Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder, Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5  [ show all ]
OfflineLion
Decadent Flower Magnate
Male User Gallery


Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 8,775
Last seen: 3 days, 17 hours
One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe
    #7389521 - 09/09/07 08:01 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I think this is one of the biggest lies we tell ourselves: That by being unhappy, by feeling sorry for ourselves, we will get what we want; If we wallow in self-loathing enough, if we curse the Heavens for putting us here, we'll get our way. It can be really subtle, a comfortable little bit of self-pity, or it can be an all-out depression that you refuse to shake yourself out of.

Try to become aware of whether you do this or not. I know I do.


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
Stranger

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 11,123
Loc: Texas
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: Lion]
    #7389557 - 09/09/07 08:09 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I think I'm lucky and I think I'm pretty neato!


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineViveka
refutation bias
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/21/02
Posts: 4,061
Last seen: 7 years, 3 months
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: Lion]
    #7389590 - 09/09/07 08:17 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I think it's even more sinister than that. I think many people adopt a victim disposition, not necesarily "on purpose", but there are definitely lots of choices made along the way. This victimhood actually gives people power over others, or at least a sense of power. People can use their victimology to exploit the empathy of others. They may also use it to manipulate those around them or ply others to their will according to the predictable dynamics of human behavior. Almost everyone has one or more experiences in their life that can set them up to potentially adopt victimhood. It is critical that we are aware of this and we root any trace of this victimology from our psyche.

It seems the best choice is to always take accountability for one's own situation, for even if one has been subject to the tyranny of another, no one else can truly take responsibility for your life than you.


Also, your post made me think of something else. I know that when I was an adolescent and would indulge in negativity or victimhood, I constantly saw the opportunity to let just let it go, even if only for the time being, but I would almost always choose to perpetuate it and hold on to it. Reflecting back on it, I think it was because at some level I felt that if I could just express the anguish by my thoughts and actions at the right time or right place, I might find resolution...somehow.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineLion
Decadent Flower Magnate
Male User Gallery


Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 8,775
Last seen: 3 days, 17 hours
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: Viveka]
    #7389618 - 09/09/07 08:29 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

:smile: :thumbup: Good thoughts.

I am guilty of this a lot of the time.

I heard a great story the other day, though I cannot vouch for its accuracy because I didn't do any research.  It was related to me thusly:

Pema Chodron, the Vajrayana Buddhist who is a famous author and the leader of the Gampo Abbey monastery, was on her way to the airport, when two men assailed her intending to rape her.

Immediately she took control.  "You can rape me, but please make it quick, I have a flight to catch and I'm already late" - something to that effect.  The men did indeed rape her, but went about it awkwardly (since rape is all about power, which she took away from them by asserting herself) and quickly.  She caught her flight and let go of the experience, except as a tool for teaching others how to take responsibility.


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7389660 - 09/09/07 08:43 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I think that you express deep seated insecurities.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
Stranger

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 11,123
Loc: Texas
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7389690 - 09/09/07 08:50 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Ditto for you.

:shrug:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: Lion]
    #7389699 - 09/09/07 08:52 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Pema Chodron, the Vajrayana Buddhist who is a famous author and the leader of the Gampo Abbey monastery, was on her way to the airport, when two men assailed her intending to rape her.

Immediately she took control. "You can rape me, but please make it quick, I have a flight to catch and I'm already late" - something to that effect. The men did indeed rape her, but went about it awkwardly (since rape is all about power, which she took away from them by asserting herself) and quickly. She caught her flight and let go of the experience, except as a tool for teaching others how to take responsibility.


Don't you just love those urban legends.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7389703 - 09/09/07 08:53 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

adjust said:
Ditto for you.

:shrug:




Excellent comeback.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7390241 - 09/09/07 11:17 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
I think that you express deep seated insecurities.




Let's not personalize the discussion, please.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinekotik
fuckingsuperhero
 User Gallery
Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 06/29/04
Posts: 3,531
Last seen: 4 years, 24 days
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7390409 - 09/10/07 12:39 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

if im not mistaken, i believe that having fits of depression / pity / etc. can be an addiction, like cutting, or smoking, or overeating - all of which are unhealthy.

It's simply a period of losing control, then regaining it - or better example, a buildup of stress, and release (more importantly, release of endorphins and the like).


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinenaysayer
Stranger
Registered: 09/10/07
Posts: 3
Last seen: 16 years, 4 months
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: kotik]
    #7390694 - 09/10/07 03:08 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Another lie i believe we tell ourselves: That the unhappy are living any less than the happy. By being unhappy we are missing out on something, and wasting time. I personally don't believe in wasted time.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblecloudtripper
Knock and theDoor will open
Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 175
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: naysayer]
    #7391143 - 09/10/07 09:10 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Immediately she took control. "You can rape me, but please make it quick, I have a flight to catch and I'm already late" - something to that effect. The men did indeed rape her, but went about it awkwardly (since rape is all about power, which she took away from them by asserting herself) and quickly. She caught her flight and let go of the experience, except as a tool for teaching others how to take responsibility.




No, hospital treatment for internal injuries, no life long scares, no children as a result, amazing. What shame it isn't like that for all rape _victims_. Now, was it due to her actions that she was raped in the first place do you think ?

Some people truly are victims, to take that away from them is to take away the last thing they have left after that terror they have been through.


--------------------
Always come back again. Never come back the same.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineshakercee
Atheistic Mystic
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/08/07
Posts: 606
Loc: Here and there
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: cloudtripper]
    #7391178 - 09/10/07 09:20 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

No, hospital treatment for internal injuries, no life long scares, no children as a result, amazing. What shame it isn't like that for all rape _victims




:whoa:


--------------------
Pray, v.: To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy - Ambrose Bierce

Medical science has confirmed what the male world has known intuitively for millenia: that scratching your ass is a great aid to complex thinking.

Its God's responsibility to forgive the terrorist organizations such as Jaish, Lashkar etc.
Its our responsibility to arrange the meeting between them and god."
- Indian Armed Forces

"Hey Monkey!! Get Funky" - Tarzan and Jane


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: cloudtripper]
    #7391207 - 09/10/07 09:29 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

cloudtripper said:
Quote:

Immediately she took control. "You can rape me, but please make it quick, I have a flight to catch and I'm already late" - something to that effect. The men did indeed rape her, but went about it awkwardly (since rape is all about power, which she took away from them by asserting herself) and quickly. She caught her flight and let go of the experience, except as a tool for teaching others how to take responsibility. 




No, hospital treatment for internal injuries, no life long scares, no children as a result, amazing.  What shame it isn't like that for all rape _victims_.  Now, was it due to her actions that she was raped in the first place do you think ?

Some people truly are victims, to take that away from them is to take away the last thing they have left after that terror they have been through.




:thumbup:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: cloudtripper]
    #7391227 - 09/10/07 09:36 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

cloudtripper said:
Now, was it due to her actions that she was raped in the first place do you think ?




No. Rape only manifests due to the choice of the rapist.

