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InvisibleIcelander
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Horrifying in it's vastness.
    #7400657 - 09/12/07 01:03 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Having had the time to let things sink in over fifty some years it has become apparent to me that whatever constitutes the whole of reality is vast beyond anything I can contemplate.

When I was a kid life seemed somewhat simple and straightforward although confusing, but with the solid belief that everything would come clear with time.

I listen to the posts here of those who struggle with day to day living and keeping heart and mind together. Everyone wants definitive answers to the problems and questions of life but they never seem to come up straightforward as we would like. There is a murkiness to our ability to understand the meanings and purpose for everything. Truths change as awareness grows but the ultimate knowledge we seek stays just out ahead the same distance, unknowable and expanding exponentially with our ability to contemplate life.

The fact that each of us are ultimately alone as far as being able to share our innermost experience accurately with others and the fact that we will at some time experience loss and death leads many to quiet desperation at times. Plus growing, and for those not too afraid, having to give up tightly held beliefs such as God, country, purpose, ultimate meaning, and realizing that we do not know answers to seemingly important questions, leaves one, at moments of clarity, confronted with the magnitude of the immensity of whatever it is that is happening in this unknowable experience.

"The unknowable is the indescribable, the unthinkable, the unrealizable. It is something that will never be known to us, and yet it is there , dazzling and at the same time horrifying in its vastness." -don Juan Matus

One may at one time realize the futility of trying to understand the unknowable. Yet something in our minds or programs cannot let go and we continue in overt or covert ways to daily strive to have an answer as if that could somehow save us from how infinity in it's horrifying vastness makes us feel.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (09/12/07 02:48 PM)


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Offlinebackfromthedead
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Re: Horrifying in it's vastness. [Re: Icelander]
    #7401172 - 09/12/07 03:43 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

"One may at one time realize the futility of trying to understand the unknowable."

What, in your opinion, designates something as unknowable??
Why??


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Horrifying in it's vastness. [Re: backfromthedead]
    #7401185 - 09/12/07 03:49 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

What, in your opinion, designates something as unknowable??
Why??


Something you can't know. Why? Cause you and nobody else can figure it out.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinebackfromthedead
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Re: Horrifying in it's vastness. [Re: Icelander]
    #7401266 - 09/12/07 04:14 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

"Cause you and nobody else can figure it out."

We will always be standing at the threshold if nobody takes on the task of figuring the next 'thing' out because it is 'unknowable'.
Technology is now moving at quite a whirl, no??
Science has developed quite an arsenal of gadgets and instruments of measurement, yes??
I refuse to believe that anything is unknowable.
We know more and more everyday if into making progress.
I think we are.

(Ecclesiastes 1:9-14 NIV) "What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun."


--------------------


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Horrifying in it's vastness. [Re: backfromthedead]
    #7401280 - 09/12/07 04:19 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

You can believe anything you want but IMO there is a vast difference between the unknown and the unknowable.

With a mind that works to a finite scale the infinite is a little difficult. Except maybe for you.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinebackfromthedead
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Re: Horrifying in it's vastness. [Re: Icelander]
    #7401324 - 09/12/07 04:35 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

"You can believe anything you..."

You're kidding.:blazed:

"Except maybe for you."

The vast difference is simply: where you label something unknowable I choose to view it as though we haven't made it there yet.

"With a mind that works to a finite scale..."

Oh, dang.  Nevermind.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Horrifying in it's vastness. [Re: Icelander]
    #7401366 - 09/12/07 04:48 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Something unknowable is something you can't know.

I come here regularly to pick up little jewels like this. :yesnod:


--------------------


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Horrifying in it's vastness. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7401379 - 09/12/07 04:51 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I had to explain it in understandable terms.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Horrifying in it's vastness. [Re: Icelander]
    #7401400 - 09/12/07 04:56 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Something understandable is something you can't stand.


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Offlinebackfromthedead
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Re: Horrifying in it's vastness. [Re: Icelander]
    #7401403 - 09/12/07 04:56 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Ya'll are so GOOD.:eek:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Horrifying in it's vastness. [Re: backfromthedead]
    #7401412 - 09/12/07 04:58 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Boredom + drugs is a powerful catalyst.


