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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: cloudtripper]
#7396248 - 09/11/07 12:59 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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It is simply not realistic and it gives the idea that a victim of a violent crime can control the effect that it has on them. That's dreamworld, not reality. As I said, psychological damage is just as real is physical damage, just as you can't choose not to be damaged physically you can't choose to not be damage psychologically.
What? Saying that we are weak in front of our emotions and that we can't change our mood and the way we feel about life (generally or on a particular aspect, yes, even the ones where we hurt A LOT) is daunting. Not to mention that it's untrue. We can not choose or prevent some unfortunate things that happen to us, but we can choose how we feel about them after they happened. The reason why I think one could have problems in believing that is because one never really tried to take control over his life and mind and fell into that well-spread myth that we are weak and our feelings depend on something that exists independently and outside of us.
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It was only a few days ago I was watching a movie on Tibet and saw a devoted Buddhist monk completely break into tears when he tried to recount his time in a Chinese prison and the terrible treatment he received.
What does it have to do with this subject? Seeing a movie in which one is still hurt by the past (yes, even a Buddhist monk )does not affirm your statement on a general, universal level. I think you're totally missing the point here. Nobody is saying that one is NOT allowed to feel hurt when something bad happened to them. The point is that we are able to take over our emotions and that we can choose to considerably reduce that feeling up to the phase where we even become totally unattached to it. THIS happens when we realize how futile and even totally self destructive is for us to continue to feel bad. One can still feel compassion for someone who's psychologically hurt. In fact, being Compassionate and also Aware has a result making the one who's hurt realize the fact that they could just stop feeling bad, if they choose to. It doesn't show any sign of disrespect towards that person or what happened to them. Lamenting does not help, it's only a fake impression that we get, and that's not even ours but it's something that we borrowed from copying what we see around us.
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Just as you can't just walk off with a broken leg, you don't just walk away from a violent crime committed against you without psychological damage. If you did then it would be somewhat pathetic, akin to someone walking on their freshly broken leg. Dreamworld stuff and dangerous when it comes to empathizing with such victims.
And who said you can't walk away with a broken leg? It all comes down to determination. Let's say that somebody's being attacked and they're beaten up. Let's say that the attacker is still there and the victim knows that he/she's still in danger, and that by walking away they would rid themselves of that danger. Now the leg might hurt like hell, but when it comes to considering what's more severe (a momentarily pain or the risk of losing one's life), the victim would be able to stand the hell up and even run away from the danger. It's the same thing in psychological damage. If the "victim" realizes what kind of danger is ahead of them if they keep feeling sorry and bitter about what happened, then they can consciously decide that it's about time to start living again, free from all that sorrow.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7396499 - 09/11/07 01:52 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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that well-spread myth that we are weak and our feelings depend on something that exists independently and outside of us.
Exactly. It is highly likely that extremely traumatic events will have a negative impact on our emotions, but the depth and duration of that impact is most definitely within our control.
The physical equivalent is not a broken leg, but being pushed & falling to the ground. Almost everyone will fall down from a hard, unexpected shove. A few will have the reflexes and strength to rebalance themselves before they fall, and a few will have the resilience to stand up again immediately. This strength and resilience is something we can all build within ourselves, and it does not come from calling oneself a victim.
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Taharka
The Root of the Problem

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 686
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Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: Icelander]
#7398057 - 09/11/07 07:31 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Icelander said: No way Jose. We do no disservice to anyone by ignoring them. Each person is responsible for how they feel about what happens to them.
You can't seriously mean that, no matter the horrible circumstances on finds oneself in, one is entirely responsible for how one feels about them. Every day people are tortured, for example, victims of man's depravity and cruelty to his fellow man. And you're telling me that the victim alone is responsible for not being happy about his state? Then there are the victims of genocide, those of famine, those of preventable diseases. Things that we as a race could put an end to if we so desired. And you say that the people who suffer alone are responsible for how they feel, and that those of us who have it better needn't feel even a little bit guilty about the things we take for granted that they'll never have?
And especially that you would say this about feeling, about emotion. We don't have too much control over what we feel in the first place.
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cloudtripper
Knock and theDoor will open
Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 175
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Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: Taharka]
#7398956 - 09/11/07 11:22 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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It's the same thing in psychological damage. If the "victim" realizes what kind of danger is ahead of them if they keep feeling sorry and bitter about what happened, then they can consciously decide that it's about time to start living again, free from all that sorrow.
