|
Some of these posts are very old and might contain outdated information. You may wish to search for newer posts instead.
|
Nickio
Authority


Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 321
Last seen: 13 years, 5 months
|
Is this WBS ready to spawn? pics, and im confused.
#7410209 - 09/14/07 05:13 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Alright, so the jar has been taking a while, I shook it at 30% and it came back real fast and the whole jar was white. Well I was gonna start pastuerizing some coir and I shook the jars again to make it pourable, and now this is what it looks like:

This doesnt seem right... it was REALLY white before, but after its broken up its not all that white looking. Is this normal? Is it ready? Each seed has white spots on it but I figured the whole seed would be white. I dunno, what do yall think?
|
Dr_T
Random Dude




Registered: 06/03/07
Posts: 1,839
Loc: Colorado
Last seen: 16 years, 4 months
|
Re: Is this WBS ready to spawn? pics, and im confused. [Re: Nickio]
#7410267 - 09/14/07 05:26 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
You don't want to shake it before you spawn, that just beats up the myc and it has to recover. So let it rest, and then spawn it. If you have to break it up, do it gently. Or just spoon it out. Don't beat it all silly and expect it to bust its ass for you.
-------------------- Roger Rabbit said: Growing mushrooms is part art, and part science, but it's not magic.
|
Nickio
Authority


Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 321
Last seen: 13 years, 5 months
|
Re: Is this WBS ready to spawn? pics, and im confused. [Re: Dr_T]
#7410275 - 09/14/07 05:29 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Well these jars arent wide mouth so I gotta break her up a bit. I was told to break it up (in the previous thread) before spawning, doh! I'll let it fix itself and mix bulk with the spawn on Sunday. Anyone else? I love diverse input
--------------------
|
wutang
fungi



Registered: 06/28/07
Posts: 1,903
Last seen: 16 years, 2 months
|
Re: Is this WBS ready to spawn? pics, and im confused. [Re: Nickio]
#7410432 - 09/14/07 06:14 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
i dont see any mycelium on that what so ever hey dr. T, is my WBS ready to spawn? its orissa indian
|
Nickio
Authority


Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 321
Last seen: 13 years, 5 months
|
Re: Is this WBS ready to spawn? pics, and im confused. [Re: wutang]
#7410434 - 09/14/07 06:15 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
It was as white as your jar on the right, shake ur jar and see what happends to it
--------------------
|
wutang
fungi



Registered: 06/28/07
Posts: 1,903
Last seen: 16 years, 2 months
|
Re: Is this WBS ready to spawn? pics, and im confused. [Re: Nickio]
#7410446 - 09/14/07 06:18 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
i did, im not a noob <.< >.> that aids in growth, but why did you shake it so hard?? mycelium has to recover from shaking, didn't you know that? when i did it, the wbs broke into chunks then healed itself in 3 days
|
wutang
fungi



Registered: 06/28/07
Posts: 1,903
Last seen: 16 years, 2 months
|
Re: Is this WBS ready to spawn? pics, and im confused. [Re: wutang]
#7410455 - 09/14/07 06:20 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
i dont even see a trace that mycelium was even there dont shake so hard this is a great example why
|
Nickio
Authority


Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 321
Last seen: 13 years, 5 months
|
Re: Is this WBS ready to spawn? pics, and im confused. [Re: wutang]
#7410457 - 09/14/07 06:20 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Yes I knew that, but I was under the impression that it had to be broken up into individual seeds since thats why WBS is so popular because of all the inoculation points... and I'm a newb to the grain thing, first time doing it so yea Im a newb lol, but this is the 3rd time shaking the poor things, i hope it does alright getting back, I was all excited to get started too
--------------------
|
wutang
fungi



Registered: 06/28/07
Posts: 1,903
Last seen: 16 years, 2 months
|
Re: Is this WBS ready to spawn? pics, and im confused. [Re: Nickio]
#7410461 - 09/14/07 06:22 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
okay you learn from your mistakes i hope you have more jars colonizing just incase this jar doesnt recover please let us know, i hope your jar will be okay
|
spock1
Stranger

Registered: 04/14/07
Posts: 589
Last seen: 15 years, 7 months
|
Re: Is this WBS ready to spawn? pics, and im confused. *DELETED* [Re: wutang]
#7410485 - 09/14/07 06:28 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Post deleted by spock1Reason for deletion: .
|
calicyco
member

