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DieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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What is nature? What is natural?
#7406842 - 09/13/07 10:42 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I posted this as a reply in Mysticism, Religion, & the Paranormal, but I would like a more 'scientific' response and opnion.
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DieCommie said:Quote:
kotik said: What about dolly the clone? Or perhaps that mouse they grew a human ear on? These are not exactly "natural," yet exist all the same.
Sure they are natural. They follow all the rules of nature. Nothing can happen that isnt natural. A creature naturally evolved and interacted with another creature that naturally evolved. This interaction created other creatures. This all happened completely under nature's rules. Given an earth and 6 billion years nature creatued mice, sheep, humans, consiouness, and an interaction between them all.
Do you think humans arnt natural? Or consiouness? Usually the only people I know who dont believe humans and humans actions are natural are religious types who feel humans are somehow separate from nature. If this is you, thats fine Ill leave it at that.
But I am interested in where you draw the line between nature and not-nature. Somehow things happen that are not part of nature? If that is the case, I think its time to redefine nature. Is a termite's nest natural? Is a skyscraper natural? They both are of course. Creatures of nature made them both from the laws of nature, and each creature is naturally compelled to make them.
Is a beaver's dam more natural then a humans? If so, why?
What do you think? Am I way off?
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Mushouse
Mycomancer

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 500
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Re: What is nature? What is natural? [Re: DieCommie]
#7406955 - 09/13/07 11:02 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said: What do you think? Am I way off?
No, you're right on. I've made that same argument previously.
If one were to say that something is "unnatural," that would be to say that that thing has been influenced by humans. But in the truest sense, since everything is natural (as explained), then there is nothing unnatural.
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Salvia_Antics
DMT Convert




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Re: What is nature? What is natural? [Re: Mushouse]
#7407495 - 09/14/07 02:33 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Humans have this retarded ability(I think its our nature) to split things up to try and define them.
So someone draws an invisible line that only he can see until he tells others its there. He feels smart cause he defined something from the other thing.
But the truth is he is just making something up then forgeting he made it up.
--------------------
"The dream is dreaming itself"--Kalahari Bushmen
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



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Re: What is nature? What is natural? [Re: Salvia_Antics]
#7408025 - 09/14/07 07:38 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I think the "invisible line" in this case is the source... can it be found or does it have to be produced. However, I get annoyed when people claim that natural things are somehow inherently better than "unnatural" things, as they are basing their claim off of wording rather than scientific research. For example, if I produce water by burning hydrogen in oxygen, is the water I produce somehow worse than water found naturally?
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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DieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
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Re: What is nature? What is natural? [Re: Seuss]
#7410627 - 09/14/07 07:18 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
can it be found or does it have to be produced.
Well, using my example.. The termite nest had to be produced by termites, and the skyscraper had to be produced by humans. They can each be found in nature, at various places in the world.
I guess the difference is that one is made by consciousness, and one is made by instinct. So maybe a definition would be nature is that which is made by instinct/chance and not-nature is that which is made by conscious deliberate actions. But thats just an argument about definitions...
Deep down though, I still think everything is natural
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ToTheSummit
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Re: What is nature? What is natural? [Re: DieCommie]
#7410694 - 09/14/07 07:48 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Everything is natural. The only exception is Ythan.
-------------------- You invented the wheel....You push the motherfucker!!
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



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Re: What is nature? What is natural? [Re: DieCommie]
#7410757 - 09/14/07 08:05 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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> The termite nest had to be produced by termites
I was implying by humans... apologies for not being specific. Termite mounds would be natural, caves would be natural, houses built by humans (for some reason) would be unnatural. As I said, I find the distinction to be rather vain.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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Rastaimposta
Apothecary


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Re: What is nature? What is natural? [Re: Seuss]
#7411153 - 09/14/07 09:59 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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It all depends on the context of the word and how it is used in the sentence. As you have said, since everything obeys the laws of nature, all things must be natural. Now nature and wilderness can and have been interchangable and with that sense things that are not found in the wild, such as a mouse with a human ear, would not be natural.
As we progress in science and the field of medicine, more and more people will call things unnatural. While it is hard to agure with people that make a valid point as saying all things obey the laws of nature, there has to be a line where it will cross and will become unnatural. The mouse with an ear, is it a natural occurance, or did man alter its genes to cause it? Ofcourse man altered its genes, which in my mind is unnatural.
This is not a case of right or wrong, it is just how each individual defines the word nature.
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Mushouse
Mycomancer

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Re: What is nature? What is natural? [Re: Rastaimposta]
#7411627 - 09/15/07 12:10 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rastaimposta said:The mouse with an ear, is it a natural occurance, or did man alter its genes to cause it? Ofcourse man altered its genes, which in my mind is unnatural.
Well, actually, the mouse did not have it's genes altered. An ear shaped from cow cartilage was implanted under the mouse's skin and the mouse's body began to nourish and accept the ear.
Since there is no gene altering, do you now consider the ear-mouse to be a natural occurrence? Or do you still consider it unnatural because the ear was placed by humans?
There is a species of wasp that will lay its eggs in the back of a caterpillar. The wasp larvae will hatch inside the caterpillar and feed off of it for a time. Is the wasp egg-containing caterpillar an unnatural occurrence because the eggs were placed by the wasp? Is a wasp a natural occurrence?
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chubbycharley
the chubbiest ofthe charleys


