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OfflineBrAiN
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A new solution to illegal immigration?
    #7392034 - 09/10/07 01:46 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I'm pretty much divded on the issue. I believe illegals are still human and we're human first and our nationalities second... but, it's a burden to our system when illegals use our services without chipping in their part (aka taxes)... then you've got to worry about crimes that can't be tracked as easily because illegals aren't documented, etc, etc. Many hospitals have shut down in Los Angeles over the past 20 years because illegal immigrants use the emergency services and DON'T PAY knowing that we're not allowed to turn them away. So something obviously has to be done.

I don't like to break up families and we're ALL descendants of immigrants.. and these people just want a better life. I'd be doing the same thing if I were some broke ass mexican just trying to make life easier for my kids.

So I have to say I'm for some way to give illegals a path to citizenship.

I sort of like Bush's plan where illegals can get "amnesty" if they pay a fine which ends up being 10,000 dollars. The problem with this plan is that it isn't realistic. What kind of illegal has $10,000? And of those that do, finding them isn;t going to encourage them to step forward when they'v already proven they can manage illegally anyways.

Let's face it, the illegals aren't going anywhere and they're not going to pay $10,000 to become legal. So we've got to find a way that we can ALL benefit right? We need a way Americans can gain something from illegals and a way illegals can also be easily encouraged to step forward and become responsible citizens.

MY PROPOSED SOLUTION:

So how about combining those youth-outreach-gang-prevention style programs with an amnesty program. You're not going to get illegals to fork out any money and wait years. They've already proven they're not willing to go through our current beaurocratic system.

So... Give them a COMMUNITY SERVICE PLAN. Have a system where illegals can sign up, get fingerprinted and monitored and allow them to work at whatever jobs they were doing before BUT MAKE THEM participate maybe 20 hours a month or so in a community service program. Teach them carpentry skills, recycling skills, firefighting skills, etc and make them give up 20 hours a month (NO PAY) in donating their time to volunteer fire fighters, teaching, have them participate in disaster relief, etc. Once they've completed about 5 years in the program they can become citizens free of charge (if you don't count the labor they put in).

BENEFITS TO US: It encourages illegal aliens who are at risk of becoming violent criminals to come forward. It keeps these people busy instead of having them live in the shadows of society exposed to gangs, blackmarket trade and other crimes. It's not 100% effective in youth-outreach programs but it DOES work well enough. We get valuable manpower out of it for services in dire need but we get the manpower for FREE. Illegals are more likely so come citizens faster so they can start contributing taxes instead of evading taxes all their lives.

BENEFITS TO ILLEGALS: CITIZENSHIP without having to go broke, poverty being what they were trying to escape in the first place. Illegals learn skills that can help them in the workforce so they can contribute to our economy once they're legal. Illegals no longer have to fear deportation or having their families broken up as long as they obey the rules once they're here.

Just an idea... but does anyone think it might work? Granted, no solution is going to be perfect but this at least can satisfy fears for both conservatives and liberals. We can't just give amnesty to people and look the other way but we don't have the resources to kick our every illegal immigrant at the same time. At least we're giving the illegals a CHANCE to become Americans by proving they're willing to contribute to our country's well being instead of just demanding all our public service s for free. This way, if they slip up and commit felonies or don't stick to the plan, we can either jail or deport them and they have no right to complain... because they were given a more than fair shot.


Edited by BrAiN (09/10/07 01:55 PM)


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: A new solution to illegal immigration? [Re: BrAiN]
    #7392831 - 09/10/07 05:21 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

something like this I believe is the appropriate thing to do.

THe deport em all mentality is dumb, imo. It would be wasteful to deport everyone, and would cause untold suffering as children and parents are seperated and deposited in countries they may not have jobs available to return to.

We must develop a compasionate and reasonable plan and strictly adhere to it to prevent the problem from becoming worse.


