Re: gluke bastid]
#7428480 - 09/19/07 02:33 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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One of the dumbest things I have ever read is that you think I wrote this:
"capitalism is the best expression of human nature"
I didn't. Reread.
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Arp
roving mycophagist


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Re: "are the rich necessary??"... [Re: Phred]
#7428484 - 09/19/07 02:34 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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mastrubate?
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gluke bastid
Stinky Bum



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Re: "are the rich necessary??"... [Re: Phred]
#7428490 - 09/19/07 02:35 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Phred said: Actually, Capitalism isn't even an "ism" at all. It's nothing more than what people do when left alone. Phred
Left alone? By who? Do you mean not having to answer to govrenment or authority? Because that's anarchy. I think you could argue that anarachism is not an "ism," but capitalism requires government, technology, military, resources, classes, currency, the whole shebang. How could you have capitalism without capital itself? I don't understand "left alone." Who, or what, is leaving these rhetorical people alone?
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Society in every form is a blessing, but government at its best is but a necessary evil - Thomas Paine
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Phred
Fred's son


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Re: "are the rich necessary??"... [Re: gluke bastid]
#7428607 - 09/19/07 03:01 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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gluke_bastid writes:
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Left alone? By who? Do you mean not having to answer to govrenment or authority?
Left alone by government yes, but also by other individuals. It is natural for humans to co-operate. That's part of human nature. They need no government or other authority to compel them to co-operate: they do it on their own. It's also natural for humans to voluntarily trade with one another. That too is human nature. As a matter of fact, the drive to trade with others is so strong that even in the most repressive totalitarian societies there is always a black market. A black market is nothing more than underground capitalism.
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but capitalism requires government, technology, military, resources, classes, currency, the whole shebang.
Actually, it doesn't require classes, nor does it even require currency, but in essence you have it correct. If you answer the following question it becomes clear -- What is government's (and since the military is a part of the government, the military's) role in a Capitalist society? To ensure people are left alone. If no one is messing with anyone else, the government need do nothing other than sit on its thumbs. It's a backup safety mechanism, not the driving force in human affairs.
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How could you have capitalism without capital itself?
You conflate currency with capital. Currency is nothing more than an abstraction which eases transactions. Currency is a representation of actual goods (and services), it is not the goods themselves. The goods (and services) are the capital. It is as feasible to use a direct barter system under Capitalism as it is under any other system.
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I don't understand "left alone." Who, or what, is leaving these rhetorical people alone?
Other people.
Phred
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Arp
roving mycophagist


Registered: 04/20/98
Posts: 2,191
Loc: in a van by the river
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Re: "are the rich necessary??"... [Re: Phred]
#7428794 - 09/19/07 03:47 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Military & protection should be private and contracted by those who need it.
The rest of us can be pirates
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Re: "are the rich necessary??"... [Re: Arp]
#7429206 - 09/19/07 05:45 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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The rest of you can then be slaves or food.
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Re: "are the rich necessary??"... [Re: zappaisgod]
#7429474 - 09/19/07 06:51 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: The rest of you can then be slaves or food.
Soylent Green anyone?
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Yum.
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