|
Viveka
refutation bias


Registered: 10/21/02
Posts: 4,061
Last seen: 7 years, 3 months
|
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: MushmanTheManic]
#7393572 - 09/10/07 08:09 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
I think the overarching point, which some have already made, is the uselesness of external definition. The only benefit someone can achieve from taking the victim posture is either the empathy, or its uglier cousin sympathy, of others or a temporary ego gratification.
Quote:
Unfortunately, I know more than one person who has been raped (one out of seven women is raped in their lifetime.) The ones that feel like the victim of a crime do far better than the ones that don't.
Do far better in what sense? You mean they’ve gone farther in addressing their unresolved psychology or they’ve found a stance of power within their victimhood that affords them a certain control, even if subtly, over others?
There’s a difference between not identifying oneself as a victim and believing that everything bad that happens is one’s own fault. The stark truth is that shit happens. Our choice is whether to identify ourselves as someone who was wronged by the world, or to accept that many things happen in the world that suck and they happen to all sorts of people all the time. Victimhood is an ego trip and it’s a choice. You can’t always choose what happens to you but you can choose how you respond to it and how you integrate the experience into your psyche, you know the drill.
|
cloudtripper
Knock and theDoor will open
Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 175
|
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: Veritas]
#7394615 - 09/11/07 12:13 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Let's take the example of being run over by a drunk driver--will the hospital's Emergency Room turn away the injured party if they fail to say "I am a victim of a drunk driver"? If they seek counseling later in order to resolve their feelings about the event, will the counselor reject them as a client if they do not claim victim status?
They are seeking help because they are a victim, it dosn' matter if they say it or not, what matters is that they are recognized as such.
For someone to turn around and to deny them of that is more than an insult. For some one to say "Just get over it" ... look this Nun did, is more than an insult. It's not so simplistic.
I also see comments suggesting that everyone is responsible for what happens to them, which I am disagreeing with.
-------------------- Always come back again. Never come back the same.
|
cloudtripper
Knock and theDoor will open
Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 175
|
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: MushmanTheManic]
#7394639 - 09/11/07 12:20 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Unfortunately, I know more than one person who has been raped (one out of seven women is raped in their lifetime.) The ones that feel like the victim of a crime do far better than the ones that don't.
Precisely, recognition that they are a victim and that they are not at fault is an important part of any recovery.
If someone is raped or bashed they need to accept the truth that they where a victim and they need other people to accept that truth, i.e that something terrible did happen to them and that it was through the actions of someone else and not a fault of their own.
I'm saddened by the lack of compassion of some people.
-------------------- Always come back again. Never come back the same.
|
fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
|
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: cloudtripper]
#7394671 - 09/11/07 12:36 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
cloudtripper said: For someone to turn around and to deny them of that is more than an insult. For some one to say "Just get over it" ... look this Nun did, is more than an insult. It's not so simplistic.
Why isn't it so simplistic? Why shouldn't it be so simplistic?
Quote:
I also see comments suggesting that everyone is responsible for what happens to them, which I am disagreeing with.
No, you are not seeing that; you are seeing people stating that everyone is responsible for how they manage themselves in regards to what happens to them. Establishing for oneself an identity as someone who is still suffering after the event has already transpired serves no purpose but to inflict further suffering upon oneself.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
|
cloudtripper
Knock and theDoor will open
Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 175
|
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: fireworks_god]
#7394689 - 09/11/07 12:43 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Why isn't it so simplistic? Why shouldn't it be so simplistic?
Because such events have more of an effect than a sratch on the skin. It takes time to heal. The damage is real, the pain from the damage is real, the healing takes as long or longer than a physical healing and is more complex. If someone break a leg, do you expect them to walk normally ? If someone looses a leg do you expect them to ever walk normally again ?
-------------------- Always come back again. Never come back the same.
|
fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
|
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: cloudtripper]
#7394709 - 09/11/07 12:57 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Do they? I think the individual determines how much time it takes to heal - we aren't talking about a broken leg here.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
|
cloudtripper
Knock and theDoor will open
Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 175
|
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: fireworks_god]
#7394740 - 09/11/07 01:13 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Do they? I think the individual determines how much time it takes to heal
