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Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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InvisibleDieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
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What is nature? What is natural?
    #7406842 - 09/13/07 10:42 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I posted this as a reply in Mysticism, Religion, & the Paranormal, but I would like a more 'scientific' response and opnion.

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

kotik said:
What about dolly the clone? Or perhaps that mouse they grew a human ear on? These are not exactly "natural," yet exist all the same.


Sure they are natural. They follow all the rules of nature. Nothing can happen that isnt natural. A creature naturally evolved and interacted with another creature that naturally evolved. This interaction created other creatures. This all happened completely under nature's rules. Given an earth and 6 billion years nature creatued mice, sheep, humans, consiouness, and an interaction between them all.

Do you think humans arnt natural? Or consiouness? Usually the only people I know who dont believe humans and humans actions are natural are religious types who feel humans are somehow separate from nature. If this is you, thats fine Ill leave it at that.

But I am interested in where you draw the line between nature and not-nature. Somehow things happen that are not part of nature? If that is the case, I think its time to redefine nature. Is a termite's nest natural? Is a skyscraper natural? They both are of course. Creatures of nature made them both from the laws of nature, and each creature is naturally compelled to make them.

Is a beaver's dam more natural then a humans? If so, why?




What do you think? Am I way off?


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InvisibleMushouse
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Re: What is nature? What is natural? [Re: DieCommie]
    #7406955 - 09/13/07 11:02 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
What do you think? Am I way off?




No, you're right on. I've made that same argument previously.

If one were to say that something is "unnatural," that would be to say that that thing has been influenced by humans. But in the truest sense, since everything is natural (as explained), then there is nothing unnatural.


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OfflineSalvia_Antics
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Re: What is nature? What is natural? [Re: Mushouse]
    #7407495 - 09/14/07 02:33 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Humans have this retarded ability(I think its our nature) to split things up to try and define them.

So someone draws an invisible line that only he can see until he tells others its there. He feels smart cause he defined something from the other thing.

But the truth is he is just making something up then forgeting he made it up.


--------------------

"The dream is dreaming itself"--Kalahari Bushmen


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: What is nature? What is natural? [Re: Salvia_Antics]
    #7408025 - 09/14/07 07:38 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I think the "invisible line" in this case is the source... can it be found or does it have to be produced. However, I get annoyed when people claim that natural things are somehow inherently better than "unnatural" things, as they are basing their claim off of wording rather than scientific research. For example, if I produce water by burning hydrogen in oxygen, is the water I produce somehow worse than water found naturally?


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InvisibleDieCommie


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Re: What is nature? What is natural? [Re: Seuss]
    #7410627 - 09/14/07 07:18 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

can it be found or does it have to be produced.


Well, using my example.. The termite nest had to be produced by termites, and the skyscraper had to be produced by humans.  They can each be found in nature, at various places in the world.

I guess the difference is that one is made by consciousness, and one is made by instinct.  So maybe a definition would be nature is that which is made by instinct/chance and not-nature is that which is made by conscious deliberate actions.  But thats just an argument about definitions...

Deep down though, I still think everything is natural  :tongue2:


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OfflineToTheSummit
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Re: What is nature? What is natural? [Re: DieCommie]
    #7410694 - 09/14/07 07:48 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Everything is natural.  The only exception is Ythan. :smirk:


--------------------
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OfflineSeussA
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Re: What is nature? What is natural? [Re: DieCommie]
    #7410757 - 09/14/07 08:05 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

> The termite nest had to be produced by termites

I was implying by humans... apologies for not being specific. Termite mounds would be natural, caves would be natural, houses built by humans (for some reason) would be unnatural. As I said, I find the distinction to be rather vain.


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OfflineRastaimposta
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Re: What is nature? What is natural? [Re: Seuss]
    #7411153 - 09/14/07 09:59 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

It all depends on the context of the word and how it is used in the sentence. As you have said, since everything obeys the laws of nature, all things must be natural. Now nature and wilderness can and have been interchangable and with that sense things that are not found in the wild, such as a mouse with a human ear, would not be natural.

As we progress in science and the field of medicine, more and more people will call things unnatural. While it is hard to agure with people that make a valid point as saying all things obey the laws of nature, there has to be a line where it will cross and will become unnatural. The mouse with an ear, is it a natural occurance, or did man alter its genes to cause it? Ofcourse man altered its genes, which in my mind is unnatural.

This is not a case of right or wrong, it is just how each individual defines the word nature.