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 355
|
Re: Is this WBS ready to spawn? pics, and im confused. [Re: spock1]
#7410557 - 09/14/07 06:48 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Umm, why would you not shake your jars before colonizing? You want individual spawn. The jar is fine, you don't have to wait for the white to reappear. When you shake it, the fluffy white stuff vanishes, but its still colonized.
Per Stamets, you take a fully colonized jar, whack it against a tire or whatever to shake it up and break up the clumps, and spawn.
You didn't do anything wrong, you did exactly what you are supposed to do. Shaking does not harm the colonized grains in any way. Mycelium is tough stuff, don't worry about it.
|
HappyHardcore
Shroomery Jester



Registered: 11/06/05
Posts: 259
Loc: All Over The World
Last seen: 10 years, 10 months
|
Re: Is this WBS ready to spawn? pics, and im confused. [Re: calicyco]
#7410674 - 09/14/07 07:39 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Hmm, I don't know about that. In my last 2 attempts at colonizing rye jars, they both failed after shaking them. The first attempt I had let the jars colonize around 50-60% and I had made sure not to shake too hard as I was aware that it could harm it. Ever since then there was no growth at all and they eventually died and none of them were contaminated. Same thing happened to the 2nd attempt only they were shaken around 20-30% and no growth after that...
Although I'm one of the only people that seems to have had this problem so badly, I just wanted to share my experience with this so that you can see that it is possible.
I've just decided to shake the grains lightly right after inoculation and leave them be until colonized to keep it safe.
|
calicyco
member

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 355
|
Re: Is this WBS ready to spawn? pics, and im confused. [Re: HappyHardcore]
#7410732 - 09/14/07 07:58 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
It wasn't the shaking that caused the failure, I assure you. You may have had contams, dry grain, bad temps, something of that nature. Shaking, roughly even, is standard practice in spawn production. There is simply no other way to break up well colonized spawn, Stamets has even warned that smacking the jars with your hand is a bad idea because of the force needed, he has injured himself badly on broken jars. If Stamets is breaking up spawn with such force that he is breaking the jars with his hand, then I hardly see a problem with too vigorous shaking. How else are you going to get a big clump of colonized spawn out of a quart or gallon jar? You gotta shake it, hard, to break up the clumps into individual spawn points. If I had a large commercial farm and were using gallon jars, I'd get myself a paint mixer and use it at a slower setting to mix up spawn more rapidly, rather than shaking hundreds of jars by hand.
One of the main reasons to use grain or WBS as spawn is its ability to be shaken to break it up. This MASSIVELY shortens colonization time. Colonization time is the key factor in combating contamination. It also is broken up so it can be a great spawn, with many tiny spawn points to colonize your substrate.
If your spawn is failing, look elsewhere for the failure than the shaking process. It is not the shaking that stalls it.
|
HappyHardcore
Shroomery Jester



Registered: 11/06/05
Posts: 259
Loc: All Over The World
Last seen: 10 years, 10 months
|
Re: Is this WBS ready to spawn? pics, and im confused. [Re: calicyco]
#7410787 - 09/14/07 08:14 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
I wonder what else would cause it? The conditions for the jars were very good. I had a TiT setup and jars were kept at optimal temps consistently. The rye had been soaked 24hrs, simmered, and drained nicely before PCing, so it wasnt a moisture problem nor were they too dry. I simply shook them, and after shaking, not one of them continued growth. That happened to me twice, the second time I was being even more precautious than the first so the only thing ive been able to attribute to the mycelium's death was the shaking. And yea, I've heard of many people shaking jars as its in almost every grain tek and it's always seemed to be fine. I just don't know why all the jars would all of the sudden stop growth completely after shaking, twice in a grow
|
Oatman2000
-=Outa Space=-




Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2,877
Loc: Planetary Nebula
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
|
Re: Is this WBS ready to spawn? pics, and im confused. [Re: HappyHardcore]
#7410814 - 09/14/07 08:22 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
i've done it before. I don't recomend it, but it will still work.
i usually just spoon out the "white myc" with a large spoon. Then spawn.
Shaking it up to make it "pourable" shouldn't be in tek's (i had to do it when i didn't use wide mouth jars)
GL
--------------------
Spawning to COIR
My Chocolate Recipe
WBS QUART SPAWN JAR PREPERATION ----------------------------
4-PO-DMT; 4-phosphoryloxy-N,N-dimethltryptamine
|
calicyco
member