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Re: What is nature? What is natural? [Re: Mushouse]
#7413478 - 09/15/07 02:45 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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i see no difference between instinct and conscious decision or thought.
consciousness is natural.
human consciousness is instinct. when we learn anything an ego develops in a natural process. this ego splits the whole into halves and so on. it calls this half of that half this or that.
everything is semantics.
everything is relative to the other half of that thing that we split this thing off of. this is where differences of opinion come from, this is where war comes from, this is where everything "un-natural" comes from. but remember, it comes from the natural development of human consciousness.
termite consciousness still splits things up, it just doesn't label them, as far as we can tell. human egos like labels. even bees like labels, they just communicate those labels in dances, not words.
i'm not sure where i was going with that, or if i got there, but i hope it added to the discussion somehow 
god speed!
-------------------- if i'm just a stoned stoner, sayin some stoned ass shit, please correct me
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cleeen
Stranger



Registered: 05/23/07
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Re: What is nature? What is natural? [Re: chubbycharley]
#7417325 - 09/16/07 05:37 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yes, i agree.. consciouness have a different aspect that has its own rules .
The way i was encouraged to see words at philosophy of language classes was that they had a lifespan +-tax. The Word comes into being as a new entity related to an earlier already active word .
The new word would be `~like` the earlier word but must have a difference as well .
So Natural could be seen as a constructed word .. three parts "Nat" "Ur" and "al" .
Heres my off the cuff translation
Nat as in nativity being the physical/mortal creation .. Ur the first City or the "First" , the Original Al as in all as in everything in the domain
So Natural would be the whole domain of creation . 1.e. since the big bang or since the rise of the typewriter etc ..
I think Natural historically relates to the entire physical domain as created by the GodForce that is to say the GodForce is seperate from Nature .
-------------------- It's a beautiful lie .. It's a perfect denial . Such a beautiful lie to believe in So beautiful, beautiful it makes me .. Nikopol: You piece of shit! Your objectives are shit. Your filthy rapist god ambitions are shit. You're full of shit, Horus! Horus: Coming from a human, remarks like that don't carry much weight. Nikopol: But all that it is not worth of prodigy of your saliva, Jill.
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cleeen
Stranger



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Re: What is nature? What is natural? [Re: Seuss]
#7417361 - 09/16/07 05:52 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
For example, if I produce water by burning hydrogen in oxygen, is the water I produce somehow worse than water found naturally?
Historically Yes i believe this would almost be certain .
The colloidal structure of water with mineral content is very significant and rain water was historically very clean oxygenated distilled water which was really very healthy high quality water supply .
-------------------- It's a beautiful lie .. It's a perfect denial . Such a beautiful lie to believe in So beautiful, beautiful it makes me .. Nikopol: You piece of shit! Your objectives are shit. Your filthy rapist god ambitions are shit. You're full of shit, Horus! Horus: Coming from a human, remarks like that don't carry much weight. Nikopol: But all that it is not worth of prodigy of your saliva, Jill.
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SymmetryGroup8
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Re: What is nature? What is natural? [Re: cleeen]
#7417404 - 09/16/07 06:05 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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The Universe is pretty natural to me.
-------------------- Be like water my friend!
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Rastaimposta
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Re: What is nature? What is natural? [Re: Mushouse]
#7418397 - 09/16/07 11:04 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mushouse said:
Quote:
Rastaimposta said:The mouse with an ear, is it a natural occurance, or did man alter its genes to cause it? Ofcourse man altered its genes, which in my mind is unnatural.
Well, actually, the mouse did not have it's genes altered. An ear shaped from cow cartilage was implanted under the mouse's skin and the mouse's body began to nourish and accept the ear.
Since there is no gene altering, do you now consider the ear-mouse to be a natural occurrence? Or do you still consider it unnatural because the ear was placed by humans?
There is a species of wasp that will lay its eggs in the back of a caterpillar. The wasp larvae will hatch inside the caterpillar and feed off of it for a time. Is the wasp egg-containing caterpillar an unnatural occurrence because the eggs were placed by the wasp? Is a wasp a natural occurrence?
Eh, I havent read anything about the mouse, I was mearly using it as an example, next time I will get my facts straight before addressing the subject. Just so no ill words get exchanged, I do actually like intelligent discussions and there are no moral thoughts in my posts, just different definitions of the word "natural".
I still dont consider it a natural occurance, it implies that one can go out and find a mouse with an ear on its back, which is obviously not the case. Unfortunately I dont want to read about the mouse, forgive me for that. The ear introduced into the mouse, the mouse would not have grown an ear if it was left alone.
The wasp, however, is not an isolated incident, that is how they reproduce. Parasitism is found all over, here it comes, nature and is necessary for certian organisms to survive. In this instance, since an entire species relies on parasitism, and it is indeed an innate ability, I can see it as no other way than natural.
There are obviously some things that we will agree on and some things we will have completely different ideas. I find it hard to think "if it can happen, its natural", everything obeys the laws of nature, you cant defy the laws of nature. There has to be a point where you think where you can distinguish natural from unnatural.
Unfortunately, I hate of how poorly I did trying to represent my ideas of the words. So hopefully the next few posts pointing out my obvious mistakes will help me get the much needed metal boost I need to defend my ideas properly.
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DieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: What is nature? What is natural? [Re: Rastaimposta]
#7418572 - 09/17/07 12:19 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
I still dont consider it a natural occurance, it implies that one can go out and find a mouse with an ear on its back, which is obviously not the case.
But if some other species came to visit earth they would find a mouse with an ear on its back. The one we made! Maybe what is natural depends on the species making the judgment?
The wasp is not an isolated incident, right. Thats how they reproduce. Maybe now there is a new creature called the ear mouse who needs humans to reproduce. New creatures are made all the time in non-human influenced nature by symbiotic relationships. I wonder if you would consider pet dogs, or domestic barn animals natural? Humans selectively breed them. The species was created by humans and perpetuates because of a symbiotic relationship with humans.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