Quote:


Some people truly are victims, to take that away from them is to take away the last thing they have left after that terror they have been through.




And what is that, their identity of victimhood? What good is that?


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleVeritas
 User Gallery
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: cloudtripper]
    #7391314 - 09/10/07 10:12 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Some people truly are victims, to take that away from them is to take away the last thing they have left after that terror they have been through.




The last thing they have left?  :confused:  You mean everything they had before they were raped is gone?  Now they can only identify themselves permanently as victims, and receive pity from the rest of humanity?  This simply makes no sense to me.

No, someone who is raped did not cause themself to be raped, anymore than a child causes themself to be abused, or a civilian causes themself to be bombed during a war.  They are experiencing a course of events in which they happen to have been included.  Does this mean that their identity has now been determined?

The point here is not to blame people for events beyond their control, but to discuss what they might choose to do afterward.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblecloudtripper
Knock and theDoor will open
Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 175
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: Veritas]
    #7391452 - 09/10/07 10:56 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The last thing they have left? :confused: You mean everything they had before they were raped is gone? Now they can only identify themselves permanently as victims, and receive pity from the rest of humanity? This simply makes no sense to me.

No, someone who is raped did not cause themself to be raped, anymore than a child causes themself to be abused, or a civilian causes themself to be bombed during a war. They are experiencing a course of events in which they happen to have been included. Does this mean that their identity has now been determined?

The point here is not to blame people for events beyond their control, but to discuss what they might choose to do afterward. 




Sure, but to say they arn't victims or are victims due to their own bad choices (ie their own fault) is to take away the recongination of what has happened (which is important to them) and then possibly to take the help and support that a victim needs.


--------------------
Always come back again. Never come back the same.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleVeritas
 User Gallery
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: cloudtripper]
    #7391635 - 09/10/07 11:42 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Who has said that someone who has an event forced on them, whether that event is rape, being run over by a drunk driver, being shot by an armed robber or being abused by a parent or partner, is at fault for the event?  If I am struck by lightning while biking home after work, am I somehow a victim of bad weather?  Or am I at fault for biking home?  :confused:

Why is it beneficial in any way for someone to identify themself, or by identified by others, as a victim?  How will removing the event from one's identity result in a loss of help or support in dealing with the aftermath of the event?

Let's take the example of being run over by a drunk driver--will the hospital's Emergency Room turn away the injured party if they fail to say "I am a victim of a drunk driver"?  If they seek counseling later in order to resolve their feelings about the event, will the counselor reject them as a client if they do not claim victim status?

Do you understand the point?  No one truly benefits from claiming to be a victim, and recovering from traumatic events is not furthered by establishing who is the victim and who is the perpetrator.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: Veritas]
    #7391732 - 09/10/07 12:14 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Who has said that someone who has an event forced on them, whether that event is rape, being run over by a drunk driver, being shot by an armed robber or being abused by a parent or partner, is at fault for the event?




This crazy lady.

Quote:

Immediately she took control. "You can rape me, but please make it quick, I have a flight to catch and I'm already late" - something to that effect. The men did indeed rape her, but went about it awkwardly (since rape is all about power, which she took away from them by asserting herself) and quickly. She caught her flight and let go of the experience, except as a tool for teaching others how to take responsibility.




Quote:

Why is it beneficial in any way for someone to identify themself, or by identified by others, as a victim?




Because that is what they are. This should've invade and define their entire identity, but to claim that someone who was raped is not a victim seems violently absurd. I can't imagine anything more coldhearted and cruel than telling a victim of sexual abuse that nothing wrong was done to them.

Unfortunately, I know more than one person who has been raped (one out of seven women is raped in their lifetime.) The ones that feel like the victim of a crime do far better than the ones that don't.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineshakercee
Atheistic Mystic
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/08/07
Posts: 606
Loc: Here and there
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #7391746 - 09/10/07 12:20 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The ones that feel like the victim of a crime do far better than the ones that don't.




Are you saying that one requisite for a woman to reach the top is to have been raped or physically abused? :confused:


--------------------
Pray, v.: To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy - Ambrose Bierce

Medical science has confirmed what the male world has known intuitively for millenia: that scratching your ass is a great aid to complex thinking.

Its God's responsibility to forgive the terrorist organizations such as Jaish, Lashkar etc.
Its our responsibility to arrange the meeting between them and god."
- Indian Armed Forces

"Hey Monkey!! Get Funky" - Tarzan and Jane


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleVeritas
 User Gallery
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #7391858 - 09/10/07 12:55 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

So if someone else chooses to cause me harm, I must now redefine myself by their actions? No, someone who is raped is NOT to blame for the actions of the rapist, but they are responsible for how they choose to explain the experience to themself. If they choose to say "I am A VICTIM," they have just given over their power and selfhood to someone else. If they say "I experienced a harmful and difficult event," they retain their power & can choose to define themselves by their own terms.

Yes, rape is a crime. No one who has been raped is to blame for what their attacker chose to do. No one on this thread has claimed otherwise. The story (which I doubt is true) of Pema Chodron's behavior towards the men who raped her is about choosing how we respond to the events we cannot control. Responsibility is not about blame, but about personal choice and internal power.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineLion
Decadent Flower Magnate
Male User Gallery


Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 8,775
Last seen: 3 days, 17 hours
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #7392175 - 09/10/07 02:33 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Because that is what they are. This should've invade and define their entire identity, but to claim that someone who was raped is not a victim seems violently absurd.


People who have been raped are not victims - a victim is not who that person is. They are human beings who have been victimized - past tense. Creating an identity out of that victimization leads only to further suffering.

Not meaning to preach, as I do myself have several incidents in my life, particularly involving the legal system, which make me feel like a victim. It is hard for me to let go of these things, trifling though they are compared to something like rape, but letting go is indeed the way to...go.


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


Edited by Lion (09/10/07 02:51 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: shakercee]
    #7392422 - 09/10/07 03:42 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

shakercee said:
Quote:

The ones that feel like the victim of a crime do far better than the ones that don't.




Are you saying that one requisite for a woman to reach the top is to have been raped or physically abused? :confused:




No! I am saying women who accept they were victims of a terrible crime do much better than women who believe they're responsible for being sexually assaulted. (You'd be surprised how many people blame themselves rather than the rapist.)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: Veritas]
    #7392450 - 09/10/07 03:49 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

There was a typo which makes an incredible difference in what I said.

"This should've invade and define their entire identity..." was supposed to read, "This shouldn't invade and define their entire identity..."

No, people should not redefine themselves as victims, but they should realize they've been a victim of a crime. You can consider yourself a victim without that label consuming your entire identity.

On the other hand, from what I can observe, most people end up redefining themselves in some way or another after being sexually assaulted, whether they intend to or not. It is such an intense and traumatic experience that to not have your outlook on life forever changed by it seems miraculous.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleVeritas
 User Gallery
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #7392561 - 09/10/07 04:23 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Again, I simply do not see the benefit of labeling oneself a victim.  :shrug:  Is it not enough to recognize that you've survived a difficult experience?  There have been many events in my life which could be described as victimization, yet I do not call myself a victim.  It is a powerless term, with no endpoint and no possibility of resolution.  :thumbdown:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: Veritas]
    #7392578 - 09/10/07 04:28 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

There have been many events in my life which could be described as victimization, yet I do not call myself a victim.