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 355
|
Re: Is this WBS ready to spawn? pics, and im confused. [Re: HappyHardcore]
#7410826 - 09/14/07 08:25 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
What was the source of the mycelium? Multi-spore? Strain isolate on agar? Liquid culture?
How are the jars capped?
How long did you wait after shaking?
Many things could have happened. You might have a poor mycelium selection. Contamination is likely as well. BTW you don't need to simmer grain that has been soaked 24 hours. Simply soaking for 24-48 hours is fine, they will have achieved correct moisture content. Simmering will burst the grains, which you definitely do not want.
What kind of grain were you using? Where did you get it? How old was it?
When you dumped the jars, did they smell? What did the grain look/smell like when you broke it up to dump it out?
Perhaps there was some pesticide/fungicide in the grain.
Where did inoculation occur? Open air? Glove box? Flow hood? A barn? :-)
Are you sure the temps were good for the grain? The jars will heat up while colonizing, so you want the ambient temp to be a bit below optimal temps if the jars are packed closely together in a confined space. Heat death will stop colonization.
Since shaking is standard procedure, it cannot be the reason the jars stalled. So by process of elimination, something else must have caused it.
|
Oatman2000
-=Outa Space=-




Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2,877
Loc: Planetary Nebula
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
|
Re: Is this WBS ready to spawn? pics, and im confused. [Re: calicyco]
#7410835 - 09/14/07 08:27 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
/\------ Very good questions to ask.
Best one: When you dumped the jars, did they smell? What did the grain look/smell like when you broke it up to dump it out?
The smell of the grains is key in this hobby. No sour apple smells will do.
--------------------
Spawning to COIR
My Chocolate Recipe
WBS QUART SPAWN JAR PREPERATION ----------------------------
4-PO-DMT; 4-phosphoryloxy-N,N-dimethltryptamine
|
HappyHardcore
Shroomery Jester



Registered: 11/06/05
Posts: 259
Loc: All Over The World
Last seen: 10 years, 10 months
|
Re: Is this WBS ready to spawn? pics, and im confused. [Re: calicyco]
#7410872 - 09/14/07 08:38 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Perhaps so. Maybe it was just by 1/1000 chance that when you shake your jars they will die and I happened to get hit with it twice and nothin I can do about it. Whatever it is, that was my experience and you're supposed to learn from your experience, right? It's because we all experience different things differently from one another that we choose to do things differently, therefor you shake your jars every time and now I do not. So, regarding Nickio, it's best in this hobby, like many other things, to make as many mistakes as you can, but to never make the same mistake twice. Go with either you choose and learn from your experience so that you will not make the same mistake twice
|
calicyco
member

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 355
|
Re: Is this WBS ready to spawn? pics, and im confused. [Re: Oatman2000]
#7410877 - 09/14/07 08:39 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Oatman2000 said: Shaking it up to make it "pourable" shouldn't be in tek's (i had to do it when i didn't use wide mouth jars) GL
Where do you get this information? This is completely wrong.
Page 49, The Mushroom Cultivator by Paul Stamets:
"2. After choosing the best looking spawn masters, break up the grain in each jar by shaking the jars against a tire or slamming them against the palm of the hand...."
He does warn to let it recover for 12 hours or so, to ensure there is no bacterial contamination, the usual reason for stalled spawn. If you see no white stuff reappear, the jar suffered, but NOT from the shaking.
The TMC is THE "tek" for growing mushrooms, most types of mushrooms. Stamets has fruited more mycelium than anybody on the Shroomery. He "slams" the jars to break them up.
In the section describing rye grain as a spawn medium, on page 43:
"RYE: Its availability, low cost and ability to separate into individual kernels are all features recommending its use as a spawn and fruiting medium."
Telling people not to shake grain jars is some sort of strange new idea floating around here that is totally bogus. You folks need to buy a copy of The Mushroom Cultivator, and learn it well. You are focusing on entirely the wrong aspects of failed spawn production. Sorry if I sound mean in this post, I'm just trying to correct false information and get people to understand what is going on. Pointing to the shaking process as a scapegoat for other, harder to identify failure points is bad science and bad mycology.
How do you do grain-grain transfers? With a SPOON? Egads, no wonder people have problems with advice like this. Lets introduce more vectors of contamination, why not just scoop it out with your fingers? Did you autoclave that spoon in an autoclave bag? Sterilized grain is highly susceptible to contamination, pouring a few kernels of loose grain into a jar is risky enough. Scooping grain out of a jar, with its lid off for a good deal of time, is bad bad bad.
|
calicyco
member