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InvisibleMushouse
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Re: What is nature? What is natural? [Re: Rastaimposta]
    #7411627 - 09/15/07 12:10 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Rastaimposta said:The mouse with an ear, is it a natural occurance, or did man alter its genes to cause it? Ofcourse man altered its genes, which in my mind is unnatural.




Well, actually, the mouse did not have it's genes altered. An ear shaped from cow cartilage was implanted under the mouse's skin and the mouse's body began to nourish and accept the ear.

Since there is no gene altering, do you now consider the ear-mouse to be a natural occurrence? Or do you still consider it unnatural because the ear was placed by humans?

There is a species of wasp that will lay its eggs in the back of a caterpillar. The wasp larvae will hatch inside the caterpillar and feed off of it for a time. Is the wasp egg-containing caterpillar an unnatural occurrence because the eggs were placed by the wasp? Is a wasp a natural occurrence?


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Offlinechubbycharley
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Re: What is nature? What is natural? [Re: Mushouse]
    #7413478 - 09/15/07 02:45 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

i see no difference between instinct and conscious decision or thought.

consciousness is natural.

human consciousness is instinct. when we learn anything an ego develops in a natural process. this ego splits the whole into halves and so on. it calls this half of that half this or that.

everything is semantics.

everything is relative to the other half of that thing that we split this thing off of. this is where differences of opinion come from, this is where war comes from, this is where everything "un-natural" comes from. but remember, it comes from the natural development of human consciousness.

termite consciousness still splits things up, it just doesn't label them, as far as we can tell. human egos like labels. even bees like labels, they just communicate those labels in dances, not words.

i'm not sure where i was going with that, or if i got there, but i hope it added to the discussion somehow :smile:

god speed!


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Invisiblecleeen
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Re: What is nature? What is natural? [Re: chubbycharley]
    #7417325 - 09/16/07 05:37 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Yes, i agree.. consciouness have a different aspect that has its own rules .

The way i was encouraged to see words at philosophy of language classes was that they had a lifespan +-tax. The Word comes into being as a new entity related to an earlier already active word .

The new word would be `~like` the earlier word but must have a difference as well .

So Natural could be seen as a constructed word .. three parts "Nat" "Ur" and "al" .

Heres my off the cuff translation

Nat as in nativity being the physical/mortal creation ..
Ur the first City or the "First" , the Original
Al as in all as in everything in the domain

So Natural would be the whole domain of creation .
1.e. since the big bang or since the rise of the typewriter etc ..

I think Natural historically relates to the entire physical domain as created by the GodForce that is to say the GodForce is seperate from Nature .


--------------------
It's a beautiful lie ..
It's a perfect denial .
Such a beautiful lie to believe in
So beautiful, beautiful it makes me ..


Nikopol: You piece of shit! Your objectives are shit. Your filthy rapist god ambitions are shit. You're full of shit, Horus!

Horus: Coming from a human, remarks like that don't carry much weight.

Nikopol: But all that it is not worth of prodigy of your saliva, Jill.


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Invisiblecleeen
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Re: What is nature? What is natural? [Re: Seuss]
    #7417361 - 09/16/07 05:52 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

For example, if I produce water by burning hydrogen in oxygen, is the water I produce somehow worse than water found naturally?





Historically Yes i believe this would almost be certain .

The colloidal structure of water with mineral content is very significant and rain water was historically very clean oxygenated distilled water which was really very healthy high quality water supply .


--------------------
It's a beautiful lie ..
It's a perfect denial .
Such a beautiful lie to believe in
So beautiful, beautiful it makes me ..


Nikopol: You piece of shit! Your objectives are shit. Your filthy rapist god ambitions are shit. You're full of shit, Horus!

Horus: Coming from a human, remarks like that don't carry much weight.

Nikopol: But all that it is not worth of prodigy of your saliva, Jill.


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OfflineSymmetryGroup8
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Re: What is nature? What is natural? [Re: cleeen]
    #7417404 - 09/16/07 06:05 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

The Universe is pretty natural to me.


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Be like water my friend!


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OfflineRastaimposta
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Re: What is nature? What is natural? [Re: Mushouse]
    #7418397 - 09/16/07 11:04 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Mushouse said:
Quote:

Rastaimposta said:The mouse with an ear, is it a natural occurance, or did man alter its genes to cause it? Ofcourse man altered its genes, which in my mind is unnatural.




Well, actually, the mouse did not have it's genes altered. An ear shaped from cow cartilage was implanted under the mouse's skin and the mouse's body began to nourish and accept the ear.

Since there is no gene altering, do you now consider the ear-mouse to be a natural occurrence? Or do you still consider it unnatural because the ear was placed by humans?