The damage determines how long and even if the _victim_ will heal, along with the level of support and understanding they might or might not receive.
Quote:
- we aren't talking about a broken leg here
No, you can see a broken leg can't you. Physiological damage is just as real and the damage is just as real. Just as you cannot reasonably expect someone who has a broken leg to just get over it, you cannot reasonably expect someone who has been damaged physiologically to just get over it, to do so might result in them never getting over it properly ... walking with a limp for the rest of their lives.
-------------------- Always come back again. Never come back the same.
|
fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
|
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: cloudtripper]
#7394753 - 09/11/07 01:17 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
cloudtripper said: The damage determines how long and even if the _victim_ will heal, along with the level of support and understanding they might or might not receive.
Yet the individual determines the damage done.
Quote:
Physiological damage is just as real and the damage is just as real. Just as you cannot reasonably expect someone who has a broken leg to just get over it, you cannot reasonably expect someone who has been damaged physiologically to just get over it, to do so might result in them never getting over it properly ... walking with a limp for the rest of their lives.
No one has promoted "just getting over it", so I don't know what you are talking about.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
|
cloudtripper
Knock and theDoor will open
Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 175
|
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: fireworks_god]
#7395227 - 09/11/07 06:04 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Yet the individual determines the damage done.
What ? You mean the individual who carried out the attack .. I hope. I hope your note saying that a victim of a viscous crime determines how much damage they receive from the attack. If that was the case you would be saying that people who have been attacked can somehow control the amount of damage the attack has done to them.
A car accident is an accident, I'd assume the mental damage would often be far less than that from a viscous, intentional, overpowering attack from a fellow human.
Quote:
No one has promoted "just getting over it", so I don't know what you are talking about.
In the story of the nun being raped that is exactly the idea that has been given. She immediately got over the rape and didn't even bother to report it to police it seems.
Blocking something out is not getting over it. Accepting it is.
You are the one that asked why it wasn't that simple to just "get over it" your previous post. Sounds like you where the one arguing the case to just get over it to me ?
-------------------- Always come back again. Never come back the same.
|
fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
|
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: cloudtripper]
#7395319 - 09/11/07 06:53 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
cloudtripper said: I hope your note saying that a victim of a viscous crime determines how much damage they receive from the attack. If that was the case you would be saying that people who have been attacked can somehow control the amount of damage the attack has done to them.
Um, yes, that is what I am saying. What is so difficult to understand regarding that? Human beings make decisions as to who they will be and how they will interpret and emotionally respond to reality.
Quote:
In the story of the nun being raped that is exactly the idea that has been given. She immediately got over the rape and didn't even bother to report it to police it seems.
So what? That's how she chose to respond to the situation. It sounds like she made the choice to accept reality as it unfolded and chose to move on and live her life regardless. I fail to comprehend what is so detrimental about that.
Quote:
Blocking something out is not getting over it. Accepting it is.
Obviously, and obviously she simply accepted it. It doesn't mean she has to accept the identity of being a victim.
Quote:
You are the one that asked why it wasn't that simple to just "get over it" your previous post. Sounds like you where the one arguing the case to just get over it to me ?
Asking a question isn't arguing a case.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
|
cloudtripper
Knock and theDoor will open
Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 175
|
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: fireworks_god]
#7395425 - 09/11/07 07:51 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
So what? That's how she chose to respond to the situation. It sounds like she made the choice to accept reality as it unfolded and chose to move on and live her life regardless. I fail to comprehend what is so detrimental about that.
It is simply not realistic and it gives the idea that a victim of a violent crime can control the effect that it has on them. That's dreamworld, not reality. As I said, psychological damage is just as real is physical damage, just as you can't choose not to be damaged physically you can't choose to not be damage psychologically.
It was only a few days ago I was watching a movie on Tibet and saw a devoted Buddhist monk completely break into tears when he tried to recount his time in a Chinese prison and the terrible treatment he received.
Just as you can't just walk off with a broken leg, you don't just walk away from a violent crime committed against you without psychological damage. If you did then it would be somewhat pathetic, akin to someone walking on their freshly broken leg. Dreamworld stuff and dangerous when it comes to empathizing with such victims.
-------------------- Always come back again. Never come back the same.
Edited by cloudtripper (09/11/07 08:00 AM)
|
Bard
Ultrahuman