I'm not saying that the victim should live in misery for ever after, although they might .. some people do break (the young, the elderly), you can't blame them for that.
That's the thing about being a victim, you can't blame a victim. By saying I was a victim of a violent crime, you are riding yourself of any guilt on your part and accepting it wasn't your fault.
What I am saying that if someone is raped or suffers some other traumatic event, like seeing their family chopped up in front of them, you don't expect them to come from such an event without psychological damage. It isn't a matter of just been tough, that approach just leads to further problems down the track, just as if you ignore the fact you have a broken limb it will not heal properly. Everything that goes into your head affects you.
As I said if a devoted elderly Tibetan Monk broke down and cried his eyes out when he recounted the treatment he received in prison years before (and btw there is a type of Genocide happening in Tibet right now by China which everybody should be disgusted about) ... then why would we expect the average raw person to be able to control the effects of such an event.
Damage is done, it is real, then healing needs to take place, and yeah, some people just might not be able to get over such an event ... shame on those meek people, shame on those who don't have the strength shrug off such a terror and who are broken and live their life with permanent scares.
-------------------- Always come back again. Never come back the same.
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Viveka
refutation bias


Registered: 10/21/02
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Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: MushmanTheManic]
#7399439 - 09/12/07 04:04 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Whatever you decide to do after you've become a victim is up to you.
What’s the use of that extra layer of definition to begin with? The statement is completely frivolous. It’s like saying “Whatever you decide to do after you’ve become handicapped is up to you” “Or whatever you decide to do once you’ve become a smoker/sexual deviant/alcoholic is up to you”.
The whole implication of the language is that you are now subject to a certain condition that will influence and limit your potential from now on.
Also, these are all terms: victim, handicapped, smoker, addict, that basically function as a way of removing accountability at some level. The “handicapped” shouldn’t be expected to do things “non-handicapped” people can do. The smoker shouldn’t be expected to be able to control his habit, after all, he’s a smoker, that’s what he does. Why not cast off these extra layers of inadequate and limiting interpretation of reality. Or is it that these definitions serve a useful purpose somehow?
If I’m beaten nearly to death randomly in the street, and I embrace this “victimhood” as someone who has been subjected to the painful tyranny of another, how does that in any way make me better off than if I just experienced being beaten, but never emphasized the element of victimization I experienced? I’m not going to experience a speedier recovery mentally or physically by clinging to the notion that I have been victimized. If anything, this is only going to give it more weight and impact, when the most healing thing would be to let go any emotional weight associated with it and move beyond it. The only usefulness of the victim label is as a way to somehow leverage power over others.
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Bard
Ultrahuman


Registered: 09/10/01
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Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: Icelander]
#7399489 - 09/12/07 04:45 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Icelander said:
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Bard said: What if we are all victims. Every time. Victims of life. We are born crying, don't we? We just learn to tell ourselves that it doesn't hurt that much. And that we like it. We can learn to like almost anything.
What if we are victims? The question is, what way of thinking about that will bring the best life experience.
I don't know (of course?)... But maybe we should view our victimhood as nothing special... And turn our mind to more pleasurable, or interesting matters... But how do we turn away others' minds from their suffering?
-------------------- So dreaming let's you know reality exists.
I don't belive. I fear.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: cloudtripper]
#7399682 - 09/12/07 07:06 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I'm not saying that the victim should live in misery for ever after, although they might .. some people do break (the young, the elderly), you can't blame them for that.
That's the thing about being a victim, you can't blame a victim. By saying I was a victim of a violent crime, you are riding yourself of any guilt on your part and accepting it wasn't your fault.
Where did anybody here was blaming victims? Are you not able to pay attention to this discussion? This can go on forever, things are being explained to you and then you come back and bring the same arguments that you brought last time. That being said, again: nobody here was blaming any victim. However, this doesn't mean that one can't explain what are the effects of victimhood. You said: "By saying I was a victim of a violent crime, you are riding yourself of any guilt on your part and accepting it wasn't your fault." Ridding yourself of any guilt?  That sounds like explaining yourself, for the misfortune you've been through, to the public. It is exactly another point I wish to make. The notion of being a victim is a social regulation. It means it depends on what other people think, a well defined group of people deciding what being a victim means. This is where the guilt comes from, and from the moment you realize it's origins, how can you feel guilty for something that you already knew you had no power of decision? Is it more important to be understood and "forgiven" by the public than healing yourself? Considering yourself a victim takes away from personal power right from the start, because of the limitations of the term. Victim:
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1. a person who suffers from a destructive or injurious action or agency: a victim of an automobile accident. 2. a person who is deceived or cheated, as by his or her own emotions or ignorance, by the dishonesty of others, or by some impersonal agency: a victim of misplaced confidence; the victim of a swindler; a victim of an optical illusion. 3. a person or animal sacrificed or regarded as sacrificed: war victims. 4. a living creature sacrificed in religious rites.