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: Horrifying in it's vastness. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7401433 - 09/12/07 05:03 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Something unknowable is something you can't know.

I come here regularly to pick up little jewels like this. :yesnod:




:lol:  :thumbup:




>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Horrifying in it's vastness. [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #7401458 - 09/12/07 05:10 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Its what keeps us coming back for more - to fill that inner hunger for knowledge and wisdom.


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Horrifying in it's vastness. [Re: backfromthedead]
    #7401925 - 09/12/07 07:01 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

backfromthedead said:
I refuse to believe that anything is unknowable.




This isn't really a question of belief or disbelief. Beliefs (or disbelief, there's not really a difference) only reinforce the walls on the box that we have put ourselves in.

If you refuse to consider the question of if there is an unknowable or an unconditioned, then there really is no point in me typing this, or you reading this. But whatever. It is said that mind cannot know itself anymore than fire can burn itself or a sword cut itself. But you can't just accept that. That would be foolish. So you've got to investigate. Find out! That's what I'm doing. I'm investigating. Can the mind know the mind? Can I know who I am? Who am I? What is this? These are all essentially the same question.

So don't merely believe that nothing is unknowable, investigate!


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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Invisibleelbisivni
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Re: Horrifying in it's vastness. [Re: Icelander]
    #7402885 - 09/12/07 10:23 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Having had the time to let things sink in over fifty some years it has become apparent to me that whatever constitutes the whole of reality is vast beyond anything I can contemplate.

When I was a kid life seemed somewhat simple and straightforward although confusing, but with the solid belief that everything would come clear with time.

I listen to the posts here of those who struggle with day to day living and keeping heart and mind together. Everyone wants definitive answers to the problems and questions of life but they never seem to come up straightforward as we would like. There is a murkiness to our ability to understand the meanings and purpose for everything. Truths change as awareness grows but the ultimate knowledge we seek stays just out ahead the same distance, unknowable and expanding exponentially with our ability to contemplate life.

The fact that each of us are ultimately alone as far as being able to share our innermost experience accurately with others and the fact that we will at some time experience loss and death leads many to quiet desperation at times. Plus growing, and for those not too afraid, having to give up tightly held beliefs such as God, country, purpose, ultimate meaning, and realizing that we do not know answers to seemingly important questions, leaves one, at moments of clarity, confronted with the magnitude of the immensity of whatever it is that is happening in this unknowable experience.

"The unknowable is the indescribable, the unthinkable, the unrealizable. It is something that will never be known to us, and yet it is there , dazzling and at the same time horrifying in its vastness." -don Juan Matus

One may at one time realize the futility of trying to understand the unknowable. Yet something in our minds or programs cannot let go and we continue in overt or covert ways to daily strive to have an answer as if that could somehow save us from how infinity in it's horrifying vastness makes us feel.



That was pretty good

:rockman:


--------------------
From dust you are made and to dust you shall return.


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Offlinebackfromthedead
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Re: Horrifying in it's vastness. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7403114 - 09/12/07 11:11 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Not full yet??
Should somebody rent a steam shovel??
Dang, what are they backfilling anyway the Dead Sea??
Hunger.
Oh, I see it...
Its just a big mouth??
Feed it already.


--------------------


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Invisibleelbisivni
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Re: Horrifying in it's vastness. [Re: backfromthedead]
    #7403181 - 09/12/07 11:34 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

backfromthedead said:
We will always be standing at the threshold if nobody takes on the task of figuring the next 'thing' out because it is 'unknowable'.
Technology is now moving at quite a whirl, no??
Science has developed quite an arsenal of gadgets and instruments of measurement, yes??
I refuse to believe that anything is unknowable.
We know more and more everyday if into making progress.
I think we are.




good point


--------------------
From dust you are made and to dust you shall return.


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Horrifying in it's vastness. [Re: backfromthedead]
    #7403232 - 09/12/07 11:54 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

backfromthedead said:
"Cause you and nobody else can figure it out."