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 355
|
Re: Is this WBS ready to spawn? pics, and im confused. [Re: HappyHardcore]
#7410905 - 09/14/07 08:47 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
HappyHardcore said: Perhaps so. Maybe it was just by 1/1000 chance that when you shake your jars they will die and I happened to get hit with it twice and nothin I can do about it. Whatever it is, that was my experience and you're supposed to learn from your experience, right? It's because we all experience different things differently from one another that we choose to do things differently, therefor you shake your jars every time and now I do not. So, regarding Nickio, it's best in this hobby, like many other things, to make as many mistakes as you can, but to never make the same mistake twice. Go with either you choose and learn from your experience so that you will not make the same mistake twice
Alright, if you want to learn from mistakes you didn't make, then go for it. I am really trying to help :-) Mycology is NOT something everybody just learns by trial and error. There are tried and true methods that should be adhered to. You learn by how you deviated from those methods, not by making things up because it makes sense to you, especially when you are condemning practices learned through decades of hard work by experts who make a living doing this every single day.
The number one mistake beginners make, is improvising. Not knowing what they don't know, and then making decisions based on bad data. Its nothing personal, this is a complicated and difficult subject. Not until you have mastered the standard methods should you be deviating. Shake your jars. If they fail, figure out what made them fail. That is how you learn. You learn where you went wrong. Shaking is not a wrong step. Something else WAS. It is crucial to speeding colonization and for doing clean grain-grain transfers.
If you go through the check list of questions I asked above, somewhere in there you will discover the true culprit. If you wish to know, I have provided some ideas on where to look.
(getting down off of soapbox :-)
|
HappyHardcore
Shroomery Jester



Registered: 11/06/05
Posts: 259
Loc: All Over The World
Last seen: 10 years, 10 months
|
Re: Is this WBS ready to spawn? pics, and im confused. [Re: calicyco]
#7410951 - 09/14/07 09:00 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
No worries, all you're providing is constructive criticism. I love learning as much as I can about mycology. Those grow attempts took place over a year ago and it's been long since I've cultivated. Just recently I've attained a great grow area free of unwanted people and an incredible new interest in growing has struck me. I've been on the boards for many many hours this past week reading VERY much. The only thing that I haven't come across in the forums is this very issue. But taking your advice into account, I shall perfect my techniques and perfom experiments with shaking the jars and see what new outcome may come of that. All your help is appreciative
|
Rastaimposta
Apothecary


Registered: 02/21/07
Posts: 227
Last seen: 4 years, 2 months
|
Re: Is this WBS ready to spawn? pics, and im confused. [Re: HappyHardcore]
#7410974 - 09/14/07 09:10 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
HappyHardcore said: Perhaps so. Maybe it was just by 1/1000 chance that when you shake your jars they will die and I happened to get hit with it twice and nothin I can do about it. Whatever it is, that was my experience and you're supposed to learn from your experience, right? It's because we all experience different things differently from one another that we choose to do things differently, therefor you shake your jars every time and now I do not. So, regarding Nickio, it's best in this hobby, like many other things, to make as many mistakes as you can, but to never make the same mistake twice. Go with either you choose and learn from your experience so that you will not make the same mistake twice
I gotta tell you, probably one of the most useful things I read in this forum was that post right there.
|
Xeluc
Traveler



Registered: 04/11/07
Posts: 746
Last seen: 6 years, 16 days
|
Re: Is this WBS ready to spawn? pics, and I'm confused. [Re: Rastaimposta]
#7411021 - 09/14/07 09:24 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
if all your jars contam-ed after being shaken, do you think what may have happened is your jars were already contam-med and shaking them spelled disaster for your already-doomed mycelium? I dunno, that could explain it. technically the advice worked. Too well. Mycelium wasn't the only thing spreading inoculation points. I just don't think shaking would ever cause a contam, because there shouldn't be contams in the first place if you sterilize correctly.
|
HappyHardcore
Shroomery Jester