Can you see what are the limitations? Someone who thinks about themselves as being deceived, fooled, sacrificed and the like, will apply those description in many other domains of their lives, which in extent will make them unable to use their Will, power and determination. It is something discouraging and it's exactly what stops someone from healing.
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What I am saying that if someone is raped or suffers some other traumatic event, like seeing their family chopped up in front of them, you don't expect them to come from such an event without psychological damage. It isn't a matter of just been tough, that approach just leads to further problems down the track, just as if you ignore the fact you have a broken limb it will not heal properly.
You got it all wrong again. Of course you don't "expect" from anyone anything. Who was talking hare about expectations? With the risk of repeating myself, this discussion observes what the victim mentality implies, and what are the disadvantages of using it. It's like saying that you can't expect something better from politics, sports or whatever, simply because you note the flaws they have. If we were to think like that, no progress or growth would ever happen.  Now can you please explain me, in reasonable terms, how refusing to consider yourself a victim is ignoring the problem? The problem is not that you are a victim (which is a symbol and nothing more than that). The problem are those feelings one has after a traumatic event. Focusing on the symbol instead of focusing on what's behind it, what's real (the feelings), is in this case ignoring the problem. And yet, this is another inconvenience for considering yourself a victim. Real healing happens when we deal with those emotions, not with a symbol.
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Everything that goes into your head affects you.
Exactly. So then tell me, why are we fighting about? This is exactly what I keep trying to explain here to you. If you consider you are a victim, it affects you. So why do it? 
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As I said if a devoted elderly Tibetan Monk broke down and cried his eyes out when he recounted the treatment he received in prison years before (and btw there is a type of Genocide happening in Tibet right now by China which everybody should be disgusted about) ... then why would we expect the average raw person to be able to control the effects of such an event.
And again, another mistake. Why should a Tibetan monk be considered more "skillful" than an "average" person? And most of all, who are you to settle who is average and who is beyond average? A Tibetan monk is just another term, another "logo". If something bad happens to me, should I feel discouraged thinking that not even a Tibetan monk was able to get over his misfortune, so how could I ever be able to do that? When all it takes is determination and awareness upon the fact that I can shift my own emotions, any time I want or need to do so, for my own good? You talk about emotions like they are something independent from us. As long as they're ours, it means that we have control over them. Can you say that you are not responsible for what your hand does? I think not. Well, that's the case with emotions too. Also you said: "and btw there is a type of Genocide happening in Tibet right now by China which everybody should be disgusted about". Why would anyone "should" just feel disgusted? Just because that's "the right thing"?  Why does it have to be a rule? There are SO many other misfortunes in this world, things that we're not even aware of. Do those people deserve less sympathy?
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Damage is done, it is real, then healing needs to take place, and yeah, some people just might not be able to get over such an event ... shame on those meek people, shame on those who don't have the strength shrug off such a terror and who are broken and live their life with permanent scares.
Please read all the above...
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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cloudtripper
Knock and theDoor will open
Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 175
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Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7399837 - 09/12/07 08:20 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I stand by the fact that labelling yourself a victim is not negative, (if you are one), as per my previous posts. I have nothing to add to my previous posts about that.
Yes guilt, many victims of violent crime feel guilty for being there or feel guilty for some silly reason.
I also stand by the fact that phycological damage isn't something that can be avoided or shrugged off in some situations, unlike the story of the Buddhist Nun that I was replying about. If only it was that easy.
Yes, I would consider a Tibeten monk more skillfull than many as his skill is control of his mind and emotions, especially one who has been devout for 40 years of his life.
And yeah, I think we are starting to go around in circles now and I am starting to repeat myself. Each persons position is clear on this.
-------------------- Always come back again. Never come back the same.