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Re: What is nature? What is natural? [Re: cleeen]
#7418844 - 09/17/07 04:49 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
The colloidal structure of water with mineral content is very significant and rain water was historically very clean oxygenated distilled water which was really very healthy high quality water supply .
You are mixing apples and oranges. Water is a molecule composed of two hydrogen atoms covalently bonded to a single oxygen atom. I don't care if I make the water by burning hydrogen in oxygen, or pull it from the ground "naturally", it is impossible to tell the difference. Water with dissolved mineral content isn't water, but instead, is water with dissolved mineral content.
> The Universe is pretty natural to me.
Exactly.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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cleeen
Stranger



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Re: What is nature? What is natural? [Re: Seuss]
#7418941 - 09/17/07 07:05 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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oK .. so where are you getting the 100% pure 'natural' water from .. because i dont know of any myself .
Point is that there have been few occasions historically where man made items have compared favourably with what has been supplied by the greater natural environment ..
how about another example to test your position .. How about a fish .. can you make a Salmon that compares favourably with a natural Salmon . And i dont mean breed one in a pond .. i mean from scratch ?? ..
I'd also like to see the glass of water you made by burning oxygen and see a test its quality .. because to be honest if you came out of the basement with some glass of water you said you made and asked any random sane person to drink it they would refuse ..
Some hypothetical glass of water ? .. and some hypothetical glass of natural water .. to many assumptions
And the point could be positioned that you never made the hydrogen? or the oxygen nor even the chemical bonding and all the while even sparking a flint over a cigarette lighter is a pretty slim interpretation of "making fire" ..
-------------------- It's a beautiful lie .. It's a perfect denial . Such a beautiful lie to believe in So beautiful, beautiful it makes me .. Nikopol: You piece of shit! Your objectives are shit. Your filthy rapist god ambitions are shit. You're full of shit, Horus! Horus: Coming from a human, remarks like that don't carry much weight. Nikopol: But all that it is not worth of prodigy of your saliva, Jill.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



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Re: What is nature? What is natural? [Re: cleeen]
#7418982 - 09/17/07 07:37 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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> so where are you getting the 100% pure 'natural' water from .. because i dont know of any myself
Exactly the point. Water is water. Water with stuff in it is water with stuff in it. "Natural" is a concept that people attribute to "things" in order to make them sound better somehow. Marketing at its best.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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SymmetryGroup8
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Re: What is nature? What is natural? [Re: Seuss]
#7420203 - 09/17/07 03:38 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yeah. When I say the Universe is natural... It's just a label, a descriptive word. Natural in my case means existence... This universe, everything that goes on in it, is natural.
It's just semantics I guess.
-------------------- Be like water my friend!
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DieCommie


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Re: What is nature? What is natural? [Re: SymmetryGroup8]
#7421177 - 09/17/07 08:03 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I think its a little more than semantics (just a little).
How we define nature and our role as part of it or separate from it will stage how we think about our role in the environment and how we deal with global warming/habitat destruction.
Those who feel nature is something separate from humans often want to 'preserve' nature. So how it is without humans is the way it should be and the way we should strive to keep it. I dont think humans are separate from nature or the eco-system, we are intertwined with it. Thus, our goal is not to 'preserve' nature, but only to nurture it and make sure we have a healthy eco-system that we can live in. If this means making mice with ears on their back so we can have extra ears, then great. We have created a new being that adds to the diversity of life, while helping us in the process.
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