We will always be standing at the threshold if nobody takes on the task of figuring the next 'thing' out because it is 'unknowable'.
Technology is now moving at quite a whirl, no??
Science has developed quite an arsenal of gadgets and instruments of measurement, yes??
I refuse to believe that anything is unknowable.
We know more and more everyday if into making progress.
I think we are.

(Ecclesiastes 1:9-14 NIV) "What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun."




Good luck with that. How do you know you know what you know, and that you haven't decieved yourself? :monkeydance:

How do you know that the foundations of knowledge we have built our entire society on aren't somehow flawed? There are many ways of knowing, of concieving of our world and our relationships to it, some of which have been lost to 'progress.' We can build the most elaborate models we can concieve of to explain reality, but they will never be more than models that help us get around and not be stifled by dumbfounded unknowing. "Don't look at my finger, look at the moon." This is all our knowledge systems are, fingers pointing at the moon. At some point, if we wish to live, we must make some sort of leap, a choice of what we wish to make of ourselves and experience. This leap cannot take away our unknowing, but it is much more authentic than devoting oneself to an ideology that tidily packages answers so that one may avoid facing themselves. :shrug: Deal with it.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Horrifying in it's vastness. [Re: elbisivni]
    #7404853 - 09/13/07 03:46 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I thought so. It's exactally what I am facing in my life these days.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: Horrifying in it's vastness. [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7406963 - 09/13/07 11:04 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

NiamhNyx said:
Good luck with that. How do you know you know what you know, and that you haven't decieved yourself? :monkeydance:
.
How do you know that the foundations of knowledge we have built our entire society on aren't somehow flawed? There are many ways of knowing, of concieving of our world and our relationships to it, some of which have been lost to 'progress.' We can build the most elaborate models we can concieve of to explain reality, but they will never be more than models that help us get around and not be stifled by dumbfounded unknowing. "Don't look at my finger, look at the moon." This is all our knowledge systems are, fingers pointing at the moon. At some point, if we wish to live, we must make some sort of leap, a choice of what we wish to make of ourselves and experience. This leap cannot take away our unknowing, but it is much more authentic than devoting oneself to an ideology that tidily packages answers so that one may avoid facing themselves. :shrug: Deal with it.




Nice post....!    :smile:  :thumbup:
One could surmise from this that it takes a little "faith" to take part in reality itself....    :wink:


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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Offlinebackfromthedead
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Re: Horrifying in it's vastness. [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #7408550 - 09/14/07 10:48 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

"How do you know that the foundations of knowledge we have built our entire society on aren't somehow flawed?"

You do know that it is possible to find this out as in learn it and thus know this.
Derp.
Once again door is...  OPEN.  W  T  F??

"This leap cannot take away our unknowing, but it is much more authentic than devoting oneself to an ideology that tidily packages answers so that one may avoid facing themselves. :shrug: Deal with it."

Would that not be a leap.  Then if into leaping, leap, leap, leap into the unknown and effectively transfer to the known.
Um...  Learning.  Progress.  FORWARD.  Making the unknown known??
Oh, packages are blister packed, :sorry:.

"Deal with it."
You should try it out sometime.:shrug:


--------------------


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Horrifying in it's vastness. [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #7408566 - 09/14/07 10:53 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I suppose that is what I said. I trust my sense perception, for the most part, because to my knowledge it has never done me wrong. I trust that my house will be intact when I return home after school. I trust that the 'law' of gravity isn't going to instantaneously stop functioning, thrusting me into the abyss of outer space. I believe these things because I have found no reason not to. This does not mean that I truly know anything with any grand and total certainty, but rather that I have concluded sufficient reason to go on trusting my perceptions. This is basically what empricism is about. They don't deny the insolubility of the problem of skepticism, they simply shrug and get on with it. For the record, although I find empiricism useful, I am no empiricist.


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Horrifying in it's vastness. [Re: backfromthedead]
    #7408588 - 09/14/07 11:01 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

backfromthedead said:
"How do you know that the foundations of knowledge we have built our entire society on aren't somehow flawed?"