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cloudtripper
Knock and theDoor will open
Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 175
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Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: cloudtripper]
#7399860 - 09/12/07 08:30 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Also, these are all terms: victim, handicapped, smoker, addict, that basically function as a way of removing accountability at some level. The “handicapped” shouldn't’t be expected to do things “non-handicapped” people can do. The smoker shouldn't’t be expected to be able to control his habit, after all, he’s a smoker, that’s what he does. Why not cast off these extra layers of inadequate and limiting interpretation of reality. Or is it that these definitions serve a useful purpose somehow?
But they do serve a purpose. They tell the truth.
When an addict calls himself an addict he is telling himself the truth. Now he accepts that truth and can do something about it.
A handicapped person is handicapped, that is the truth of the matter. They accept that truth and live their lives.
In a victims case it does remove accountability, that is the whole point.
-------------------- Always come back again. Never come back the same.
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
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Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: Viveka]
#7399988 - 09/12/07 09:13 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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The whole implication of the language is that you are now subject to a certain condition that will influence and limit your potential from now on.
How so? The definition of a victim does not include anything about limited potential. You are the one that created that arbitrary connotation. A victim is a simple descriptive term - it is the opposite of a culprit. Being a victim does not prescribe or impose any sort of particular behavior.
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The “handicapped” shouldn’t be expected to do things “non-handicapped” people can do.
Well, duh. That is why they get special parking places.
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The smoker shouldn’t be expected to be able to control his habit, after all, he’s a smoker, that’s what he does.
Huh?
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I’m not going to experience a speedier recovery mentally or physically by clinging to the notion that I have been victimized. If anything, this is only going to give it more weight and impact, when the most healing thing would be to let go any emotional weight associated with it and move beyond it.
If someone could just "let go", believe me, they would. Unfortunately, life is not as simple as that. You would be surprised just how beneficial understanding you're a victim is. When a person has experienced a traumatic event, one of the first things a clinical psychologist explains during the debriefing is that they're a victim. It the case of rape and other sexual crimes, it is even more important. Understanding your place in the chain of events that caused trauma or injury can be more therapeutic than you realize.
Edited by MushmanTheManic (09/12/07 12:00 PM)
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
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Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: cloudtripper]
#7400128 - 09/12/07 10:11 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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cloudtripper said: I stand by the fact that labelling yourself a victim is not negative, (if you are one), as per my previous posts.
And how does one determine if they are a victim or not? What is the standard by which one judges whether or not one is a victim?
I assert that establishing one's identity as an individual who is suffering implies centering oneself in negativity, as it establishes that one is suffering, and the experience of suffering is negative, not preferred.
Now, if one is suffering, does one establish an identity based upon that suffering? The terms we associate with ourselves determine who we are. I am not going to refer back to your responses to me that I have not yet replied to directly, yet you have asserted in this thread that one cannot determine the extent of one's psychological damage, that it stems from the external world and is subject to the same laws of physics and biology that state that force applied upon one's physical body translates into the physical experience of pain.
Yet, strangely enough, sadists and masochists derive pleasure from the experience of pain.... and the same car accident that might cause one person to sink into a state of deep depression and anxiety, might bring another to truly appreciate the opportunity to live life, in the most amazing ways.
Is refusing to associate oneself with the identity of a victim a refusal of reality? Certainly not. For practical purposes, one might state that they were the victim of a car robbery, but is it necessary to establish that oneself is a victim in order to accept or state the nature of reality? Could one not also say, My car was stolen?
Perhaps we should review one of the common usages of the word victim...
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a person who suffers from a destructive or injurious action or agency: a victim of an automobile accident.
Now, quite a bit of ambiguity is likely being derived from the word "suffer". Suffer could imply pain, distress, injury.... or it could simply mean "to undergo, or experience". Now, if our discussion were centered around the latter, uttering the phrase "I'm a victim of an automobile accident" would be of no concern in regards to the positions that MushroomTrip and Veritas are both so eloquently holding ( ), yet clearly we are not discussing that definition of the word suffering, when we refer to the word victim. We are talking about psychological pain and distress, aren't we?
Now, what benefit does it serve to oneself to affirm to oneself that one is an individual that is experiencing psychological pain and distress, especially when one is the sole determining factor as to whether or not one experiences that? Let us not confuse physical pain with mental suffering - the specific processes that result in the experience of physical pain are well understood, simple cause and effect. With mental suffering, who the individual is and how they respond to reality determines whether or not they will mentally suffer (referring to, again, the apt definition of the term), and, if so, to what extent.