Registered: 11/06/05
Posts: 259
Loc: All Over The World
Last seen: 10 years, 10 months
|
Re: Is this WBS ready to spawn? pics, and I'm confused. [Re: Xeluc]
#7411102 - 09/14/07 09:47 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
It wasn't that the jars contaminated after shaking them, in fact none of them contammed at all, it was that the myc stopped growing timely right after I had shaken them. But I figure it was due to something a little more underlying; something related to the whole procedure that took place from the beginning to when I shook the jars, so it's not say that because I shook the jars, they stopped growing.
|
The shroomy 1
Luminous beings surround me




Registered: 03/27/07
Posts: 5,543
Loc: The Aether
Last seen: 5 months, 5 days
|
Re: Is this WBS ready to spawn? pics, and im confused. [Re: Nickio]
#7411944 - 09/15/07 03:21 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
I am truly impressed at how much thought and different advice was poured into this thread. I'm thinking by the time you read this, your jar will have recovered and you'll feel silly
--------------------
AMU Q&A thread.
|
Dr_T
Random Dude




Registered: 06/03/07
Posts: 1,839
Loc: Colorado
Last seen: 16 years, 4 months
|
Re: Is this WBS ready to spawn? pics, and im confused. [Re: The shroomy 1]
#7412084 - 09/15/07 05:40 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Wow, I missed a good discussion!
I don't shake WBS up before I spawn it, I just crumble it as I go. Roger says you don't want to mix it through the spawn anyway, you want it in layer. Apparently the myc knits back together and colonizes the spawn better if you do it that way. I haven't done side-by-side test, but it sounds reasonable.
-------------------- Roger Rabbit said: Growing mushrooms is part art, and part science, but it's not magic.
|
Pledge2Educate
Der Pilzkönig



Registered: 09/13/07
Posts: 369
Loc: Central Florida
Last seen: 16 years, 3 months
|
Re: Is this WBS ready to spawn? pics, and im confused. [Re: Nickio]
#7415077 - 09/16/07 12:00 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
There is definately no mycelium on that, and if there is, your jar isn't colonized.
-------------------- Enjoy my Posts? Rate Me
GGreatOne234 said: I've never come across a cow pasture in Florida that did not have No Trespassing signs. Those signs mean stay the f away.
|
eleven34


Registered: 08/26/07
Posts: 307
Loc: Missouri
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
|
Re: Is this WBS ready to spawn? pics, and im confused. [Re: Pledge2Educate]
#7415206 - 09/16/07 01:13 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Calicyco is right 100%. Your supposed to shake it up before casing. The white does go away then comes back. I have done quite a few WBS jars and they all have done that.
It's normal. Shake it up let it break down put it in your tin or whatever let it colonize again. Then case it. Straw is the best for casing so I have heard. And of all the videos I have seen it looks to be the best.
-------------------- "Get your damn hands off me sesame cake"
|
Oatman2000
-=Outa Space=-




Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2,877
Loc: Planetary Nebula
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
|
Re: Is this WBS ready to spawn? pics, and im confused. [Re: calicyco]
#7416068 - 09/16/07 09:43 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Page 49, The Mushroom Cultivator by Paul Stamets:
"2. After choosing the best looking spawn masters, break up the grain in each jar by shaking the jars against a tire or slamming them against the palm of the hand...."
He does warn to let it recover for 12 hours or so, to ensure there is no bacterial contamination, the usual reason for stalled spawn. If you see no white stuff reappear, the jar suffered, but NOT from the shaking.
The TMC is THE "tek" for growing mushrooms, most types of mushrooms. Stamets has fruited more mycelium than anybody on the Shroomery. He "slams" the jars to break them up.
In the section describing rye grain as a spawn medium, on page 43:
--------------------
Spawning to COIR
My Chocolate Recipe
WBS QUART SPAWN JAR PREPERATION ----------------------------
4-PO-DMT; 4-phosphoryloxy-N,N-dimethltryptamine
|
|