You do know that it is possible to find this out as in learn it and thus know this.
Derp.
Once again door is...  OPEN.  W  T  F??

"This leap cannot take away our unknowing, but it is much more authentic than devoting oneself to an ideology that tidily packages answers so that one may avoid facing themselves. :shrug: Deal with it."

Would that not be a leap.  Then if into leaping, leap, leap, leap into the unknown and effectively transfer to the known.
Um...  Learning.  Progress.  FORWARD.  Making the unknown known??
Oh, packages are blister packed, :sorry:.

"Deal with it."
You should try it out sometime.:shrug:




You just managed to not make an argument at all, but pretend that you have. If you care to actually tackle what I said, please be my guest; perhaps we can actually engage in some kind of discourse. "WTF" and incoherent rambling are not arguments, they are patronizing and self-aggrandizing vomit.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Horrifying in it's vastness. [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7408589 - 09/14/07 11:02 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

You noticed.:lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinebackfromthedead
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Re: Horrifying in it's vastness. [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7408644 - 09/14/07 11:21 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Well.:confused:

"Good luck with that. How do you know you know what you know, and that you haven't deceived yourself?"

I know nothing.  I have ideas.  Instead of sitting in stifled amazement at the 'unknowable' I choose to think...  'one day we might'.
This is my reality right.
Deceived??
You are not??  How do YOU know??  Are you sure??  Please.:thumbdown:

How do you know that the foundations of knowledge we have built our entire society on aren't somehow flawed?

OF COURSE, this is a possibility.  :lol:
And like I said:
You do know that it is possible to find this out, right??
Making this known??
I would venture to guess that it is technology and science that would be the ways and means probing this 'unknown' element of the universe.
Of course if the results were to be in any way accepted.


There are many ways of knowing, of concieving of our world and our relationships to it, some of which have been lost to 'progress.' We can build the most elaborate models we can concieve of to explain reality, but they will never be more than models that help us get around and not be stifled by dumbfounded unknowing. "Don't look at my finger, look at the moon." This is all our knowledge systems are, fingers pointing at the moon. At some point, if we wish to live, we must make some sort of leap, a choice of what we wish to make of ourselves and experience.


Yes.
And what in your opinion is going to produce this leap if no body cares??

I was thinking less along the lines of models and more of direct experience however possible, ya know??


--------------------


Edited by backfromthedead (09/14/07 11:25 AM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Horrifying in it's vastness. [Re: backfromthedead]
    #7408747 - 09/14/07 11:49 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

sitting in stifled amazement at the 'unknowable'

No ones doing this as far as I know. stifled?

But I think the problem here is ones lack of perception on the vastness of the unknowable. People who think on the surface most likely haven't and may never really explore this. It is far too frightening for most folk. It's so easy to pass it off with a slick comment or two and go about your business, whatever that might be.

But from your posts I would say you really don't have an idea of what my thread is attempting to convey.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineWindows
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Re: Horrifying in it's vastness. [Re: Icelander]
    #7409573 - 09/14/07 02:49 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Have you ever taken a philosophy class or even studied philosophy?

What you're talking about sounds pretty incoherent. I don't think you are even using an working definition of "known" and "unknown". I will present this thread to another forum for further criticism.


--------------------


Edited by Windows (09/14/07 02:54 PM)


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InvisibleEternalCowabunga
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Re: Horrifying in it's vastness. [Re: Icelander]
    #7409600 - 09/14/07 02:55 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Infinity can be horrifying to me because I've spent most of my life attaining comfort through trying to rationalize the world. In that moment, where you see the limitations of your perceptions and at the same time see that you can't step out of time to understand what the hell is going on... it's intense  :rockon:


--------------------


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Horrifying in it's vastness. [Re: Windows]
    #7409689 - 09/14/07 03:13 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Windows said:
Have you ever taken a philosophy class or even studied philosophy?

What you're talking about sounds pretty incoherent. I don't think you are even using an working definition of "known" and "unknown". I will present this thread to another forum for further criticism.