This sentence contradicts itself?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Female User Gallery


Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #7392617 - 09/10/07 04:37 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

No it doesn't.
Choosing not to consider yourself a victim, even if this is what you were at a moment it time influences in a very powerful and obvious way your state of mind. I think it coincides with the moment when one is claiming back his power and strength, which would be otherwise vanish if one would have chosen to consider that they are victims.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleVeritas
 User Gallery
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #7392683 - 09/10/07 04:47 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

No contradiction.  I said that the events could be described as victimization, not that I did describe them as such.  They were just crappy things that happened, and I was involved. :shrug:

I suppose it is just my preference to veer away from the passive stance. When I consider my circumstances, past and present, it seems more powerful to frame events as opportunities to respond.  Victimhood is a passive reaction to difficult circumstances, and that approach does not work for me.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: Veritas]
    #7392714 - 09/10/07 04:53 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Can a dead 9/11 victim reframe the incident in their mind to become a non-victim?


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleVeritas
 User Gallery
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7392720 - 09/10/07 04:54 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Mind?  What mind?  :wink:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: Veritas]
    #7392763 - 09/10/07 05:05 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Thanks for making my point. It IS possible to be a victim.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBlueCoyote
Beyond
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 16 days
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: Veritas]
    #7392769 - 09/10/07 05:06 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

To whomever,

Once been a victim doesn't mean that in the future, in same circumstances, one still will be a victim.
So this is only making one a victim in the past, not in the present, regarding something what happened.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Female User Gallery


Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #7392792 - 09/10/07 05:11 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Yes but you live in the present, not in the past.
Also thinking that you were once were a victim means that you can always find a "refuge" in that frame, any time something unfortunate happens to you.
The victim mentality is highly addictive to the psyche and any indulgence towards it can make one take huge steps backwards in difficult moments.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleVeritas
 User Gallery
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7392804 - 09/10/07 05:13 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Thanks for making my point. It IS possible to be a victim.




No, I think that the point was that it is not possible to think when you're dead.  :lol:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: Veritas]
    #7392815 - 09/10/07 05:18 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

For some that is a Herculean task while alive. :yesnod:


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7392845 - 09/10/07 05:24 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBlueCoyote
Beyond
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 16 days
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7392868 - 09/10/07 05:28 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Once having been a victim imho reduces the chances of being a victim again, 'in general'.
So once a victim, now an opponent ? :laugh:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Female User Gallery


Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #7392910 - 09/10/07 05:38 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Well not really.
I mean I do agree with you on the fact that once you've gone through something tough, you learn something and then you try to do your best to prevent it from happening again.
But why to label yourself as a victim? Cause that's what I was arguing about.
You can learn your lessons without considering yourself a victim. It just draws too many self destructive attitudes and thoughts if you do so.
Someone who considers him/her self a victim would have the impulse to generalize it, live in the shadow of the past as a current and constant reminder for every discomfort they might encounter. This is not a desirable attitude.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBlueCoyote
Beyond
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 16 days
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7392953 - 09/10/07 05:45 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

All my replies were meant to not consider oneself a victim in the now, of course :smile: They meant the opposite. To not forget once one was a victim, but now, never again :smile:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinebackfromthedead
Activated


Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 3,592
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: Lion]
    #7393011 - 09/10/07 06:00 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Bug: "If we wallow in self-loathing enough, if we curse the Heavens for putting us here, we'll get our way."

No need to curse the heavens...
Why not find these shapshifting reptilian alien bloodlines??:uptosomething:
Set your sites right??:evil:
Hey if King Cuppa turns out to be bogus.
I'll have set my sites safely on nothing.:boxerface:
Problem solves itself.:shrug:
I want to learn how to spit fireballs.:idea:


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineViveka
refutation bias
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/21/02
Posts: 4,061
Last seen: 7 years, 3 months
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #7393572 - 09/10/07 08:09 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I think the overarching point, which some have already made, is the uselesness of external definition. The only benefit someone can achieve from taking the victim posture is either the empathy, or its uglier cousin sympathy, of others or a temporary ego gratification.

Quote:

Unfortunately, I know more than one person who has been raped (one out of seven women is raped in their lifetime.) The ones that feel like the victim of a crime do far better than the ones that don't.




Do far better in what sense? You mean they’ve gone farther in addressing their unresolved psychology or they’ve found a stance of power within their victimhood that affords them a certain control, even if subtly, over others?

There’s a difference between not identifying oneself as a victim and believing that everything bad that happens is one’s own fault. The stark truth is that shit happens. Our choice is whether to identify ourselves as someone who was wronged by the world, or to accept that many things happen in the world that suck and they happen to all sorts of people all the time. Victimhood is an ego trip and it’s a choice. You can’t always choose what happens to you but you can choose how you respond to it and how you integrate the experience into your psyche, you know the drill.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblecloudtripper
Knock and theDoor will open
Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 175
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: Veritas]
    #7394615 - 09/11/07 12:13 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Let's take the example of being run over by a drunk driver--will the hospital's Emergency Room turn away the injured party if they fail to say "I am a victim of a drunk driver"? If they seek counseling later in order to resolve their feelings about the event, will the counselor reject them as a client if they do not claim victim status?




They are seeking help because they are a victim, it dosn' matter if they say it or not, what matters is that they are recognized as such.

For someone to turn around and to deny them of that is more than an insult. For some one to say "Just get over it" ... look this Nun did, is more than an insult. It's not so simplistic.

I also see comments suggesting that everyone is responsible for what happens to them, which I am disagreeing with.


--------------------
Always come back again. Never come back the same.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblecloudtripper
Knock and theDoor will open
Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 175
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #7394639 - 09/11/07 12:20 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Unfortunately, I know more than one person who has been raped (one out of seven women is raped in their lifetime.) The ones that feel like the victim of a crime do far better than the ones that don't.




Precisely, recognition that they are a victim and that they are not at fault is an important part of any recovery.

If someone is raped or bashed they need to accept the truth that they where a victim and they need other people to accept that truth, i.e that something terrible did happen to them and that it was through the actions of someone else and not a fault of their own.

I'm saddened by the lack of compassion of some people.


--------------------
Always come back again. Never come back the same.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: cloudtripper]
    #7394671 - 09/11/07 12:36 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

cloudtripper said:
For someone to turn around and to deny them of that is more than an insult. For some one to say "Just get over it" ... look this Nun did, is more than an insult. It's not so simplistic.




Why isn't it so simplistic? Why shouldn't it be so simplistic?

Quote:


I also see comments suggesting that everyone is responsible for what happens to them, which I am disagreeing with.