Registered: 09/10/01
Posts: 172
Last seen: 4 years, 4 months
|
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: Lion]
#7395428 - 09/11/07 07:52 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
What if we are all victims. Every time. Victims of life. We are born crying, don't we? We just learn to tell ourselves that it doesn't hurt that much. And that we like it. We can learn to like almost anything.
-------------------- So dreaming let's you know reality exists.
I don't belive. I fear.
|
cloudtripper
Knock and theDoor will open
Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 175
|
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: Bard]
#7395437 - 09/11/07 07:57 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Well the first noble Truth, Life is suffering.
-------------------- Always come back again. Never come back the same.
|
shakercee
Atheistic Mystic



Registered: 04/08/07
Posts: 606
Loc: Here and there
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
|
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: cloudtripper]
#7395531 - 09/11/07 08:52 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Well the first noble Truth, Life is suffering.
No, it is the first untruth.
-------------------- Pray, v.: To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy - Ambrose Bierce Medical science has confirmed what the male world has known intuitively for millenia: that scratching your ass is a great aid to complex thinking. Its God's responsibility to forgive the terrorist organizations such as Jaish, Lashkar etc. Its our responsibility to arrange the meeting between them and god." - Indian Armed Forces "Hey Monkey!! Get Funky" - Tarzan and Jane
|
Taharka
The Root of the Problem

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 686
|
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: Lion]
#7395574 - 09/11/07 09:15 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
In order to be happy we need to, for a time, ignore the suffering of others, and by doing so we are doing them a great disservice. No doubt someone will say that wallowing in despair does nothing to help those who suffer. Still, can we truly be happy without at least temporarily turning a blind eye to the suffering of other sentient beings? Just a thought.
|
MushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
|
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: Veritas]
#7395740 - 09/11/07 10:25 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
When I consider my circumstances, past and present, it seems more powerful to frame events as opportunities to respond. Victimhood is a passive reaction to difficult circumstances, and that approach does not work for me.
Why does 'victimhood' - whatever that means - necessarily cause the victim to become passive? Do you think people who consider themselves victims of a crime do not try to respond to that crime at all, during and after? Why is victim such a horrible thing to consider oneself?
If you've been intentionally attacked and injured by someone, then not considering yourself a victim is just denying reality. Whatever you decide to do after you've become a victim is up to you.
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: Bard]
#7395781 - 09/11/07 10:47 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Bard said: What if we are all victims. Every time. Victims of life. We are born crying, don't we? We just learn to tell ourselves that it doesn't hurt that much. And that we like it. We can learn to like almost anything.
What if we are victims? The question is, what way of thinking about that will bring the best life experience.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
|
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: MushmanTheManic]
#7395788 - 09/11/07 10:49 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
It is passive because it involves defining oneself by someone else's actions. When one says "I am a victim," it does not describe any quality or action which is within one's personal control. It also brings the event into the present tense, rather than defining it as something which occurred in the past & is now over. To me, this term has connotations of learned helplessness, and THAT is what is so horrible about it. 
How is it denying reality to reject negative terminology? It might be denying reality if I said "I have never been attacked by anyone," but one can fully accept reality without accepting a particular means of framing events.
An analogy which comes to mind:
When I was born, it was accurate to call me a newborn. The same is true of everyone. If I object to being called a newborn 35 years later, am I denying reality?
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: Taharka]
#7395790 - 09/11/07 10:50 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
In order to be happy we need to, for a time, ignore the suffering of others, and by doing so we are doing them a great disservice.
No way Jose. We do no disservice to anyone by ignoring them. Each person is responsible for how they feel about what happens to them.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
BlueCoyote
Beyond



Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 16 days
|
Re: One of the biggest fallacies which many of us believe [Re: Icelander]
#7395862 - 09/11/07 11:14 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Sure, but is it healthy to have good feeling about something bad happening to oneself if there's no way out ? Else one ever will perceive unavoidable and unconquerable 'BAD' as suffering. Else is delusion. So giving them a chance out of unconquerable and unavoidable 'bad' may bring an end to their suffering. I think, oneself would be very happy if that happens to oneself. This happiness can be reflected back to the helper, of course.
|
|