Somebody's unable to make a coherent point and needs back-up. :smirk:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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OfflineWindows
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Re: Horrifying in it's vastness. [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7409709 - 09/14/07 03:16 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Would you like to enter a formal debate with me? =)


--------------------


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Horrifying in it's vastness. [Re: Windows]
    #7409736 - 09/14/07 03:22 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Until now you haven't presented anything to debate upon... :confused:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Horrifying in it's vastness. [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7409768 - 09/14/07 03:27 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

What, you don't want to debate whether or not Icelander has taken a philosophy class or independently studied philosophy?  Or whether or not his ideas are expressed coherently?  Or whether he is using the dictionary definitions of "known" and "unknown"?  :lol:

I know, let's debate whether or not we have something to debate!  :smile:


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Horrifying in it's vastness. [Re: Veritas]
    #7409775 - 09/14/07 03:29 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

:lol:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Horrifying in it's vastness. [Re: dblaney]
    #7410039 - 09/14/07 04:32 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

dblaney said:
Quote:

backfromthedead said:
I refuse to believe that anything is unknowable.




This isn't really a question of belief or disbelief. Beliefs (or disbelief, there's not really a difference) only reinforce the walls on the box that we have put ourselves in.

If you refuse to consider the question of if there is an unknowable or an unconditioned, then there really is no point in me typing this, or you reading this. But whatever. It is said that mind cannot know itself anymore than fire can burn itself or a sword cut itself. But you can't just accept that. That would be foolish. So you've got to investigate. Find out! That's what I'm doing. I'm investigating. Can the mind know the mind? Can I know who I am? Who am I? What is this? These are all essentially the same question.

So don't merely believe that nothing is unknowable, investigate!




Young dogs often chase their own tails. Once in a while they get it, but usually only for a moment. Many of us live for such moments with the hope that the individual moments will finally be seen as just One moment.

Then there are those who go through life with their heads up their asses, awaiting the great moment, when their savior returns, trailing clouds of glory, to remove their heads from their asses for them. That moment never arrives.


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Horrifying in it's vastness. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7410165 - 09/14/07 05:02 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Indeed. But, I don't like making assumptions, so would you be kind enough to clarify specifically what your point is, or are you just tossing around poetic images?


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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Re: Horrifying in it's vastness. [Re: Veritas]
    #7410590 - 09/14/07 07:00 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Ah, the debateless debate.

Buy two and get a 10% rebate. (See: 10% of debate usage myth.)


--------------------


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Re: Horrifying in it's vastness. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7410746 - 09/14/07 08:02 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Thread advertiser :lol:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Horrifying in it's vastness. [Re: dblaney]
    #7411176 - 09/14/07 10:04 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Just tossing.


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Horrifying in it's vastness. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7411507 - 09/14/07 11:31 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

:cool:

I love poetry and and poetic images! I ordered a book of poems by Rumi a few weeks ago, but the damned thing STILL hasn't arrived. And I've ordered and receive a couple books in the interim. Ah well, can't win them all I guess.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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Re: Horrifying in it's vastness. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7411666 - 09/15/07 12:24 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Buy two and get a 10% rebate. (See: 10% of debate usage myth.)




Can I get mine with cheeze~ pleeze~.....?


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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OfflineArchemetis
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Re: Horrifying in it's vastness. [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #7412446 - 09/15/07 08:54 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)


it seems that some of the truths we've been discussing in this thread and others in the same vein should be more liberating than horrifying. i understand this intellectually, but i myself am also horrified, and lost, and broken, in the face of the void. at least we're getting closer.

i think the remaining puzzle piece is complete acceptance of this infinite emptiness. if we could overcome our shock and disappointment without becoming bitter about all this, all that would remain would be liberation from the suffering creation has bound us to.

is it finally apathy that is required? lets call it distanced compassion instead.


Edited by Archemetis (09/15/07 08:55 AM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Horrifying in it's vastness. [Re: Windows]
    #7412688 - 09/15/07 10:33 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Windows said:
Have you ever taken a philosophy class or even studied philosophy?