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: A new solution to illegal immigration? [Re: BrAiN]
    #7392865 - 09/10/07 05:28 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

i think it's a pretty simple one fundamentally.

if they can hold a job, support themselves and their children, pay taxes, stay out of jail, and eventually learn our nation's language, they may come here and they may stay. otherwise, they can get out and stay out. i don't think that's too much to ask.

and some of the money we're pissing away on everything from iraq to new orleans should be spent shoring up border security to make it harder to come in illegally.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: A new solution to illegal immigration? [Re: wilshire]
    #7392882 - 09/10/07 05:31 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

agreed, those who want to work, and not cause trouble, should be put on a path to citezenship. Those that cause trouble, send em back. But we need to secure the border to prevent the problem from continuing at the current rate.


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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: A new solution to illegal immigration? [Re: johnm214]
    #7393000 - 09/10/07 05:56 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I want to see maybe a modified guest worker program. But I'm afraid they are just setting up another border sieve like the last time they supposedly fixed this back in 1986. I don't trust so-called "Comprehensive Immigration Reform"- it's just a code name for amnesty.

Build the fence first then we can talk immigration reform.


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: A new solution to illegal immigration? [Re: zorbman]
    #7393069 - 09/10/07 06:14 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

The problem that no one seems to discuss is the fact that many of the illegals
here today are working illegal jobs that exist only so long as they have
illegal, unprotected workers to fill them.

All that goes right out the window when you now have a 'guest worker' or
(worse) 'citizen' who expects to continue that job now with a mandate of
minimum wage and other benefits that come with legal employment.

Once these fucking beaners become legal, Dole is going to have to find a
new type of beaner to fill the illegal jobs they currently use to drive
down their costs.

Then what? We've got a bunch of newly-legal beaners with no job sitting
on welfare AND/OR our agricultural, construction and manufacturing costs
go up and, in turn, get passed on to the consumer.

You solve the problem by mobilizing against the employers, regardless of
the amount of money they've donated to the political campaigns of the
present party in power.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: A new solution to illegal immigration? [Re: zorbman]
    #7393111 - 09/10/07 06:24 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

zorbman said:
I want to see maybe a modified guest worker program. But I'm afraid they are just setting up another border sieve like the last time they supposedly fixed this back in 1986. I don't trust so-called "Comprehensive Immigration Reform"- it's just a code name for amnesty.

Build the fence first then we can talk immigration reform.




Holy fucking zappa, I agree with this 100%. I'm going to have to lie down, I feel faint. Nurse? Nurse?! NURSE!!!!!!!!!


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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: A new solution to illegal immigration? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7393705 - 09/10/07 08:38 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

A border fence is never going to work. We can never build a fence like that and even if we could people will find a way to circumvent it.

Like I said... look at the positive side of things. Wheen life hands you lemons.. make lemonade. If you can;t stop the influx of illegals then find a way to harness it. Coax them all into a community service program. I'm sure people will be more willing to donate a little time for 5 years than to pay massive fines. Shit... UI'm still paying off my college loans for the past 5 years and I'm not even half way there. If you told me I could donate community service every montha dn not have to pay a single dollar to pay off my college loans in 5 years.. I'd take it in a heart beat.

For all of you guys in credit card dept over 10,000 dollars, think about it. If someone told you that in 5 years if you gave up every other saturday for 5 years in community service, to have a 0 dollar balance with no money down.. i bet about 50% of the people here would take it.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: A new solution to illegal immigration? [Re: BrAiN]
    #7395141 - 09/11/07 04:58 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

My solution is easy...

Ship out the illegals and for every illegal shipped out, allow one person that has been patiently waiting in line to legally enter the country quick access to the "approved" stamp. They already have a job waiting for them, should they choose to take it.

Maybe rather than "send them back" we should sent them somewhere a bit more distant... I hear Iran is pretty nice this time of year... knowning that you will end up some random country on the other side of the world should you get caught as in illegal might help stem the tide a bit.