And, not to mention, once again, some individuals derive pleasure from physical pain! Some people might actually enjoy being smacked around with bats. Pain, of course, is simply a neurological signal - the experience of that signal relies upon the nature of the individual for it to be determined.
I feel compassion for those who suffer. I've suffered. I'm not a victim. This isn't denial; this is choosing who I am, the most profound ability we human beings have. When one realizes that one is bringing suffering upon themself, why continue the practice? It is perfectly understandable that most individuals are not aware to the point at which this begins to be possible, and the upmost compassion to them. Compassion for all, in all ways. The fact that they suffer does not change the true nature of suffering, nor does it prevent me from realizing it, accepting a path of utilizing the understanding to better myself and my experience of reality, or for myself to speak for the realization, in the face of the realization that most do choose, quite unawarely, to suffer.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Ahimsa
µdose



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Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: Lion]
#7400185 - 09/12/07 10:25 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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true and thanks for this beautifull insight
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: Taharka]
#7400217 - 09/12/07 10:38 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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We don't have too much control over what we feel in the first place.
Yes, we do, in fact. This control is an ability which must be developed, much like muscular strength, but we all have the potential to manage our own emotions skillfully. This is exactly why I see labeling oneself as a victim is detrimental, because it permanently defines the person as not responsible. The truth of the matter is that someone who is attacked is not responsible for the event, and 100% responsible for what they do afterwards.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: Taharka]
#7400268 - 09/12/07 11:00 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Taharka said:
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Icelander said: No way Jose. We do no disservice to anyone by ignoring them. Each person is responsible for how they feel about what happens to them.
You can't seriously mean that, no matter the horrible circumstances on finds oneself in, one is entirely responsible for how one feels about them. Every day people are tortured, for example, victims of man's depravity and cruelty to his fellow man. And you're telling me that the victim alone is responsible for not being happy about his state? Then there are the victims of genocide, those of famine, those of preventable diseases. Things that we as a race could put an end to if we so desired. And you say that the people who suffer alone are responsible for how they feel, and that those of us who have it better needn't feel even a little bit guilty about the things we take for granted that they'll never have?
And especially that you would say this about feeling, about emotion. We don't have too much control over what we feel in the first place.
I'm talking about emotionally ignoring them. If someone is suffering somewhere in the world I am doing them no disservice by ignoring that. If I was you would have to take it to the extreme and I would be responsible for being aware and thinking about each and every bit of suffering in the world. That would have no effect except to ruin my life experience. See what I mean? I can choose to help anyone I want but I am not responsible for being aware of or thinking about anyones experience but my own.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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cloudtripper
Knock and theDoor will open
Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 175
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Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: fireworks_god]
#7403151 - 09/12/07 11:24 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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And how does one determine if they are a victim or not? What is the standard by which one judges whether or not one is a victim?
If someone is raped, clearly they are a victim of someone elses actions. Clearly they are a victim.
-------------------- Always come back again. Never come back the same.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: cloudtripper]
#7403219 - 09/12/07 11:49 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Clearly you're talking about a definition, not about what a person really has inside. Tell me, if the term of victim would simply not exist in any dictionary, what would you call someone who had an unfortunate experience?  Why should we bring more suffering into our lives, by identifying with that characterization? It just feels so ritualistic and superstitious...
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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PoppyRider
Mad Scientist


Registered: 09/07/07
Posts: 152
Loc: Orange County, Ca
Last seen: 16 years, 3 months
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Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7403258 - 09/13/07 12:11 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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im confused...why do you even bring this up?? are you pissed at someone or something haha
-------------------- you make every thing grooooovyy
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
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Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: PoppyRider]
#7403282 - 09/13/07 12:21 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Why do I even bring what up? From what I gather, this is an open discussion, and I was arguing about specific points, for specific reasons, which are not hard to detect.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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PoppyRider
Mad Scientist


Registered: 09/07/07
Posts: 152
Loc: Orange County, Ca
Last seen: 16 years, 3 months
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Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7403503 - 09/13/07 01:29 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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yea the ass hole in me kinda came out there...sorry dude sometimes it happends
-------------------- you make every thing grooooovyy
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: PoppyRider]
#7403544 - 09/13/07 01:51 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Correction: dudette
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