What you're talking about sounds pretty incoherent. I don't think you are even using an working definition of "known" and "unknown". I will present this thread to another forum for further criticism.




I have a degree in philosophy at Thomas Jefferson Collage in Michigan.(not) The fact that it sounds incoherent to you makes perfect sense to me.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Horrifying in it's vastness. [Re: Archemetis]
    #7412700 - 09/15/07 10:38 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

If we could overcome our shock and disappointment without becoming bitter about all this, all that would remain would be liberation from the suffering creation has bound us to.




I agree, with one exception: we have bound ourselves to suffering. Being embodied has bound us to experiencing pain and pleasure, but suffering is entirely optional.


Edited by Veritas (09/15/07 10:53 AM)


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Re: Horrifying in it's vastness. [Re: Veritas]
    #7412800 - 09/15/07 11:15 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

:thumbup: Right o


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineArchemetis
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Re: Horrifying in it's vastness. [Re: Icelander]
    #7419015 - 09/17/07 08:10 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

aye, its a learning process i suppose


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Re: Horrifying in it's vastness. [Re: Windows]
    #7420144 - 09/17/07 03:25 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Scary, :whoa: a "formal" debate.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineFrenziedTortoise
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Re: Horrifying in it's vastness. [Re: Icelander]
    #7420309 - 09/17/07 04:10 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Descartes once undertook to explore what we ultimately can and cannot know. He reasoned that any given subject can be certain of only one thing: that he/she exists. The whole thing rests upon ultimate truth values. Descartes considered that something is true only when nothing conceivable is incompatible with the proposition's ramifications. So every proposition was battered by a series of "what if" scenarios: what if I'm just a brain in a vat, fed with electrical impulse, matrix style, could I ever tell reality from my electrically manifested world? Descartes' answer was no (he used a demon who was conjuring his sensual world around him instead of the brain in a vat scenario). He found he could answer only one question in the affirmative: Do I exist? Obviously the asking gave the answer.

His thoughts on this have come to be known as Cartesian Skepticism if anyone wants to check it out.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Horrifying in it's vastness. [Re: Icelander]
    #7420423 - 09/17/07 04:51 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Scary, :whoa: a "formal" debate.




You'll have to rent a tux.  :wink:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Horrifying in it's vastness. [Re: Veritas]
    #7421421 - 09/17/07 09:00 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Cuz if he is going to be impotent, he should look impotent! :rofl2:


--------------------


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Re: Horrifying in it's vastness. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7423024 - 09/18/07 10:33 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

:albundy:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibledorkus
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Re: Horrifying in it's vastness. [Re: Veritas]
    #7423309 - 09/18/07 11:38 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Quote:

If we could overcome our shock and disappointment without becoming bitter about all this, all that would remain would be liberation from the suffering creation has bound us to.




I agree, with one exception: we have bound ourselves to suffering. Being embodied has bound us to experiencing pain and pleasure, but suffering is entirely optional.





What about physical pain? Allen Ginsberg once said that his fear was the physical pain he might have to endure before or while in the process of dying. I'm not so sure that all fear is rooted in death-anxiety anymore. Would anyone be able to choose not to suffer while SHers limbs were torn off slowly? I suspect at one point the brain will be so flooded with painkilling chemicals that the pain could turn into a blissful experience of extreme awareness, projecting out of body etc, but still some of that pain would have been very pure suffering whether resisted or not.


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Re: Horrifying in it's vastness. [Re: dorkus]
    #7423540 - 09/18/07 12:34 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

As I said: Being embodied has bound us to experiencing pain and pleasure.  :shrug:

Emotional suffering is the really nasty stuff, and it is rooted in neurosis, not in sensation.


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Invisibledorkus
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Re: Horrifying in it's vastness. [Re: Veritas]
    #7423621 - 09/18/07 12:51 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I know about emotional suffering. It can be very nasty. I do suspect that some physical suffering can be horrible too. I'm sure some people having gone through heavy torture remember and suffered more intensely through this, than through their neurosis. It might have healed the neurosis though, in some.