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InvisibleArp
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Re: A new solution to illegal immigration? [Re: Seuss]
    #7395162 - 09/11/07 05:25 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Bah. Then they will only go to Europe. We have enough problems with the arab refugees from your wars.

I say, Europe should ship the arabs to the US. Afterall they are there because of US intervention in the mideast :smile:


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: A new solution to illegal immigration? [Re: Arp]
    #7395222 - 09/11/07 06:01 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

> We have enough problems with the arab refugees from your wars.

My wars?  I don't think my little island has ever gone to war with another country.  If we go back far enough, the war in the middle east is simply a continuation of your war (religious crusades) from the middle ages.  :wink:


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: A new solution to illegal immigration? [Re: Seuss]
    #7395240 - 09/11/07 06:14 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
My solution is easy...

Ship out the illegals and for every illegal shipped out, allow one person that has been patiently waiting in line to legally enter the country quick access to the "approved" stamp. They already have a job waiting for them, should they choose to take it.





Seuss,

I like your idea because it seems intrinsicly fair in some respects, but I don't know if its worth the price. The cost seems prohibitive. Why not just allow those who conform to the laws (major ones, like felony, assault, et cet) and who hold a job, to pay restitution in a reasonable amount over a period of time, then have citezenship?

While admitadly from a biased source, one group put the cost to deport the illegals at a very high number:

Quote:

The total cost would be $206 billion to $230 billion over five years, depending on how many of the immigrants leave voluntarily, according to the study.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/25/AR2005072501605.html


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InvisibleArp
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Re: A new solution to illegal immigration? [Re: Seuss]
    #7395241 - 09/11/07 06:15 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

My war? I don't think my little nation up here in the north was ever involved in any religious crusades in the mideast :wink:

Sincerely, I don't think it's a coincidence that we see more people from Iraq seeking asylum and the US waged war on Iraq. And you can't blame that on something from the middle ages.

Hey why not blame it on the dawn of man? :shocked:


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: A new solution to illegal immigration? [Re: Arp]
    #7395315 - 09/11/07 06:51 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

> Why not just allow those who conform to the laws

I dislike the idea of rewarding people for sneaking into a country.  It is a very petty/shallow gripe, but I am far from perfect.  My other gripe, again a bit shallow, is that most illegals are not here because they want to become an American, but are here because they are greedy.  I welcome anybody that wants to add their culture to the American melting pot with open arms, but I have no sympathy at all for those that simply want to transplant their culture somewhere more lucrative.

> My war? I don't think my little nation up here in the north was ever involved in any religious crusades in the mideast

*laugh*  Fair enough... :smile:


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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: A new solution to illegal immigration? [Re: Seuss]
    #7395386 - 09/11/07 07:34 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
My solution is easy...

Ship out the illegals and for every illegal shipped out, allow one person that has been patiently waiting in line to legally enter the country quick access to the "approved" stamp. They already have a job waiting for them, should they choose to take it.





That's atually a pretty fair idea.

Although, you know how impossible that's going to be to actually implement. The only way that will happen is if the authaorities take on a policy of "profiling", going up to everyone that look hispanic and checking their documents. I'm not quite sure that's legal, is it?


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: A new solution to illegal immigration? [Re: Seuss]
    #7395390 - 09/11/07 07:36 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

are here because they are greedy. I welcome anybody that wants to add their culture to the American melting pot with open arms, but I have no sympathy at all for those that simply want to transplant their culture somewhere more lucrative.




What's wrong with greed? Granted they have no right to insist the US acomodate their culture any more than generally allowing them to practice there own way of life, and providing translaters for court and other vital functions.

I do think there is a difference between the immigrants of the past (at least the stereotypical view) and those of today.