There is a species of wasp that will lay its eggs in the back of a caterpillar. The wasp larvae will hatch inside the caterpillar and feed off of it for a time. Is the wasp egg-containing caterpillar an unnatural occurrence because the eggs were placed by the wasp? Is a wasp a natural occurrence?




Eh, I havent read anything about the mouse, I was mearly using it as an example, next time I will get my facts straight before addressing the subject. Just so no ill words get exchanged, I do actually like intelligent discussions and there are no moral thoughts in my posts, just different definitions of the word "natural".

I still dont consider it a natural occurance, it implies that one can go out and find a mouse with an ear on its back, which is obviously not the case. Unfortunately I dont want to read about the mouse, forgive me for that. The ear introduced into the mouse, the mouse would not have grown an ear if it was left alone.

The wasp, however, is not an isolated incident, that is how they reproduce. Parasitism is found all over, here it comes, nature and is necessary for certian organisms to survive. In this instance, since an entire species relies on parasitism, and it is indeed an innate ability, I can see it as no other way than natural.

There are obviously some things that we will agree on and some things we will have completely different ideas. I find it hard to think "if it can happen, its natural", everything obeys the laws of nature, you cant defy the laws of nature. There has to be a point where you think where you can distinguish natural from unnatural.

Unfortunately, I hate of how poorly I did trying to represent my ideas of the words. So hopefully the next few posts pointing out my obvious mistakes will help me get the much needed metal boost I need to defend my ideas properly.


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InvisibleDieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
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Re: What is nature? What is natural? [Re: Rastaimposta]
    #7418572 - 09/17/07 12:19 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

I still dont consider it a natural occurance, it implies that one can go out and find a mouse with an ear on its back, which is obviously not the case.


But if some other species came to visit earth they would find a mouse with an ear on its back. The one we made! Maybe what is natural depends on the species making the judgment?

The wasp is not an isolated incident, right. Thats how they reproduce. Maybe now there is a new creature called the ear mouse who needs humans to reproduce. New creatures are made all the time in non-human influenced nature by symbiotic relationships. I wonder if you would consider pet dogs, or domestic barn animals natural? Humans selectively breed them. The species was created by humans and perpetuates because of a symbiotic relationship with humans.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: What is nature? What is natural? [Re: cleeen]
    #7418844 - 09/17/07 04:49 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The colloidal structure of water with mineral content is very significant and rain water was historically very clean oxygenated distilled water which was really very healthy high quality water supply .




You are mixing apples and oranges. Water is a molecule composed of two hydrogen atoms covalently bonded to a single oxygen atom. I don't care if I make the water by burning hydrogen in oxygen, or pull it from the ground "naturally", it is impossible to tell the difference. Water with dissolved mineral content isn't water, but instead, is water with dissolved mineral content.

> The Universe is pretty natural to me.

Exactly.


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Just another spore in the wind.


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Invisiblecleeen
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Re: What is nature? What is natural? [Re: Seuss]
    #7418941 - 09/17/07 07:05 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

oK .. so where are you getting the 100% pure 'natural' water from .. because i dont know of any myself .

Point is that there have been few occasions historically where man made items have compared favourably with what has been supplied by the greater natural environment ..

how about another example to test your position .. How about a fish .. can you make a Salmon that compares favourably with a natural Salmon . And i dont mean breed one in a pond .. i mean from scratch ?? ..

I'd also like to see the glass of water you made by burning oxygen and see a test its quality .. because to be honest if you came out of the basement with some glass of water you said you made and asked any random sane person to drink it they would refuse ..

Some hypothetical glass of water ? .. and some hypothetical glass of natural water .. to many assumptions

And the point could be positioned that you never made the hydrogen? or the oxygen nor even the chemical bonding and all the while even sparking a flint over a cigarette lighter is a pretty slim interpretation of "making fire" ..


--------------------
It's a beautiful lie ..
It's a perfect denial .
Such a beautiful lie to believe in
So beautiful, beautiful it makes me ..


Nikopol: You piece of shit! Your objectives are shit. Your filthy rapist god ambitions are shit. You're full of shit, Horus!

Horus: Coming from a human, remarks like that don't carry much weight.

Nikopol: But all that it is not worth of prodigy of your saliva, Jill.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: What is nature? What is natural? [Re: cleeen]
    #7418982 - 09/17/07 07:37 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

> so where are you getting the 100% pure 'natural' water from .. because i dont know of any myself

Exactly the point.  Water is water.  Water with stuff in it is water with stuff in it.  "Natural" is a concept that people attribute to "things" in order to make them sound better somehow.  Marketing at its best.  :smile:


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OfflineSymmetryGroup8
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Re: What is nature? What is natural? [Re: Seuss]
    #7420203 - 09/17/07 03:38 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Yeah. When I say the Universe is natural... It's just a label, a descriptive word. Natural in my case means existence... This universe, everything that goes on in it, is natural.