No, you are not seeing that; you are seeing people stating that everyone is responsible for how they manage themselves in regards to what happens to them. Establishing for oneself an identity as someone who is still suffering after the event has already transpired serves no purpose but to inflict further suffering upon oneself.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblecloudtripper
Knock and theDoor will open
Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 175
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7394689 - 09/11/07 12:43 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Why isn't it so simplistic? Why shouldn't it be so simplistic?




Because such events have more of an effect than a sratch on the skin. It takes time to heal. The damage is real, the pain from the damage is real, the healing takes as long or longer than a physical healing and is more complex. If someone break a leg, do you expect them to walk normally ? If someone looses a leg do you expect them to ever walk normally again ?


--------------------
Always come back again. Never come back the same.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: cloudtripper]
    #7394709 - 09/11/07 12:57 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Do they? I think the individual determines how much time it takes to heal - we aren't talking about a broken leg here.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblecloudtripper
Knock and theDoor will open
Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 175
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7394740 - 09/11/07 01:13 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Do they? I think the individual determines how much time it takes to heal




The damage determines how long and even if the _victim_ will heal, along with the level of support and understanding they might or might not receive.

Quote:

- we aren't talking about a broken leg here




No, you can see a broken leg can't you. Physiological damage is just as real and the damage is just as real. Just as you cannot reasonably expect someone who has a broken leg to just get over it, you cannot reasonably expect someone who has been damaged physiologically to just get over it, to do so might result in them never getting over it properly ... walking with a limp for the rest of their lives.


--------------------
Always come back again. Never come back the same.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: cloudtripper]
    #7394753 - 09/11/07 01:17 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

cloudtripper said:
The damage determines how long and even if the _victim_ will heal, along with the level of support and understanding they might or might not receive.




Yet the individual determines the damage done.

Quote:


Physiological damage is just as real and the damage is just as real.  Just as you cannot reasonably expect someone who has a broken leg to just get over it, you cannot reasonably expect someone who has been damaged physiologically to just get over it, to do so might result in them never getting over it properly ... walking with a limp for the rest of their lives.




No one has promoted "just getting over it", so I don't know what you are talking about. :shrug:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblecloudtripper
Knock and theDoor will open
Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 175
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7395227 - 09/11/07 06:04 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Yet the individual determines the damage done.




What ? You mean the individual who carried out the attack .. I hope. I hope your note saying that a victim of a viscous crime determines how much damage they receive from the attack. If that was the case you would be saying that people who have been attacked can somehow control the amount of damage the attack has done to them.

A car accident is an accident, I'd assume the mental damage would often be far less than that from a viscous, intentional, overpowering attack from a fellow human.

Quote:

No one has promoted "just getting over it", so I don't know what you are talking about.




In the story of the nun being raped that is exactly the idea that has been given. She immediately got over the rape and didn't even bother to report it to police it seems.

Blocking something out is not getting over it. Accepting it is.

You are the one that asked why it wasn't that simple to just "get over it" your previous post. Sounds like you where the one arguing the case to just get over it to me ?


--------------------
Always come back again. Never come back the same.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: cloudtripper]
    #7395319 - 09/11/07 06:53 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

cloudtripper said:
  I hope your note saying that a victim of a viscous crime determines how much damage they receive from the attack.  If that was the case you would be saying that people who have been attacked can somehow control the amount of damage the attack has done to them.




Um, yes, that is what I am saying. What is so difficult to understand regarding that? Human beings make decisions as to who they will be and how they will interpret and emotionally respond to reality.

Quote:


In the story of the nun being raped that is exactly the idea that has been given.  She immediately got over the rape and didn't even bother to report it to police it seems.




So what? That's how she chose to respond to the situation. It sounds like she made the choice to accept reality as it unfolded and chose to move on and live her life regardless. I fail to comprehend what is so detrimental about that. :confused:

Quote:


Blocking something out is not getting over it.  Accepting it is.




Obviously, and obviously she simply accepted it. It doesn't mean she has to accept the identity of being a victim. :rolleyes:

Quote:


You are the one that asked why it wasn't that simple to just "get over it" your previous post.  Sounds like you where the one arguing the case to just get over it to me ?




Asking a question isn't arguing a case. :rofl2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblecloudtripper
Knock and theDoor will open
Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 175
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7395425 - 09/11/07 07:51 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

So what? That's how she chose to respond to the situation. It sounds like she made the choice to accept reality as it unfolded and chose to move on and live her life regardless. I fail to comprehend what is so detrimental about that.




It is simply not realistic and it gives the idea that a victim of a violent crime can control the effect that it has on them. That's dreamworld, not reality. As I said, psychological damage is just as real is physical damage, just as you can't choose not to be damaged physically you can't choose to not be damage psychologically.

It was only a few days ago I was watching a movie on Tibet and saw a devoted Buddhist monk completely break into tears when he tried to recount his time in a Chinese prison and the terrible treatment he received.

Just as you can't just walk off with a broken leg, you don't just walk away from a violent crime committed against you without psychological damage. If you did then it would be somewhat pathetic, akin to someone walking on their freshly broken leg. Dreamworld stuff and dangerous when it comes to empathizing with such victims.


--------------------
Always come back again. Never come back the same.


Edited by cloudtripper (09/11/07 08:00 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBard
Ultrahuman
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/10/01
Posts: 172
Last seen: 4 years, 4 months
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: Lion]
    #7395428 - 09/11/07 07:52 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

What if we are all victims. Every time. Victims of life. We are born crying, don't we? We just learn to tell ourselves that it doesn't hurt that much. And that we like it. We can learn to like almost anything.


--------------------
So dreaming let's you know reality exists.



I don't belive. I fear.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblecloudtripper
Knock and theDoor will open
Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 175
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: Bard]
    #7395437 - 09/11/07 07:57 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Well the first noble Truth, Life is suffering.


--------------------
Always come back again. Never come back the same.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineshakercee
Atheistic Mystic
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/08/07
Posts: 606
Loc: Here and there
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: cloudtripper]
    #7395531 - 09/11/07 08:52 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Well the first noble Truth, Life is suffering.




No, it is the first untruth. :nonono:


--------------------
Pray, v.: To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy - Ambrose Bierce

Medical science has confirmed what the male world has known intuitively for millenia: that scratching your ass is a great aid to complex thinking.

Its God's responsibility to forgive the terrorist organizations such as Jaish, Lashkar etc.
Its our responsibility to arrange the meeting between them and god."
- Indian Armed Forces

"Hey Monkey!! Get Funky" - Tarzan and Jane


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleTaharka
The Root of the Problem
Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 686
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: Lion]
    #7395574 - 09/11/07 09:15 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

In order to be happy we need to, for a time, ignore the suffering of others, and by doing so we are doing them a great disservice.
No doubt someone will say that wallowing in despair does nothing to help those who suffer. Still, can we truly be happy without at least temporarily turning a blind eye to the suffering of other sentient beings? Just a thought.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: Veritas]
    #7395740 - 09/11/07 10:25 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

When I consider my circumstances, past and present, it seems more powerful to frame events as opportunities to respond. Victimhood is a passive reaction to difficult circumstances, and that approach does not work for me.




