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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
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Re: Horrifying in it's vastness. [Re: Veritas]
    #7426265 - 09/18/07 10:44 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

You are so silly. Extreme sports are very necessary. :yesnod:


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Registered: 05/07/04
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Re: Horrifying in it's vastness. [Re: Veritas]
    #7427786 - 09/19/07 12:04 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I'd love to elaborate, but again my language qualities are missing a bit here, too. Maybe I have packed too much meaning in that sentence, too :smile:

"Are you saying that we should accept pain as being necessary on a limited basis,"
Natural (necessary) pain (like birth) has limits. Else we couldn't accept it, what leads to suffering. Non-ending natural pain normally will lead to death, which is an expression of pains' limits, too.

" or that there are "strong" limits (??) to how much pain we can tolerate, or ???"
That, too. Consciously and subconsciously :smile:

We know it's better to have NO pain, but sometimes it seems 'necessary' (but I am not happy with that word here, I just relay to your birth example). Let's say it occurs sometimes out of 'normal' circumstances :wink:

"I would classify necessary physical pain as that which is not self-inflicted nor avoidable at the time it occurs. Illness, accidental injury not incurred during extreme sports, wear and tear due to aging, childbirth, etc... "
Yes, I am exactly on your side there.
We have to judge and discern, if it's normal (necessary) pain, then we have to arrange with it and make the best out of it. Normally, we know it will pass. If we know this, the pain can not lead to suffering, so it's limited. Either the pain passes, or we do. So it's limited :smile:
If it's humanly 'forced', unnatural or unnecessary pain, it is time to change something (moving your hand out of the fire or extinguish the flame, analogously spoken).

Unnecessarily prolonged (unlimited) pain normally leads to suffering.

So yes, we are in the same page here. I say every pain has to be limited (f.e. by time, intensity or choice) to not lead to suffering, even if it's 'natural' pain.

Most people fail the distinction and judgment.


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Offlinebackfromthedead
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Registered: 03/10/07
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Re: Horrifying in it's vastness. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7444406 - 09/23/07 03:13 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

"Young dogs often chase their own tails. Once in a while they get it, but usually only for a moment."

Dogs whimper, submit, and need shock collars.  If you have fangs you're barbed why err...  Soldiered, welded, hooked, as in...  not coming apart.  Now thats art old fart.

If you have a beak and wings you can fly and sing.
If you purr you get her.
Something about a boat and a goat.
One more Flood and thats all she wrote.


Just kidding.  And...
All in good fun, of course.  Grrr...:lol:


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Offlinestellar renegade
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Re: Horrifying in it's vastness. [Re: Veritas]
    #7444654 - 09/23/07 04:16 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
The question which arises for me about physical pain is: do we allow ourselves to experience the pain as-is, or do we overlay suffering onto the sensation by resisting and refusing the experience itself?

I gave birth to both my sons without the use of pain medication, and I discovered an amazing difference between experiencing pain and fighting pain. When I accepted the painful nature of my physical experience, and ceased to demand an alternate version of reality, my perception of the pain itself was changed. I did everything I could to relax into the pain, which is the opposite of our reflexive reaction.

It seems to me that this is applicable to the experience of life in general--we know that there will be pain, we can accept that reality (though we may not like it), and we can cease to demand an alternate version. We can relax into the pain/pleasure aspects of our life experience, and reduce the emotional suffering created by neurosis.



This is something I've thought about extensively as well. I went through hell, which felt like a million burning thoughts turning on themselves and exploding into a million trillion tiny pieces so that I couldn't even think one coherent thought, and in the midst of that I tried to repent for being selfish. I tried and tried until I realized I was just trying to do it to escape the pain. So I let myself drift deep down into it, until I was sprawled under a tree with the cold wind assaulting my body in a fetal position, feeling completely naked before the universe. It was there that, I feel, I first really met Jesus. I had felt his physical presence before, but until then I had never really known him.

I think the whole lesson of the universe is to teach us to be unafraid of the pain of discovering our deeper selves and to become naked and yet unashamed. The pain that we will then feel will become so small that it will be swallowed up in the life everlasting. And then will the saying be fulfilled, "O death, where are thy thorns? O grave, where is thy sting?"

It is this, I believe, that made all the old martyrs so unafraid. Consider the account of Johann Huss who questioned the authoritarian church of his day with its abuses and lies and created a new church where people were free to follow a faith of pure and simple honesty:

Quote:

"Renounce your error," shouts the Duke of Bavaria. "I have taught no error. The truths I have I taught will seal with my blood." "Burn him." The executioner holds his torch to the fagots. Huss began to sing with a loud voice, 'Jesus, thou Son of David, have mercy on me.' And when he began to say the same the third time, the wind so blew the flame in his face that it choked him. What is it that the people hear coming from that sheet of flame? "Glory be to God on high, and on earth peace, good will toward men." It is the song which the angels sung above the pastures of Bethlehem. And this: "We praise thee, we bless thee, we worship thee, we give thanks to thee for thy great glory." It is Gloria in Excelsis. The smoke blinds him, the flames are circling above his head. Yet the voice goes on: "Thou that takest away the sins of the world, have mercy on me." The flames wrap him round, his head falls on his breast.
Huss had given up the ghost.

Poggius, who was secretary to the council, and Aeneas Sylvius, who afterwards became Pope, and whose narratives are not liable to the suspicion of being coloured, bear even higher testimony to the heroic demeanour of both Huss and Jerome at their execution. "Both," says the latter historian, "bore themselves with constant mind when their last hour approached. They prepared for the fire as if they were going to a marriage feast. They uttered no cry of pain. When the flames rose they began to sing hymns; and scarce could the vehemency of the fire stop their singing."




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"I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou

"To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald


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