It's just semantics I guess.


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InvisibleDieCommie


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Re: What is nature? What is natural? [Re: SymmetryGroup8]
    #7421177 - 09/17/07 08:03 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I think its a little more than semantics (just a little).

How we define nature and our role as part of it or separate from it will stage how we think about our role in the environment and how we deal with global warming/habitat destruction.

Those who feel nature is something separate from humans often want to 'preserve' nature. So how it is without humans is the way it should be and the way we should strive to keep it. I dont think humans are separate from nature or the eco-system, we are intertwined with it. Thus, our goal is not to 'preserve' nature, but only to nurture it and make sure we have a healthy eco-system that we can live in. If this means making mice with ears on their back so we can have extra ears, then great. We have created a new being that adds to the diversity of life, while helping us in the process.


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Invisiblecleeen
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Re: What is nature? What is natural? [Re: Seuss]
    #7421759 - 09/17/07 10:31 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> so where are you getting the 100% pure 'natural' water from .. because i dont know of any myself

Exactly the point.  Water is water.  Water with stuff in it is water with stuff in it.  "Natural" is a concept that people attribute to "things" in order to make them sound better somehow.  Marketing at its best.  :smile:





The word "natural" predates the 21C concept of marketing by a fair bit . And whether natural is better or worse than unnatural is entirely value laden  .

The mongol hordes may have killed thousands which was good for them and yet 'bad' for others . The Atomic bomb may have opened our hearts and minds , but did the desert/sea/urban/atmospheric animals and people involved all universally attend to say the explosions were such great progress ?


Furthermore , the positional argument that there is nothing called natural is simply not true .. it is the pre-existent nascent forms of physical matter and their interactions that are not manmade .

The issue as to whether Mankind has ever made anything at all is an interesting one .. sort of akin to forager ants we carry things we find in the environment back to base .. and is it right to claim that the ant returning with something has created it ? ..

To be honest mankinds achievements are more appropriately technological and innovative meaning the act of actual a-priori creation is not there .

We can construct and re-configure stuff that may be novel to us in our limited consciousness moments but it is stuff of the Hubris to pretend that we have actually created .

To be accurate i propose that no two separate glasses of water could ever be completely the same .

The domain of the natural world ends when the ethereal begins .. where the acts of creation beyond the material world of physical objects is said to be .

It is no coincidence that science is at heart the study of the physical world in order to understand more of its substance and interactions . It could be said that science is the study of Nature and technology the engineering application of that information .


--------------------
It's a beautiful lie ..
It's a perfect denial .
Such a beautiful lie to believe in
So beautiful, beautiful it makes me ..


Nikopol: You piece of shit! Your objectives are shit. Your filthy rapist god ambitions are shit. You're full of shit, Horus!

Horus: Coming from a human, remarks like that don't carry much weight.

Nikopol: But all that it is not worth of prodigy of your saliva, Jill.


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InvisibleEgo Death
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Re: What is nature? What is natural? [Re: cleeen]
    #7422632 - 09/18/07 07:43 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Everything,
although the terms often used to mean working in harmony with the planet/universe. There is much morel arguement as to what that harmony should consist of.


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Offlinechubbycharley
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Re: What is nature? What is natural? [Re: Ego Death]
    #7423200 - 09/18/07 11:15 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

so, like i said, it's all semantics. it all depends on how you define what you're talking about.

i think people try too hard to define things. defining things just separates us from "nature". maybe if we suspend our judgments or definitions everything will seem more "natural".

if the actions of man are looked upon in silence, they appear to be the exact same as everything that isn't man. if we stop thinking of ourselves as being separate from nature we realize that anything we do must be "natural" because everything we do is interconnected with the constant flux that is existence. everything we do, everything other animals do, everything plants do, insects do, planets do, stars do, atoms do, electrons do etc. etc... is just an expression of existence that is all equally "natural".


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: What is nature? What is natural? [Re: DieCommie]
    #7436629 - 09/21/07 01:34 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I told my brother this:

You have your thoughts.
You are entirely a part of the universe.
Therefore your thoughts are manifestations of the universe.

He wanted nothing of it and went off complaining about new-age this and that :crankey:

I think that's the bottom line. People believe what they want to believe, and draw the line where they feel it should be drawn.

Ofcourse everything is natural, except in the minds of people who feel something shouldn't be.


--------------------
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