Why does 'victimhood' - whatever that means - necessarily cause the victim to become passive? Do you think people who consider themselves victims of a crime do not try to respond to that crime at all, during and after? Why is victim such a horrible thing to consider oneself?

If you've been intentionally attacked and injured by someone, then not considering yourself a victim is just denying reality. Whatever you decide to do after you've become a victim is up to you.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: Bard]
    #7395781 - 09/11/07 10:47 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Bard said:
What if we are all victims. Every time. Victims of life. We are born crying, don't we? We just learn to tell ourselves that it doesn't hurt that much. And that we like it. We can learn to like almost anything.




What if we are victims? The question is, what way of thinking about that will bring the best life experience.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleVeritas
 User Gallery
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #7395788 - 09/11/07 10:49 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

It is passive because it involves defining oneself by someone else's actions.  When one says "I am a victim," it does not describe any quality or action which is within one's personal control.  It also brings the event into the present tense, rather than defining it as something which occurred in the past & is now over.  To me, this term has connotations of learned helplessness, and THAT is what is so horrible about it.  :thumbdown:

How is it denying reality to reject negative terminology?  :confused:  It might be denying reality if I said "I have never been attacked by anyone," but one can fully accept reality without accepting a particular means of framing events.

An analogy which comes to mind:

When I was born, it was accurate to call me a newborn.  The same is true of everyone.  If I object to being called a newborn 35 years later, am I denying reality?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: Taharka]
    #7395790 - 09/11/07 10:50 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

In order to be happy we need to, for a time, ignore the suffering of others, and by doing so we are doing them a great disservice.

No way Jose. We do no disservice to anyone by ignoring them. Each person is responsible for how they feel about what happens to them.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBlueCoyote
Beyond
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 16 days
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: Icelander]
    #7395862 - 09/11/07 11:14 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Sure, but is it healthy to have good feeling about something bad happening to oneself if there's no way out ?
Else one ever will perceive unavoidable and unconquerable 'BAD' as suffering. Else is delusion.
So giving them a chance out of unconquerable and unavoidable 'bad' may bring an end to their suffering.
I think, oneself would be very happy if that happens to oneself.
This happiness can be reflected back to the helper, of course.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Female User Gallery


Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: cloudtripper]
    #7396248 - 09/11/07 12:59 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

It is simply not realistic and it gives the idea that a victim of a violent crime can control the effect that it has on them. That's dreamworld, not reality. As I said, psychological damage is just as real is physical damage, just as you can't choose not to be damaged physically you can't choose to not be damage psychologically.




What?
Saying that we are weak in front of our emotions and that we can't change our mood and the way we feel about life (generally or on a particular aspect, yes, even the ones where we hurt A LOT) is daunting. Not to mention that it's untrue.
We can not choose or prevent some unfortunate things that happen to us, but we can choose how we feel about them after they happened.
The reason why I think one could have problems in believing that is because one never really tried to take control over his life and mind and fell into that well-spread myth that we are weak and our feelings depend on something that exists independently and outside of us.

Quote:

It was only a few days ago I was watching a movie on Tibet and saw a devoted Buddhist monk completely break into tears when he tried to recount his time in a Chinese prison and the terrible treatment he received.




What does it have to do with this subject?
Seeing a movie in which one is still hurt by the past (yes, even a Buddhist monk :rolleyes:)does not affirm your statement on a general, universal level.
I think you're totally missing the point here. Nobody is saying that one is NOT allowed to feel hurt when something bad happened to them. The point is that we are able to take over our emotions and that we can choose to considerably reduce that feeling up to the phase where we even become totally unattached to it. THIS happens when we realize how futile and even totally self destructive is for us to continue to feel bad.
One can still feel compassion for someone who's psychologically hurt. In fact, being Compassionate and also Aware has a result making the one who's hurt realize the fact that they could just stop feeling bad, if they choose to. It doesn't show any sign of disrespect towards that person or what happened to them. Lamenting does not help, it's only a fake impression that we get, and that's not even ours but it's something that we borrowed from copying what we see around us.

Quote:

Just as you can't just walk off with a broken leg, you don't just walk away from a violent crime committed against you without psychological damage. If you did then it would be somewhat pathetic, akin to someone walking on their freshly broken leg. Dreamworld stuff and dangerous when it comes to empathizing with such victims.




And who said you can't walk away with a broken leg? It all comes down to determination.
Let's say that somebody's being attacked and they're beaten up. Let's say that the attacker is still there and the victim knows that he/she's still in danger, and that by walking away they would rid themselves of that danger.
Now the leg might hurt like hell, but when it comes to considering what's more severe (a momentarily pain or the risk of losing one's life), the victim would be able to stand the hell up and even run away from the danger.
It's the same thing in psychological damage. If the "victim" realizes what kind of danger is ahead of them if they keep feeling sorry and bitter about what happened, then they can consciously decide that it's about time to start living again, free from all that sorrow. :sun:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleVeritas
 User Gallery
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7396499 - 09/11/07 01:52 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

that well-spread myth that we are weak and our feelings depend on something that exists independently and outside of us.




Exactly. It is highly likely that extremely traumatic events will have a negative impact on our emotions, but the depth and duration of that impact is most definitely within our control.

The physical equivalent is not a broken leg, but being pushed & falling to the ground. Almost everyone will fall down from a hard, unexpected shove. A few will have the reflexes and strength to rebalance themselves before they fall, and a few will have the resilience to stand up again immediately. This strength and resilience is something we can all build within ourselves, and it does not come from calling oneself a victim.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleTaharka
The Root of the Problem
Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 686
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: Icelander]
    #7398057 - 09/11/07 07:31 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
No way Jose. We do no disservice to anyone by ignoring them. Each person is responsible for how they feel about what happens to them.




You can't seriously mean that, no matter the horrible circumstances on finds oneself in, one is entirely responsible for how one feels about them. Every day people are tortured, for example, victims of man's depravity and cruelty to his fellow man. And you're telling me that the victim alone is responsible for not being happy about his state? Then there are the victims of genocide, those of famine, those of preventable diseases. Things that we as a race could put an end to if we so desired. And you say that the people who suffer alone are responsible for how they feel, and that those of us who have it better needn't feel even a little bit guilty about the things we take for granted that they'll never have?

And especially that you would say this about feeling, about emotion. We don't have too much control over what we feel in the first place.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblecloudtripper
Knock and theDoor will open
Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 175
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: Taharka]
    #7398956 - 09/11/07 11:22 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

It's the same thing in psychological damage. If the "victim" realizes what kind of danger is ahead of them if they keep feeling sorry and bitter about what happened, then they can consciously decide that it's about time to start living again, free from all that sorrow.




I'm not saying that the victim should live in misery for ever after, although they might .. some people do break (the young, the elderly), you can't blame them for that.

That's the thing about being a victim, you can't blame a victim. By saying I was a victim of a violent crime, you are riding yourself of any guilt on your part and accepting it wasn't your fault.