I misread you, by bound I thought you meant that we chose to suffer when experiencing pain. Translation error. *tsk, tsk to the yellow fish*


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Re: Horrifying in it's vastness. [Re: dorkus]
    #7423651 - 09/18/07 12:57 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I have found over and over that my fear of pain is bound to make the experience of pain, more intense.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Horrifying in it's vastness. [Re: dorkus]
    #7423673 - 09/18/07 01:02 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

The question which arises for me about physical pain is: do we allow ourselves to experience the pain as-is, or do we overlay suffering onto the sensation by resisting and refusing the experience itself?

I gave birth to both my sons without the use of pain medication, and I discovered an amazing difference between experiencing pain and fighting pain. When I accepted the painful nature of my physical experience, and ceased to demand an alternate version of reality, my perception of the pain itself was changed. I did everything I could to relax into the pain, which is the opposite of our reflexive reaction.

It seems to me that this is applicable to the experience of life in general--we know that there will be pain, we can accept that reality (though we may not like it), and we can cease to demand an alternate version. We can relax into the pain/pleasure aspects of our life experience, and reduce the emotional suffering created by neurosis.


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Re: Horrifying in it's vastness. [Re: Veritas]
    #7423727 - 09/18/07 01:13 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Awesome :heart:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Invisibledorkus
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Re: Horrifying in it's vastness. [Re: Veritas]
    #7423729 - 09/18/07 01:14 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Couldn't have agreed more. I've done some experimenting with this and burning objects. It has been such learning experiences, because it works on all levels. Jumping all over the place with the mind scattered will make all pain worse, breathing and diving into it will make it warm and more like a vibration. That's why I said "whether resisted or not" in my initial post though.


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Re: Horrifying in it's vastness. [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7423734 - 09/18/07 01:15 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Awesome :heart:




:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Horrifying in it's vastness. [Re: Veritas]
    #7423782 - 09/18/07 01:29 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Acceptance of 'nescessary' pain has strong limits.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Horrifying in it's vastness. [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #7424868 - 09/18/07 05:59 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Could you elaborate?  :confused:  Are you saying that we should accept pain as being necessary on a limited basis, or that there are "strong" limits (??) to how much pain we can tolerate, or ???

I would classify necessary physical pain as that which is not self-inflicted nor avoidable at the time it occurs.  Illness, accidental injury not incurred during extreme sports, wear and tear due to aging, childbirth, etc...


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Re: Horrifying in it's vastness. [Re: Veritas]
    #7426265 - 09/18/07 10:44 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

You are so silly. Extreme sports are very necessary. :yesnod:


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Horrifying in it's vastness. [Re: Veritas]
    #7427786 - 09/19/07 12:04 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I'd love to elaborate, but again my language qualities are missing a bit here, too. Maybe I have packed too much meaning in that sentence, too :smile:

"Are you saying that we should accept pain as being necessary on a limited basis,"
Natural (necessary) pain (like birth) has limits. Else we couldn't accept it, what leads to suffering. Non-ending natural pain normally will lead to death, which is an expression of pains' limits, too.

" or that there are "strong" limits (??) to how much pain we can tolerate, or ???"
That, too. Consciously and subconsciously :smile:

We know it's better to have NO pain, but sometimes it seems 'necessary' (but I am not happy with that word here, I just relay to your birth example). Let's say it occurs sometimes out of 'normal' circumstances :wink:

"I would classify necessary physical pain as that which is not self-inflicted nor avoidable at the time it occurs. Illness, accidental injury not incurred during extreme sports, wear and tear due to aging, childbirth, etc... "
Yes, I am exactly on your side there.
We have to judge and discern, if it's normal (necessary) pain, then we have to arrange with it and make the best out of it. Normally, we know it will pass. If we know this, the pain can not lead to suffering, so it's limited. Either the pain passes, or we do. So it's limited :smile:
If it's humanly 'forced', unnatural or unnecessary pain, it is time to change something (moving your hand out of the fire or extinguish the flame, analogously spoken).

Unnecessarily prolonged (unlimited) pain normally leads to suffering.