My great grandpa came to this country and started a store. He eventually learned fluent english without an accent, and refused to speak his native languages with other bohemian customers who would come in his store. He would say- "you are in america, speak english." He also would not talk about how great the "old country" was like alot of immigrants today do. He said to any of the other bohemians coming into the store who would extol the virtues of the old country " that place was rubbish, I was starving, that's why I left."

You can practice whatever lifestyle you want, but I don't understand those who come here and expect american society to adopt their own peculiarities and moral codes. Do what you want on your own property, but leave the rest of us alone.


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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: A new solution to illegal immigration? [Re: Seuss]
    #7395393 - 09/11/07 07:36 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> We have enough problems with the arab refugees from your wars.

My wars?  I don't think my little island has ever gone to war with another country.  If we go back far enough, the war in the middle east is simply a continuation of your war (religious crusades) from the middle ages.  :wink:




OUR war? I hope that guy you responded to is English, because America never had any crusades.

Or do you mean that white people caused the crusades?


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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: A new solution to illegal immigration? [Re: Seuss]
    #7395405 - 09/11/07 07:41 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> Why not just allow those who conform to the laws

I dislike the idea of rewarding people for sneaking into a country.  It is a very petty/shallow gripe, but I am far from perfect.  My other gripe, again a bit shallow, is that most illegals are not here because they want to become an American, but are here because they are greedy.  I welcome anybody that wants to add their culture to the American melting pot with open arms, but I have no sympathy at all for those that simply want to transplant their culture somewhere more lucrative.

> My war? I don't think my little nation up here in the north was ever involved in any religious crusades in the mideast

*laugh*  Fair enough... :smile:




Random solution.

How's this for fair?

How about any Mexican that can trace his roots back to ancestors that actually LIVED in the area that is now the southwest part of the states getd to stay? I mean shit, their great great great grand dadies were here before most of OUR honkey ass great great great grand daddies.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: A new solution to illegal immigration? [Re: BrAiN]
    #7395418 - 09/11/07 07:48 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

OUR war? I hope that guy you responded to is English, because America never had any crusades.

Or do you mean that white people caused the crusades?




Well, ignoring the middle east involvment of the USA as of late (last 50 years), the wars and forced-conversions of natives in the now-USA and mexico regions seem pretty similar to the crusades- don't know how the scale compares though.


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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: A new solution to illegal immigration? [Re: johnm214]
    #7395427 - 09/11/07 07:52 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Quote:

OUR war? I hope that guy you responded to is English, because America never had any crusades.

Or do you mean that white people caused the crusades?




Well, ignoring the middle east involvment of the USA as of late (last 50 years), the wars and forced-conversions of natives in the now-USA and mexico regions seem pretty similar to the crusades- don't know how the scale compares though.




Say what?


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: A new solution to illegal immigration? [Re: johnm214]
    #7395450 - 09/11/07 08:02 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

My great grandpa came to this country and started a store. He eventually learned fluent english without an accent, and refused to speak his native languages with other bohemian customers who would come in his store. He would say- "you are in america, speak english." He also would not talk about how great the "old country" was like alot of immigrants today do. He said to any of the other bohemians coming into the store who would extol the virtues of the old country " that place was rubbish, I was starving, that's why I left."




A perfect example of what I accept with open arms... a bit above and beyond what I was trying to describe, but the point is well made.


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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: A new solution to illegal immigration? [Re: Seuss]
    #7396105 - 09/11/07 12:30 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

I dislike the idea of rewarding people for sneaking into a country. It is a very petty/shallow gripe..




It isn't petty at all. It is very basic. You don't reward lawbreakers with the object of their crime. Nations that don't understand this cease to be nations.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: A new solution to illegal immigration? [Re: zorbman]
    #7396674 - 09/11/07 02:33 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

It isn't petty at all. It is very basic. You don't reward lawbreakers with the object of their crime. Nations that don't understand this cease to be nations.




Well this is why I believe a penalty is appropriate- like a fine payable over a number of years. This punishes illegals, while saving america from the steep costs of deporting all of them.


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