What I am saying that if someone is raped or suffers some other traumatic event, like seeing their family chopped up in front of them, you don't expect them to come from such an event without psychological damage. It isn't a matter of just been tough, that approach just leads to further problems down the track, just as if you ignore the fact you have a broken limb it will not heal properly. Everything that goes into your head affects you.

As I said if a devoted elderly Tibetan Monk broke down and cried his eyes out when he recounted the treatment he received in prison years before (and btw there is a type of Genocide happening in Tibet right now by China which everybody should be disgusted about) ... then why would we expect the average raw person to be able to control the effects of such an event.

Damage is done, it is real, then healing needs to take place, and yeah, some people just might not be able to get over such an event ... shame on those meek people, shame on those who don't have the strength shrug off such a terror and who are broken and live their life with permanent scares.


--------------------
Always come back again. Never come back the same.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineViveka
refutation bias
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/21/02
Posts: 4,061
Last seen: 7 years, 3 months
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #7399439 - 09/12/07 04:04 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Whatever you decide to do after you've become a victim is up to you.




What’s the use of that extra layer of definition to begin with? The statement is completely frivolous. It’s like saying “Whatever you decide to do after you’ve become handicapped is up to you” “Or whatever you decide to do once you’ve become a smoker/sexual deviant/alcoholic is up to you”.

The whole implication of the language is that you are now subject to a certain condition that will influence and limit your potential from now on.

Also, these are all terms: victim, handicapped, smoker, addict, that basically function as a way of removing accountability at some level. The “handicapped” shouldn’t be expected to do things “non-handicapped” people can do. The smoker shouldn’t be expected to be able to control his habit, after all, he’s a smoker, that’s what he does. Why not cast off these extra layers of inadequate and limiting interpretation of reality. Or is it that these definitions serve a useful purpose somehow?

If I’m beaten nearly to death randomly in the street, and I embrace this “victimhood” as someone who has been subjected to the painful tyranny of another, how does that in any way make me better off than if I just experienced being beaten, but never emphasized the element of victimization I experienced? I’m not going to experience a speedier recovery mentally or physically by clinging to the notion that I have been victimized. If anything, this is only going to give it more weight and impact, when the most healing thing would be to let go any emotional weight associated with it and move beyond it. The only usefulness of the victim label is as a way to somehow leverage power over others.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBard
Ultrahuman
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/10/01
Posts: 172
Last seen: 4 years, 4 months
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: Icelander]
    #7399489 - 09/12/07 04:45 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

Bard said:
What if we are all victims. Every time. Victims of life. We are born crying, don't we? We just learn to tell ourselves that it doesn't hurt that much. And that we like it. We can learn to like almost anything.




What if we are victims? The question is, what way of thinking about that will bring the best life experience.




I don't know (of course?)... But maybe we should view our victimhood as nothing special... And turn our mind to more pleasurable, or interesting matters... But how do we turn away others' minds from their suffering?


--------------------
So dreaming let's you know reality exists.



I don't belive. I fear.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Female User Gallery


Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: cloudtripper]
    #7399682 - 09/12/07 07:06 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

I'm not saying that the victim should live in misery for ever after, although they might .. some people do break (the young, the elderly), you can't blame them for that.

That's the thing about being a victim, you can't blame a victim. By saying I was a victim of a violent crime, you are riding yourself of any guilt on your part and accepting it wasn't your fault.




Where did anybody here was blaming victims?
Are you not able to pay attention to this discussion?
This can go on forever, things are being explained to you and then you come back and bring the same arguments that you brought last time.
That being said, again: nobody here was blaming any victim. However, this doesn't mean that one can't explain what are the effects of victimhood.
You said: "By saying I was a victim of a violent crime, you are riding yourself of any guilt on your part and accepting it wasn't your fault."
Ridding yourself of any guilt? :what:
That sounds like explaining yourself, for the misfortune you've been through, to the public. It is exactly another point I wish to make. The notion of being a victim is a social regulation. It means it depends on what other people think, a well defined group of people deciding what being a victim means. This is where the guilt comes from, and from the moment you realize it's origins, how can you feel guilty for something that you already knew you had no power of decision? Is it more important to be understood and "forgiven" by the public than healing yourself?
Considering yourself a victim takes away from personal power right from the start, because of the limitations of the term.
Victim:

Quote:

1. a person who suffers from a destructive or injurious action or agency: a victim of an automobile accident.
2. a person who is deceived or cheated, as by his or her own emotions or ignorance, by the dishonesty of others, or by some impersonal agency: a victim of misplaced confidence; the victim of a swindler; a victim of an optical illusion.
3. a person or animal sacrificed or regarded as sacrificed: war victims.
4. a living creature sacrificed in religious rites.




Can you see what are the limitations?
Someone who thinks about themselves as being deceived, fooled, sacrificed and the like, will apply those description in many other domains of their lives, which in extent will make them unable to use their Will, power and determination. It is something discouraging and it's exactly what stops someone from healing.

Quote:

What I am saying that if someone is raped or suffers some other traumatic event, like seeing their family chopped up in front of them, you don't expect them to come from such an event without psychological damage. It isn't a matter of just been tough, that approach just leads to further problems down the track, just as if you ignore the fact you have a broken limb it will not heal properly.




You got it all wrong again.
Of course you don't "expect" from anyone anything. Who was talking hare about expectations? With the risk of repeating myself, this discussion observes what the victim mentality implies, and what are the disadvantages of using it.
It's like saying that you can't expect something better from politics, sports or whatever, simply because you note the flaws they have. If we were to think like that, no progress or growth would ever happen. :rolleyes:
Now can you please explain me, in reasonable terms, how refusing to consider yourself a victim is ignoring the problem? The problem is not that you are a victim (which is a symbol and nothing more than that). The problem are those feelings one has after a traumatic event. Focusing on the symbol instead of focusing on what's behind it, what's real (the feelings), is in this case ignoring the problem.
And yet, this is another inconvenience for considering yourself a victim.
Real healing happens when we deal with those emotions, not with a symbol.

Quote:

Everything that goes into your head affects you.




Exactly.
So then tell me, why are we fighting about?
This is exactly what I keep trying to explain here to you.
If you consider you are a victim, it affects you. So why do it? :confused:

Quote:

As I said if a devoted elderly Tibetan Monk broke down and cried his eyes out when he recounted the treatment he received in prison years before (and btw there is a type of Genocide happening in Tibet right now by China which everybody should be disgusted about) ... then why would we expect the average raw person to be able to control the effects of such an event.