So yes, we are in the same page here. I say every pain has to be limited (f.e. by time, intensity or choice) to not lead to suffering, even if it's 'natural' pain.

Most people fail the distinction and judgment.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Offlinebackfromthedead
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Re: Horrifying in it's vastness. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7444406 - 09/23/07 03:13 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

"Young dogs often chase their own tails. Once in a while they get it, but usually only for a moment."

Dogs whimper, submit, and need shock collars.  If you have fangs you're barbed why err...  Soldiered, welded, hooked, as in...  not coming apart.  Now thats art old fart.

If you have a beak and wings you can fly and sing.
If you purr you get her.
Something about a boat and a goat.
One more Flood and thats all she wrote.


Just kidding.  And...
All in good fun, of course.  Grrr...:lol:


--------------------


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Offlinestellar renegade
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Re: Horrifying in it's vastness. [Re: Veritas]
    #7444654 - 09/23/07 04:16 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
The question which arises for me about physical pain is: do we allow ourselves to experience the pain as-is, or do we overlay suffering onto the sensation by resisting and refusing the experience itself?

I gave birth to both my sons without the use of pain medication, and I discovered an amazing difference between experiencing pain and fighting pain. When I accepted the painful nature of my physical experience, and ceased to demand an alternate version of reality, my perception of the pain itself was changed. I did everything I could to relax into the pain, which is the opposite of our reflexive reaction.

It seems to me that this is applicable to the experience of life in general--we know that there will be pain, we can accept that reality (though we may not like it), and we can cease to demand an alternate version. We can relax into the pain/pleasure aspects of our life experience, and reduce the emotional suffering created by neurosis.



This is something I've thought about extensively as well. I went through hell, which felt like a million burning thoughts turning on themselves and exploding into a million trillion tiny pieces so that I couldn't even think one coherent thought, and in the midst of that I tried to repent for being selfish. I tried and tried until I realized I was just trying to do it to escape the pain. So I let myself drift deep down into it, until I was sprawled under a tree with the cold wind assaulting my body in a fetal position, feeling completely naked before the universe. It was there that, I feel, I first really met Jesus. I had felt his physical presence before, but until then I had never really known him.

I think the whole lesson of the universe is to teach us to be unafraid of the pain of discovering our deeper selves and to become naked and yet unashamed. The pain that we will then feel will become so small that it will be swallowed up in the life everlasting. And then will the saying be fulfilled, "O death, where are thy thorns? O grave, where is thy sting?"

It is this, I believe, that made all the old martyrs so unafraid. Consider the account of Johann Huss who questioned the authoritarian church of his day with its abuses and lies and created a new church where people were free to follow a faith of pure and simple honesty:

Quote:

"Renounce your error," shouts the Duke of Bavaria. "I have taught no error. The truths I have I taught will seal with my blood." "Burn him." The executioner holds his torch to the fagots. Huss began to sing with a loud voice, 'Jesus, thou Son of David, have mercy on me.' And when he began to say the same the third time, the wind so blew the flame in his face that it choked him. What is it that the people hear coming from that sheet of flame? "Glory be to God on high, and on earth peace, good will toward men." It is the song which the angels sung above the pastures of Bethlehem. And this: "We praise thee, we bless thee, we worship thee, we give thanks to thee for thy great glory." It is Gloria in Excelsis. The smoke blinds him, the flames are circling above his head. Yet the voice goes on: "Thou that takest away the sins of the world, have mercy on me." The flames wrap him round, his head falls on his breast.
Huss had given up the ghost.

Poggius, who was secretary to the council, and Aeneas Sylvius, who afterwards became Pope, and whose narratives are not liable to the suspicion of being coloured, bear even higher testimony to the heroic demeanour of both Huss and Jerome at their execution. "Both," says the latter historian, "bore themselves with constant mind when their last hour approached. They prepared for the fire as if they were going to a marriage feast. They uttered no cry of pain. When the flames rose they began to sing hymns; and scarce could the vehemency of the fire stop their singing."




--------------------
"I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou

"To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald


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