And again, another mistake.
Why should a Tibetan monk be considered more "skillful" than an "average" person?
And most of all, who are you to settle who is average and who is beyond average?
A Tibetan monk is just another term, another "logo".
If something bad happens to me, should I feel discouraged thinking that not even a Tibetan monk was able to get over his misfortune, so how could I ever be able to do that?
When all it takes is determination and awareness upon the fact that I can shift my own emotions, any time I want or need to do so, for my own good?
You talk about emotions like they are something independent from us. As long as they're ours, it means that we have control over them.
Can you say that you are not responsible for what your hand does? I think not. Well, that's the case with emotions too.
Also you said: "and btw there is a type of Genocide happening in Tibet right now by China which everybody should be disgusted about".
Why would anyone "should" just feel disgusted? Just because that's "the right thing"? :crazy:
Why does it have to be a rule? There are SO many other misfortunes in this world, things that we're not even aware of. Do those people deserve less sympathy?

Quote:

Damage is done, it is real, then healing needs to take place, and yeah, some people just might not be able to get over such an event ... shame on those meek people, shame on those who don't have the strength shrug off such a terror and who are broken and live their life with permanent scares.




Please read all the above...


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblecloudtripper
Knock and theDoor will open
Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 175
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7399837 - 09/12/07 08:20 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I stand by the fact that labelling yourself a victim is not negative, (if you are one), as per my previous posts. I have nothing to add to my previous posts about that.

Yes guilt, many victims of violent crime feel guilty for being there or feel guilty for some silly reason.

I also stand by the fact that phycological damage isn't something that can be avoided or shrugged off in some situations, unlike the story of the Buddhist Nun that I was replying about. If only it was that easy.

Yes, I would consider a Tibeten monk more skillfull than many as his skill is control of his mind and emotions, especially one who has been devout for 40 years of his life.

And yeah, I think we are starting to go around in circles now and I am starting to repeat myself. Each persons position is clear on this.


--------------------
Always come back again. Never come back the same.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblecloudtripper
Knock and theDoor will open
Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 175
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: cloudtripper]
    #7399860 - 09/12/07 08:30 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Also, these are all terms: victim, handicapped, smoker, addict, that basically function as a way of removing accountability at some level. The “handicapped” shouldn't’t be expected to do things “non-handicapped” people can do. The smoker shouldn't’t be expected to be able to control his habit, after all, he’s a smoker, that’s what he does. Why not cast off these extra layers of inadequate and limiting interpretation of reality. Or is it that these definitions serve a useful purpose somehow?





But they do serve a purpose. They tell the truth.

When an addict calls himself an addict he is telling himself the truth. Now he accepts that truth and can do something about it.

A handicapped person is handicapped, that is the truth of the matter. They accept that truth and live their lives.

In a victims case it does remove accountability, that is the whole point.


--------------------
Always come back again. Never come back the same.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: Viveka]
    #7399988 - 09/12/07 09:13 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The whole implication of the language is that you are now subject to a certain condition that will influence and limit your potential from now on.




How so? The definition of a victim does not include anything about limited potential. You are the one that created that arbitrary connotation. A victim is a simple descriptive term - it is the opposite of a culprit. Being a victim does not prescribe or impose any sort of particular behavior.

Quote:

The “handicapped” shouldn’t be expected to do things “non-handicapped” people can do.




Well, duh. That is why they get special parking places.

Quote:

The smoker shouldn’t be expected to be able to control his habit, after all, he’s a smoker, that’s what he does.




Huh?

Quote:

I’m not going to experience a speedier recovery mentally or physically by clinging to the notion that I have been victimized. If anything, this is only going to give it more weight and impact, when the most healing thing would be to let go any emotional weight associated with it and move beyond it.




If someone could just "let go", believe me, they would. Unfortunately, life is not as simple as that. You would be surprised just how beneficial understanding you're a victim is. When a person has experienced a traumatic event, one of the first things a clinical psychologist explains during the debriefing is that they're a victim. It the case of rape and other sexual crimes, it is even more important. Understanding your place in the chain of events that caused trauma or injury can be more therapeutic than you realize.


Edited by MushmanTheManic (09/12/07 12:00 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: cloudtripper]
    #7400128 - 09/12/07 10:11 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

cloudtripper said:
I stand by the fact that labelling yourself a victim is not negative,  (if you are one), as per my previous posts.




And how does one determine if they are a victim or not? What is the standard by which one judges whether or not one is a victim? :sherlock:

I assert that establishing one's identity as an individual who is suffering implies centering oneself in negativity, as it establishes that one is suffering, and the experience of suffering is negative, not preferred.

Now, if one is suffering, does one establish an identity based upon that suffering? The terms we associate with ourselves determine who we are. I am not going to refer back to your responses to me that I have not yet replied to directly, yet you have asserted in this thread that one cannot determine the extent of one's psychological damage, that it stems from the external world and is subject to the same laws of physics and biology that state that force applied upon one's physical body translates into the physical experience of pain.

Yet, strangely enough, sadists and masochists derive pleasure from the experience of pain.... and the same car accident that might cause one person to sink into a state of deep depression and anxiety, might bring another to truly appreciate the opportunity to live life, in the most amazing ways.

Is refusing to associate oneself with the identity of a victim a refusal of reality? Certainly not. For practical purposes, one might state that they were the victim of a car robbery, but is it necessary to establish that oneself is a victim in order to accept or state the nature of reality? Could one not also say, My car was stolen? :strokebeard:

Perhaps we should review one of the common usages of the word victim...

Quote:


a person who suffers from a destructive or injurious action or agency: a victim of an automobile accident.




Now, quite a bit of ambiguity is likely being derived from the word "suffer". Suffer could imply pain, distress, injury.... or it could simply mean "to undergo, or experience". Now, if our discussion were centered around the latter, uttering the phrase "I'm a victim of an automobile accident" would be of no concern in regards to the positions that MushroomTrip and Veritas are both so eloquently holding (:heartpump:), yet clearly we are not discussing that definition of the word suffering, when we refer to the word victim. We are talking about psychological pain and distress, aren't we?

Now, what benefit does it serve to oneself to affirm to oneself that one is an individual that is experiencing psychological pain and distress, especially when one is the sole determining factor as to whether or not one experiences that? Let us not confuse physical pain with mental suffering - the specific processes that result in the experience of physical pain are well understood, simple cause and effect. With mental suffering, who the individual is and how they respond to reality determines whether or not they will mentally suffer (referring to, again, the apt definition of the term), and, if so, to what extent.

And, not to mention, once again, some individuals derive pleasure from physical pain! Some people might actually enjoy being smacked around with bats. Pain, of course, is simply a neurological signal - the experience of that signal relies upon the nature of the individual for it to be determined.

I feel compassion for those who suffer. I've suffered. I'm not a victim. This isn't denial; this is choosing who I am, the most profound ability we human beings have. When one realizes that one is bringing suffering upon themself, why continue the practice? It is perfectly understandable that most individuals are not aware to the point at which this begins to be possible, and the upmost compassion to them. Compassion for all, in all ways. The fact that they suffer does not change the true nature of suffering, nor does it prevent me from realizing it, accepting a path of utilizing the understanding to better myself and my experience of reality, or for myself to speak for the realization, in the face of the realization that most do choose, quite unawarely, to suffer. :yinyang:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineAhimsa
µdose
Male


Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,827
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: Lion]
    #7400185 - 09/12/07 10:25 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

true and thanks for this beautifull insight:thumbup:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleVeritas
 User Gallery
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: Taharka]
    #7400217 - 09/12/07 10:38 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

We don't have too much control over what we feel in the first place.





Yes, we do, in fact. This control is an ability which must be developed, much like muscular strength, but we all have the potential to manage our own emotions skillfully. This is exactly why I see labeling oneself as a victim is detrimental, because it permanently defines the person as not responsible. The truth of the matter is that someone who is attacked is not responsible for the event, and 100% responsible for what they do afterwards.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: Taharka]
    #7400268 - 09/12/07 11:00 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Taharka said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
No way Jose. We do no disservice to anyone by ignoring them. Each person is responsible for how they feel about what happens to them.




You can't seriously mean that, no matter the horrible circumstances on finds oneself in, one is entirely responsible for how one feels about them. Every day people are tortured, for example, victims of man's depravity and cruelty to his fellow man. And you're telling me that the victim alone is responsible for not being happy about his state? Then there are the victims of genocide, those of famine, those of preventable diseases. Things that we as a race could put an end to if we so desired. And you say that the people who suffer alone are responsible for how they feel, and that those of us who have it better needn't feel even a little bit guilty about the things we take for granted that they'll never have?

And especially that you would say this about feeling, about emotion. We don't have too much control over what we feel in the first place.




I'm talking about emotionally ignoring them. If someone is suffering somewhere in the world I am doing them no disservice by ignoring that. If I was you would have to take it to the extreme and I would be responsible for being aware and thinking about each and every bit of suffering in the world. That would have no effect except to ruin my life experience. See what I mean? I can choose to help anyone I want but I am not responsible for being aware of or thinking about anyones experience but my own.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblecloudtripper
Knock and theDoor will open
Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 175
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7403151 - 09/12/07 11:24 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

And how does one determine if they are a victim or not? What is the standard by which one judges whether or not one is a victim?




If someone is raped, clearly they are a victim of someone elses actions. Clearly they are a victim.


--------------------
Always come back again. Never come back the same.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Female User Gallery


Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: cloudtripper]
    #7403219 - 09/12/07 11:49 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Clearly you're talking about a definition, not about what a person really has inside.
Tell me, if the term of victim would simply not exist in any dictionary, what would you call someone who had an unfortunate experience? :strokebeard:
Why should we bring more suffering into our lives, by identifying with that characterization? It just feels so ritualistic and superstitious... :confused:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePoppyRider
Mad Scientist
Male

Registered: 09/07/07
Posts: 152
Loc: Orange County, Ca
Last seen: 16 years, 3 months
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7403258 - 09/13/07 12:11 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

im confused...why do you even bring this up?? are you pissed at someone or something haha


--------------------
you make every thing grooooovyy


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Female User Gallery


Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: PoppyRider]
    #7403282 - 09/13/07 12:21 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Why do I even bring what up?
From what I gather, this is an open discussion, and I was arguing about specific points, for specific reasons, which are not hard to detect.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePoppyRider
Mad Scientist
Male

Registered: 09/07/07
Posts: 152
Loc: Orange County, Ca
Last seen: 16 years, 3 months
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7403503 - 09/13/07 01:29 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

yea the ass hole in me kinda came out there...sorry dude sometimes it happends :blush:


--------------------
you make every thing grooooovyy


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: PoppyRider]
    #7403544 - 09/13/07 01:51 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Correction: dudette


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineViveka
refutation bias
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/21/02
Posts: 4,061
Last seen: 7 years, 3 months
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: cloudtripper]
    #7403594 - 09/13/07 02:20 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:


    Quote:
    The whole implication of the language is that you are now subject to a certain condition that will influence and limit your potential from now on.



How so? The definition of a victim does not include anything about limited potential. You are the one that created that arbitrary connotation. A victim is a simple descriptive term - it is the opposite of a culprit. Being a victim does not prescribe or impose any sort of particular behavior.





Quote:


    Quote:
    And how does one determine if they are a victim or not? What is the standard by which one judges whether or not one is a victim?



If someone is raped, clearly they are a victim of someone elses actions. Clearly they are a victim.





So a victim is only someone who has been on the receiving end of a crime?  How about a person who is born with a disadvantage, say a neurological disease?  Is this person a victim?  Or do they not count because their suffering isn't enacted on them by a tangibly external force?  If yes, please make a point about why regarding oneself as a victim is useful or healthy, other than "realizing that what happened to them wasn't their fault".

Quote:


    Quote:
    The %u201Chandicapped%u201D shouldn%u2019t be expected to do things %u201Cnon-handicapped%u201D people can do.:awesome:



Well, duh. That is why they get special parking places.



That's why I put "handicapped" in quotes.  Doesn't everyone have strengths in certain areas and weaknesses in others?  There are people who choose to go on disability and not work, while another person in pretty much the same situation may choose not to go that route, and continue earning their own wage.  Is the person who chooses the disability route the victim while the other guy isn't, or are they both victims and the second guy just isn't taking full advantage of his victimhood? 

Quote:


    Quote:
    The smoker shouldn't be expected to be able to control his habit, after all, he's a smoker, that's what he does.



Huh?





Another way to look at it is what if you had had recently taken up cigarettes and had been smoking for a month or so.  If you were somehow surveyed on the matter, would you check the box next to smoker?  That would imply that your future was determined. So just as it is important to cast off labels and external definition, so that you encounter the least resistance in undertaking new endeavors, it's most prudent to avoid routines, behaviors, and emotional indulgences that beckon those labels.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePoppyRider
Mad Scientist
Male

Registered: 09/07/07
Posts: 152
Loc: Orange County, Ca
Last seen: 16 years, 3 months
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: Viveka]
    #7406379 - 09/13/07 09:05 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

yea dudette works i guess haha


--------------------
you make every thing grooooovyy


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7406420 - 09/13/07 09:15 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Correction: dudette




No, its dude. :shrug:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Female User Gallery


Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7406445 - 09/13/07 09:19 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)



:hehehe:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7406771 - 09/13/07 10:26 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

You're scaring me. :shiftyeyes: You know something I don't?


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7408095 - 09/14/07 08:22 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Yes, that the word "dude" in the world of stoners is a neutral term that does not imply gender. When considering that we are speaking of stoners, it is perhaps this way due to the fact that "dude" is one syllable, whereas saying "dudette" is rather inelegant. :smirk:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Female User Gallery


Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7408115 - 09/14/07 08:29 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

One of these days I'm gonna eat you alive... :cannibal:
Call it stoner munchies if you like :smirk:
:loveeyes:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7408284 - 09/14/07 09:30 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

"dudette" is rather inelegant.

So fucking true.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: Icelander]
    #7408571 - 09/14/07 10:55 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

But not as bad as Icelanderella...


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7408576 - 09/14/07 10:57 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Also true.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5  [ show all ]

Shop: PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder, Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom


Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
7,016 topic views. 2 members, 11 guests and 8 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.061 seconds spending 0.01 seconds on 14 queries.